[DMC] Yamato/Nero Hax Removal

[Deagonx]

Despite it being literally one of the effects of the demon world's presence and the demons being affected means the whole "demons by default aren't affected" is complete headcanon since they shouldn't be affected at all by the nexus world to begin with by your own logic.

What does this have to do with absorption? Besides that, the story says that the underworld was in-fact recharging the demons. First it said they were all drained of their magical energy due to using their demon forms in the human world.

The surviving demon lords were so drained of magical energy that they barely clung to life. Nevertheless, Blade and Griffon had agreed to accompany Dante and Beryl to Mundus' kingdom.

Dante hadn't expected to march into an abyss with a demon army at his side. His newfound allies found their magical energies replenished the nearer they got to the heart of the Underworld. The demon realms proved a psychic balm for the soldiers, and their spirits rose with each step.

The demonic energy was so pervasive now that Griffon and the other unholy allies easily dealt with their attackers.

The DWE was literally a positive thing for the demons the entire journey up until they got all the way to the nexus. A la "too much of a good thing." Ironically, Beryl was still able to keep going, so it's not as though it's just a matter of strength and resistance, the relationship between demons and DWE is unique, but is almost always a good thing, regenerative and empowering.

But again, I fail to see what this has to do with "resistance to absorption."

 

[Theglassman12]

I love the fact you just ignore that the same energy that they're taking is what led them to being unable to move because of the amount of energy granted to them, you're just throwing shit at the wall at this point and I'm not gonna humor you anymore.

 

[Deagonx]

I love the fact you just ignore that the same energy that they're taking is what led them to being unable to move because of the amount of energy granted to them

My god. Not only did I not ignore that, I literally mentioned it in the very post you are responding to.

The DWE was literally a positive thing for the demons the entire journey up until they got all the way to the nexus. A la "too much of a good thing."

I am aware that it became too much for them when they got to the Nexus, that's my entire point, but for the entire journey leading up to that it was constantly described as not simply "not effecting them" but, in fact, literally restoring their power!

you're just throwing shit at the wall at this point and I'm not gonna humor you anymore.

This is so typical, honestly. It's like this in every thread where you come to FRA and leave. You are constantly looking for some shallow excuse to avoid any further engagement under the veneer of me being simply too unreasonable to engage with, because you cannot actually justify your position. Amazingly, in this case, that excuse was me "ignoring" information that was in the comment you quoted!

Meanwhile you've completely avoided even attempting to explain how any of this justifies a resistance to absorption or is even connected to that subject, you've avoided explaining how an environmental change would grant any involved part a resistance to absorption, you avoided countering the point about Beryl, or engaging with the fact that the energy was restoring them for most of the journey. It's so transparent. I am not sure why you are even here pantomiming a discussion when you are so clearly incapable of actually rebutting anything I'm saying or making a remotely convincing case for your point.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Hey so like, let’s not keep poisoning the well with all these insults and accusations like this. Cool? Cool

 

[Deagonx]

Agreed.

 

[LordGinSama]

Still not seeing the resistance thing.

Why would Demons be effected from the DW absorbing the HW whenever demons are from the DW to begin with? If the DW is targeting the HW and humans then Demons obviously wouldn't be effected.

 

[KingNanaya]

yeah, I find myself agreeing more with the OP

 

[Deagonx]

Still not seeing the resistance thing.

Why would Demons be effected from the DW absorbing the HW whenever demons are from the DW to begin with? If the DW is targeting the HW and humans then Demons obviously wouldn't be effected.

I mean, honestly I think it should be thought of slightly differently.

Imagine a room with two sides, one side is DW and the other is HW. On the HW side there is a human and a demon.

Suddenly the DW side expands and takes over the HW side of the room, filling it with DW energy which empowers the Demon and fatigues the human.

How are either of these people "resisting" absorption? The HW side of the room is ostensibly being absorbed (I disagree but it's moot). It happens around the Demon and human. How on earth is that resistance? No one can explain it to me. If anything they're both getting absorbed

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Spoiler: Demon World and Beastheads

So first and foremost lets address the easiest topic to debunk, that somehow DW and BH have a caveat of not choosing to absorb demons, which is just frankly insane take with zero evidence and reverses burden of proof.
But I guess I must debunk this hot take anyway cuz I committed to it.

Demon World Absorption shenanigans

Spoiler: DWE Absorption

First and and foremost DW absorbing HW is the most unequivocal thing in the verse because it is literally the history of the lore.
Anyone who has bothered to check the Tier 2 Blog for DMC can attest to that. It's one of the main reasons DMC has 2C ratings,

Devil May Cry: Feats Summarized and Explained

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Devil May Cry - Cosmology Explanation Page

Currently, we accept the feat of Pluto (Demon King who preceded Mundus) splitting the original universe into two separate ones, as per this explanation page. The demon world and human world are noted to be two separate universal space times. We already accept both being separate universes. For...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Lets summarize them shall we...
1) Mundus fusing DW and HW 2000 years ago because he wanted things to be how they were originally before Pluto split the worlds, a.k.a co-existing as one.
2) Void Mundus doing the same in DMC2 Novel, fusing HW into DW.
3) Argosax warping HW and absorbing it into DW, returning it to the original state of the World of Darkness.
4) Qlipoth doing same thing overtime, pulling HW towards DW while it absorbs everything and anything untill they are united.

