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I wouldn't fret over it too much. Its just like Vergil's case.
Besides we don't even know half the story of what is going on in the damn game. We still have a lot to discover.
We just have to keep patience about us as more information will be revealed.
It's natural we come along some loose ends when discussing PoC as it is now, but nothing to get worked up over. We just accept some stuff is missing and wait for future.
That's what I meant by leaving POC with a home work, it gotta explain stuff

I've seen Tony talking about the same thing and I disagree, Vergil's case is way better than Pluto, but that discussion is useless for now, let's wait as you said. What we can do is finish this thread, if nobody is against my model that came from Mister's suggestion, I'll add it and we can close this
 
That's what I meant by leaving POC with a home work, it gotta explain stuff
Ye

What we can do is finish this thread, if nobody is against my model that came from Mister's suggestion, I'll add it and we can close this

It's a complicated scaling so we can't expect somethimg really short, but I made a few changes and erased repeated links, should be fine this way
Fought and sealed all the Demon Kings
Replace this with "sealed various demon lords" since Sealed all Demon Kings is absurd claim.
 
Replace this with "sealed various demon lords" since Sealed all Demon Kings is absurd claim.
It should be all Demon Kings considering that Mundus was ruling the DW from the moment he broke thought the seal up to DMC3 whitheout any problems, if was more Demon Kings in that point in timeline not sealed, Mundus would not be able to commander the DW so easely, ordering every demon to try to hunt and kill Tony and Vergil, ordering Machiavelli to create the Black Knights, etc...
 
That's still a factually wrong statement to make. We don't even know how many more Demon Lords there are. We already have indications of more than Pluto and Medea with what evidence we have and we don’t know anything about those in DW. Also we are talking about Weak Sparda feats of sealing... not the prime one. Weak Sparda didn't seal Mundus for example.
 
That's still a factually wrong statement to make. We don't even know how many more Demon Lords there are. We already have indications of more than Pluto and Medea with what evidence we have and we don’t know anything about those in DW. Also we are talking about Weak Sparda feats of sealing... not the prime one. Weak Sparda didn't seal Mundus for example.
Well, fair enougth.
 
Is the same case Bolverk here my boy, he lived agaist Dante because of plot, he literally killed Argosax in one sigle fight, are you goin to say that Bolverk>Argosax now?
That's not how it works, Arius had the plot armor because he is the one pushing the story forward, kill him and the game ends there. Bolverk had none of that, he didn't even had plot, he just showed up and fought Dante.

Like I said, I have no problems with that part, I really don't care if Bolverk scales higher.
Same case of Bolverk, he only lived because of plot, BtN literally confirms that.
I already explained that. BtN confirms literally nothing except that it was an easy job for Dante.

If I crush 2 ants and one of them survives and I have to crush it again it means the second ant was tougher than the first one. It was an easy job but the second ant was overall stronger/more durable.
We don't knwo the details in their fight sure, but is not hard to imagine that Sparda stood ground against him, since to seal him away someone would have to be able to fight him or otherwise they would been destroyed in mere seconds, there is only one guy in that time that could stand a chance against a Demon King in DMC.
That's the problem, we are assuming that sparda had to fight and gain time or some other thing like that. We have no proof, we have no information about it. What if all the clan was the one gaining time while Sparda did the seal? What if Sparda only got there and sealed him immediately? What if the whole clan fought alongside him while only 1 person did the seal? what if the clan had warriors capable of holding down argosax? What if Sparda almost died in the battle? "What if this? or what if that?"

It's all speculation based on the little information we have. We scale sparda because he was there and he survived but that's all. In fact I think we should keep his sealed key with a "unknown, possibly x tier" instead.

Responded above, same case as Argosax, and also one thing to mention here, Medea mention that she need to recover her powers despite being free of the seal whitheout needing to break out of it, guess we know who was the one responsible for her being weaker right?
Same thing as above, its all full of "what ifs". She needing to recover her powers isn't proof or anything. Hell in game there are crystals that Dante has to destroy to keep her from getting her powers back, what if her powers were separated by the family or the seal just drained her or something else?

Pluto also mentions that since Sparda is gone, ''they era is finally beginning'', that's literally confirm that Sparda was very responsible for their downfalll, and that he treats Medeas as comparable to him.
Again, we don't know how the whole ordeal went down. For all we know Sparda could have just showed up and sealed her ass without any trouble.

Pluto treating her with respect tells me nothing. This is the same guy who decided to save the human world (what is basically a speck of dust in the wind) just because he could.

Pluto statement kinda already confirm that.
What statement?
The problem is that we don't know hou much power Dante used to somp the ''Ant'' and we can't assume he used alot of his powers because that would break scaling.
That doesn't change the simple fact that said "ant" survived what the others couldn't. It doesn't break the scaling at all either, Bolverk is his own separated thing in DMC2, he doesn't scale to anyone nor anyone scales to him.

If you mention Sparda then bad news because that was before the rebellion, not during DMC2.

Responded above and again, Pluto already confirm that by seeing that ''they era was begun''
Already debunked that. That line is all the proof you have for her scaling to the other demon kings? That means absolutely nothing.

Pluto teatred her as someone comparable to him my boy, are you gonna still keep seeing that she is a weakening when the Demon King hinself already recognizes her as his comparable?
He treated her with respect which coming from Pluto isn't a great deal. If Mundus did it then you would have a point but from Pluto it is useless and doesn't work at all.
Sparda wouldn't seal Medea if he was capable of killing her. He only resorts to sealing when he can't kill or its some utilitarian purpose such as Sins. So yes she is comparable to Sparda this is clearly the "can't kill" case.
You know that "can't kill" is not enough to scale her. What if she just has some uber immortality or regen or some other bs like that? Mundus case is obvious, argosax is definetively stronger than sealed sparda but medea has nothing, not even the little background we have behind her sealing is enought to make her scale or hint us about it.
 
