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Dragon Ball Super Anime: Fused Zamasu and the Rival Danger Scale

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Thanks for the response. As I said, I'll be pretty busy for the rest of tonight, so I probably won't be giving a full response until tomorrow. That said, it's appreciated
 
CloverDragon03 said:
which makes sense given that even when his immortality was destabilizing, he wasn't taking much damage from the Saiyans
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He took enough damage to be destabilized in the first place. Moreover, Fusion Zamasu is half of Goku Black, and part of being Goku Black is possessing "a body that can infinitely increase in strength", which is demonstrated by Black time and time again after receiving damage. His mortal half mutated and hypertrophied, his aura resembled that of Super Saiyan Rosé to a tee, and his entire body gigantified, which is a sign of heightened strength.

Oh, and anger. Saiyan bodies love that.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
He took enough damage to be destabilized in the first place. Moreover, Fusion Zamasu is half of Goku Black, and part of being Goku Black is possessing "a body that can infinitely increase in strength", which is demonstrated by Black time and time again after receiving damage. His mortal half mutated and hypertrophied, his aura resembled that of Super Saiyan Rosé to a tee, and his entire body gigantified, which is a sign of heightened strength.

Oh, and anger. Saiyan bodies love that.
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Okay can I say this:

If this thread doesn't go through, can we please have Fusion Zamasu's first key as "3-A, higher with Light of Justice"

Like I feel like that makes sense if we're going by the idea that he got stronger. Also I agree his Power Stressed form is stronger, but not so much Light of Justice state.
 
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Chariot190 said:
Others, as in literally everyone? Like "other people"? This is a non-argument, ya gotta prove "others" is specifically just a very small subset of characters and not being used like, the word is usually used.
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This is too general. Also, the only ones that actually approached (and reached) Fused Zamasu in power were Vegito Blue and Sword of Hope Trunks (as Fused Zamasu was still much stronger than the trio of Saiyans). Something else supporting the fact that it's as specific as I'm saying is that this issue of V-Jump was released on November 21, 2016. At this time, the most recent episode of Dragon Ball Super was the final episode of the Future Trunks Arc (with Infinite Zamasu and all that), having released on November 20th.

Why would it be a general statement if we've had two characters approach Fused Zamasu's power by this point? And well... neither of them are listed on the Rival Danger Scale
Chariot190 said:
That is untrue, they barely even got to the point of destroying the room they were in, it was escalating, and they stopped it. Vegeta didn't witness the end of the escalation, aka the 2-C feat, ergo, Vegeta saying funny line doesn't implicate Zamasu scaling to Beerus, and if it did, it'd be contradicted down the line anyway.
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First off, it's not as if Beerus and Champa were getting stronger throughout the fight. They're never shown to be able to do that. As such, they were letting off that 2-C level energy from the onset of the fight, and Vegeta felt that. Classic case of AP =/= DC
Chariot190 said:
And Vegeta's line has absolutely nothing to do with the OP statement, they're two separate things and no, it doesn't support the OP as the OP isn't even from people who have a say to begin with.
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It does in fact support the OP, as both prove Fused Zamasu's superiority over Beerus.

Slightly related, but it'd still be impressive for Jiren and Broly to be superior to Beerus, as those two are standalone mortals, while Fused Zamasu is a fusion between two gods.

As far as I can tell, both the anime and the manga are written by Toriyama, and not only does V-Jump post things like this as official information (which they would continue to do going into the Universe Survival Saga), but it's the editorial board in particular, which reviews the material before publishing it. This means they'd have an understanding of the sheer threat level of these characters. And even then, it's said that the editorial department is only giving their degrees of danger, so while this could extend to the statements, it's not guaranteed.
Nullflowerblush said:
He took enough damage to be destabilized in the first place. Moreover, Fusion Zamasu is half of Goku Black, and part of being Goku Black is possessing "a body that can infinitely increase in strength", which is demonstrated by Black time and time again after receiving damage. His mortal half mutated and hypertrophied, his aura resembled that of Super Saiyan Rosé to a tee, and his entire body gigantified, which is a sign of heightened strength.

Oh, and anger. Saiyan bodies love that.
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Goku Black has the Saiyan Physiology, yes, but his corrupted state was never stated to be an increase in strength. He can grow stronger, but this state wasn't explicitly noted to be a power boost. The Super Saiyan Rose aura and the mutated arm are the result of his mortal and immortal halves conflicting with each other, and that's all we're told.