Aside from these there is the Gilver's nexus feat, which is also relevant because he summoned a powerful nexus which was capable of consuming HW and replacing it with a new DW.
I don't understand the twisted logic of excluding the various DW nexus/bridgehead feats from Volume 1 novel, in the context of novel each bridgehead was capable of warping, consuming and replacing their target locations with their demonic world counterparts, and in case of Gilver's nexus which was the most powerful one, capable of consuming and replacing HW with a new DW entirely. Not unlike the Thing from the famed horror movie doing same to it's human victims. I don't see how consumption and replacement have to be contrary to each other when latter can come after the former very nicely, and last time I checked consumption does require intake/absorption or assimilation because that's the textbook definition/synonyms.
Anyways the warping and absorption process is default in the abilities of DWE which exists everywhere in DW and especially the various Bridgeheads and Nexus, for example.
DMC2
DMC Vol 1, The Oz Club, The Asylum, and finally the Bob's Cellar at end of novel which is already mentioned above.

Demon Resistance

Spoiler: Demon Resistance

The claim that demons are somehow selectively ignored by DWE and selectively targets only humans and thus demons shouldn't have resistance is utter garbage. This is backed by no evidence and is a complete reversal of burden of proof. The fact that they live and thrive in a deadly environment saturated in DWE is proof enough that they resist. The fact that they absorb said energy and get amps from it without suffering any ill effects is another alarming proof. If the DWE was avoiding touching demons because apparently they are snowflakes, how the *** is they absorbing the energy shit and getting stronger by it?

With that logic Superman shouldn't have resistance against extreme heat and radiation because Sun amps him not hurts him.
The mutants/evolved etc in Prototype shouldn't have resistance to Blacklight virus because it amps them.
Hulk shouldn't have resistance to Gamma Radiation because it amps him.

Hell forget fiction, this is real life logic and common sense.

Why do you think dust allergies and food allergies exist? Peanut is an extremely nutrient dense food for humans, but some people get life threatening allergies if they eat peanuts. Some people cannot tolerate milk or eggs etc. Some people get extreme sneezing or asthama from dust while majority won't from breathing simple dusty air. Some people get skin rashes from wild bushes rubbing against their skin. I know, above two things used to happen to me, although I have overcome the dust allergy and bush allergy to an extent. Same applies to diseases amongst humans, some people have excellent immunity due childhood diseases or vaccines while some don't and suffer in adult age because of it.
Same principle also applies interspecies, we can eat chocolate just fine but it's toxic for canines, conversely plenty of animals can eat poisonous mushrooms without ill effects which would be straight up deadly for humans. Some diseases we suffer against won't afflict other animals vice versa plenty of human diseases don't affect animals or plants.
In none of the cases above is peanut, milk, eggs or dust or bushes discriminating between different human beings, favouring a majority over minority. It's just that some humans have low resilience or immunity against certain things while others have it normal, unless you purposefully immunise youself against those things
This is the best example for DWE, because what will be toxic waste for one one species is nutritious food for another, DWE serves in same capacity. Demons are resilient to DWE and thrive on it, but humans can't.

Hell, the toxic nature of DWE is the main reason demons get amped and not get shanked. Demons by their very nature absorb and consume everything whether it's positive, negative or neutral nature they will assimilate it for power. But this especially important for DWE because demons thrive on negative shit, whether it's negative emotions like fear or insanity, sins and evil morality, giving and recieving pain etc. it's in their very nature to subsist on and evolve on basis of negative stuff, which DWE gives them in droves.

But there is a limit to that, exceptionally potent variants of DWE can affect certain demons depending on the individual resistances unless they evolve, for example Nobodies needed to evolve to survive the harsh world of DW. Meanwhile Demon Generals in alternate universe drop like flies when they get to main nexus of Void Mundus due to energy overload and they drop unconscious from pain. So unless we are talking about uber potent Nexus, Demons resist DWE is just fine.
The fact that humans are also transmuted into stone and trees is a big deal because they are becoming absorbed to be part of the demonic realm, because it proves that they are not just turning into demons and therefore demons are unaffected, the fact that demons don't become trees or become petrified speaks a lot.

Beastheads shenanigans

Spoiler: BH Shenanigans

Honestly Beastheads is same situation as DWE as far as demons resistance go, so much in fact that they are practially the same thing.
But before that let's look at this,

The novel outright mentions demons having resistance to general abilities of demons, this alone kills any and all downplay. Second thing, just like DWE above as I explained, Beastheads acting as power transformers for Demons by converting humans to energy is in no way shape or form a proof that Beastheads are not designed to affect demon or actively do not hax demons, because it's not even a contradiction in the first place.
2nd thing, the energy is technically how the consumption is carried out by Beastheads, as seen here , Ducas a human was overrun by Beastheads energy, said energy is the actual reason Ducas was disintegrated and absorbed, same energy consumed by demons without any ill effects.

Also remember when I said DWE and Beastheads are same thing, that is literal. People would have found it if only they read Physiology page properly.

Demon Physiology (Devil May Cry)

Demons are the most common enemies in the Devil May Cry game series, appearing in all media involving the title. Most demons are generally very selfish, power-hungry, and cruel; often seeking to increase their own power or influence at the expense of either other demons or humans. Very rarely do...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Beastheads literally and directly derive their powers from DWE, it's mechanism of working acts like portal to pull energy from Demon World for use, hence 9/10 hax and powers are same as DWE and hence we write it as same for resistance for demons on physiology page. No wonder demons have another proof and reason to resist Beastheads. The only unique powers Beastheads has which is impressive is busted BFR, Blursed Fate and uber Cosmic awareness.

Also bonus


So that should bury all BH,DWE and Demon resistances downplay in 6 feet underground.

Spoiler: Nero/Saviour/Yamato

Now tackling the original topic of OP

First of all the surface of Saviour's exterior is permeable, literally described as if it were incorporeal by Nero, which allows Saviour to absorb stuff freely. The notion that Sanctus has to manually activate said ability makes no sense when by default absorption properties are possessed by Saviour's skin, because as the scan says that's what allows him to move freely in and out of Saviour and same principle allows Kyrie to remain trapped in it, used as bait and switch constantly by Sanctus as shown in video.