That's not how it works, Arius had the plot armor because he is the one pushing the story forward, kill him and the game ends there. Bolverk had none of that, he didn't even had plot, he just showed up and fought Dante.
He was the guardian of Argosax's temple is stated in the DMC2 guidebook, Bolverk actually have some plot point in the game actually.
Like I said, I have no problems with that part, I really don't care if Bolverk scales higher.
Well, if we go your route we need to say that Bolverk have a very busted RE that alows him to macth more and less Dante's powers, dunno if people here is gonna accept that tho.
I already explained that. BtN confirms literally nothing except that it was an easy job for Dante.

If I crush 2 ants and one of them survives and I have to crush it again it means the second ant was tougher than the first one. It was an easy job but the second ant was overall stronger/more durable.
What i said above, depends if people accept Bolverk having a insanely busted RE, considering that pluto and Vergil were in a same simular situation as Bolverk and did not got a insanely boost in power, i'm dunno if that is gonna fly imo
That's the problem, we are assuming that sparda had to fight and gain time or some other thing like that. We have no proof, we have no information about it. What if all the clan was the one gaining time while Sparda did the seal? What if Sparda only got there and sealed him immediately? What if the whole clan fought alongside him while only 1 person did the seal? what if the clan had warriors capable of holding down argosax? What if Sparda almost died in the battle? "What if this? or what if that?"

It's all speculation based on the little information we have. We scale sparda because he was there and he survived but that's all. In fact I think we should keep his sealed key with a "unknown, possibly x tier" instead.
Is because of everytime they talk about the wars that happened in the past, either being Mundus and his army vs Pluto and his army or Mundus and his army vs Argosax and his army they still they always give emphasis of how Sparda was important on their defeats lore wise, even Pluto mentions that in PoC, which shows that Sparda is something else, he always portrayed as someone important in the series that why he scale to the Demon Kings at that time, even if we lack all details of their defeats.
Same thing as above, its all full of "what ifs". She needing to recover her powers isn't proof or anything. Hell in game there are crystals that Dante has to destroy to keep her from getting her powers back, what if her powers were separated by the family or the seal just drained her or something else?
Well, fair on the seals since Gallens mentioned that some time ago, but i'm forgot this detail, however, that still go back to what i'm said above of how they aways portrain Sparda as being someone very important on their defeats.
Pluto treating her with respect tells me nothing. This is the same guy who decided to save the human world (what is basically a speck of dust in the wind) just because he could.
Fair on Pluto being a nice guy when it comes to others, can't go against this.
What statement?
The one of ''their era was begun''
That doesn't change the simple fact that said "ant" survived what the others couldn't. It doesn't break the scaling at all either, Bolverk is his own separated thing in DMC2, he doesn't scale to anyone nor anyone scales to him.

If you mention Sparda then bad news because that was before the rebellion, not during DMC2.
Well, this goes to what i'm said above if people accept Bolverk having a insaley RE that surpass everyone in the series including Vergil and Pluto, which we have to ask others opinions on this.
Already debunked that. That line is all the proof you have for her scaling to the other demon kings? That means absolutely nothing.


He treated her with respect which coming from Pluto isn't a great deal. If Mundus did it then you would have a point but from Pluto it is useless and doesn't work at all.
Pluto still says that their era was begging my boy, which is a direct reference to their status of strongest beings in DMC universe.
You know that "can't kill" is not enough to scale her. What if she just has some uber immortality or regen or some other bs like that? Mundus case is obvious, argosax is definetively stronger than sealed sparda but medea has nothing, not even the little background we have behind her sealing is enought to make her scale or hint us about it.
That require wayyy too much assumptions to say that she have something so special instead of going with the most obvious one that she is a Demon Queen, was sealed by Sparda with the help of someone else, she being lower then Nighmare is laughable when the ttle for ''Demon Kings'' is not something that will give for a bunch of demons that are Mundus's generals level.

Comon man, you know this better than everybody else what the title of Demon Kings represents in teh verse, Sid saying that Abigail rivals Demon Kings in power is not impressive anymore i guess, he only is on that tier now because of stomping Dante and of course, assuming Dante was not holding back on their fist macth.
 
He was the guardian of Argosax's temple is stated in the DMC2 guidebook, Bolverk actually have some plot point in the game actually.
That's like how the siamese are stated to protect the clock tower, literally zero plot beyond a quick description.
Well, if we go your route we need to say that Bolverk have a very busted RE that alows him to macth more and less Dante's powers, dunno if people here is gonna accept that tho.
Why? He didn't match Dante at all.

I think you are misunderstanding me, just because He managed to survive doesn't mean that Dante had to try harder or that he was challenged or something like that. His best feat is only that, surviving a fight against a Dante that killed everything else.
What i said above, depends if people accept Bolverk having a insanely busted RE, considering that pluto and Vergil were in a same simular situation as Bolverk and did not got a insanely boost in power, i'm dunno if that is gonna fly imo
Same as above. What do you mean about Pluto? He never got boosted or anything like that. Vergil case is obvious as ****, he ate a fruit, got 1 month pumped by blood and then got his whole self back.
Is because of everytime they talk about the wars that happened in the past, either being Mundus and his army vs Pluto and his army or Mundus and his army vs Argosax and his army they still they always give emphasis of how Sparda was important on their defeats lore wise, even Pluto mentions that in PoC, which shows that Sparda is something else, he always portrayed as someone important in the series that why he scale to the Demon Kings at that time, even if we lack all details of their defeats.
Here is the thing, most of the time Sparda is only called his general, his strongest demon or some other thing like that. Yeah, he could be stronger than 99% of the demons while the other 1% are gods compared to him. The problem with pluto is that Mundus is specifically stated to create an army to fight him and that Sparda is stated to be "one of the reasons why he got the throne".

