Minor Nero Upgrade - DMC

[Mister6ame6]

Well, maybe a minor upgrade for Nero, so lets see how this goes:

Low Multiverse level: (After training for one month to get stronger to face Urizen once again, by simply killing demons, he was stated by Nico that thanks to her he have regained his lost strength from his DMC4 self and stated multiple times by V and Griffon to have become much more stronger than before to the point that they think he is way better warrior to fight against the Demon King Urizen in their places, including to also have all the requirements necessary to wield the Devil Sword Sparda, even also much better than the likes of Nightmare in their possession), much higher with the Devil Breakers (The Devil Breakers amplify Nero's innate demonic powers), eventually much higher (Nero was able to eventually grow strong enougth to break through Yamato's shield and slice Urizen's hand and took some few hits before he finally was defeated in combat while DMC5 Dante, even after some hours, DMC5 Nero on their first encounter, DMC5 Lady and DMC5 Trish was unable to even scratch the shield with their powers and weapons.)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Again,?

Minor DMC CTR

Well, there was a tiny thing i'm wanted to add so lets get to it. DMC5 Devil Breaker Nero Low Complex Multiverse level (After training for one month to get stronger to face Urizen once again, by simply killing demons, he was stated by Nico that thanks to her he have regained all his lost...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mister6ame6]

Again,?

Minor DMC CTR

Well, there was a tiny thing i'm wanted to add so lets get to it. DMC5 Devil Breaker Nero Low Complex Multiverse level (After training for one month to get stronger to face Urizen once again, by simply killing demons, he was stated by Nico that thanks to her he have regained all his lost...

vsbattles.com

Wait did i already did that?

nvm the thread died, plus i got better justification anyway XD

Also i thougth you retired from the wiki, glad to see you are back man

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Wait did i already did that?

nvm the thread died, plus i got better justification anyway XD

Also i thougth you retired from the wiki, glad to see you are back man

You did it like 5 times already with the same arguments.

Also I'm not gone, just busy with irl shit

 

[Random-Helper323]

Low Multiverse level: (After training for one month to get stronger to face Urizen once again, by simply killing demons, he was stated by Nico that thanks to her he have regained his lost strength from his DMC4 self

The scan you linked says he regained the strength to fight, not necessarily that he regained all his former strength.

and stated multiple times by V and Griffon to have become much more stronger than before to the point that they think he is way better warrior to fight against the Demon King Urizen in their places

He's stronger than V, yes. It's sort of like Piccolo promoting Gotenks as the best way to fight Buu, or Vegeta being put forth as their best chance against Final Form Frieza in the Namek Saga. It's not because he's ideal, it's because he's better than what else is available.

In fact, the details of who gets the Sparda runs contrary to Nero being above Dante, because the moment Dante is awake the idea of giving Nero the Sparda instead of him seems to be discarded.

including to also have all the requirements necessary to wield the Devil Sword Sparda, even also much better than the likes of Nightmare in their possession

Nightmare doesn't have fingers to wield Sparda with. Griffon also says that you need to be strong in mind and body to wield the Sparda, and Nightmare is basically mindless. What's more, you seem to need Sparda blood to wield the Sparda, which Nightmare lacks.

Nero was able to eventually grow strong enough to break through Yamato's shield and slice Urizen's hand and took some few hits before he finally was defeated in combat while DMC5 Dante, even after some hours, DMC5 Nero on their first encounter, DMC5 Lady and DMC5 Trish was unable to even scratch the shield with their powers and weapons.)

Okay, I'm actually open to this, the idea that Mid-DMC5 Nero had surpassed DMC4/Early DMC5 Dante. The problem is you always attempt to attach larger pushes, like Post-DMC5 Nero being above Post-DMC5 Dante and Vergil despite still struggling against a severely exhausted Vergil. When that's what you're doing, people are going to reject the starting premise as well as the end goal.

 

[Mister6ame6]

You did it like 5 times already with the same arguments.

Also I'm not gone, just busy with irl shit

Only two. so i still on the game, plus, more justification to show the feats = more reasons that i'm debate can happens

Ahh, i see, well that nice them

The scan you linked says he regained the strength to fight, not necessarily that he regained all his former strength.

