Dante's Immeasurable justifications

[Random-Helper323]

If the fury thing is actually speed and not teleportation what speed rating would he be

Infinite. Immeasurable refers to a speed that transcends the core concepts of speed itself.

Infinite means infinite miles per hour, while immeasurable transcends the entire concept of miles per hour.

 

[SeijiSetto]

the fact that it isn't always moving that fast and demonstrably has to activate a special ability to do so would imply more teleportation to me tbh but i don't really care
there seems to be conflicting opinions on whether the cutscene should be disregarded and it should be treated as teleportation OR it should be assumed to be a temporary infinite speed amp, hence allowing for instant warping while still being physical movement
there's also what agnaa brought up:

[...] I don't think this makes sense if they're meant to always be Immeasurable (however it's being argued for Infinite now), or if they're meant to occasionally be *Infinite when moving around like that, especially if you're arguing that Dante reacts to those *Infinite parts (since that brings up the question of why Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them while they're not using it).

either he scales to their inf speed amp and so would completely destroy them when they aren't using it, or he doesn't and so it doesn't matter to begin with, i think?

 

[Vietthai96]

Tbf, it isn't matter, since even if Agrosax is just teleporting around, if Dante can react to that teleport, he still have infinite speed

 

[Agnaa]

Tbf, it isn't matter, since even if Agrosax is just teleporting around, if Dante can react to that teleport, he still have infinite speed

I don't find ignoring the issue to be satisfactory.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't find ignoring the issue to be satisfactory.

I mean, if

but, what is the issue again??, damn, my memories getting shittier

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, if

but, what is the issue again??, damn, my memories getting shittier

The ability isn't being used by the character all the time, as is seen in gameplay and cutscenes, and those gameplay visuals are backed up by the explanatory text.

So if it is infinitely faster, the only way that can't be contradicted is if Dante doesn't scale. This can be seen if we replace "infinitely faster" with "infinitely stronger", a character facing such an amp has to either stomp the original form, get stomped afterwards (and thus not scale), or has to have an ability which lets them match that amp.

Since Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them when they're not dashing, and seems to not have an ability which makes him infinitely faster and is only used at the same time as theirs, he can't scale without contradiction.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The ability isn't being used by the character all the time, as is seen in gameplay and cutscenes, and those gameplay visuals are backed up by the explanatory text.

So if it is infinitely faster, the only way that can't be contradicted is if Dante doesn't scale. This can be seen if we replace "infinitely faster" with "infinitely stronger", a character facing such an amp has to either stomp the original form, get stomped afterwards (and thus not scale), or has to have an ability which lets them match that amp.

Since Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them when they're not teleporting, and seems to not have an ability which makes him infinitely faster and is only used at the same time as theirs, he can't scale without contradiction.

There is also the issue if the ability even counts as a infinite speed feat as well when it comes to been some finite speed feat which disqualify this completely

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I'm just testing out some different approaches here. That isn't my final bulwark against this revision or anything.

 

[Ningenron]

Teleportation speed scaling in the big ‘24

 

[Vietthai96]

The ability isn't being used by the character all the time, as is seen in gameplay and cutscenes, and those gameplay visuals are backed up by the explanatory text.

So if it is infinitely faster, the only way that can't be contradicted is if Dante doesn't scale. This can be seen if we replace "infinitely faster" with "infinitely stronger", a character facing such an amp has to either stomp the original form, get stomped afterwards (and thus not scale), or has to have an ability which lets them match that amp.

Since Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them when they're not dashing, and seems to not have an ability which makes him infinitely faster and is only used at the same time as theirs, he can't scale without contradiction.

Hmm, i didn't play DMC2 cause.....eh...reason, but iirc there are actually no cutscene of Dante fightinf Agrosax, he went to hell, saw Agrosax, the boss awaken, throw some fire spears, Dante dodged, made some trolling statements then the game jump into boss battle which is entirely game mechanic, these is no major cutscene later aside from Agrsax changing his form and Dante win, shot Agrosax in the head, then ride on a bike escaping from the Demon Realm while laughing. So it is ambiguous and up in the air, it could be that Agrosax using teleport in battle and Dante reacted to him or Agrosax didn't even use the ability at all, so........