Said line is vague and doesn't present any scaling, more so since his job was being a general and there was an army to fight pluto. If you think logically then Sparda only did his job as a general commanding the army, that's all.

If and a big IF Sparda was that strong then the war against Argosax would have been tipped easily towards Mundus and they should have easily conquered the demon world, instead we have a standstill in which neither army can take more than what they already had. The defeat of Argosax comes centuries later, when Sparda was past his prime and he had an unknown number of demons helping him.

Pluto mentioning Sparda in PoC is irrelevant since by that point Sparda has already reached his prime, himself off and died. We have can inquire that now that Sparda is gone (he is dead remember) they won't have any opposition. They aren't talking about some long past when Sparda's power was feared, they are talking about the present era and how there isn't anyone to twart whatever plans they have.

Well, fair on the seals since Gallens mentioned that some time ago, but i'm forgot this detail, however, that still go back to what i'm said above of how they aways portrain Sparda as being someone very important on their defeats.
I mean, yeah, he is the one that makes the seals, of course he is important.

The one of ''their era was begun''
No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left (except for Dante but they are understimating him and with good reason since he and Pluto are perfectly equal, one more demon and dante dies)

Well, this goes to what i'm said above if people accept Bolverk having a insaley RE that surpass everyone in the series including Vergil and Pluto, which we have to ask others opinions on this.
I said this above, but Bolverk doesn't get any RE or some power boost in DMC2. We know he has been alive and well since Argosax took control of the demon world and when he was sealed by the clan and Sparda. He, like any other demon, could have been getting stronger in those 2 thousand years and surviving a stomp is the fruit of that.

Again, it doesn't mean he becomes stronger in a few moments or that Dante had to put any more force, he just had to crush him again.
Pluto still says that their era was begging my boy, which is a direct reference to their status of strongest beings in DMC universe.
"No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left"

That require wayyy too much assumptions to say that she have something so special instead of going with the most obvious one that she is a Demon Queen, was sealed by Sparda with the help of someone else, she being lower then Nighmare is laughable when the ttle for ''Demon Kings'' is not something that will give for a bunch of demons that are Mundus's generals level.
It's better than to assume she is equal to demon kings just because she has the tittle of "Queen". This whole argument only exist because she has the tittle and nothing else. She was sealed by Sparda without any trouble and the guardian family are there to keep watch and nothing else, no statement of her wiping out an army while Sparda was helping, no scaling to any other demons, no feats of her own, nothing.

You say that as if any demon was capable of what Nightmare is, he is pretty much the strongest thing by lightyears compared to the other generals. A demon on his level and with the others sealed can take the tittle of demon king if they so much as wished so and who's gonna say no? Phantom? Beowulf? Asmodeus? And again, all this is because of her tittle, nothing else.

Comon man, you know this better than everybody else what the title of Demon Kings represents in teh verse, Sid saying that Abigail rivals Demon Kings in power is not impressive anymore i guess, he only is on that tier now because of stomping Dante and of course, assuming Dante was not holding back on their fist macth.
It represent the peak of power for demons but what demons? Wiki talking most of them are between tier 7 to tier 4, bring someone who can fart a galaxy into existence and no other demon around can do a shit if they declare themselves as King or Queen.

The gap between something like a general (Griffon) and a weapong like Nightmare is stupid to the point that if Nightmare could declare itself as king while Mundus is sealed then no demon would challenge that shit.

The problem with your little example there is that Abigail is stated to rival demon kings, where is Medea statement about her rivaling Demon Kings? Oh right, there isn't one. Give me a single statement saying she can rival/is on par/can fight/ fought a demon king and then we are golden with the scaling otherwise this won't go anywhere.
 
That's like how the siamese are stated to protect the clock tower, literally zero plot beyond a quick description.
Is stated to protect the Argosax's temple, is stated to be a rival to Sparda and to be the most skilled warrior on Argosax's command all this by lore of the game, kinda point that he does have some reason to survive at least one fight against Dante, since he is supose to be the strongest demon on Argosax's command and also to have rivalized Sparda in the past, not just a randon demon that have the bad luck to cross path with Dante.

But anyway, lets leave Bolverk untouched for now if we are not gonna reacth a conclusion about him.
Why? He didn't match Dante at all.

I think you are misunderstanding me, just because He managed to survive doesn't mean that Dante had to try harder or that he was challenged or something like that. His best feat is only that, surviving a fight against a Dante that killed everything else.
When i'm said ''more and less on Dante's level'' i'm was refering that if Bolverk became stronger then Argosax hinself in DMC2, he will be closer to Dante in the God Tier scaling, since Argosax TDE=Mundus<Alt Mundus=<DMC2 Bolverk<<Vol 2 Dante=<Chen with BH<<<<Chen's RE one second after the fight start=Vol 2 Dante's RE<<<<Chen growing stronger in the fight>Dante keeping up Chen<<<<Dante's Post another RE boost<DMC2 Dante

Well, looking the scaling here, there is a pretty high gap here, so i will take back what i'm said earlier, it did not look that big in my mind when he looked the scaling before lul
Same as above. What do you mean about Pluto? He never got boosted or anything like that. Vergil case is obvious as ****, he ate a fruit, got 1 month pumped by blood and then got his whole self back.
Demons get more demonic power whatever their hits their opponents or got hit, which is a ability that every demons and their mommy have.
Here is the thing, most of the time Sparda is only called his general, his strongest demon or some other thing like that. Yeah, he could be stronger than 99% of the demons while the other 1% are gods compared to him. The problem with pluto is that Mundus is specifically stated to create an army to fight him and that Sparda is stated to be "one of the reasons why he got the throne".

Said line is vague and doesn't present any scaling, more so since his job was being a general and there was an army to fight pluto. If you think logically then Sparda only did his job as a general commanding the army, that's all.