Still means that he regained alot of his strength back, which according to V's and Griffon's statenebts is strong enougth to put him at least above V and his summons, which is still very impressive, considering that Nightmare is among them, considering there is nowhere for DMC4 Nero to be far more powerfull them his DMC5 self because of a dead Vergil being able to easely rip his arm off, both DMC4 and DMC5 Neros should be comparable to eacth other

He's stronger than V, yes. It's sort of like Piccolo promoting Gotenks as the best way to fight Buu, or Vegeta being put forth as their best chance against Final Form Frieza in the Namek Saga. It's not because he's ideal, it's because he's better than what else is available.

V is a weird case of being Nelo Angelo, but lacking in the physical departament, when V said that Nero could wield better them him and his summons, he is basically saying that Nero has the only thing that he lacks, the body to use it

As Griffon himself points, V have the heart (Mind, Soul) to use the DSS, only lacks the body to use it thanks to losing his demon side, so V being included here matters since he is a special case

In fact, the details of who gets the Sparda runs contrary to Nero being above Dante, because the moment Dante is awake the idea of giving Nero the Sparda instead of him seems to be discarded.

I never argued Nero is above Dante, only above Nightmare, so that is not my point here?

Nightmare doesn't have fingers to wield Sparda with. Griffon also says that you need to be strong in mind and body to wield the Sparda, and Nightmare is basically mindless. What's more, you seem to need Sparda blood to wield the Sparda, which Nightmare lacks.

He don't need fingers to wield stuff, he was alble to easely wield V in VOV, he defeney can use it if that is the only problem in hand, you don't need Sparda's blood to wield, since Trish, Sanctus and even V can ''wield'' the sword of course if you want to wield and extract the power inside of the sword, you need to be at least as strong as powerfull as DMC1 Dante and Nelo Angelo to use it.

Okay, I'm actually open to this, the idea that Mid-DMC5 Nero had surpassed DMC4/Early DMC5 Dante. The problem is you always attempt to attach larger pushes, like Post-DMC5 Nero being above Post-DMC5 Dante and Vergil despite still struggling against a severely exhausted Vergil. When that's what you're doing, people are going to reject the starting premise as well as the end goal.

Once again i'm never argued that Nero is above Dante, so that's is not relevant here?

Vergil is not tired there they can recoer their strength mid combat, but eh, i need to wank the Sparda's Family stamina fist before using that as argument unfortanely

 

[Random-Helper323]

Still means that he regained alot of his strength back

Yes, but not all of it.

which according to V's and Griffon's statenebts is strong enougth to put him at least above V

Okay.

and his summons, which is still very impressive, considering that Nightmare is among them

Where is there a statement placing him above Nightmare? Other than your own interpretation of wielding the Sparda?

, considering there is nowhere for DMC4 Nero to be far more powerfull them his DMC5 self because of a dead Vergil being able to easely rip his arm off

That dead Vergil is still post-Nelo Angelo. Just because he's so sickly doesn't mean his power is too low.

V is a weird case of being Nelo Angelo, but lacking in the physical departament, when V said that Nero could wield better them him and his summons, he is basically saying that Nero has the only thing that he lacks, the body to use it

V is only the selected weak parts of Vergil, so equating him to Nelo Angelo is questionable. Doesn't matter though, because what matters is he couldn't use the Sparda. Griffon did however state that V was lacking strength both in mind and body.

I never argued Nero is above Dante, only above Nightmare, so that is not my point here?

Your OP lists breaking the shield when DMC4 Dante couldn't as a feat. That isn't an issue for me though, I actually dislike the act of disregarding that as an outlier.

Vergil is not tired there they can recoer their strength mid combat, but eh, i need to wank the Sparda's Family stamina fist before using that as argument unfortanely

This here is literally you still arguing DMC5 Nero is above end game Dante and Vergil. And we can't say Vergil isn't worn down when Dante was severely weakened to the point of Vergil stomping him after his battle with Urizen, an easier battle than Dante vs Vergil. If you'll step back from attempting to place Nero above Dante and Vergil at their strongest, I'd actually agree with you.

you don't need Sparda's blood to wield, since Trish, Sanctus and even V can ''wield'' the sword of course if you want to wield and extract the power inside of the sword, you need to be at least as strong as powerfull as DMC1 Dante and Nelo Angelo to use it.

The page currently treats the weapon as likely needing Sparda blood to use.