Second, Nero is there stuck in Saviour's hand for long time even after Sanctus took Yamato, if Nero is truly helpless against absorption, Sanctus could have him digested at anytime, but he didn't.
Instead he chose stab Yamato into Devil Bringer.
Now some people say that getting Yamato spalshed with blood is somehow serving an external purpose which is why Sanctus did it. What the said purpose is, is not something justified by opposition here at all.
Let's steelman this point for arguements sake, what does that actually change for Yamato nulling Nero? Nothing! Like we have direct visuals of Nero getting power nulled. We don't need statements at that point.
It's a unequivocal fact as shown in the game that Yamato was used to negate Nero. His Devil Bringer lost it's glow and powers.

Another point I saw braught up was that Nero's blood was needed for Statue. Which makes no sense, Nero is already getting absorbed and assimilated there in body and soul. What purpose is removing extra blood doing?
If anything, it actually explicitly proves resistance for Nero. If drawing blood was explicit requirement for making Nero absorbable, then that means Nero was incapable of being absorbed prior to fullfilling this blood prerequisite. That automatically fullfills resistance requirements LMFAO.
And all of this is still extra compared to graphic showcase of power null done by stabbing Yamato into Nero. Which still stands unrefuted.

Another point that is being braught is this Yamato plus Nero's blood required for final stages of plan. And when asked what final stage of plan is, the answer given to us by OP is Hellgate opening.
At that point the only thing left to say is that OP and Co. has extremely limited knowledge of the game and it's lore.

The final stage of plan has always been using Saviour to play a false god and bring impress the people into worshipping the Order for world domination and recreation.
Saviour was made for literally that purpose.
Unfortunately when Saviour was created, it was inoperable despite it's immense power. Agnus had almost give up hope on it.
Up untill this point Yamato existed as broken pieces, being experimented on by Agnus. Which is what allowed Agnus to create false HellGates, which facilitated creation of Saviour in the first place by providing large amount of demons.
But Yamato still remains broken, unable of being fixed, and the plan to open true HellGate is a pipedream.
Then they find out Dante and Sparda sword exist, both together capable of supplying large power to Saviour and controll it successfully. Nevermind that any attempt to capture or outsmart Dante into Saviour would have been futile for obvious reasons, admitted by Agnus himself. And Yamato is still broken, which means it's still not a priority to open the main Hellgate.

It's only chance luck that Nero encounters Agnus and Yamato and ends up fixing the blade, proving he is descendant of Sparda. From then on the variables changed.
Opening of Main HellGate is actually possible now, and Nero serves as excellent substitute to replace Dante.

All that I have said is covered in novel, here.

All in all this blood connection thing with Yamato for Hellgate is completely nil. It has nothing to do with it.
Because ever since the Order found broken Yamato, they always wished to unlock main Hellgate, well before Nero ever came into picture. His blood wasn't prerequisite back then not is it now.
_--------x---------x-----

TLDR
Visuals of power null are blatant, and have no satisfactory counter.
There's no connection between Hellgate and Nero's blood with Yamato.
Blood being needed as a prerequisite to have Nero get absorbed actually proves he had resistance originally, otherwise Saviour cannot absorb him normally.
Saviour doesn't need actively absorb anything, his exterior by itself is permeable in nature, pretty much any demonic entity can get absorbed in it upon contact.

I'm a little divided here, but I personally think Gilver makes the most sense here.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm a little divided here, but I personally think Gilver makes the most sense here.

Do you want to be counted as a disagree or as a neutral?

Personally I really am not seeing it at all. This analogy is what I can't wrap my head around, and none of the supporters have been able to justify it:

I mean, honestly I think it should be thought of slightly differently.

Imagine a room with two sides, one side is DW and the other is HW. On the HW side there is a human and a demon.

Suddenly the DW side expands and takes over the HW side of the room, filling it with DW energy which empowers the Demon and fatigues the human.

How are either of these people "resisting" absorption? The HW side of the room is ostensibly being absorbed (I disagree but it's moot). It happens around the Demon and human. How on earth is that resistance? No one can explain it to me. If anything they're both getting absorbed

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

While I haven't been keeping track of everything said so far, has a single example been given of a character being "absorbed" into the Demon World? Like, physically becoming a part of it, or having statements of being consumed or subsumed by it, anything?

 

[Deagonx]

While I haven't been keeping track of everything said so far, has a single example been given of a character being "absorbed" into the Demon World? Like, physically becoming a part of it, or having statements of being consumed or subsumed by it, anything?

I mean, I just can't wrap my head around what the argument even is.

The DW takes over ("absorbs") a segment of the HW so demons have absorption resistance? This is nonsensical. I cannot fathom why people are FRA'ing this.

The same thing is happening to both humans and demons: the human world around them is being transformed into demonic territory. This benefits the demons and hurts the humans, but neither are "resisting" it.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Do you want to be counted as a disagree or as a neutral?

Personally I really am not seeing it at all. This analogy is what I can't wrap my head around, and none of the supporters have been able to justify it:

He said that gilver makes the most sense for him, I don’t believe that he should be any clearer about him agreeing with gilver.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Disagree FRA via Gilvers and Glassmans points.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

He said that gilver makes the most sense for him, I don’t believe that he should be any clearer about him agreeing with gilver.

Doesn't matter, we make our own tally.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

However, this is not accurate. In the story the Vicar directly says that he needs to combine the sword with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is), and that is the reason why the Vicar waited until stabbing Nero with the sword to have him absorbed into the statue, not because he needed to do so to overcome Nero's absorption resistance.