If and a big IF Sparda was that strong then the war against Argosax would have been tipped easily towards Mundus and they should have easily conquered the demon world, instead we have a standstill in which neither army can take more than what they already had. The defeat of Argosax comes centuries later, when Sparda was past his prime and he had an unknown number of demons helping him.

Pluto mentioning Sparda in PoC is irrelevant since by that point Sparda has already reached his prime, himself off and died. We have can inquire that now that Sparda is gone (he is dead remember) they won't have any opposition. They aren't talking about some long past when Sparda's power was feared, they are talking about the present era and how there isn't anyone to twart whatever plans they have.
Well, fair points there Tony, can't say that you don't have good reasonings there, so maybe just leaving Sparda with two keys for now is good enougth?
No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left (except for Dante but they are understimating him and with good reason since he and Pluto are perfectly equal, one more demon and dante dies)
Mundus is not sealed he was already broke thought the seal by the time of BtN events, unless you are talking about the seal between the HW and DW, then yeah, you are right on that.
I said this above, but Bolverk doesn't get any RE or some power boost in DMC2. We know he has been alive and well since Argosax took control of the demon world and when he was sealed by the clan and Sparda. He, like any other demon, could have been getting stronger in those 2 thousand years and surviving a stomp is the fruit of that.

Again, it doesn't mean he becomes stronger in a few moments or that Dante had to put any more force, he just had to crush him again.
Bolverk was sealed like all the others ones, so he training in the timeframe between the time that he was defeated by Sparta and eventually sealed is very unlikely. But anyway, let's leave Bolverk alone for now since no agreement on both parties atm
"No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left"
Commented about this a bit above
It's better than to assume she is equal to demon kings just because she has the tittle of "Queen". This whole argument only exist because she has the tittle and nothing else. She was sealed by Sparda without any trouble and the guardian family are there to keep watch and nothing else, no statement of her wiping out an army while Sparda was helping, no scaling to any other demons, no feats of her own, nothing.
There is not a single proof that she was sealed with easy by Sparda, we don't have any proof of that, just becasue of the clan got wiped by Argosax don't means that they are compable in power, so lets not just assume stuff here plz, but anyway fine, we wait for Medea feats before putting her as compared to Pluto.
You say that as if any demon was capable of what Nightmare is, he is pretty much the strongest thing by lightyears compared to the other generals. A demon on his level and with the others sealed can take the tittle of demon king if they so much as wished so and who's gonna say no? Phantom? Beowulf? Asmodeus? And again, all this is because of her tittle, nothing else.
Rippers can since you guys put them above everything in the verse with the exception of the God Tiers

Ok, we wait for the feats for Medea before the 2-C scaling like i'm said above
It represent the peak of power for demons but what demons? Wiki talking most of them are between tier 7 to tier 4, bring someone who can fart a galaxy into existence and no other demon around can do a shit if they declare themselves as King or Queen.

The gap between something like a general (Griffon) and a weapong like Nightmare is stupid to the point that if Nightmare could declare itself as king while Mundus is sealed then no demon would challenge that shit.
We are talking about the era where Pluto was the Demon King, so the comparesion is not really the same imo, but like i'm said earlier, lets wait for Medea feats to make everyone happy here.
The problem with your little example there is that Abigail is stated to rival demon kings, where is Medea statement about her rivaling Demon Kings? Oh right, there isn't one. Give me a single statement saying she can rival/is on par/can fight/ fought a demon king and then we are golden with the scaling otherwise this won't go anywhere.
Well, there is a problem with Abigail too if not every Demon Kings is 2-C Tony, Sid mentions that Abigail can rival ''Demon Kings'', but the problem is, what Demon Kings he is talking about? We have alot of then, and without a direct mention of being either Pluto, Argosax and Mundus, Abigail scaling is not suficient to reacth that level then, a ''likely 2-C'' is the best thing you could put for him because fighting Demon Kings is a vague line by himself if we don't put all of then even above Nightmare.

And don't use Dante to say he is that strong, Dante hold back alot of times as even mentioned in Deadly Fortune by himself, he even mention in the second time that he was going to not make mistakes anymore, so yeah, he did not treat Sid with Abigal's powers serius there.
 
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I'm not reading all that but you told me in discord you agreed to leave Medea as unknown and Bolverk the same, right?
Yeap, lets leave on unknow for now since this is not going nowhere and we have more important CTRs to make like the Alt Mundus thread.
Give me a summary of what is going on, I forgot
Like i'm said let's leave things for now at it is when it comes to Bolverk and Medea. Just add Sparda, Bolverk, V and PoC Dante scans and bê done It.

So if nobody have a problem with that, then thread finished, i guess.
 
What changes for PoC Dante tho? As far as I can see its the same just adding scans also, why is V getting tier 2?
He is going from being weaker then Pluto to comparable to him in PoC along with the scans. V's is the source of his summons powers, so he have tier 2 with his source, but is not combat applicable anyway.
 
fine by me, kinda iffy in the V thing
Well, considering they start to get weaker the moment he start dying by losing demonic power, there is some consistency there, that's is the reason that we don't treat Malphas as comparable to Nightmare in the fist place, and V is capable to canalize his magic on his cane to hurt Cavalier Angelo, which uses Trish as his power source, who scale to tier 6, likely 4 here in VS, so he having a 2-C power source is not that hard to imagine, is just his body that is too weak to handle that level of power.

And also since we found this some days ago, Nightmare is comparable to DMC1 Dante in power, so i'm going to propose a minor upgrade for him here along with changing V's power source to 2-C instead of Low 2-C.