The only form where he explicitly gets stronger is his Power Stressed gigantified form, as such forms do such a thing (though apparently, much like other such forms, at the cost of speed since he couldn't evade Vegito Blue's attacks anymore)

In addition to all this, the producer of Dragon Ball Super made a statement prior to the Universe Survival Saga stating that Goku Black is the second strongest individual fighter, only behind Beerus. Though I won't link this yet since I'm still getting it translated and will post the statement once the translation's done
 
That wasn't the point. The point was that "V-Jump does not even work on the Super anime, Toei Animation does", and that the Danger Scale was "the V-Jump editorial department’s own personal degrees of danger".
 
Well V-Jump is a manga publishing company, so yeah, but their comments are specifically on the anime. In addition, wouldn't the Danger Scale's publication mean it can be taken as official information?

They publish the manga, yes, but keep in mind that the manga and the anime follow the same script
 
Why would that automatically make the information valid? Yes, the Danger Scale is "official information", but that information is still the personal rankings from the V-Jump editorial staff, their personal views, and not fact whatsoever.
 
Even with all that, this is specifically about the danger rankings and not the comments below them (where Fused Zamasu's statement comes from), the former of which I've already said to not be a part of my argument.

Also the editorial board would be some of the most knowledgeable on these characters to begin with, alongside Toriyama himself. Toei is simply an animation studio, compared to the editorial board which actually oversees the story itself
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Even with all that, this is specifically about the danger rankings and not the comments below them (where Fused Zamasu's statement comes from), the former of which I've already said to not be a part of my argument.
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And what the hell makes any of the comments valid when the entire article is practically worthless?
CloverDragon03 said:
Also the editorial board
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Of V-Jump.
CloverDragon03 said:
Toei is simply an animation studio
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Yes.
And animation studios produce animations. Do you think Toei's only job is to draw pictures?
They write, they voice, they edit, they supervise, they create music, they direct, they produce. All of the writers and the directors and the supervisors on the Super staff operate under Toei.
CloverDragon03 said:
compared to the editorial board which actually oversees the story itself
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V-Jump is a manga magazine that primarily specializes in video games and card games. Very few manga are serialized in V-Jump, and V-Jump has zero control over the contents of the manga serialized. The editorial board exists to edit the primary contents of the magazine, which is updates on video games, not to oversee the manga serialized; the writers and editors behind the manga oversee the manga.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
And what the hell makes any of the comments valid when the entire article is practically worthless?
Click to expand...
Okay first off, please chill out, I'm just trying to get a handle on this (especially since I don't really scale Dragon Ball too much, this is one of the few threads I've made on the verse). It doesn't matter how ridiculous you think I'm sounding, the aggression really isn't necessary or productive.

Second, I figured it'd at least have some value given that it comes from V-Jump's editorial board of all things. Though as I'll get to later, I think what you're saying actually makes sense.
Nullflowerblush said:
Yes.
And animation studios produce animations. Do you think Toei's only job is to draw pictures?
They write, they voice, they edit, they supervise, they create music, they direct, they produce. All of the writers and the directors and the supervisors on the Super staff operate under Toei.
Click to expand...
Well this is a bit of an oversight on my part. My mind thought "animation studio" and thought "well that's animation, not writing"
Nullflowerblush said:
V-Jump is a manga magazine that primarily specializes in video games and card games. Very few manga are serialized in V-Jump, and V-Jump has zero control over the contents of the manga serialized. The editorial board exists to edit the primary contents of the magazine, which is updates on video games, not to oversee the manga serialized; the writers and editors behind the manga oversee the manga.
Click to expand...
This full explanation on what V-Jump does and doesn't do helps, yes, so thanks for that. V-Jump's editorial board focuses on the magazine itself, not on the few manga serialized in it, that's what I'm getting from this.

So the legitimacy of the Rival Danger Scale is definitely a lot lower now, I can agree to that. But, would it still be wrong of me to note (as someone had before) Vegeta's comment of how Fused Zamasu let off energy unlike any he'd felt before, while having felt the energy of Beerus and Champa's brief battle that would've resulted in the end of Universes 6 and 7 had it gone on? In addition, there's still that statement from the DBS anime's producer about Goku Black being the second strongest individual fighter, only behind Beerus, prior to the Tournament of Power Arc (though again, I'm waiting for this to be translated). If Goku Black is the second strongest individual fighter, that would speak to Fused Zamasu's strength, right?
 
Honestly, at this point the validity of statements is irrelevant. The main thing in need of discussion is whether Zamasu scales above BeerusChampa clash using Vegeta’s statement.

I doubt that translating Goku Black statement would do anything though. I bet it’ll be “most skilled” or smt.
 
