[DMC] Yamato/Nero Hax Removal

[Deagonx]

Currently, the sword Yamato has Resistance Negation and Power Nullification based on the claim that it nullified Nero's Resistance to Absorption when the Vicar stabbed Nero with it.

Nero's resistance seems to come from the Demon Physiology page which lists Low Tier demons (and up) as having Resistance to Absorption, noting:

Absorption: Demons are unaffected when the Demon World is consuming the Human World[59][60][61].

However, the scans don't support the claim. In the scans, the demon world is described as "replacing" the human world, it essentially spreading like a corruptive influence as it subsumes the human world, and this is occurring around Dante and Gilver as the fight is going on. "The Demon World is replacing yours. It will spread out from this nexus until finally everything is consumed."

Problematically... this isn't absorption under pretty much any interpretation I can imagine, and even if it were Dante and Gilver are not resisting anything, their environment is actively changing around them. So, arguably it should be removed from the page.

Now, where Nero and Yamato are concerned, Nero was grabbed by a large statue/golem which could absorb things into it. The Vicar controlling it can willfully control when things are absorbed into it, and where they come back out. The statue holds Nero in place until the Vicar stabs him with the sword Yamato, at which point he is absorbed. The reasoning goes that Nero was resisting the absorption ability until the sword stabbed him, which negated his resistance and allowed the statue to absorb him.

However, this is not accurate. In the story the Vicar directly says that he needs to combine the sword with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is), and that is the reason why the Vicar waited until stabbing Nero with the sword to have him absorbed into the statue, not because he needed to do so to overcome Nero's absorption resistance.

TL;DR: Nero never demonstrates a resistance and is not described as having one, Yamato never demonstrates negation and isn't described as being capable of it, Occam's Razor is that there's no resistance or resistance negation going on, as the sequence of events is already adequately accounted for by the fact that the Vicar needed to get Nero's blood on the sword first.

@Mr._Bambu @DarkGrath @Damage3245 @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Ultima_Reality @KingTempest

Agree: (6) DarkGrath, Mr._Bambu, Firestorm808, Maverick_Zero_X, Eficiente, Deagonx
Disagree: (4) Planck69, Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa
Neutral: (1) KingTempest

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I agree, obviously.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is a distinctly familiar topic of discussion. Was this not resolved last time, or are these abilities just hanging on?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I believe it was applied despite the arguments because there was a staff majority in favor of it.

 

[Deagonx]

This is a distinctly familiar topic of discussion. Was this not resolved last time, or are these abilities just hanging on?

The original thread passed in its entirety with no changes, despite my, your, and DG's objections. However, that thread covered a dozen or so abilities at once, but the Resistance to Absorption upon which the negation is based wasn't in question, but it is now, as I've had a closer look at the evidence and find it really unsupportive of resistance to absorption. I also think it will be helpful to examine the contested abilities in individual threads so that they stay relatively compact, making it easier for people to evaluate.

 

[Eficiente]

This is straightforward, I agree.

My sympathies to a mishandled thread.

 

[SYPHe5D]

The supporters will comment on this soon, I ask everyone to wait till then, also I find it strange that no one had bothered to tag the supporters on this.

 

[KingTempest]

I guess this works

 

[Eseseso]

Neutral on the thread for now, but the OP really should've pinged more supporters of the verse, particularly the people who made these revisions in the first place.

 

[Planck69]

Regardless of whether or not this passes, it'd have been preferred to have at least notified the members involved in the first place.

Anyway, I'm neutral to this for now. I was just notified to tell you that the supporters might take a while to show up, being busy IRL.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

"The Demon World is replacing yours. It will spread out from this nexus until finally everything is consumed."

“Good, scream!” Tony shrieked. “Scream somemore! Scream louder! Cry, you bastards!” He continuedis savage attack, felling the demons like trees. He was soenraged that he failed to notice the carpet of humancorpses beneath him. In a calmer mood, he might haverecognized the bodies as prominent members of the OzClub.If he had noticed, the obvious question of whohad murdered them might have crossed his mind. Butthoughts of his mission had been completely subsumedby fury.Something is wrong.The animated corpses he had encountered withGrue...The shapeless black shadows that had appearedwith Denvers' body...And now, fully formed enemies that hadtransformed the bank into a demon world...Something is beginning to consume the humanworld. Vol1. Page 94

The Nexus will not only replace the human world, its literally consuming it to create a new demon world. When Gilver says everything he means it. Each time he opens a nexus Dante or rather Tony (for the most part) needs to adapt to it in order to overcome it.

Now, as you guys know, absorb and consume are synonyms (and consume its even in the definition of absorb).