And before you jump on me bruhh, i said if because there could be information in guidebook, magazine somewhere for this fight which i'm not aware of and could potentially help supporting the speed argument

 

[Palito266]

Since Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them when they're not dashing, and seems to not have an ability which makes him infinitely faster and is only used at the same time as theirs, he can't scale without contradiction.

Can you send me a cutscene where this has happened?

 

[Agnaa]

Oh nvm I'm dumb, I was thinking about the other teleporty guy that was brought up, idk what the case with Argosax is like.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh nvm I'm dumb, I was thinking about the other teleporty guy that was brought up, idk what the case with Argosax is like.

It was a translation issue. The current immeasurable justification is based on Argosax having "instantaneous movement" but it's literally just teleportation.

 

[Agnaa]

It was a translation issue. The current immeasurable justification is based on Argosax having "instantaneous movement" but it's literally just teleportation.

I mean in terms of how the teleportation is presented in gameplay/cutscenes, and how Dante reacts to it.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean in terms of how the teleportation is presented in gameplay/cutscenes, and how Dante reacts to it.

No idea.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Oh nvm I'm dumb, I was thinking about the other teleporty guy that was brought up, idk what the case with Argosax is like.

I mean in terms of how the teleportation is presented in gameplay/cutscenes, and how Dante reacts to it.

Argosax iirc in gameplay is disappearing and reappearing close by, usually above. I don't recall Dante reacting to it in the final boss cutscene cause it doesn't use it to my recollection.

 

[Golden_Void]

Then again, the scan says he isn't even "moving" under his own power (implying he is moving later too), he uses raw demonic energy into his speed to do "space-time jumps" which sounds like teleportation but that's also a synonym for infinite speed too and the description do seems to imply just that.

Given the descriptions of Dante's moves earlier, the most likely interpretation of the statement is that Fury is constantly using demonic power, whereas Dante's use is as needed.

Air hike/sky star uses demonic power to dash and double jump mid-air. Dante can't move like this without using demonic energy above ground in his base form because he can't fly. That is why he can dash multiple times in the air while transformed before the game forces you to use air hike again to stay suspended. And this energy is something demons can use whenever.

It's why Dante can charge Ebony and Ivory with bullets that never seem to need to reload or how his demonic energy can change colors depending on what devil arm he is wielding. However, even a form such as Devil Trigger, which is pure demonic energy, can still further amplify movement using these techniques. That is why air hike is still a usable technique even when transformed.

Fury's statement heavily implies he forwent using his normal abilities and is doing his version of 24/7 air hike spam as combat movement. Obviously, it still has a body that can move normally. How does it make sense that you can speed your way into solely using demonic energy for movement? Idk, and it doesn't matter either.

 

[Ningenron]

I mean in terms of how the teleportation is presented in gameplay/cutscenes, and how Dante reacts to it.

We can’t really tell much 'cuz Argosax’s teleportation was never shown in any cutscenes in the game—only during the boss fight (9:39 and onwards, where he's just teleporting around you in that fight). There's nothing to say or imply Dante reacted to anything like that or smth.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

For the Argosax thing in his battle with Dante here is the battle and the cutscenes which may help?



Since the whole issue relies on the whole Argosax thing of being speed or teleportation. Which has translation issues.

 

[Employe]

Following

 

[DarkslayerV]

There’s a scene of Dante using Majin DT against Argosax in the DMC film DVD book the trinity of fate

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Thought of sharing this

 

[DarkslayerV]

Here's the whole thing how the fight between Argosax and Dante went down at 18.20

 

[Revaret]

Buump

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[SeijiSetto]

what's being waited for
the "instantaneous movement" thing is actually just teleportation and was broken into 2 words because ???
it apparently wasn't even accepted in the first place
why not just change speed to the FTL feat and call it a day
if people want to add back inf or immes they can do it later in a different CRT

 

[Hellformer]

what's being waited for
the "instantaneous movement" thing is actually just teleportation and was broken into 2 words because ???
it apparently wasn't even accepted in the first place
why not just change speed to the FTL feat and call it a day
if people want to add back inf or immes they can do it later in a different CRT

The actual issue is what should be the replacement.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

The actual issue is what should be the replacement.