Nightmare


Attack Potency; Low Multiverse level (Repeatedly stated to be able to casually destroy the Demon World and its entire structure, with the Demon World being stated to be infinity in size three times and also being a 4D structure. Fought and survived against DMC1 Dante three times and was stated to be a tough fight for him along with Nightmare getting more stronger on each encounter)

Speed: Immeasurable: (Kept up with DMC1 Dante and was getting more faster on each encounter)


Lifting Strength: Immeasurable (Capable of casually lifting the entire structure of the Demon World. Matched Dante's strenght and was getting more stronger on each encounter

Durability: Low Multiverse level (Took hits from DMC1 Dante and was getting more durable on each encounter)

Dunno if this from Dante need to be changed or reworded ''Was only rivaled by his brother, Vergil, who was Nelo Angelo at that time'', but at least should be added to his and Nelo Angelo's profile that Nelo Angelo was the only one to macth Dante's skills and powers as his equal in the game along with him being capable to kill him in one ocaasion and was stated to be growing stronger and faster on eacth figth and when he removed his dark helmet, Nelo's vision and reaction speed increases.
 
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Sigh
I am fine as well, but we need to give Reactive Evolution to Nightmare as well for increasing in power, speed, hax, resistance etc.

And be sure to apply immeasurable speed as reaction and combat speed only, since we know for a fact from lore Nightmare moves slow.

And be sure mention Nightmare is low2C normally but 2C/Immeasurable only after RE.
By default Nightmare is still low2C, atleast for now. 2C only applies to Original Nightmare at his peak in 3rd fight.
V gets the same treatment, we don't know whether his Nightmare scales to default one or evolved one. So maybe we should just go with low2C for V/Nightmare. I think with V's performance against Malphas and how resistance scales. I wouldn't scale V's Nightmare to 2C. So his profile should still be low2C.
 
And be sure mention Nightmare is low2C normally but 2C/Immeasurable only after RE.
By default Nightmare is still low2C, atleast for now. 2C only applies to Original Nightmare at his peak in 3rd fight.
No, if Nightmare can already fight and annoy dante two times prior the third fight, then is first fight scales.
 
Sigh
I am fine as well, but we need to give Reactive Evolution to Nightmare as well for increasing in power, speed, hax, resistance etc.
This is already covered in the Demon Physiology, when they mention that demons get more power if their hit or get hit and also because of DF scan of demons regeneration
And be sure to apply immeasurable speed as reaction and combat speed only, since we know for a fact from lore Nightmare moves slow.
Not really, he is fast demon, he casually even blitz Griffon in VOV, dunno where people are using gameplay to say he is slower then the others summons.
And be sure mention Nightmare is low2C normally but 2C/Immeasurable only after RE.
By default Nightmare is still low2C, atleast for now. 2C only applies to Original Nightmare at his peak in 3rd fight.
V gets the same treatment, we don't know whether his Nightmare scales to default one or evolved one. So maybe we should just go with low2C for V/Nightmare. I think with V's performance against Malphas and how resistance scales. I wouldn't scale V's Nightmare to 2C. So his profile should still be low2C.
As Efi pointed out, Dante mentions that the second battle was hard then the fist one, and they mention later that he tormented Dante two times before the final fight,s o he scale from the fist fight with him.

V and the summons were weakened by the lack of DE tho, they mention that in VOV, that's why they can't even outrun her.
 
This is already covered in the Demon Physiology, when they mention that demons get more power if their hit or get hit and also because of DF scan of demons regeneration
It's quite obvious Nightmare is cut above the rest. You don't find other demons going low2C to 2C/Immeasurable over course of 2 fights, neither do their hax improve at such an alarming rate.

Not really, he is fast demon, he casually even blitz Griffon in VOV, dunno where people are using gameplay to say he is slower then the others summons.
This how he blitz'd 1 , 2. Where do you see movement? It's clearly combat speed.

When did I mention gameplay?? I said lore.


As Efi pointed out, Dante mentions that the second battle was hard then the fist one, and they mention later that he tormented Dante two times before the final fight,s o he scale from the fist fight with him.
Obviously he evolved, but he still started out at his default. And again we have seen many opponents give Dante trouble when he is holding back. I am pretty sure we can find similar statements for Griffon and Phantom.... what do we do then?? Upgrade them to 2C too??
V and the summons were weakened by the lack of DE tho, they mention that in VOV, that's why they can't even outrun her.
I am talking about hax and resistances. Its weaker than Malphas.
Meanwhile Mundus's version of Nightmare even affected Dante near God lvls of Physiology in later fights through evolution. Meanwhile Malphas can't even hax Nero.

Since hax/resistances evolve parallely to AP/speed we can see V's Nightmare lag behind Mundus's Nightmare after evolution.
 
Dante could be holding back... just like he did against Griffon or Phantom.
No reason to hold back that much, he knows how destructive nightmare and what it could potentially happen even before fighting
Even if he is holding back the way you saying, he would hold less the moment the fights prolongs way to much and or nightmare turns into annoyance for Dante.

Dante here also had alot of years to get stronger compared to is PoC self, DMC1 Dante that is holding back could be very well stronger or equal to PoC Dante.
 