The voice got louder. Tony felt the darknessaround him grow more oppressive with each heartbeat.His keen eyes were playing tricks on him, revealingsinister faces in the darkness. The air grew increasinglyviscous, as though he were wading in caramel. Itbecame harder and harder to move.Tony sensed that he was no longer in the bank...or at least that the bank was no longer in the realm ofhumanity. Every shadow became harsh and demonic.Tony felt his breath grow heavier. His strengthebbed., The escalator stretched out in front of him; itlooked like it would go on forever.Suddenly, he found himself at the top, facing asimple fire exit. He sensed that he upper echelon of the92 If you like this book, buy it!Oz Club waited behind the door. - 92

” Gilver hefted his sword, seemingly recoveredfrom Dante's last attack. “This place is a cancerous blightto incomplete souls like you. Do you know why? Can youfeel instinctually?”“You tell me.” Dante sneered, but he clutched hissword for reassurance. His breathing and heart rate wererising, just like when he descended into the basementbelow the hospital. He had barely been able to reachJessica then, and he knew he would be unable to take onGilver now.Just holding his sword seemed to sap his strength,and every breath unleashed a new wave of fire into hislungs. Calm down. Calm down. I can't show himweakness. -181

> Each case occurred at a nexus between thenormal world and the demon realm. An ordinary humanwould never have been able to survive the uncannyconditions created by the interjection of that cancerousreality. That was why the sanatorium seemed to hollow.The closer I get to the demon world, the weakerI become. Tony hauled himself up by the hilt of hissword. I'll always be at a disadvantage. -133

As shown up there, the nexus saps Dante's (or rather Tony's) strength and that's despite his nature as some weird kind of human with Demon basis (as Tony isn't the same as Dante on a conceptual level) and even the last Nexus, which is the strongest of them all, could affect Dante for a while.

Now, demons are naturally immune to this as seen with Gilver and the other demons in the other nexus in the novel, but when a human gets caught they get absorbed in a literal sense:

But even more shocking was the tree itself. Athick lower branch had been carved into an exquisitestatue, its face twisted with pain.Tony recognized the likeness at once. Jessica.It wasn't a statue at all, he realized. It was Jessica,ensnared by eldritch forces and reshaped into a mockeryof life. Tony erupted into a blind rage.The monkey sensed the change in him. It donnedthe wooden mask and flung itself at Tony with blindingspeed.It never stood a chance.Tony slaughtered the creature within moments, itsblack blood spraying over his red coat. Tony didn't care.He raced back to the living statue, frantic.“Princess!”The thing that had once been Jessica twitched,regarding Tony with wooden eyes that somehow sproutedtears. A familiar voice wheezed strange sounds for amoment, unable to form words through the pain. The treegrew larger with each anguished movement, its black auraradiating farther. Jessica's suffering had become theplant's uncanny heartbeat.

...Buthis face quickly melted as he turned toward Jessica,sympathy and fear driving away the rage.“Does it hurt, Jessica?”There was no reply.The tiny hands that once made doria were nognarled roots. Her flesh had solidified into wood. The belllike clarity of her voice had been replaced by falteringwhimpers. But her unchanging eyes remained fixed onTony. He couldn't stand her tears.The tree pulsed with life, its black aura pushing outfarther with each breath. It would only be a day or twountil the demons' reality overwrote the city.

Humans basically get absorbed into it (or transformed into demons directly). Tony was able to resist this and demons are naturally immune to this.

TL;DR:

• The demon world DOES absorb stuff, it's made clear in the novel and, like Gilver mentions at some point, humans also get absorbed into it.
• Demons are naturally immune to that
• Tony had to adapt and resist that as he is not human nor demon and not even a hybrid at that point

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The original thread passed in its entirety with no changes, despite my, your, and DG's objections. However, that thread covered a dozen or so abilities at once, but the Resistance to Absorption upon which the negation is based wasn't in question, but it is now, as I've had a closer look at the evidence and find it really unsupportive of resistance to absorption. I also think it will be helpful to examine the contested abilities in individual threads so that they stay relatively compact, making it easier for people to evaluate.

If that's the case, I still agree, yeah. My sentiments from the last thread didn't change.

Also something something supporters, although it isn't necessary it would have been a niceness. Might as well be the... fourth, or fifth comment to mention this. I'll try to make another comment somewhere down below that mentions it again.

 

[Deagonx]

The Nexus will not only replace the human world, its literally consuming it to create a new demon world

Right, I read that. The "consumption" and the "replacement" are not additive, they are different ways of referring to the same event. In this event, as it is described in the scans, is the Demon World imposing itself upon the human world, like a spreading corruption more or less. Its an environmental change that happens around them mid fight. In your later scan, for instance:

It would only be a day or two until the demons' reality overwrote the city.