I'm far more open to Breaker Nero being above DMC4 Dante than most people are, but again, you're dragging other stuff into this solely because you have a long term goal to place Post-DMC5 Nero above Post-DMC5 Dante.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Yes, but not all of it.

Ok, he still scale above V and his summons, which is what i'm want anyway

Where is there a statement placing him above Nightmare? Other than your own interpretation of wielding the Sparda?

V says he is superior them anything him and his troop can do, which includes him, Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare

So see no reason to exclude him, especially that he never bother go after the sword for him, despite knowing that he is going to train and get stronger (Aka can extract even more power from the sword), only after seeing the results of Nero training that he decides that he is now worth of the DSS.

Do i need to also point that V never bother to ask Trish and Lady to help fight against the Demon King Urizen, despite being on the same tier as Nero rn

Do you think he is excluding Nightmare from the squad even knowing that?

That dead Vergil is still post-Nelo Angelo. Just because he's so sickly doesn't mean his power is too low.

Well, i'm agree with that, for all we know that Nelo Angelo could be even at least half as strong as his peak

V is only the selected weak parts of Vergil, so equating him to Nelo Angelo is questionable. Doesn't matter though, because what matters is he couldn't use the Sparda. Griffon did however state that V was lacking strength both in mind and body.

Griffon does mention that he have the heart to use it (Which would equal to having the soul and mind i think) with only the physical part being where he falls, so he kinda mentioning hinself there should still count anyway

Your OP lists breaking the shield when DMC4 Dante couldn't as a feat. That isn't an issue for me though, I actually dislike the act of disregarding that as an outlier.

Ah my bad there, i thougth you talking about the fist part XD. Agree he kindas holds his own multiple times against him, which shows that he was consistent holding his own there, this outlier bh argument don't hold any sense tbh

This here is literally you still arguing DMC5 Nero is above end game Dante and Vergil. And we can't say Vergil isn't worn down when Dante was severely weakened to the point of Vergil stomping him after his battle with Urizen, an easier battle than Dante vs Vergil. If you'll step back from attempting to place Nero above Dante and Vergil at their strongest, I'd actually agree with you.

Like i'm said earlier, i'm need their stamina wanked before arguing that, so i'm not going to use that as argument for now. That part don't change

The page currently treats the weapon as likely needing Sparda blood to use.

Well, nothing in the series means you need Sparda's blood and soul to wield it, so that's headcanon, the only thing oficially stated by the lore is that you need a strong body, mind and soul to wield the DSS

Mind you even Agnus mentions something similar to using every type of power source in the verse, which makes the ''body and mind'' thing from DSS kinda a requiriment that every demonic energy is reguired to be able to use it demonic powers, and not something exlusive of the sword

I'm far more open to Breaker Nero being above DMC4 Dante than most people are, but again, you're dragging other stuff into this solely because you have a long term goal to place Post-DMC5 Nero above Post-DMC5 Dante.

Like said i'm not touching that part, only if the stamina upgrades goes thougth, which is a story for another day

 

[Random-Helper323]

Ok, he still scale above V and his summons, which is what i'm want anyway

Nightmare is hard to use and limited time.

So see no reason to exclude him, especially that he never bother go after the sword for him, despite knowing that he is going to train and get stronger (Aka can extract even more power from the sword), only after seeing the results of Nero training that he decides that he is now worth of the DSS.

Nero surpassed expectations, indeed.

Do i need to also point that V never bother to ask Trish and Lady to help fight against the Demon King Urizen, despite being on the same tier as Nero rn

Do you think he is excluding Nightmare from the squad even knowing that?

In all seriousness, Nero with the Sparda would have gotten even stronger.

Ah my bad there, i thougth you talking about the fist part XD. Agree he kindas holds his own multiple times against him, which shows that he was consistent holding his own there, this outlier bh argument don't hold any sense tbh

Honestly, I actually do think Nero surpassed the Dante from the start. But I strongly disagree with your long term goal of boosting Nero over end game Dante. I also think we can reconcile that information with Dante still being the one to wield the Sparda by saying that the boost Dante got during that month boosted him higher again.

I see the strength list this way:

BoG Nero < BoG Dante < Devil Breaker/Mid-Game Nero < Dante after waking up from a month of being fueled by the Qliphoth < End-Game Nero < Dante after making the DSD.