Bruh the next second shows pope francis was talking about his plan. Not to mention nero had the sword not the pope lmfao.

もはや脱出不可能

Escape is no longer possible!

English version also says escape is now impossible so yeah.

I'm not a professional translator mind you, but I guess the professional translator seems to agree.

He audibly say this after stabbing Nero with the Yamato btw and the fact he could absorb ppl like Kyrie in and out but had to wait till he got the Yamato then stabbed him and he finally got absorbed would indicate Yamato did something to Nero until he had nothing left.

I disagree with this entire thread as Gilver and Glass made far more sense.

I didn't even want to come but the leap in logic is...outstandingly wack so I'm just here for that :/

 

[Deagonx]

Not to mention nero had the sword not the pope lmfao.

Bruh.

had to wait till he got the Yamato then stabbed him and he finally got absorbed would indicate Yamato did something to Nero until he had nothing left.

This is directly contradicted by the Vicar. He didn't need to stab Nero to absorb him, he needed to get blood from a descendant of Sparda on the sword to proceed with his plan. That's why he waited to absorb Nero.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So I was called out for ""evading"", but I honestly didn't have time to catch up with thread due to lots of work and time-zones, I'll just address some of the "NEW" arguments again and some new arguments, in all in one address cuz haven't got time for back and forth.

 

[Deagonx]

So I was called out for ""evading"", but I honestly didn't have time to catch up with thread due to lots of work and time-zones

To be clear, at the point in time in which I said that, you were not only actively responding but you in fact overtly said that you would not answer my question, so this was not because you were too busy.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Disagree FRA via Gilvers and Glassmans points.

I share the same opinion

 

[marosuke]

Disagree with the OP, Gilver’s extra context with the Beastheads and the DWE stuff plus how Nero’s resistance is bypassed makes it pretty clear cut.

There’s also the original Japanese text which flat out said that Nero no longer has the power to resist when getting hit by Yamato so the fact his resistance got negged is pretty blatant.

seems that Yamato has disabled pain manipulation that Dante and Nero possesses. I mean isn't this a category error?

 

[KingogKings777]

Disagree, the people against the downgrade/removal got some pretty good arguments but I can see why this was made.

 

[LordGinSama]

The novel outright mentions demons having resistance to general abilities of demons, this alone kills any and all downplay.

Wouldn't this still be open to the interpretation that it's still a caveat? Demons are immune yes, but that's because they aren't effected to begin with.


Got any scans for the Beastheads actively trying to assimilate Demons? I find it extremely odd that all Demons are given resistance to The BH and DWE, especially whenever Dante can kill normal demons with ease at his weakest point.


So Dante at his weakest is >>>> Demon resistance >>>> Beastheads >>> his own resistance since he struggled with it?


Mundus made the damn thing so I'm not sure why something Mundus of all people made is being scaled to vastly weaker demons.

 

[Deagonx]

Got any scans for the Beastheads actively trying to assimilate Demons? I find it extremely odd that all Demons are given resistance to The BH and DWE

Yeah it's pretty kooky and I plan to keep fixing the verse after this thread is over. Demons don't resist DWE, it's beneficial to them.

Similarly, sunlight will disintegrate a Vampire and not a human. This isn't because humans have a broad resistance to disintegration, they just don't have the same interaction with sunlight.

Characterizing Demons as having "resistance" to all of the negative effects humans suffer from DWE is really egregious when we know that DWE straight up replenishes them and encourages them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It’s not “fixing” the verse it’s just proposing changes you think make sense, I hate when that’s referred to as “fixing” it so much

Given the current staff tally, we’re definitely in need of more input. Idk who really comments on DMC stuff tho

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It’s not “fixing” the verse it’s just proposing changes you think make sense, I hate when that’s referred to as “fixing” it so much

Given the current staff tally, we’re definitely in need of more input. Idk who really comments on DMC stuff tho

People that are knowledgeable on DMC or willing to comment on it are elizha, lord griffin and I think Grath

 

[Palito266]

Yeah it's pretty kooky and I plan to keep fixing the verse after this thread is over. Demons don't resist DWE, it's beneficial to them.

Similarly, sunlight will disintegrate a Vampire and not a human. This isn't because humans have a broad resistance to disintegration, they just don't have the same interaction with sunlight.

Characterizing Demons as having "resistance" to all of the negative effects humans suffer from DWE is really egregious when we know that DWE straight up replenishes them and encourages them.

What are these "fixes" you plan on doing?
Though please, if anyone is against them don't reply in this thread since that would be derailing, i'm just genuinely curious.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Currently, the sword Yamato has Resistance Negation and Power Nullification based on the claim that it nullified Nero's Resistance to Absorption when the Vicar stabbed Nero with it.

Nero's resistance seems to come from the Demon Physiology page which lists Low Tier demons (and up) as having Resistance to Absorption, noting:

However, the scans don't support the claim. In the scans, the demon world is described as "replacing" the human world, it essentially spreading like a corruptive influence as it subsumes the human world, and this is occurring around Dante and Gilver as the fight is going on. "The Demon World is replacing yours. It will spread out from this nexus until finally everything is consumed."

Problematically... this isn't absorption under pretty much any interpretation I can imagine, and even if it were Dante and Gilver are not resisting anything, their environment is actively changing around them. So, arguably it should be removed from the page.

Now, where Nero and Yamato are concerned, Nero was grabbed by a large statue/golem which could absorb things into it. The Vicar controlling it can willfully control when things are absorbed into it, and where they come back out. The statue holds Nero in place until the Vicar stabs him with the sword Yamato, at which point he is absorbed. The reasoning goes that Nero was resisting the absorption ability until the sword stabbed him, which negated his resistance and allowed the statue to absorb him.