MrKerf said:
Honestly, at this point the validity of statements is irrelevant. The main thing in need of discussion is whether Zamasu scales above BeerusChampa clash using Vegeta’s statement.
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Yeah, I think that's the most important thing at the moment
MrKerf said:
I doubt that translating Goku Black statement would do anything though. I bet it’ll be “most skilled” or smt.
Click to expand...
We'll see. I'll get back with y'all on that statement once I get a translation
 
Disagree

DB is a series that likes to make stupid statements about how strong the current antagonist is only to be false at the end. The anime coming back and adapting the manga should fix some problems in the scaling chain.

Jiren
Anime: Has a statement that he has more power than a God of Destruction.

Manga: He doesn't waste movement at all while fighting and not much else.

Super Hero: He actually didn't have much more power than Goku and Vegeta in the TOP. He just has perfect control over his energy.

Broly
Anime: According to Goku he may be even stronger than Beerus.

Spoiler Warning
Manga: He was confirmed by Whis to have been surpassed by Post Moro arc UI Goku and SSBE Vegeta as Whis didn't know a mortal stronger than them in the universe when asked. SSBE Vegeta is much weaker than 73Moro and the dragon ball wish made Granolah unquestionably stronger than every mortal in U7 including Broly. Then there's UE Vegeta, Two Eye Granolah, Gas, Controlled Gas, True Ultra Instinct Goku, Zombie Gas, and then Black Frieza that can and has one shotted everyone in this list.

Beerus

Anime: Vegito may be stronger than Beerus, Vegito is equal to Gogeta according to a magazine, Jiren has a statement that he is stronger than all the Gods of Destruction in a magazine, Goku thinks that Broly might be stronger than Beerus.

Spoiler Warning
Manga: Piccolo thinks that Goku and Vegeta fusing may not work against 73Moro, Beerus effortlessly beat Post Moro arc Vegeta, was going to quickly beat Planet Moro who perfect UI Goku couldn't beat without help, apparently has a technique that rivals Ultra Instinct fully mastered that allows him to get infinitely stronger and is only limited by his fighting spirit, surprised post Moro arc Goku by just showing off a tiny bit of his power, Goku and Vegeta are hiding Broly from Frieza in Beerus's planet after getting one shotted by Black Frieza at the end of the Granolah arc. Everyone is still complete fodder to Beerus and Goku still has a long way to go before he can rival Beerus according to Toyotarou.
 
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MrKerf said:
The main thing in need of discussion is whether Zamasu scales above BeerusChampa clash using Vegeta’s statement.
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The scene never implies that Beerus and Champa had already reached the point where they would destroy the two universes, only that, had they continued further, they would have been guaranteed to cause universal annihilation. In fact, according to the original Japanese dialogue...
Whis: 破壊神と破壊神が戦うなどあってはならないこと。
► "There should be no such thing as a fight between a God of Destruction and a God of Destruction."
Vados: それが　第６宇宙と　第７宇宙の消滅を意味することくらいご存じのはずです。
► "You at least know that would mean the disappearance of the 6th and 7th universes."
Click to expand...
The kanji used to describe when the destruction would have occurred is "はずです", which translates into "be supposed or expected to (do); be sure to (do); ought to (do)", further suggesting that they had yet to reach the point of endangering their universes. Moreover...
CloverDragon03 said:
Classic case of AP =/= DC
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...yes, Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity are typically inequivalent, as per the Wiki's standards, but in this case, the range and scope of their sheer destructive capabilities when allowed to spiral into combat has been displayed on-screen before, and said scope is significantly superior to that of Episode 28, which adds greater credence to the idea that, yes, Beerus and Champa were warming up and were going escalate their powers to the point that they would destroy their two universes. In Episode 28, the two were exchanging blows in an attempt to one-up each other, and in Episode 70, they were exchanging blows with the intent to do harm, which is represented by the extent of their collateral.

Which is to say that Vegeta never sensed Beerus and Champa release enough power to endanger the two universes, meaning that Fusion Zamasu cannot be reasonably scaled to 2-C.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
The scene never implies that Beerus and Champa had already reached the point where they would destroy the two universes, only that, had they continued further, they would have been guaranteed to cause universal annihilation. In fact, according to the original Japanese dialogue...

The kanji used to describe when the destruction would have occurred is "はずです", which translates into "be supposed or expected to (do); be sure to (do); ought to (do)", further suggesting that they had yet to reach the point of endangering their universes. Moreover...