Like i'm said earlier, i'm need their stamina wanked before arguing that, so i'm not going to use that as argument for now. That part don't change

That is contradicted by Dante being so worn down from his fight with Urizen that Vergil stomped him. Yet a similarly, if not more, exhausted Vergil still gives Nero a hard fight.

Well, nothing in the series means you need Sparda's blood and soul to wield it, so that's headcanon, the only thing oficially stated by the lore is that you need a strong body, mind and soul to wield the DSS

Nightmare is basically mindless. We also have no idea what kind of soul he would truly have. There are arguments to support this, but this idea of Nightmare wielding the Sparda is not a solid way to do it.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Nightmare is hard to use and limited time.

Not really V can still use multiple times in combat, a very weakened version of him was able to summon his 3 summons multiple times in combat t figth Dante in the end of game

The devs confirmed that the reasons that they are still alive is because of his cane being there and sustaining his summons with the last remainent of V's power there.

In all seriousness, Nero with the Sparda would have gotten even stronger.

Yeap, i'm also don't disagree with that.

Honestly, I actually do think Nero surpassed the Dante from the start. But I strongly disagree with your long term goal of boosting Nero over end game Dante. I also think we can reconcile that information with Dante still being the one to wield the Sparda by saying that the boost Dante got during that month boosted him higher again.

Agree is literaly stated that human blood makes demons stronger in general, even stated in DMC1 japanese guidebook that even a mere sphere of blood can make even lesser demons multiples times stronger them before.

Urizen should be far stronger them his fist appearence since he was receiving masive quantities of human blood for a entire mouth, took him only a few days for him to go from Nightmare level to surpassing DMC4/Early DMC5 Dante which is impressive af

I see the strength list this way:

BoG Nero < BoG Dante < Devil Breaker/Mid-Game Nero < Dante after waking up from a month of being fueled by the Qliphoth < End-Game Nero < Dante after making the DSD.

Yeah, i don't disagree with that.

That is contradicted by Dante being so worn down from his fight with Urizen that Vergil stomped him. Yet a similarly, if not more, exhausted Vergil still gives Nero a hard fight.

Like i'm said i'm taclke that in another thread, we have proof both in DMC3, DMC1 and novels that Dante and Vergil can recover very fast in combat, so i will tackle that another day.

Nightmare is basically mindless. We also have no idea what kind of soul he would truly have. There are arguments to support this, but this idea of Nightmare wielding the Sparda is not a solid way to do it.

Are you sure the scan says that he don't have a mind of his own? The vov scan only mention that he don't have a ''will'' of his own, not that he don't have a mind himself..

 

[Random-Helper323]

Not really V can still use multiple times in combat, a very weakened version of him was able to summon his 3 summons multiple times in combat t figth Dante in the end of game

The devs confirmed that the reasons that they are still alive is because of his cane being there and sustaining his summons with the last remainent of V's power there.

It seemed they had some kind of life of their own. Still, V was technically wielding a part of Vergil's power, so his physical frailty doesn't discount that high energy, especially when his body is human.

Agree is literaly stated that human blood makes demons stronger in general, even stated in DMC1 japanese guidebook that even a mere sphere of blood can make even lesser demons multiples times stronger them before.

Urizen should be far stronger them his fist appearence since he was receiving masive quantities of human blood for a entire mouth, took him only a few days for him to go from Nightmare level to surpassing DMC4/Early DMC5 Dante which is impressive af

Still, Dante gained power from it during that month as well, hence why I'd say he surpassed Nero once again there, probably even before he made the Devil Sword Dante.

Like i'm said i'm taclke that in another thread, we have proof both in DMC3, DMC1 and novels that Dante and Vergil can recover very fast in combat, so i will tackle that another day.

They can recover fast, but in the scene following Dante's fight with Urizen, a similar amount of time passed between the fights, and Dante was a lot less exhausted after his fight with Urizen than he and Vergil were after their battle. And yet Vergil stomped him at that time and said he was so weakened that beating him at that time had no meaning.

Are you sure the scan says that he don't have a mind of his own? The vov scan only mention that he don't have a ''will'' of his own, not that he don't have a mind himself..

DMC1 Nightmare was considered basically mindless, and you can't be strong in mind if you lack a will of your own.

