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[DMC] Yamato/Nero Hax Removal
- Thread starter Deagonx
- Start date
- Status
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,211
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If you're not interested in debating anymore, then the votes are 4-0 in Deagon's favor and he can apply the changes ¯\(ツ)/¯
Or you could try to substantiate your points a little more so people coming into the thread know what you're talking about instead of having to solve your riddles three, but it's your choice.
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- #83
Why are you avoiding my question? That's odd. I'll ask again:
We know he needed to combine the sword and Nero's blood to proceed with his plan, which demonstrates a clear reason for him to wait to absorb Nero into the Savior in order to accomplish that. Why would we need to know what the reason was, if we know concretely that he needed to do that? I fail to see how that question impacts this CRT, so I'd like an explanation.
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Hard disagree with the OP for Gilver's reasons
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Untill this point, I have said what I needed to be said. Given all my points.
Let's see what the mods say.
Planck and Glass were waiting for my reply. Some other mods have been tagged as well.
Let's see what the mods say.
Planck and Glass were waiting for my reply. Some other mods have been tagged as well.
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- Thread starter
- #86
Ongoing? Gilver explicitly said he was done discussing the matter.
The reasoning that... an environmental change happening around demons and humans is somehow an absorption resistance for demons, and that Yamato deactivated this resistance despite this never being indicated and the story providing an entirely different reason why the vicar stabbed Nero with Yamato?
Okay, but you're still avoiding my question, which is odd. Why would we need to know his purpose in doing that if we already know he needed to do so for his plan? This appears to be key to your reasoning, but for some reason you keep avoiding elaboration. You were insistent on me providing some kind of personal theory for this, so why will you not explain how it is pertinent?
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Mostly read starting from GilverTheProtoAngelo's post and the arguments from there, as well as the OP and initial posts of the first page so apologies if I may have missed a few things.
The absorption and Beast Head abilities and resistances seem fine, though they're ultimately not the focus of the CRT so I'm surprised someone initially brought them up to begin with.
As for the core of the OP, I'm disagreeing with the CRT. Some decent points were brought up but the response to the rebuttals seems to rely more so on quibbling and semantics than otherwise, to me at least.
Was glass already pinged? I'm aware he was waiting for the main post from Gil to begin with.
The absorption and Beast Head abilities and resistances seem fine, though they're ultimately not the focus of the CRT so I'm surprised someone initially brought them up to begin with.
As for the core of the OP, I'm disagreeing with the CRT. Some decent points were brought up but the response to the rebuttals seems to rely more so on quibbling and semantics than otherwise, to me at least.
Was glass already pinged? I'm aware he was waiting for the main post from Gil to begin with.
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I'll drop a ping
@Theglassman12 Gilver's made his big post that I'm aware you were waiting for. Could you check it out?
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- Thread starter
- #90
Where in your mega post did you explain why you need an explanation for the vicar's plan when he outright stated he needed to combine the sword with Nero's blood to proceed with his plan?
Again, I completely fail to see how that information is relevant when the basic fact-of him needing to do so is explicitly stated, and completely contradicts the notion that he did so in order to deactivate this mythical unestablished resistance?
I mean, if you are absolutely hell-bent on avoiding this question because it's inconvenient to your argument, I won't stand in your way, but it's odd to see people agreeing with such specious reasoning.
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- #91
Oh, also, two things.
1) This is blatantly wrong:
2) This contradicts your own stance. If you are of the opinion that all demonic entities have resistance to absorption by default, then none of them would get absorbed by contact until being stabbed with Yamato.
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Disagree with the OP, Gilver’s extra context with the Beastheads and the DWE stuff plus how Nero’s resistance is bypassed makes it pretty clear cut.
There’s also the original Japanese text which flat out said that Nero no longer has the power to resist when getting hit by Yamato so the fact his resistance got negged is pretty blatant.
There’s also the original Japanese text which flat out said that Nero no longer has the power to resist when getting hit by Yamato so the fact his resistance got negged is pretty blatant.
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- 7,079
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- Thread starter
- #93
Fuji already debunked that earlier in the thread when Tony made that argument. Beastheads are designed to convert human souls into energy, Demons don't have resistance to absorption. Not sure what you mean by "the DWE stuff" but having an environment change around you wouldn't grant resistance to anyone in that environment. The fact that the Demon World fatigues non-Demons wouldn't incur a "resistance to absorption" and the notion of Nero's resistance being bypassed is... well, blatantly headcanon and the story tells us that's not the reason why the vicar stabbed him with the sword.
Gin also rebutted that the first time that argument was made:
Gin also rebutted that the first time that argument was made:
But, I sort of expected this, so I'll go ahead and update the tally.
This was also brought up in the last thread, but the English translation is simply "I had no way to resist."