There is this Mundus feat that is obviously MFTL+ but admittedly it is nonsensically calced atm. I think I'll make a separate calc blog on it again with valid reasonings later on

 

[Hellformer]

There is this Mundus feat that is obviously MFTL+ but admittedly it is nonsensically calced atm.

Agnaa and DMUA had some contentions against it

I think I'll make a separate calc blog on it again with valid reasonings later on

Sure

 

[Golden_Void]

It's true form, embodied by the catalyst of the abomination Argosax the Chaos. It is a hermaphrodite with a perfect body and shining figure. Despite the godlike appearance, destruction, chaos and despair is the desire of the ultimate demon. His ability to dominate the demon world is not for nothing, instantaneous movement that transcends time and distance, he plays with Dante by converging the light that surrounds him.

Also, is he called the ultimate demon because his previous form allegedly has the abilities of all demons, and this is just a buff on top of that? Because I can't see the bold statement above meaning that because he can teleport and use light attacks, those are the reasons he dominates the demon world. Those abilities alone are not impressive, and that being all one sentence makes me believe that's the message they're trying to convey.

what's being waited for
the "instantaneous movement" thing is actually just teleportation and was broken into 2 words because ???
it apparently wasn't even accepted in the first place
why not just change speed to the FTL feat and call it a day
if people want to add back inf or immes they can do it later in a different CRT

Because if Argosax's previous forms had all demon abilities, then he would scale above Fury, which was also a point that was made.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Also, is he called the ultimate demon because his previous form allegedly has the abilities of all demons, and this is just a buff on top of that? Because I can't see the bold statement above meaning that because he can teleport and use light attacks, those are the reasons he dominates the demon world. Those abilities alone are not impressive, and that being all one sentence makes me believe that's the message they're trying to convey.

Because if Argosax's previous forms had all demon abilities, then he would scale above Fury, which was also a point that was made.

the fury thing has seemingly been concluded in that it wouldn't scale to Dante anyway from what i can tell?
agnaa and i mentioned it earlier: either it's an infinite speed amp and dante scales to that (so he should utterly shitblitz furies when they aren't using said amp, which he doesn't seem to) or he doesn't and so from his perspective they're just teleporting.

also argosax possessing the fury's ability would put him in the same situation, being that it would be a speed amp, rather than him just upscaling that speed directly.

 

[Golden_Void]

the fury thing has seemingly been concluded in that it wouldn't scale to Dante anyway from what i can tell?
agnaa and i mentioned it earlier: either it's an infinite speed amp and dante scales to that (so he should utterly shitblitz furies when they aren't using said amp, which he doesn't seem to) or he doesn't and so from his perspective they're just teleporting.

also argosax possessing the fury's ability would put him in the same situation, being that it would be a speed amp, rather than him just upscaling that speed directly.

I addressed the Fury speed thing in response to that, which has seemingly been the last bit of dialogue on the subject.

 

[Agnaa]

I addressed the Fury speed thing in response to that, which has seemingly been the last bit of dialogue on the subject.

Because it doesn't solve the issue.

• "Fury moves fast and Dante scales."
• "Dante scaling would cause contradictions."
• "Fury moves fast, instead of teleporting."

It's not an actual response to that issue.

 

[Golden_Void]

Addressed here.

ig it is a bit weird as far as teleportation goes. They leave mists behind, and there's sometimes a delay between when they disappear/appear, and at other times a faded visual of them remains when they disappear, while they're still reappearing somewhere else. But I still think the greater preponderance of evidence goes against you.

If your teleportation does leave marks like that, it makes sense to repeatedly teleport around someone before actually going in for the attack, since you'd still need to wind up for it after teleporting, you may as well try to fake them out.

And I think more important than them changing stances between dashing and reappearing, is how after these dashes they wind up for attacks, how you can see them recoiling, regaining their senses, and then dashing away. I don't think this makes sense if they're meant to always be Immeasurable, or if they're meant to occasionally be Immeasurable when moving around like that, especially if you're arguing that Dante reacts to those Immeasurable parts (since that brings up the question of why Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them while they're not using it).

No, I do think the evidence provided still makes sense for them briefly seeing the world between dashes, and being able to adjust things based on that.