It's quite obvious Nightmare is cut above the rest. You don't find other demons going low2C to 2C/Immeasurable over course of 2 fights, neither do their hax improve at such an alarming rate.
Is already covered on the Demon Physiology page, on the ''all previous abilities greatly improved''. Nightmare was already 2-C in their figth unless we can prove that he got THAT stronger, DMC feats are not near that busted to make then jump tiers with transformations and AD and RE boosts.
This how he blitz'd 1 , 2. Where do you see movement? It's clearly combat speed.
Fair, but when he remove his armor, he got faster and was capable to keep with Nero at least, so at least when he is without his armor, he should get the full speed rating. However, he was capable to chase Dante two times in the game, so would that means he need his travel to macth his combat speed?
Obviously he evolved, but he still started out at his default. And again we have seen many opponents give Dante trouble when he is holding back. I am pretty sure we can find similar statements for Griffon and Phantom.... what do we do then?? Upgrade them to 2C too??
None of them have statements like Nelo and Nightmare of getting stronger on each of their fights, so Griffon and Phantom don't have reasons to scale to 2-C too
I am talking about hax and resistances. Its weaker than Malphas.
Meanwhile Mundus's version of Nightmare even affected Dante near God lvls of Physiology in later fights through evolution. Meanwhile Malphas can't even hax Nero.
Yeah, you are forgetting that since they are losing DE, they resistances also get weakened in the process, Mundus in DMC3 can be killed by a DMC3 Vergil while DMC1 Mundus casually flex on DMC1 Dante post alot of RE feats, do you think that both Mundus have the same level of resistances here? Nero have God Tier Physiology, so it is not really fair to compara others to Nero, not to mention that he is stated to have more potencial then DMC4 Dante himself. and V stated that he maybe have a chance against Urizen with DSS, so he maybe is that weaker then we think here.
Since hax/resistances evolve parallely to AP/speed we can see V's Nightmare lag behind Mundus's Nightmare after evolution.
We don't know how strong Nighmare is before figthing Dante, we can't assume crazy jump whiteout proof, however, you are right on the hax/resistances evolve parallely to AP/speed tho
 
Yeah... no, Nightmare isn't comparable to Dante in any way, shape or form.

"Surviving" against DMC1 Dante isn't a great feat, this isn't DMC2 and you can even see Dante trying to spare the life of Griffon and Phantom in the game. "Surviving" against this Dante means absolutely nothing.

I don't see any scan saying that it was a tough fight for Dante and the scan linked only says that nightmare was getting stronger, not that it was a match for Dante.

Moreover the scan about Nelo angelo debunks this easily:

"In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."
 
Yeah... no, Nightmare isn't comparable to Dante in any way, shape or form.

"Surviving" against DMC1 Dante isn't a great feat, this isn't DMC2 and you can even see Dante trying to spare the life of Griffon and Phantom in the game. "Surviving" against this Dante means absolutely nothing.
What does Griffon and Phantom have do with this? Not of then was even remotely stated to be on Dante level or to be a hard fight for him, only Nightmare and Nelo have statements to be comparable to Dante, so don't use bosses in the game where the context is completely different here.
I don't see any scan saying that it was a tough fight for Dante and the scan linked only says that nightmare was getting stronger, not that it was a match for Dante.
They mention that Nightmare was a hard fight for him while Nightmare was also getting stronger in the process, not just getting stronger in the process, and there is another statement from another DMC1 jap Guidebook that said that Nightmare was not a easy victory for Dante, the same one that also says that he is capable to destroy the Demon World.
Moreover the scan about Nelo angelo debunks this easily:

"In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."
Nelo Angelo was not comparable to Dante, he was his equal foe, that's why they state that Tony, he was the only one capable to kill Dante at this point then Mundus, and he macthed his skills.

Nightmare was comparable to Dante, but not his equal foe, that's is what is stated in the guidebooks, however, he was still powerfull enougth to keep up with Dante and survive his attacks.
 
Yeah... no, Nightmare isn't comparable to Dante in any way, shape or form.

"Surviving" against DMC1 Dante isn't a great feat, this isn't DMC2 and you can even see Dante trying to spare the life of Griffon and Phantom in the game. "Surviving" against this Dante means absolutely nothing.

I don't see any scan saying that it was a tough fight for Dante and the scan linked only says that nightmare was getting stronger, not that it was a match for Dante.

Moreover the scan about Nelo angelo debunks this easily:

"In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."
Get ratio'ed keep coping tony
No, Nightmare is said to: annoy dante multiple times, fight gainst nightmare gets tougher.

In fact i can just argue dante's ability to get stronger faster makes him > Nelo and Dante who fought eachother where the fight was blood tussle.
Nightmare by all means scales to him.

both griffon and phantom are irrelevant, first that they are 4 tiers below nightmare and doesns't have statements of annoying dante and being tougher fight as the fight goes and nightmare's fight is literally after Dante and Nelo fight.
Nightmare 100% scales to dante.

If Dante is completely superior to nightmare, why he didn't finish nightmare on the second encounter if he's annoying dante?
Because Nightmare can keep up with dante.
 
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There is also another thing to mention is that Nightmare's armor was created to restrain his movements as explained by Dante in one of the guidebooks, so when they mention that he was going to destroy the Demon World, they are talking about Nightmare beign faster enougth to destroy it in a very short frame, not because of him charging a blast to destroy the realm. This along with Dante being annoyed by his presence, just support that Nightmare without his armor is faster enough to keep up with Dante, while with his armor he still is faster then Griffon and Shadow as show by Gilver some comments above me,
 
What does Griffon and Phantom have do with this?
You mentioned Nightmare surviving against Dante as if it was relevant, that's why I brought up Griffon and Phantom.

Not of then was even remotely stated to be on Dante level or to be a hard fight for him, only Nightmare and Nelo have statements to be comparable to Dante, so don't use bosses in the game where the context is completely different here.

Neither was Nightmare. Only Nero, literally only Nelo has statements for that.
They mention that Nightmare was a hard fight for him while Nightmare was also getting stronger in the process, not just getting stronger in the process, and there is another statement from another DMC1 jap Guidebook that said that Nightmare was not a easy victory for Dante, the same one that also says that he is capable to destroy the Demon World.
That's not what the scan says. It only says that Nightmare is "tougher than before".

Bring that scan then, otherwise this won't go anywere, moreover with the Nelo scan you posted previously I really, really doubt you have any standing ground here.
Nelo Angelo was not comparable to Dante, he was his equal foe, that's why they state that Tony, he was the only one capable to kill Dante at this point then Mundus, and he macthed his skills.

Nightmare was comparable to Dante, but not his equal foe, that's is what is stated in the guidebooks, however, he was still powerfull enougth to keep up with Dante and survive his attacks.
The scan literally says "In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."