Anyway, there is evidence to support Nero being above Nightmare, and I actually don't approve of disregarding feats as outliers unless they're clearly contradicted by other evidence, but this theory of Nightmare using the Sparda relies on too many unknown variables. The other scene that demonstrates Nero's superiority is the fact that Nero brings down Gilgamesh while V was unable to. This is supported when the same things happens with Malphas.

 

[Mister6ame6]

It seemed they had some kind of life of their own. Still, V was technically wielding a part of Vergil's power, so his physical frailty doesn't discount that high energy, especially when his body is human.

Well, yeah, they kinda have a life of their own, althougth as V and Grifffon states if they don't make the contract, they will die because they are unable to sustain themselves whitheout him, so V's cane plays a role of sustaining them there. Yeah agree with that, V is technically wielding a part of Vergil's power afterwall, he is half Vergil human side i'm don't disagree with that.

Still, Dante gained power from it during that month as well, hence why I'd say he surpassed Nero once again there, probably even before he made the Devil Sword Dante.

100% agree with that, i'm neven even contested this logic

They can recover fast, but in the scene following Dante's fight with Urizen, a similar amount of time passed between the fights, and Dante was a lot less exhausted after his fight with Urizen than he and Vergil were after their battle. And yet Vergil stomped him at that time and said he was so weakened that beating him at that time had no meaning.

There is some proof in the games, mangas and novels that they can easely recover in mere seconds in mid combat, is pretty consistent that to the point that we can easely say that is just Dante and Vergil negating their physiology there.

DMC1 Nightmare was considered basically mindless, and you can't be strong in mind if you lack a will of your own.

Anyway, there is evidence to support Nero being above Nightmare, and I actually don't approve of disregarding feats as outliers unless they're clearly contradicted by other evidence, but this theory of Nightmare using the Sparda relies on too many unknown variables. The other scene that demonstrates Nero's superiority is the fact that Nero brings down Gilgamesh while V was unable to. This is supported when the same things happens with Malphas.

Fair on the Nightmare thing imo. Agree with the rest.

 

[LordGinSama]

Agreed because Nero has my favorite voice actor.


Can't deny upgrades for the man who voiced Black Power Ranger smh.

 

[Random-Helper323]

There is some proof in the games, mangas and novels that they can easely recover in mere seconds in mid combat, is pretty consistent that to the point that we can easely say that is just Dante and Vergil negating their physiology there.

It is clear that it's the injuries weakening them rather than the exertion. That might be part of why they're still okay at the end after fighting for six weeks, if they weren't wounding each other. And DMC already has a clearly established relationship between power level and the relationships between abilities (time stop, regeneration) and countering those abilities (resistance, nullification). So it does make sense that their stamina recovery is countered the same way, although it still wouldn't negate how wrecked Dante and Vergil were right after messing each other up.

Fair on the Nightmare thing imo. Agree with the rest.

V even said he couldn't deal with Gilgamesh, and basically hid behind Nero for the entire fight. He also couldn't fight Malphas with Nightmare. It's also notable that being above Nightmare only means near the level of DMC1 Dante, so while it's definitely a good benchmark in the verse, it's not in the top ranks of it.

I have to raise the issue, doesn't it then follow that Gilgamesh scales (at least in terms of durability via its metal) to Nightmare?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Agreed because Nero has my favorite voice actor.


Can't deny upgrades for the man who voiced Black Power Ranger smh.

And Ichigo and Vash the Stampede.

Did you know he was basically frothing at the mouth to play Ichigo again? He even voiced the character in fan projects, because he wanted to so much. Helps a lot when the actor is passionate about the role.

 

[Mister6ame6]

It is clear that it's the injuries weakening them rather than the exertion. That might be part of why they're still okay at the end after fighting for six weeks, if they weren't wounding each other. And DMC already has a clearly established relationship between power level and the relationships between abilities (time stop, regeneration) and countering those abilities (resistance, nullification). So it does make sense that their stamina recovery is countered the same way, although it still wouldn't negate how wrecked Dante and Vergil were right after messing each other up.

Like i'm said, i'm tackle that in another theread, lets leave the stamina thing for another day, but yeah i'm admit you gotta a point there.