He doesn't do that as Fury passes by, he does it a bit after. Plus, Fury leaves a trail and makes a noise with that dashing. And, ofc, the final reaction by Dante can be done as Fury stopped dashing and had to perform an attack, as you can tell by the distinctly different visuals and accompanying sound effect.

Is this where you state the contradictions?

 

[Agnaa]

No, I did so here.

So if it is infinitely faster, the only way that can't be contradicted is if Dante doesn't scale. This can be seen if we replace "infinitely faster" with "infinitely stronger", a character facing such an amp has to either stomp the original form, get stomped afterwards (and thus not scale), or has to have an ability which lets them match that amp.

Since Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them when they're not dashing, and seems to not have an ability which makes him infinitely faster and is only used at the same time as theirs, he can't scale without contradiction.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Could the dashing be a representation of their actual speed while they only appear slower otherwise? That sort of weird cinematic timing abuse gets done a lot.

 

[Golden_Void]

No, I did so here.

It seems to stem from that comment though.

ig it is a bit weird as far as teleportation goes. They leave mists behind, and there's sometimes a delay between when they disappear/appear, and at other times a faded visual of them remains when they disappear, while they're still reappearing somewhere else. But I still think the greater preponderance of evidence goes against you.

If your teleportation does leave marks like that, it makes sense to repeatedly teleport around someone before actually going in for the attack, since you'd still need to wind up for it after teleporting, you may as well try to fake them out.

Going back to the character file, if we hold what Nico says to be the absolute truth, then Fury isn't running up to a speed level in which it can teleport. The file states this is a generational evolution ability, which means this ability is their baseline. I feel like with the amount of enemies that straight-up teleport and have that terminology specifically in their character file, teleportation would've been used directly if that is what they meant. Here's the Japanese scan for anyone who can translate it, which will hopefully settle the matter.

Text ripped:
狩りをする生物にとって、何よりも重要なのは速度だろう。

逃げる獲物を追う物理的な速度。

そして一瞬で獲物を仕留める速度。

そういう意味では、この個体こそが狩りをする生物の究極形と言える。

視認も困難な速度は、どうやら筋力だけでなく魔力的な空間干渉の結果でもあるらしい。

同時に、この個体には一瞬で相手を仕留めるだけの力もある。

狩られる立場になりたくなければ、一瞬たりとも気を抜かない事だ。

Based on ctrl+F plus the terms listed in the OP, I found no matches.

Plus as I mentioned earlier, Dante has several moves that utilize demonic power. Even if you say Fury only moves that fast when using said power, it still lost to Dante while being capable of operating at those speeds. Plus Dante has his own movements that look like teleportation even though they're strictly framed as movement abilities. If you say it's teleportation, Dante has been killing teleporting demons since his debut in DMC3 so Fury would be nothing special in that case.

I'm also going to assume you don't consider the dashing streaks teleportation, only when they disappear. If they're strictly teleporting, how is it that there's multiple frames where they're in a completely different stance after warping? If they're not crossing any distance, the frames directly before and after teleportation should be exactly the same.

Winding up is a property of momentum, which is a property of movement. Fury teleporting several times while dashing and winding up seems like an incredibly inefficient strategy for a hunter with a lineage obsessed with improvement.

And I think more important than them changing stances between dashing and reappearing, is how after these dashes they wind up for attacks, how you can see them recoiling, regaining their senses, and then dashing away.

They have different animation sequences. There's a few where they enter a charging stance and then start throwing fake dashes at Dante. The other moments are when it's preparing its blade before it strikes (which makes sense if it can't move during instant teleportation.) Even if it was strictly a combat-only ability, would it not also have the reflexes/perception to match?

I don't think this makes sense if they're meant to always be Immeasurable, or if they're meant to occasionally be Immeasurable when moving around like that, especially if you're arguing that Dante reacts to those Immeasurable parts (since that brings up the question of why Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them while they're not using it).

Because at the end of the day, Fury is still a lesser demon, and Dante trolls everybody, including actual bosses. This is like asking why he doesn't immediately activate Devil Trigger to gain speed beyond anything he can use in his base form. I don't think this type of question should be considered evidence against a point. I could ask why base Dante ran after Urizen when he was about to bite the Qlipoth fruit when he could have instantly transformed into Sin Devil Trigger and ninja'd him, especially when you considered he neg-diffed Qlipoth Urizen in base.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That sort of weird cinematic timing abuse gets done a lot.