However, this is not accurate. In the story the Vicar directly says that he needs to combine the sword with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is), and that is the reason why the Vicar waited until stabbing Nero with the sword to have him absorbed into the statue, not because he needed to do so to overcome Nero's absorption resistance.

TL;DR: Nero never demonstrates a resistance and is not described as having one, Yamato never demonstrates negation and isn't described as being capable of it, Occam's Razor is that there's no resistance or resistance negation going on, as the sequence of events is already adequately accounted for by the fact that the Vicar needed to get Nero's blood on the sword first.

Spoiler: Demon World and Beastheads

So first and foremost lets address the easiest topic to debunk, that somehow DW and BH have a caveat of not choosing to absorb demons, which is just frankly insane take with zero evidence and reverses burden of proof.
But I guess I must debunk this hot take anyway cuz I committed to it.

Demon World Absorption shenanigans

Spoiler: DWE Absorption

First and and foremost DW absorbing HW is the most unequivocal thing in the verse because it is literally the history of the lore.
Anyone who has bothered to check the Tier 2 Blog for DMC can attest to that. It's one of the main reasons DMC has 2C ratings,

Devil May Cry: Feats Summarized and Explained

vsbattles.fandom.com

Devil May Cry - Cosmology Explanation Page

Currently, we accept the feat of Pluto (Demon King who preceded Mundus) splitting the original universe into two separate ones, as per this explanation page. The demon world and human world are noted to be two separate universal space times. We already accept both being separate universes. For...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Lets summarize them shall we...
1) Mundus fusing DW and HW 2000 years ago because he wanted things to be how they were originally before Pluto split the worlds, a.k.a co-existing as one.
2) Void Mundus doing the same in DMC2 Novel, fusing HW into DW.
3) Argosax warping HW and absorbing it into DW, returning it to the original state of the World of Darkness.
4) Qlipoth doing same thing overtime, pulling HW towards DW while it absorbs everything and anything untill they are united.

Aside from these there is the Gilver's nexus feat, which is also relevant because he summoned a powerful nexus which was capable of consuming HW and replacing it with a new DW.
I don't understand the twisted logic of excluding the various DW nexus/bridgehead feats from Volume 1 novel, in the context of novel each bridgehead was capable of warping, consuming and replacing their target locations with their demonic world counterparts, and in case of Gilver's nexus which was the most powerful one, capable of consuming and replacing HW with a new DW entirely. Not unlike the Thing from the famed horror movie doing same to it's human victims. I don't see how consumption and replacement have to be contrary to each other when latter can come after the former very nicely, and last time I checked consumption does require intake/absorption or assimilation because that's the textbook definition/synonyms.
Anyways the warping and absorption process is default in the abilities of DWE which exists everywhere in DW and especially the various Bridgeheads and Nexus, for example.
DMC2
DMC Vol 1, The Oz Club, The Asylum, and finally the Bob's Cellar at end of novel which is already mentioned above.

Demon Resistance

Spoiler: Demon Resistance

The claim that demons are somehow selectively ignored by DWE and selectively targets only humans and thus demons shouldn't have resistance is utter garbage. This is backed by no evidence and is a complete reversal of burden of proof. The fact that they live and thrive in a deadly environment saturated in DWE is proof enough that they resist. The fact that they absorb said energy and get amps from it without suffering any ill effects is another alarming proof. If the DWE was avoiding touching demons because apparently they are snowflakes, how the *** is they absorbing the energy shit and getting stronger by it?

With that logic Superman shouldn't have resistance against extreme heat and radiation because Sun amps him not hurts him.
The mutants/evolved etc in Prototype shouldn't have resistance to Blacklight virus because it amps them.
Hulk shouldn't have resistance to Gamma Radiation because it amps him.

Hell forget fiction, this is real life logic and common sense.

Why do you think dust allergies and food allergies exist? Peanut is an extremely nutrient dense food for humans, but some people get life threatening allergies if they eat peanuts. Some people cannot tolerate milk or eggs etc. Some people get extreme sneezing or asthama from dust while majority won't from breathing simple dusty air. Some people get skin rashes from wild bushes rubbing against their skin. I know, above two things used to happen to me, although I have overcome the dust allergy and bush allergy to an extent. Same applies to diseases amongst humans, some people have excellent immunity due childhood diseases or vaccines while some don't and suffer in adult age because of it.
Same principle also applies interspecies, we can eat chocolate just fine but it's toxic for canines, conversely plenty of animals can eat poisonous mushrooms without ill effects which would be straight up deadly for humans. Some diseases we suffer against won't afflict other animals vice versa plenty of human diseases don't affect animals or plants.
In none of the cases above is peanut, milk, eggs or dust or bushes discriminating between different human beings, favouring a majority over minority. It's just that some humans have low resilience or immunity against certain things while others have it normal, unless you purposefully immunise youself against those things
This is the best example for DWE, because what will be toxic waste for one one species is nutritious food for another, DWE serves in same capacity. Demons are resilient to DWE and thrive on it, but humans can't.

Hell, the toxic nature of DWE is the main reason demons get amped and not get shanked. Demons by their very nature absorb and consume everything whether it's positive, negative or neutral nature they will assimilate it for power. But this especially important for DWE because demons thrive on negative shit, whether it's negative emotions like fear or insanity, sins and evil morality, giving and recieving pain etc. it's in their very nature to subsist on and evolve on basis of negative stuff, which DWE gives them in droves.