V even said he couldn't deal with Gilgamesh, and basically hid behind Nero for the entire fight. He also couldn't fight Malphas with Nightmare. It's also notable that being above Nightmare only means near the level of DMC1 Dante, so while it's definitely a good benchmark in the verse, it's not in the top ranks of it.

Agree with this.

I have to raise the issue, doesn't it then follow that Gilgamesh scales (at least in terms of durability via its metal) to Nightmare?

Well maybe, he fused with the roots of the Qlippoth too that are the same roots that were fusing the Human and Demon Worlds, so it won't be a strech to say that Gilgamesh in DMC5 is far stronger them in his DMC4 couterpart. Since we have proof that demons can give their power to others or awaken/amplify other demons powers, very likely his metal got empowered too to the point that he is able to tango with Nightmare.

 

[BlastX]

I don't have much to say other than I agree with this...except the part were this scales to DMC4 Nero, him "regaining his former strength" would be referring to DMC5 Devil Bringer Nero, especially since it's been at least 5 years since DMC4 and Nero would have plenty of timd to get stronger since then.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I don't have much to say other than I agree with this...except the part were this scales to DMC4 Nero, him "regaining his former strength" would be referring to DMC5 Devil Bringer Nero, especially since it's been at least 5 years since DMC4 and Nero would have plenty of timd to get stronger since then.

Well, there is not much where Nero can grow strong in DMC5 events since he was easely defeat by Vergil, which is probably almost as strong as his Nelo Angelo self

So his DMC4 and DMC5 keys should be able to be comparable to eacth other at least

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bro I'm not joking, we did this at least 3 times now (I remember there were more attempts but too lazy to look them up) and every time you bring the same arguments.

Each time the whole thing was rejected.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Bro I'm not joking, we did this at least 3 times now (I remember there were more attempts but too lazy to look them up) and every time you bring the same arguments.

Each time the whole thing was rejected.

I literally i'm brougth the proof that the DSS skill issues is head canon as Grifado points in the game that V can wield it

And not of the scans show me showing Dante, Nero in their fist encouter and Lady and Trish being unable to scratch the shield in the game, manga and novel

So that's not really the same thing here

 

[Tanin_iver]

Bro I'm not joking, we did this at least 3 times now (I remember there were more attempts but too lazy to look them up) and every time you bring the same arguments.

Each time the whole thing was rejected.

Time to make a discussion rule. Are we sure Mister isn't Itsuno in RL, who is trying to wank Nero?

 

[Mister6ame6]

Time to make a discussion rule. Are we sure Mister isn't Itsuno in RL, who is trying to wank Nero?

I still told that i'm can make a new thread if a brougth more proof for his scaling, so i'm did

I still on the game anyway, did hurt any rules

Plus i'm don't remember doing any of this threads só i'm incocent here

 

[Ang4I00]

Will add more to this but for now I disagree FRA
Nero shouldn't even be 2-C with Devil Trigger tbh

 

[Mister6ame6]

Royalbump

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah still gonna have to disagree here, none of this remotely helps pre DT 5 nero scale to 2-C, especially when V's comment about Nero is at best a last ditch effort and not at all an implication he'd actually be as strong as Urizen.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Yeah still gonna have to disagree here, none of this remotely helps pre DT 5 nero scale to 2-C, especially when V's comment about Nero is at best a last ditch effort and not at all an implication he'd actually be as strong as Urizen.

It kinda does because if V still wanted to use a depowered Nero to figth agaist Urizen, he would have started looking for Devil Sword Sparda for him, something he only did after seeing the results of Nero's training

Even Trish and Lady which are far superior to Nero's pre training he never bothered to ask them for help

V changed his mindset a long time before ecoutering once again

His actions prove that

 

[Random-Helper323]

It kinda does because if V still wanted to use a depowered Nero to figth agaist Urizen, he would have started looking for Devil Sword Sparda for him, something he only did after seeing the results of Nero's training

Even Trish and Lady which are far superior to Nero's pre training he never bothered to ask them for help

V changed his mindset a long time before ecoutering once again

His actions prove that

This actually only proves he was his best shot, not that he had a good chance. Even Griffon states that Nero will get smashed like a bug.

I do think we should take at least some consideration of his breaking of Urizen's shield, but all this other stuff is just not good evidence.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I do think we should take at least some consideration of his breaking of Urizen's shield, but all this other stuff is just not good evidence.