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The reason why it matters what he needs his ingredients for is because in the game he uses the Yamato to open the Hellgate while keeping Nero seperate, inside the Saviour to be exact. Keeping in mind that accessing the demon world exactly like that Hellgate is a standard ability of the Yamato, and Agnus was already using its prior broken state to open imitation Hellgates, and he was working on restoring it to open the real one.
Meaning that the purpose he ended up using Yamato for had no need for Nero's blood, although he did need both items; he needed Nero's Sparda blood to power the Saviour, and he needed the Yamato to open the Hellgates. So technically he did need to "combine" them in the sense of needing to bring them both into his possession and plan, and originally he did need Nero's Sparda blood to fix Yamato. You're fixating on the statement about combining, but the things he actually does with the Yamato contradict this conclusion you've come to.
That raw translation also helps us understand better what happened to Nero, as it directly states he had no power left to resist right after being stabbed, and this aligns with his arm ceasing to glow in the game at the same time.
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- Thread starter
- #95
Frankly, I have no interest in entertaining an argument that depends on contradicting the characters in the game about their own plans and intentions.
The vicar directly states he needs to combine Nero's blood with Yamato in order to proceed with his plan. You're arguing that he didn't need to combine Nero's blood with Yamato for his plans. Guess which one I'm inclined to believe?
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Anyway, I'm neutral, but slightly leaning towards agreeing.
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We prioritize the jp over the English one on this site normally, unless ofc you want to change that fact, also no we never brought up the jp translation in the last thread, don’t know where you got that fromFuji already debunked that earlier in the thread when Tony made that argument. Beastheads are designed to convert human souls into energy, Demons don't have resistance to absorption. Not sure what you mean by "the DWE stuff" but having an environment change around you wouldn't grant resistance to anyone in that environment. The fact that the Demon World fatigues non-Demons wouldn't incur a "resistance to absorption" and the notion of Nero's resistance being bypassed is... well, blatantly headcanon and the story tells us that's not the reason why the vicar stabbed him with the sword.
Gin also rebutted that the first time that argument was made:
But, I sort of expected this, so I'll go ahead and update the tally.
This was also brought up in the last thread, but the English translation is simply "I had no way to resist."
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- Thread starter
- #98
This is an English translation of the JP by two translators. I am inclined to prioritize a professional translation over a non-professional one, but frankly even if the scan says something to the effect of "I have no strength left to resist" I wouldn't even say that's the stellar attestation of Absorption Resistance you would want it to be. He's been thrashing around as hard as he can in a statue's hand and gotten approximately nothing done. And given the complete lack of any evidence suggesting he had this resistance in the first place I'd say such an interpretation is very far fetched.
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Well that's just rude, isn't it.
And the events in the game directly contradict your interpretation of a statement that can be interpreted as somewhat flowery. As I said, his statement of combining them could be interpreted as bringing them into his possession, as he did need both Nero's Sparda blood and the Yamato. The fact that what he ended up using the Yamato for was something it is used for all the time by several characters throughout the series with no Sparda blood needed supports this.
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- Thread starter
- #100
Flowery? Sorry, that's your argument? That he looks at the sword, remarks "When your Sparda blood and this sword are combined, we will be able to proceed" and then stabs Nero with the sword (which gets his Sparda blood on the sword), but the notion of combining the blood and the sword are... metaphorical?
So, when Sparda originally sealed the gate by combining Yamato, his own blood, and the blood of a human priestess, was that also flowery language?
Incredible. Just incredible.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 23,273
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First of all, the gates that Sparda sealed with the blood of a priestess was the Temen-Ni-Gru (Damn there Vergil need the perfect amulets in the equation), never use Yamato to sealed Temen-Ni-Gru, this is completely different gates
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- Thread starter
- #102
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 23,273
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I know you're referring to Hell Gate, however the example about ''combining Yamato, his own blood, and the blood of a human priestess, was that also flowery language?'' that you gave is completely something else that happened much earlier, Long before Sparda even arrived at Fortuna in the first place, the Hell gates were not sealed with the blood of a human priestess, that was the Temen-Ni-Gru, I'm referring to this part
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- Thread starter
- #104
I've read otherwise, but it's more or less moot. The fact of the matter is that using Sparda blood pertaining to a plan to open up the main hell gate is in alignment with lore elements and there's no reason to think of it as "flowery" when it's stated so matter-of-fact.
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that’s a you problem, we always put a translation of the jp raws that is done by people who knows the language over the English(mainly due to some translations not being clear or miss translated, so we take the actual text and translate it to see if it says something that makes the context clearer) one due to the jp being the original source of the material(as far as ik and to other reasons which I haven’t checked), also it says no power left to resist so stop twisting it to sound like something else, this is a direct showing of you not even willing to properly read the scans that are being presented to you.