But there is a limit to that, exceptionally potent variants of DWE can affect certain demons depending on the individual resistances unless they evolve, for example Nobodies needed to evolve to survive the harsh world of DW. Meanwhile Demon Generals in alternate universe drop like flies when they get to main nexus of Void Mundus due to energy overload and they drop unconscious from pain. So unless we are talking about uber potent Nexus, Demons resist DWE is just fine.
The fact that humans are also transmuted into stone and trees is a big deal because they are becoming absorbed to be part of the demonic realm, because it proves that they are not just turning into demons and therefore demons are unaffected, the fact that demons don't become trees or become petrified speaks a lot.

Beastheads shenanigans

Spoiler: BH Shenanigans

Honestly Beastheads is same situation as DWE as far as demons resistance go, so much in fact that they are practially the same thing.
But before that let's look at this,

The novel outright mentions demons having resistance to general abilities of demons, this alone kills any and all downplay. Second thing, just like DWE above as I explained, Beastheads acting as power transformers for Demons by converting humans to energy is in no way shape or form a proof that Beastheads are not designed to affect demon or actively do not hax demons, because it's not even a contradiction in the first place.
2nd thing, the energy is technically how the consumption is carried out by Beastheads, as seen here , Ducas a human was overrun by Beastheads energy, said energy is the actual reason Ducas was disintegrated and absorbed, same energy consumed by demons without any ill effects.

Also remember when I said DWE and Beastheads are same thing, that is literal. People would have found it if only they read Physiology page properly.

Demon Physiology (Devil May Cry)

Demons are the most common enemies in the Devil May Cry game series, appearing in all media involving the title. Most demons are generally very selfish, power-hungry, and cruel; often seeking to increase their own power or influence at the expense of either other demons or humans. Very rarely do...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Beastheads literally and directly derive their powers from DWE, it's mechanism of working acts like portal to pull energy from Demon World for use, hence 9/10 hax and powers are same as DWE and hence we write it as same for resistance for demons on physiology page. No wonder demons have another proof and reason to resist Beastheads. The only unique powers Beastheads has which is impressive is busted BFR, Blursed Fate and uber Cosmic awareness.

Also bonus


So that should bury all BH,DWE and Demon resistances downplay in 6 feet underground.

Spoiler: Nero/Saviour/Yamato

Now tackling the original topic of OP

First of all the surface of Saviour's exterior is permeable, literally described as if it were incorporeal by Nero, which allows Saviour to absorb stuff freely. The notion that Sanctus has to manually activate said ability makes no sense when by default absorption properties are possessed by Saviour's skin, because as the scan says that's what allows him to move freely in and out of Saviour and same principle allows Kyrie to remain trapped in it, used as bait and switch constantly by Sanctus as shown in video.

Second, Nero is there stuck in Saviour's hand for long time even after Sanctus took Yamato, if Nero is truly helpless against absorption, Sanctus could have him digested at anytime, but he didn't.
Instead he chose stab Yamato into Devil Bringer.
Now some people say that getting Yamato spalshed with blood is somehow serving an external purpose which is why Sanctus did it. What the said purpose is, is not something justified by opposition here at all.
Let's steelman this point for arguements sake, what does that actually change for Yamato nulling Nero? Nothing! Like we have direct visuals of Nero getting power nulled. We don't need statements at that point.
It's a unequivocal fact as shown in the game that Yamato was used to negate Nero. His Devil Bringer lost it's glow and powers.

Another point I saw braught up was that Nero's blood was needed for Statue. Which makes no sense, Nero is already getting absorbed and assimilated there in body and soul. What purpose is removing extra blood doing?
If anything, it actually explicitly proves resistance for Nero. If drawing blood was explicit requirement for making Nero absorbable, then that means Nero was incapable of being absorbed prior to fullfilling this blood prerequisite. That automatically fullfills resistance requirements LMFAO.
And all of this is still extra compared to graphic showcase of power null done by stabbing Yamato into Nero. Which still stands unrefuted.

Another point that is being braught is this Yamato plus Nero's blood required for final stages of plan. And when asked what final stage of plan is, the answer given to us by OP is Hellgate opening.
At that point the only thing left to say is that OP and Co. has extremely limited knowledge of the game and it's lore.

The final stage of plan has always been using Saviour to play a false god and bring impress the people into worshipping the Order for world domination and recreation.
Saviour was made for literally that purpose.
Unfortunately when Saviour was created, it was inoperable despite it's immense power. Agnus had almost give up hope on it.
Up untill this point Yamato existed as broken pieces, being experimented on by Agnus. Which is what allowed Agnus to create false HellGates, which facilitated creation of Saviour in the first place by providing large amount of demons.
But Yamato still remains broken, unable of being fixed, and the plan to open true HellGate is a pipedream.
Then they find out Dante and Sparda sword exist, both together capable of supplying large power to Saviour and controll it successfully. Nevermind that any attempt to capture or outsmart Dante into Saviour would have been futile for obvious reasons, admitted by Agnus himself. And Yamato is still broken, which means it's still not a priority to open the main Hellgate.

It's only chance luck that Nero encounters Agnus and Yamato and ends up fixing the blade, proving he is descendant of Sparda. From then on the variables changed.
Opening of Main HellGate is actually possible now, and Nero serves as excellent substitute to replace Dante.

All that I have said is covered in novel, here.

All in all this blood connection thing with Yamato for Hellgate is completely nil. It has nothing to do with it.
Because ever since the Order found broken Yamato, they always wished to unlock main Hellgate, well before Nero ever came into picture. His blood wasn't prerequisite back then not is it now.
_--------x---------x-----

TLDR
Visuals of power null are blatant, and have no satisfactory counter.
There's no connection between Hellgate and Nero's blood with Yamato.
Blood being needed as a prerequisite to have Nero get absorbed actually proves he had resistance originally, otherwise Saviour cannot absorb him normally.
Saviour doesn't need actively absorb anything, his exterior by itself is permeable in nature, pretty much any demonic entity can get absorbed in it upon contact.