Outlier

 

[Random-Helper323]

Outlier

I must ask though, what makes that feat an outlier, and why must we exclude it to match the rest of the verse?

It's often a big problem when feats are disregarded as outliers, unless those feats and scalable scenes conflict with the rest of the verse to the point of being irreconcilable. For example if Nero shattered Urizen's shield and then got beaten senseless by an Empusa.

 

[Mister6ame6]

This actually only proves he was his best shot, not that he had a good chance. Even Griffon states that Nero will get smashed like a bug.

It still proves he is on the same tier as Urizen which avoids any outlier argument

Since he wanted at least someone that can pull some damage, it safe to say that he scale above the likes of Nightmare at least

I do think we should take at least some consideration of his breaking of Urizen's shield, but all this other stuff is just not good evidence.

It kinda its since V and Griffon supporting as his best shot atm before Dante arrives, means that he is at least above Nightmare which is good lul

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I must ask though, what makes that feat an outlier, and why must we exclude it to match the rest of the verse?

It's often a big problem when feats are disregarded as outliers, unless those feats and scalable scenes conflict with the rest of the verse to the point of being irreconcilable. For example if Nero shattered Urizen's shield and then got beaten senseless by an Empusa.

Because Nero has never displayed levels of power comparable to what is needed to actually perform the feat (Dante for reference went into a coma after breaking it)

Because Nero is not only never stated to have gotten stronger but in fact he ONLY regained his lost strength.

Why is it an outlier? Not for the reasons you outlined but because Nero is at best a mid tier level character here yet somehow is able to perform such a feat and hurt the strongest character in the verse (at that moment) while other God tier characters are unable to perform something similar and an even weaker version of the strongest character.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It still proves he is on the same tier as Urizen which avoids any outlier argument

Since he wanted at least someone that can pull some damage, it safe to say that he scale above the likes of Nightmare at least

It kinda its since V and Griffon supporting as his best shot atm before Dante arrives, means that he is at least above Nightmare which is good lul

Okay, so let's go back over what evidence we actually have here. I'll preface this by saying that V can sense power levels, so his guesses about people's current power right in front of him should be accurate, but he also doesn't know all there is about the Sparda, so his knowledge of its strength might not be accurate.

Fact 1: V considered Nero their best hope of beating Urizen (although he also said that in regard to Nero prior to his training, so...)

Fact 2: He also seemed to think Nero might have a chance with the Sparda.

Fact 3: Keep in mind V doesn't know that Dante already attempted to fight Urizen with the Sparda.

Fact 4: He does however believe Nero doesn't stand a chance without it.

Fact 5: Interestingly when he finds Dante he basically abandons the plan of giving the sword to Nero in favour of letting Dante use it.

Fact 6: He still doesn't believe Dante can beat Urizen at that point.

Fact 7: When they reunite after Dante surpasses Urizen, V abandons that mentality and focuses instead on ironically protecting Urizen from Dante, reaffirming that he can sense that Dante's power has surpassed Urizen's.

I have to be honest, there are still too many unknown variables here, since V might think Nero has a chance with the Sparda, while not knowing it isn't enough. The fact that he abandons the idea of giving it to Nero and lets Dante use it tells us he thinks Dante is currently more powerful than Nero. He also stops thinking of the Sparda as a solution, suggesting that after sensing Dante's power while wielding it he now knows it isn't enough. All in all, the only thing this tells us for certain about power scaling is that Dante is superior to Nero when Dante wakes up after the month, and that Dante with the Sparda still wouldn't be able to win.

Another thing to consider is that Urizen took Dante seriously whereas he treated Nero as a pest until that moment, meaning Nero might have breached a less powerful shield. Urizen directly reinforced the shield with a physical gesture when Dante flew at it after all, whereas with Nero he just boredly told Nero to go away.

Because Nero has never displayed levels of power comparable to what is needed to actually perform the feat (Dante for reference went into a coma after breaking it)

Because Nero is not only never stated to have gotten stronger but in fact he ONLY regained his lost strength.

Why is it an outlier? Not for the reasons you outlined but because Nero is at best a mid tier level character here yet somehow is able to perform such a feat and hurt the strongest character in the verse (at that moment) while other God tier characters are unable to perform something similar and an even weaker version of the strongest character.