Yes, and happens most of the time in fiction. Characters may fight at Relativistic speeds, so the author needs to portray the characters fighting at human speeds so we can see them. If we applied logic then we wouldn't even see them in the battlefield

 

[Agnaa]

Could the dashing be a representation of their actual speed while they only appear slower otherwise? That sort of weird cinematic timing abuse gets done a lot.

Yes, and happens most of the time in fiction. Characters may fight at Relativistic speeds, so the author needs to portray the characters fighting at human speeds so we can see them. If we applied logic then we wouldn't even see them in the battlefield

No, this is completely different from those cases. This is a character using a supposedly infinite speed amp, yet not getting blitzed without it.

Your points would be valid if this was a case where they were argued to be moving at infinite speed all the time, with no amps involved, but that's not what's happening here.

Because at the end of the day, Fury is still a lesser demon, and Dante trolls everybody, including actual bosses. This is like asking why he doesn't immediately activate Devil Trigger to gain speed beyond anything he can use in his base form. I don't think this type of question should be considered evidence against a point. I could ask why base Dante ran after Urizen when he was about to bite the Qlipoth fruit when he could have instantly transformed into Sin Devil Trigger and ninja'd him, especially when you considered he neg-diffed Qlipoth Urizen in base.

I don't think an instance of a character being dumb and letting an opponent power up means that we should dismiss all antifeats as them "trolling".

But hey, I don't think I'm gonna convince you on that, so I'll go back to a harder reason for them not scaling; that it's a movement ability Dante doesn't scale to rather than their ordinary state.

Going back to the character file, if we hold what Nico says to be the absolute truth, then Fury isn't running up to a speed level in which it can teleport. The file states this is a generational evolution ability, which means this ability is their baseline.

No, that's not what that means.

I feel like with the amount of enemies that straight-up teleport and have that terminology specifically in their character file, teleportation would've been used directly if that is what they meant. Here's the Japanese scan for anyone who can translate it, which will hopefully settle the matter.

Based on ctrl+F plus the terms listed in the OP, I found no matches.

What needs to be settled from that? Is there a particular part of the official translation you're suspicious of?

Plus as I mentioned earlier, Dante has several moves that utilize demonic power. Even if you say Fury only moves that fast when using said power, it still lost to Dante while being capable of operating at those speeds. Plus Dante has his own movements that look like teleportation even though they're strictly framed as movement abilities. If you say it's teleportation, Dante has been killing teleporting demons since his debut in DMC3 so Fury would be nothing special in that case.

Killing someone who can temporarily move at very high speeds doesn't mean that you scale to those very high speeds. Especially if those movement abilities have drawbacks (not letting them maneuver arbitrarily, having a windup, having an indicator of where they'll appear).

I'm also going to assume you don't consider the dashing streaks teleportation, only when they disappear. If they're strictly teleporting, how is it that there's multiple frames where they're in a completely different stance after warping? If they're not crossing any distance, the frames directly before and after teleportation should be exactly the same.

Winding up is a property of momentum, which is a property of movement. Fury teleporting several times while dashing and winding up seems like an incredibly inefficient strategy for a hunter with a lineage obsessed with improvement.

I admittedly got a bit confused earlier, mixing up the Argosax case with the Fury case. The Fury one has less support for it being teleportation, so I'm happy to take it as just a movement ability.

They have different animation sequences. There's a few where they enter a charging stance and then start throwing fake dashes at Dante. The other moments are when it's preparing its blade before it strikes (which makes sense if it can't move during instant teleportation.) Even if it was strictly a combat-only ability, would it not also have the reflexes/perception to match?

No.

 

[DMUA]

Here's the Japanese scan for anyone who can translate it, which will hopefully settle the matter.

Seems the embed broke but this was noted earlier

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

No, this is completely different from those cases. This is a character using a supposedly infinite speed amp, yet not getting blitzed without it.

Your points would be valid if this was a case where they were argued to be moving at infinite speed all the time, with no amps involved, but that's not what's happening here.

Then we simply can just create him a new key for this amp