If Nightmare was comparable as you say then he would have been a worthy opponent too but alas that's not the case. This is supported by the fact that Vol 2 mentions Nelo being the only one giving him trouble.

Again, surviving his attacks is not enough. If this was DMC2 Dante then you'll have a point there but it isn't also there is no statement that he was keeping up with Dante in any way.
Get ratio'ed keep coping tony
No, Nightmare is said to: annoy dante multiple times, fight gainst nightmare gets tougher.

In fact i can just argue dante's ability to get stronger faster makes him > Nelo and Dante who fought eachother where the fight was blood tussle.
Nightmare by all means scales to him.

both griffon and phantom are irrelevant, first that they are 4 tiers below nightmare and doesns't have statements of annoying dante and being tougher fight as the fight goes and nightmare's fight is literally after Dante and Nelo fight.
Nightmare 100% scales to dante.

If Dante is completely superior to nightmare, why he didn't finish nightmare on the second encounter if he's annoying dante?
Because Nightmare can keep up with dante.
An ant can annoy me, that doesn't mean I can stomp it easily, same thing here. Hell Dante was being more annoyed by Phantom going after him several times and yet he still was chill with him and was going to let Griffon live if he surrendered. "Tougher than before" is far from enough proof for this shit.

I'm not going to bother with that logic, Nightmare doesn't scale to Nelo or Dante, that's the end of it.

They aren't irrelevant, explained above. LOL NO, nightmare doesn't scale.

Same argument can be used for the other 2 generals. Your logic doesn't work at all.
There is also another thing to mention is that Nightmare's armor was created to restrain his movements as explained by Dante in one of the guidebooks, so when they mention that he was going to destroy the Demon World, they are talking about Nightmare beign faster enougth to destroy it in a very short frame, not because of him charging a blast to destroy the realm. This along with Dante being annoyed by his presence, just support that Nightmare without his armor is faster enough to keep up with Dante, while with his armor he still is faster then Griffon and Shadow as show by Gilver some comments above me,

That's irrelevant, Dante in the game isn't blitzing everyone and everything to hell and back, he is clearly playing and having fun not taking them seriously except with Nelo and of course Mundus.

Being able to blitz the other generals or shadow isn't proof that he scales to Dante, at all.
 
You mentioned Nightmare surviving against Dante as if it was relevant, that's why I brought up Griffon and Phantom.
Considering that no Griffon and Phantom have statements of their fights being more hard for Dante along with getting more stronger eacth round, like Nightmare and Nelo does, i would have to say you are wrong on that.
Neither was Nightmare. Only Nero, literally only Nelo has statements for that.
Yeah, he does, in Sacred Tears as mentioning earlier and also this one when Dante mention that beating Nightmare was not a easy victory
That's not what the scan says. It only says that Nightmare is "tougher than before".
If a fight is tougher than before the previus one and they mention it means that Nightmare got stronger enougth to keep up with Dante even after he fougth and surpassed his limits many times to finally kill Nelo once and for all. And like i'm mentioned and linked the scan above, Dante even mentions that defeating Nightmare was not a easy victory for him, which just makes Sacred Tears statements even more legit.
Bring that scan then, otherwise this won't go anywere, moreover with the Nelo scan you posted previously I really, really doubt you have any standing ground here.
I literally did and gonna do again just in case, Nelo was the only one to rival him in his skill and power departement as his equal opponents and be capable to kill him as mentioned in their fith fight along with Dante mentioning that Nelo is stronger then him in their fight in another jap guidebook. Mind you that Nightmare statement of being a "tougher than before" comes after he kill Nelo for good, which is after he say Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.". so i won't use that do try to debunk my argument, since it comes before Dante fougth Nightmare for the second and third time.
The scan literally says "In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."
I explained this above, it happens after he kill Nelo Angelo once and for all, so that statement don't means much in the end, since even Mundus gived alot of trouble for him and almost killed him as stated in Sacred Tears.
If Nightmare was comparable as you say then he would have been a worthy opponent too but alas that's not the case. This is supported by the fact that Vol 2 mentions Nelo being the only one giving him trouble.
Dante only mention that when he is comparing his skills to Nelo, since both they have the same skills in both ocasion, that's all, if we take Vol 2 literally as only Nelo being Dante only worth opponent, then that means Mundus was a ''easy job'' for him, which we know is that case, so don't take Vol2 at face value because they don't have all the details from DMC1, and like i'm said, Dante talks about both having the same skills in both ocasion in the novel.
Again, surviving his attacks is not enough. If this was DMC2 Dante then you'll have a point there but it isn't also there is no statement that he was keeping up with Dante in any way.
Adressed this above, Sacred Teras and the other jap guidebook that i'm forgot the name also say that Nightamere was not a easy victory for Dante, so yeah, Nightamere was legit keeping up with Dante in DMC1 in every departement.
That's irrelevant, Dante in the game isn't blitzing everyone and everything to hell and back, he is clearly playing and having fun not taking them seriously except with Nelo and of course Mundus.

Being able to blitz the other generals or shadow isn't proof that he scales to Dante, at all.
Well, true on some points, buuuuuut, since the same guidebook mentions that Dante victory over Nightmare was not a easy one in the same guidebook that he mention that Nightmare's armor was restraining his movements, sooo my point still stands here, since a have proof that Nightmare is comparared to Dante when he mentions that.

Can we at least agree to change Nightmare feat to speed instead of range since the guidebook literally confirms that his armor is not nerfing his powers, only his speed?
 