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- #106
I am not sure where you are misunderstanding me. The scan I posted is a translation of the JP raws done by people who know the language.
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- #108
Bruh, you guys just tried to argue that "combining Yamato with the blood of Sparda" was "flowery language" because it debunked it.
You haven't engaged with the vast majority of the argument and even Gilver's main responses was just directed at several strawmen like "he needed to get Nero's blood to deactivate his resistance" which is not a stance I ever took.
You've all still failed to explain how the human world being "absorbed" by the demon world would confer any notion of resistance to demons who are also experiencing this change in environment and not "resisting it" and Gilver just took the stance that any demonic entity that touches Savior would get absorbed right into it, which means demons don't have resistance to absorption.
Far from "grasping at straws", the opposition can't even figure out what their argument is.
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So we're going to ignore the nexus world being able to affect demons despite being residents of the world? Or the nobodies stuff, ok gotcha, so you have no argument left beyond saying "there is no argument".
Says the guy who isn't remotely trying to refute what the translation says after Nero gets stabbed by Yamato where he literally says "there was no power left to resist". You're not even trying to debate at this point, you're flat out ignoring what's said right there in the text just to keep arguing your point.
Says the guy who isn't remotely trying to refute what the translation says after Nero gets stabbed by Yamato where he literally says "there was no power left to resist". You're not even trying to debate at this point, you're flat out ignoring what's said right there in the text just to keep arguing your point.
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- Thread starter
- #110
Feel free to elaborate how and why you think that refutes my point. I'm not even sure what you're referring to or how it would imply a "resistance to absorption" for demons which, thus far, has been completely and utterly debunked.
Bruh.
This was also brought up in the last thread, but the English translation is simply "I had no way to resist."
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The fact you're not refuting what Gilver's saying isn't helping you at all here.
You can keep quoting the same post over and over again, doesn't change anything, especially when professional translations can mess up what was originally said in the first place, you act like anime and video game mistranslations aren't a thing that's happened before. Plus the translation we have is from someone who knows the language as well so telling me the translation is done by professionals doesn't amount to shit if they messed up what was said in the first place. refute the statement or let the rest of the staff vote because you're not adding anything new here.
You can keep quoting the same post over and over again, doesn't change anything, especially when professional translations can mess up what was originally said in the first place, you act like anime and video game mistranslations aren't a thing that's happened before. Plus the translation we have is from someone who knows the language as well so telling me the translation is done by professionals doesn't amount to shit if they messed up what was said in the first place. refute the statement or let the rest of the staff vote because you're not adding anything new here.
KingNanaya
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Malevolent Kitchen
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Malfunctioning shrine
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- Thread starter
- #114
I've refuted everything Gilver said, much of which was simply strawmanning me. If you think his arguments were persuasive feel free to take the time to properly debate it, it would be a refreshing change from the usual "FRA a bad argument and say nothing else of substance."
I already have. You haven't even attempted to respond to it, just throwing out taunts.
That already happened. All of the arguments you've referred to have been debunked and you don't seem to have anything further to say, and Gilver has already indicated an unwillingness to continue or even explain his points further.
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Where's the refute on the demons being affected by the Nexus world when before they weren't affected to begin with?
No you haven't, you're bringing up another translation that doesn't line up word for word with the original text.
For someone who claims its all debunked you sure keep dodging the japanese text since it goes against your point with how blatant it is. Yeah, he's not continuing because he's already made his point, no need to repeat what's already said if the opposition has nothing left to add.
No you haven't, you're bringing up another translation that doesn't line up word for word with the original text.
For someone who claims its all debunked you sure keep dodging the japanese text since it goes against your point with how blatant it is. Yeah, he's not continuing because he's already made his point, no need to repeat what's already said if the opposition has nothing left to add.
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I think you should ask this question in another thread.
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- #118
Oh easy: It has literally nothing to do with Resistance to Absorption and neither you nor Gilver have even been able to coherently explain why you think it's relevant.
Lol, he's not continuing because his stance is indefensible and it benefits him to avoid letting that get further exposed by answer my questions or attempting a substantive response.
There might not be one (or at least, a good one). This verse has a looooooot of really specious abilities that I intend to fix over the coming weeks.
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Despite it being literally one of the effects of the demon world's presence and the demons being affected means the whole "demons by default aren't affected" is complete headcanon since they shouldn't be affected at all by the nexus world to begin with by your own logic.
So like how you refuse to actually debate the japanese text beyond using a "professional translation" that didn't get the text one to one, rendering it indefensible? ok.
So like how you refuse to actually debate the japanese text beyond using a "professional translation" that didn't get the text one to one, rendering it indefensible? ok.
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I'm leaning towards disagree, although I do see merit in the OP's points. Leave me as neutral
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