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @DarkGrath

Apologies for the ping, but could you provide input when you have time? Above are the OP and the primary rebuttal to it

Edit: I was also asked to link this and this since they contain some important stuff, so there's that as well

 

[Deagonx]

This wasn't my argument. No one claimed the Demon World "chooses" not to absorb demons and only chooses to absorb humans. The Demon world, quite clearly, does not absorb humans or demons. The alleged "absorption" feat is corrupting the human world with Demon influence.

Neither human nor Demon can "resist" this because they are not the target, the environment around them is, and they cannot "resist" the world around them becoming demonic. That's not logical. The fact that the Demon world inflicts status debuffs to humans doesn't give demons "absorption resistance."


This is.... also not my argument? The Vicar needed to combine the sword with the blood of a descendant of Sparda. It wasn't something he needed to do to absorb Nero.

Neither the novelization nor the scene in the game actually suggest this. His hand stops glowing some time after he gets stabbed but it's never indicated that the sword took away his power.

Really weird to me that both of your arguments were directed that some Frankenstein version of my position.


This is plainly contradicted by the evidence. The Saviour is a solid statue, it only absorbs what the Vicar wants it to, and he didn't want to absorb Nero until he had gotten his blood on the sword to fulfill his plan (which is something he directly states.)

And my response to the rebuttal.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @DarkGrath

Apologies for the ping, but could you provide input when you have time? Above are the OP and the primary rebuttal to it

Edit: I was also asked to link this and this since they contain some important stuff, so there's that as well

I see the points, but I think the opposition's points make more sense to me, so you can list me under disagree.

 

[DarkGrath]

However, the scans don't support the claim. In the scans, the demon world is described as "replacing" the human world, it essentially spreading like a corruptive influence as it subsumes the human world, and this is occurring around Dante and Gilver as the fight is going on. "The Demon World is replacing yours. It will spread out from this nexus until finally everything is consumed."

Problematically... this isn't absorption under pretty much any interpretation I can imagine, and even if it were Dante and Gilver are not resisting anything, their environment is actively changing around them. So, arguably it should be removed from the page.

I don't think it's completely accurate to say Dante is not resisting 'anything', though what it is exactly they are resisting is not completely clear.

Gilver hefted his sword, seemingly recovered from Dante's last attack. "This place is a cancerous blight to incomplete souls like you. Do you know why? Can you feel instinctually?" "You tell me." Dante sneered, but he clutched his sword for reassurance. His breathing and heart rate were rising, just like when he descended into the basement below the hospital. He had barely been able to take on Jessica then, and he knew he would be unable to take on Gilver now. Just holding his sword seemed to sap his strength, and every breath unleashed a new wave of fire into his lungs.

With little context on the scene itself, I genuinely can't tell if this dialogue is trying to imply that the subsummation of the human world is what is causing this effect. But I could see why someone would infer this. After all, the world that they are standing in is being corrupted, and something is being sapped from Dante in the process. My only contention with that explanation is the phrase 'incomplete soul' - I don't know what Gilver was trying to say with this line (if he was saying it because Dante is half-human half-demon, that would be weird, owing to also being half-human half-demon himself), and it's been long enough since I've read up on the novel for me to remember.

Overall, I'm not sure what to make of this scan. I wouldn't assume it to be resistance to absorption on so little information, but it's quite possible context that I'm not aware of elaborates on that. If it does, it had ought to be linked on the profiles.

Oh, and for the record, since this has been a concern between Deagonx and Glassman - I have always interpreted the assimilation of the human world into the demon world depicted in DMC2 as literal, not just a corruption effect. But whether it is or isn't, it doesn't matter if we can't establish whether or not demons are being targeted by the assimilation. I consider that a more pressing line of inquiry.

Now, where Nero and Yamato are concerned, Nero was grabbed by a large statue/golem which could absorb things into it. The Vicar controlling it can willfully control when things are absorbed into it, and where they come back out. The statue holds Nero in place until the Vicar stabs him with the sword Yamato, at which point he is absorbed. The reasoning goes that Nero was resisting the absorption ability until the sword stabbed him, which negated his resistance and allowed the statue to absorb him.

However, this is not accurate. In the story the Vicar directly says that he needs to combine the sword with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is), and that is the reason why the Vicar waited until stabbing Nero with the sword to have him absorbed into the statue, not because he needed to do so to overcome Nero's absorption resistance.

I mostly agree with you on this.

I don't think Sanctus saying he 'needs to combine the sword with the blood of Sparda' necessarily meant that he was waiting to stab Nero with the Yamato before absorbing him. If you take this line literally, the issue with this interpretation is that he stabs Nero in his Devil Bringer arm, which explicitly does not have any blood on it and does not leave any residue on the blade. You can see this for yourself here:



I think 'needing to combine the sword with the blood of Sparda' is referring to him needing to absorb Nero into the Savior to advance the Savior to its final form, not literally putting Sparda's blood on the blade.

However, saying this, I hardly agree with the alternate interpretation that Sanctus outright needed to stab Nero with the Yamato, as he was otherwise incapable of absorbing him. I've played DMC4 extensively, and checked over the scene again to reference for this thread. I don't see when this is ever stated or implied. All that we see is the sequence of events - Nero gets grabbed by the Savior, Nero gets stabbed, Nero gets absorbed - with nothing to substantiate that the middle step was a requirement other than maybe the interpretive 'Escape is now impossible' line. One way or the other, it's a stretch and fails to address the multitude of alternate, valid interpretations of the scene.

Furthermore, regarding the Japanese text of the DMC4 scene:

I understood my body was being absorbed by God's/Savior's palm. There was no power left to resist.