It's tough since we don't know if he'd already ascended to a god tier level during those months. I think when it comes to feats, we need more than just saying he isn't stated to have gotten stronger. You're looking for extra evidence to affirm a feat that happens on-screen. If anything we need evidence to conflict with it if we want to dismiss it as an outlier. All the same, another issue occurred to me, which I will copy from my above message to Mister: Urizen took Dante seriously whereas he treated Nero as a pest until that moment, meaning Nero might have breached a less powerful shield. Urizen directly reinforced the shield with a physical gesture when Dante flew at it after all, whereas with Nero he just boredly told Nero to go away.

 

[BlastX]

I mean it's not like Nero has any anti feats after breaking the shield IIRC.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Okay, so let's go back over what evidence we actually have here. I'll preface this by saying that V can sense power levels, so his guesses about people's current power right in front of him should be accurate, but he also doesn't know all there is about the Sparda, so his knowledge of its strength might not be accurate.

Fact 1: V considered Nero their best hope of beating Urizen (although he also said that in regard to Nero prior to his training, so...)

Fact 2: He also seemed to think Nero might have a chance with the Sparda.

Fact 3: Keep in mind V doesn't know that Dante already attempted to fight Urizen with the Sparda.

Fact 4: He does however believe Nero doesn't stand a chance without it.

Fact 5: Interestingly when he finds Dante he basically abandons the plan of giving the sword to Nero in favour of letting Dante use it.

Fact 6: He still doesn't believe Dante can beat Urizen at that point.

Fact 7: When they reunite after Dante surpasses Urizen, V abandons that mentality and focuses instead on ironically protecting Urizen from Dante, reaffirming that he can sense that Dante's power has surpassed Urizen's.

I have to be honest, there are still too many unknown variables here, since V might think Nero has a chance with the Sparda, while not knowing it isn't enough. The fact that he abandons the idea of giving it to Nero and lets Dante use it tells us he thinks Dante is currently more powerful than Nero. He also stops thinking of the Sparda as a solution, suggesting that after sensing Dante's power while wielding it he now knows it isn't enough. All in all, the only thing this tells us for certain about power scaling is that Dante is superior to Nero when Dante wakes up after the month, and that Dante with the Sparda still wouldn't be able to win.

Another thing to consider is that Urizen took Dante seriously whereas he treated Nero as a pest until that moment, meaning Nero might have breached a less powerful shield. Urizen directly reinforced the shield with a physical gesture when Dante flew at it after all, whereas with Nero he just boredly told Nero to go away.


It's tough since we don't know if he'd already ascended to a god tier level during those months. I think when it comes to feats, we need more than just saying he isn't stated to have gotten stronger. You're looking for extra evidence to affirm a feat that happens on-screen. If anything we need evidence to conflict with it if we want to dismiss it as an outlier. All the same, another issue occurred to me, which I will copy from my above message to Mister: Urizen took Dante seriously whereas he treated Nero as a pest until that moment, meaning Nero might have breached a less powerful shield. Urizen directly reinforced the shield with a physical gesture when Dante flew at it after all, whereas with Nero he just boredly told Nero to go away.

All those are points we already tackled in past threads.

 

[Tanin_iver]

All I see is Deadweight with Plot Armor. I mean I am fine with indexing it like "4C, higher with Plot Armor" if u guys want.

 

[Random-Helper323]

All those are points we already tackled in past threads.

I realise that this discussion is a retread of a retread of another retread for you and that Mister is thinking of lots of weird arguments to try to make Nero upgrades stick, and I understand you have reason to be frustrated, but I'd like to ask you to be less rude here.


We have a feat where he breaks Urizen's shield, him destroying Gilgamesh who V admitted he couldn't deal with, and it seems dishonest to just say outlier and move on. And I say that as someone who thinks Nero's power jumps are unreasonably easy for him compared to Dante's and Vergil's, and I also strongly disagree with Nero surpassing end game Dante and Vergil.

All I see is Deadweight with Plot Armor. I mean I am fine with indexing it like "4C, higher with Plot Armor" if u guys want.

It's more Pulls New Powers from Butt, however even if we call it plot armour that doesn't negate the character's achievements. That's how we get characters who defy expectations and in particular how we get characters who are too competent for what they are.