DMC1 English guide: Nelo angelo is perfect match for dante
DMC1 Japonese guide: Nelo is perfect match for dante
Novel vol 2: Perfect match + their last fight ended on bloodly fight for both nelo and dante
DMC1 Japonese guide: Nightmare is said to have annoyed dante two times + statement of the fights getting harder for Dante
and the scan related to nightmare brought by mister

Mother of circular arguments

An ant can annoy me, that doesn't mean I can stomp it easily, same thing here
False Equivalence, you absolute CAN'T compare that to a fight where its said MULTIPLE times to be hard one for Dante

Hell Dante was being more annoyed by Phantom going after him several times and yet he still was chill with him and was going to let Griffon live if he surrendered.
They aren't irrelevant, explained above. LOL NO, nightmare doesn't scale.

Same argument can be used for the other 2 generals. Your logic doesn't work at all.

Different contexts, stop creating a narrative to benefit you, you didn't even adress what i argued




"Tougher than before" is far from enough proof for this shit.
Strawman, my argument is more than that.

That's irrelevant, Dante in the game isn't blitzing everyone and everything to hell and back, he is clearly playing and having fun not taking them seriously except with Nelo and of course Mundus.

Being able to blitz the other generals or shadow isn't proof that he scales to Dante, at all.
If Dante is completely superior to nightmare, why he didn't finish nightmare on the second encounter if he's annoying and getting tougher?
Because Nightmare can keep up with dante.
Circular argument
 
So the current proposal is something completely unrelated to the OP ? What are you guys doing ?

I'll call staff to look into what is on the OP and comments related to that, you guys should talk about Nightmare's scaling in its own CRT
 
Considering that no Griffon and Phantom have statements of their fights being more hard for Dante along with getting more stronger eacth round, like Nightmare and Nelo does, i would have to say you are wrong on that.
Neither does Nightmare, only Nelo.

Yeah, he does, in Sacred Tears as mentioning earlier and also this one when Dante mention that beating Nightmare was not a easy victory
Funny how it also mentions why: "its gel-like body does not accept any attacks. In addition, it creates a different world inside it which can be called a subspace, exerting a truly nightmare ability to cast the "shadow" of the demon that was created from the memory of the opponent who was pulled in it"

I don't see it scaling to him when his main concern is his hard to hit body and his mind **** ability.
If a fight is tougher than before the previus one and they mention it means that Nightmare got stronger enougth to keep up with Dante even after he fougth and surpassed his limits many times to finally kill Nelo once and for all. And like i'm mentioned and linked the scan above, Dante even mentions that defeating Nightmare was not a easy victory for him, which just makes Sacred Tears statements even more legit.
Except that isn't what the scans say nor does it ever mention that Nightmare is keeping up with Dante. Nightmare being tougher than before doesn't change things overall, he might be more durable but that's all.

Already went over the scan above, nothing about raw power but his hard to hit body and his mind hax.
I literally did and gonna do again just in case, Nelo was the only one to rival him in his skill and power departement as his equal opponents and be capable to kill him as mentioned in their fith fight along with Dante mentioning that Nelo is stronger then him in their fight in another jap guidebook. Mind you that Nightmare statement of being a "tougher than before" comes after he kill Nelo for good, which is after he say Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.". so i won't use that do try to debunk my argument, since it comes before Dante fougth Nightmare for the second and third time.
Same thing again.

The "tougher than before" is from the second fight, not the third fight, at least going from the pictures used in the guide so no, it doens't come after he kills Nelo.

Also, the other scans talk about Nightmare "tormenting Dante" which, you know, its his main ******* ability. So it isn't even about power but the mind **** Dante went through with Nightmare.

And again, the same guide says only Nelo was a worthy opponent.
I explained this above, it happens after he kill Nelo Angelo once and for all, so that statement don't means much in the end, since even Mundus gived alot of trouble for him and almost killed him as stated in Sacred Tears.
same thing as above

Dante only mention that when he is comparing his skills to Nelo, since both they have the same skills in both ocasion, that's all, if we take Vol 2 literally as only Nelo being Dante only worth opponent, then that means Mundus was a ''easy job'' for him, which we know is that case, so don't take Vol2 at face value because they don't have all the details from DMC1, and like i'm said, Dante talks about both having the same skills in both ocasion in the novel.
The scans are pretty obvious its about power, then Vol2 adds the skill part,

Now that's some bad logic there, when he says "a worthy opponent" he is talking about everything Mundus sent after him, not talking about Mundus himself.

Adressed this above, Sacred Teras and the other jap guidebook that i'm forgot the name also say that Nightamere was not a easy victory for Dante, so yeah, Nightamere was legit keeping up with Dante in DMC1 in every departement.
Oh yeah, the guides also states that it is because of his mind hax and his gel like body so it isn't legit.

Well, true on some points, buuuuuut, since the same guidebook mentions that Dante victory over Nightmare was not a easy one in the same guidebook that he mention that Nightmare's armor was restraining his movements, sooo my point still stands here, since a have proof that Nightmare is comparared to Dante when he mentions that.
Check above.
Can we at least agree to change Nightmare feat to speed instead of range since the guidebook literally confirms that his armor is not nerfing his powers, only his speed?
Change his speed to what? Just because he is being restricted doesn't mean he scales to Dante, being faster than the other generals doesn't make him scale to Dante either.
 
Can we drop this
and let this thread be concluded? We can solve this on another thread
Nightmare can be its own thing on the future but for now, Nelo scales to dante and done
 
Tony legit read the scan wrong smth

Can we drop this
and let this thread be concluded? We can solve this on another thread
Nightmare can be its own thing on the future but for now, Nelo scales to dante and done
Fair, let's just add Dante and Nelo Angelo stuff for now

I added then to the OP with the scans, so just check then and i'm call Glass to evaluate the thread.
 
Question, is there any reason to assume Bolverk is remotely on par with Dante in DMC 2 beyond just running away from the first fight and dying in the second? Because keeping up with a casual dante doesn't give much for scaling since he's casual against anyone that doesn't push him to the limits, which no one in DMC 2 has remotely done.
 
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