• The demon world DOES absorb stuff, it's made clear in the novel and, like Gilver mentions at some point, humans also get absorbed into it.
• Demons are naturally immune to that
• Tony had to adapt and resist that as he is not human nor demon and not even a hybrid at that point

What the scans you've posted primarily speak to is that the demon world has an oppressive/debuffing aura that affects humans and non-demons very greatly. None of the text is suggestive of "absorption." The fact that Jessica was transformed into a living statue doesn't mean the Demon World has some universal absorption that Demons have resistance to or that they would all be immune to the Savior's absorption.

So, I am not persuaded on that front. I think the reasoning is pretty far-fetched.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Right, I read that. The "consumption" and the "replacement" are not additive, they are different ways of referring to the same event. In this event, as it is described in the scans, is the Demon World imposing itself upon the human world, like a spreading corruption more or less. Its an environmental change that happens around them mid fight. In your later scan, for instance:

It would only be a day or two until the demons' reality overwrote the city.

What the scans you've posted primarily speak to is that the demon world has an oppressive/debuffing aura that affects humans and non-demons very greatly. None of the text is suggestive of "absorption." The fact that Jessica was transformed into a living statue doesn't mean the Demon World has some universal absorption that Demons have resistance to or that they would all be immune to the Savior's absorption.

So, I am not persuaded on that front. I think the reasoning is pretty far-fetched.

If you know what replacing here is referring to then you wouldn’t have been asking this question, it is all explained rather easily, especially with context so let’s start with this:
———————
-1 the demon world is actively consuming the human world here, as it is quoted within the scans that the physiology page had linked (as well as the others that were referenced) and dmc 2 comes back to reference this in its guidebook once again as you can see here and there is no other interpretation to this statement other than an actual consumption.
———————
-2 the replacing part is referring to everything coming back to the original existence since as you (or might not) know the demon world which is the primordial darkness, was the original state of existence, until the human world aka the ray of light was born out of it, as you can see here when Arius states that: everything will return to its original form, this is what replacing means in context, as in everything will return to its original form after the human world is consumed and all that remains will be the darkness itself.
-> I don’t think there is any other interpretation to these statements, as it can be explained quite easily, especially with more context in mind.

 

[Deagonx]

-> I don’t think there is any other interpretation to these statements, as it can be explained quite easily, especially with more context in mind.

I am aware of the scans you're referring to, however, I don't agree with your interpretation and I think the circumstances as described in the scans very clearly paint the picture of the demon realm gradually expanding into and subsuming the human world. Nothing that would qualify as absorption.

But, our stances are clear so we can agree to disagree.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I am aware of the scans you're referring to, however, I don't agree with your interpretation and I think the circumstances as described in the scans very clearly paint the picture of the demon realm gradually expanding into and subsuming the human world. Nothing that would qualify as absorption.

But, our stances are clear so we can agree to disagree.

I don’t really see how they Clearly paint the picture of your interpretation, but sure ig, agree to disagree.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the removal.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Kinda irrelevant, but can Deagonx vote?

 

[Dereck03]

Kinda irrelevant, but can Deagonx vote?

You mean own thread vote? If that's the case then yes.

Discussion Rules

It is understood that there may be instances where a staff member has expertise or knowledge of a particular series verse that allows them to confidently approve a revision on their own. It is possible for a staff member to initiate a content revision thread and have their vote counted.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

You mean own thread vote? If that's the case then yes.

Discussion Rules

Yeah, basically that. Thanks for clearing this up. Neutral as to the purpose of the thread.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Isn't the resistance to absorption also based on the Beastheads' assimilation, which demons resist?

 

[Deagonx]

It's not listed on either Nero's page or the Physiology page.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with the thread

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Isn't the resistance to absorption also based on the Beastheads' assimilation, which demons resist?

I wouldn't say they resist it, more like the Beastheads are designed to not work on them from the start.

“And in that moment, he and Dante both understood the reason why the Beastheads had never assimilated any of the demons that carried it. It was the same reason Dante was able to carve his way through the gel coffin and stand in front of Chen.”

“The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It’s like a power transformer for souls!”

But that's beside the point for right now.

 

[Deagonx]

I wouldn't say they resist it, more like the Beastheads' are designed to not work on them from the start.

But that's beside the point for right now.

Yeah that's incredibly direct. That's not resistance lol.

 

[Palito266]

I wouldn't say they resist it, more like the Beastheads are designed to not work on them from the start.