...yes, Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity are typically inequivalent, as per the Wiki's standards, but in this case, the range and scope of their sheer destructive capabilities when allowed to spiral into combat has been displayed on-screen before, and said scope is significantly superior to that of Episode 28, which adds greater credence to the idea that, yes, Beerus and Champa were warming up and were going escalate their powers to the point that they would destroy their two universes. In Episode 28, the two were exchanging blows in an attempt to one-up each other, and in Episode 70, they were exchanging blows with the intent to do harm, which is represented by the extent of their collateral.

Which is to say that Vegeta never sensed Beerus and Champa release enough power to endanger the two universes, meaning that Fusion Zamasu cannot be reasonably scaled to 2-C.
Click to expand...
I'll address this all at once since I have very similar responses for each individual point so I may as well lump it all together.

You agree that AP =/= DC, yet you use DC as evidence that they were just warming up in Episode 28. Even going by this example, though, they were in an enclosed space, rather than out in the open where the fight's effects were on full display. We even see them corroding the ground just from their fight alone, and much like the later fight, they were promptly stopped by Whis and Vados. Also, given the beef they have with each other, I find it unreasonable for them to hold back to begin with.

Lastly, their universe destruction feat in Episode 70 was also happening overtime, much like the Episode 28 feat. Were they holding back there too? No, it's just that the feat would happen if the fight continued, much like in Episode 28. These examples are actually very equivalent to one another. I just believe we have no reason to assume they were holding back in Episode 28.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Well that's more so because of how it started. First they were shoving each other, then they each threw a punch, then it became an all-out brawl
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Even after they began delivering blows, their flurry of attacks grew faster, and the tornado around them formed and spun around more ferociously.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Even after they began delivering blows, their flurry of attacks grew faster, and the tornado around them formed and spun around more ferociously.
Click to expand...
This is only for a brief moment. They hit max speed in less than a second, so I'd hardly consider that noteworthy. Hell, the tornado hadn't even formed yet, only forming after they'd sped up
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Actually, I think Goku from the Battle of Gods Saga should be 2-C, since the Danger Scale stated that "Beerus is interested in the Super Saiyan God, with power on par with his own".
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But I mean...we know that isn't true.


In relation to the thread, I'm neutral, but leaning towards disagreeing. Zamasu got ****** over twice by characters that scale nowhere near the level of a God of Destruction
 
Tarang123 said:
In relation to the thread, I'm neutral, but leaning towards disagreeing. Zamasu got ****** over twice by characters that scale nowhere near the level of a God of Destruction
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He wasn't really damaged in either of those cases. He was more pissed off than anything
 
Tarang123 said:
Half his face was gone, and he was strained both times. He was clearly trying as well. It doesn't really make much sense for him to scale above Beerus
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The first instance was a combined attack, and the second was from Goku using more power than he could reasonably muster (as showcased by the attack taking out his arms)

Also, Zamasu was effortlessly beating Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks just prior
 
Tarang123 said:
They clearly got stronger. We see a contrast between their level earlier and their level after
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That makes no sense though. Yes, Saiyans grow as they fight, but the Father-Son Galick Gun, for instance, was in the literal same sequence where Trunks got clapped
 
Tarang123 said:
Isn't this literally why higher amounts of ki can cause physical damage to the environment around them? Like cracking the ground or whatever? It's not specific to God ki
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Looks like Ki emanates a powerful vibration, but warping the weather and causing the entire planet to tremor do not appear to be the result of an intense pressure. In fact, I believe the only time "pressure" is ever mentioned in relation to Ki and when describing the feeling of Super Saiyan Blue's godly energy, being clear, of perfect quality, and of extreme concentration.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
That makes no sense though. Yes, Saiyans grow as they fight, but the Father-Son Galick Gun, for instance, was in the literal same sequence where Trunks got clapped
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It's not supposed to make sense. Super is infamous for its bad powerscaling. Zamasu didn't just lower the effectiveness of his attacks. They got stronger and managed to push through them. We know this cause he was outright surprised at their attempts
 
Tarang123 said:
It's not supposed to make sense. Super is infamous for its bad powerscaling. Zamasu didn't just lower the effectiveness of his attacks. They got stronger and managed to push through them. We know this cause he was outright surprised at their attempts
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If it’s not supposed to make sense then why do we accept it?
 
KLOL506 said:
The mere fact that only Jiren and Jiren alone is hyped up to be that one being who is stronger than a God of Destruction.
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That is not an anti-feat. Jiren is a singular mortal, while Fused Zamasu is a fusion of two gods

Whis even phrases his description of Jiren as “a mortal that even a God of Destruction can’t defeat”
 
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