'I had no power left to resist' is an expression used to refer to when someone can't muster up the willpower to fight back against something, which is exactly what's being described here. Nero is heavily wounded, fatigued, and couldn't save Kyrie or stop Sanctus, so he can't bring himself to fight back any longer. Even independently of the phrasing used in the official English translation, I don't consider this text to at all be proof that he previously had some special resistance to the Savior that was taken from him.

And regarding the Beasthead matters:

And in that moment, he and Dante both understood the reason why the Beastheads had never assimilated any of the demons that had carried it... "The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It's like a power transformer for souls!"

I consider this to be stating, quite unambiguously, that the Beastheads are intentionally not targeting demons in their assimilation powers. This obviously would not qualify as resistance, as we don't give resistances for simply not being the target of an ability.

TL;DR: I don't consider there to be any conclusive evidence in the Savior scene that Nero had a resistance to the Savior's absorption that was removed by the Yamato. I consider this to be a plausible interpretation, but ultimately a stretch that shouldn't be treated as an established fact on the profiles. I completely concur that the Beastheads are not targeting demons with their absorption powers, and shouldn't be used as a basis for resistance. Whether Dante/Gilver are resisting the subsummation of the environment in the DMC1 novel is something I'm not clear on - I wouldn't endorse keeping it on the profiles without further evidence, but I can't rule out the notion that more context would make it clearer one way or the other. If more context to what exactly is happening in this scene exists, I would like to be shown it. I consider the subsummation of the human world in DMC2 to be absorption, not simply corruption, but I don't think it's as relevant to the core issues of this thread as it has been portrayed.

Technically, you could say I am neutral due to the lack of clarity on the DMC1 novel feat. But if there is no further evidence to be presented for it that hasn't been presented yet in this thread, then I would say I agree with the OP and believe this resistance should be removed from the profiles without further evidence.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I think DarkGrath makes sense here.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Still disagree with the removal for Gilver’s and Glass’s reasons.

 

[Robo432343]

possible rating fra

 

[Deagonx]

I have always interpreted the assimilation of the human world into the demon world depicted in DMC2 as literal, not just a corruption effect. But whether it is or isn't, it doesn't matter if we can't establish whether or not demons are being targeted by the assimilation. I consider that a more pressing line of inquiry.

I do find that interpretation somewhat counterintuitive to my understanding of the concept of absorption, but I suppose my bigger issue was how either party could be interpreted as resisting it, given that it is the very environment that they are in that is being absorbed.

Imagine if they were teleported instead of this assimilation, and that's how they ended up in the Demon World. How could we say Gilver "resisted" the teleportation? I can't imagine any interpretation which would allow that. That's the thing I'm stuck on.

But overall I agree with what you said. Thank you for taking the time to analyze this.

 

[RedReaper]

With little context on the scene itself, I genuinely can't tell if this dialogue is trying to imply that the subsummation of the human world is what is causing this effect. But I could see why someone would infer this. After all, the world that they are standing in is being corrupted, and something is being sapped from Dante in the process. My only contention with that explanation is the phrase 'incomplete soul' - I don't know what Gilver was trying to say with this line (if he was saying it because Dante is half-human half-demon, that would be weird, owing to also being half-human half-demon himself), and it's been long enough since I've read up on the novel for me to remember.

Before the reveal of his half human heritage by the end when he dies, he heavily implies he's a full blooded demon-And he also was under Mundus' thumb, so it could simply be his delusion of the control he was under, his own lies/facade, or a consequence of them harnessing their powers differently. (As while Dante was being "affected," Gilver was being enhanced. Meaning he wasn't actually just talking out of his ass, making it unlikely to be him having false beliefs because there IS a tangible difference in effect here.)

Speaking of, though, it could fully also be because Dante only reclaimed his Name shortly before the fight, and was still getting used to his newfound powers-As in, he was "incomplete" because he barely BECAME himself and gained his power. This is important, because (1, la cheesy DMC3 cutscene) numerous (2, Deadly Fortune rough TL) times (3, DMC3 Prequel Manga & 4, VoV) their (5, DMC: TAS) souls (6, Better Alt TL of Deadly Fortune, confirms the Similarity of Souls in the TL) are the same and thus is their/is connected to their power. So by barely being himself, he would also literally barely have just gained his Soul and Power when he took in his Name against those Demons earlier. Especially when you remember that this Dante hasn't unlocked his Devil Trigger (his other half), MDT (his True Demonic Power), SDT (his TRUE FORM), you could reason Gilver was quite literally saying that despite the fact Dante had just became less human, he still wasn't quite his "true" self.

 

[Firestorm808]

I will have to look into the topic more, but at the moment, I am leaning toward the OP's side.

 

[Tanin_iver]

I will have to look into the topic more, but at the moment, I am leaning toward the OP's side.

I suggest u to look at Gilver's response for the opposition's arguments and state and elaborate if u have any objections so that we can clear up misconceptions.

Technically, you could say I am neutral due to the lack of clarity on the DMC1 novel feat.

We discussed this off-site and u did state that u haven't read Gilver's response, so I suggest u to do the same so that we can discuss further.

 

[Random-Helper323]

But if there is no further evidence to be presented for it that hasn't been presented yet in this thread, then I would say I agree with the OP and believe this resistance should be removed from the profiles without further evidence.

The Saviour didn't seem to be able to absorb either Dante or Nero after that. Dante made prolonged contact with it multiple times and Nero was walking around on its inner surface for a while, and both were fighting it. Why could it absorb Nero earlier but not either of them later? If they had no resistance this could have been a way to easily win against them.

 

[Firestorm808]

Allow me to go through this step by step.

Can someone summarize the root entities/objects that are confirmed to have the absorption ability?

If so, are there any conditions or limitations to this absorption ability?