I'm extremely iffy on this and some other things that were said beforehand.
However i'm going to stand neutral in regards to this thread since it wasn't my idea and i never shared it among my other peers. I would also like to ask someone to ping the Supporters or at the very least wait their input on the thread please.

 

[Deagonx]

Multiple supporters have provided their input.

 

[Palito266]

Multiple supporters have provided their input.

I don't know many people here, but i counted 2 (not including neutral votes)

 

[Deagonx]

That's multiple. The thread can't be applied until two days from now at a minimum, so whoever else wants to provide their input is free to do so.

 

[Palito266]

That's multiple. The thread can't be applied until two days from now at a minimum, so whoever else wants to provide their input is free to do so.

Ah i see, not really used to the norms of this site all that much so that should be enough time.

 

[LordGinSama]

Demons are naturally immune to that

You make a lot of fair arguments but my thing is why are Demons being given resistance to that? Via virtue of being a demon wouldn't they naturally be uneffected by Demon World energy jazz? Like that's the one thing about DMC that's always made me confused.


Same thing with resisting abilities from the Beast-Heads which specifically target and effect humans. There's probably more evidence that I'm unable to find but this strikes me more as a caveat rather than a resistance. This also implies it only works on Humans (Once the soul of a human female.) This one also specifically mentions the effects are for humans are well. This one also says "most humans.", along with this one using the term "men."


Like I said there's probably something I'm overlooking for with the way some of these are worded makes it seem like Beast Heads and DWE only effects humans rather than Demons.

 

[Deagonx]

He spittin fr

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You make a lot of fair arguments but my thing is why are Demons being given resistance to that? Via virtue of being a demon wouldn't they naturally be uneffected by Demon World energy jazz? Like that's the one thing about DMC that's always made me confused.


Same thing with resisting abilities from the Beast-Heads which specifically target and effect humans. There's probably more evidence that I'm unable to find but this strikes me more as a caveat rather than a resistance. This also implies it only works on Humans (Once the soul of a human female.) This one also specifically mentions the effects are for humans are well. This one also says "most humans.", along with this one using the term "men."


Like I said there's probably something I'm overlooking for with the way some of these are worded makes it seem like Beast Heads and DWE only effects humans rather than Demons.

You and Earl brought this up in some downgrade threads if you remember. We already did this song and dance once

 

[KingNanaya]

We already did this song and dance once

or you could answer the question

 

[LordGinSama]

You and Earl brought this up in some downgrade threads if you remember.

I don't recall bringing this up in the past, and if i did i obviously forgotten the reason by now. Can't expect me to remember that long ago for something regarding fictional characters.

My guy i can barely remember what i did yesterday lol.

We already did this song and dance once

Maybe like years ago, doesn't really change the fact that I'm simply asking for clarification. Shouldn't be too difficult to give the reasoning.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

or you could answer the question

I'm too lazy for that, here are the threads in question

DMC - Serious hax downgrade.

Okay, so I left this verse alone for a bit and this happens? The amount of garbage in the profiles are something that don’t make a lot of sense, and I'll start first and foremost with this thread. This thread was made of as recently to get rid of Type 4 Acausality, and the reasons for it being...

vsbattles.com

DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

The 2nd thread, hopefully less chaotic this time. I will mainly be going over Dante, just cus i have only checked his profile so let's go. Volume 1 Dante 1) Deconstruction, the scan does not show dante having some sort of special bullet capable of doing this. And that is what happens to demons...

vsbattles.com

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm too lazy for that, here are the threads in question

DMC - Serious hax downgrade.

Okay, so I left this verse alone for a bit and this happens? The amount of garbage in the profiles are something that don’t make a lot of sense, and I'll start first and foremost with this thread. This thread was made of as recently to get rid of Type 4 Acausality, and the reasons for it being...

vsbattles.com

First of all, screw you Tony for reminding me that shit exists lol. Secondly those are old, outdated and doesn't talk about the Beast-Heads / DWE stuff.

DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

The 2nd thread, hopefully less chaotic this time. I will mainly be going over Dante, just cus i have only checked his profile so let's go. Volume 1 Dante 1) Deconstruction, the scan does not show dante having some sort of special bullet capable of doing this. And that is what happens to demons...

vsbattles.com

Same as above, Earl wasn't talking about The Beast-Heads / DWE resistances, and nobody is trying to read 15 pages of users going back and forth and derailing.

 

[Abstractions]

You and Earl brought this up in some downgrade threads if you remember. We already did this song and dance once

I would simply rehash the arguments, or at least source the exact counterarguments you refer to rather than the whole thread.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

 

[Deagonx]

You are welcome to provide your thoughts, but I would appreciate it if you first look over Tony and SYPHe5D's points and avoid repeating what they said.