Ye
Replace this with "sealed various demon lords" since Sealed all Demon Kings is absurd claim.
It should be all Demon Kings considering that Mundus was ruling the DW from the moment he broke thought the seal up to DMC3 whitheout any problems, if was more Demon Kings in that point in timeline not sealed, Mundus would not be able to commander the DW so easely, ordering every demon to try to hunt and kill Tony and Vergil, ordering Machiavelli to create the Black Knights, etc...
Well, fair enougth.
That's not how it works, Arius had the plot armor because he is the one pushing the story forward, kill him and the game ends there. Bolverk had none of that, he didn't even had plot, he just showed up and fought Dante.
I already explained that. BtN confirms literally nothing except that it was an easy job for Dante.
That's the problem, we are assuming that sparda had to fight and gain time or some other thing like that. We have no proof, we have no information about it. What if all the clan was the one gaining time while Sparda did the seal? What if Sparda only got there and sealed him immediately? What if the whole clan fought alongside him while only 1 person did the seal? what if the clan had warriors capable of holding down argosax? What if Sparda almost died in the battle? "What if this? or what if that?"
Same thing as above, its all full of "what ifs". She needing to recover her powers isn't proof or anything. Hell in game there are crystals that Dante has to destroy to keep her from getting her powers back, what if her powers were separated by the family or the seal just drained her or something else?
Again, we don't know how the whole ordeal went down. For all we know Sparda could have just showed up and sealed her ass without any trouble.
What statement?
That doesn't change the simple fact that said "ant" survived what the others couldn't. It doesn't break the scaling at all either, Bolverk is his own separated thing in DMC2, he doesn't scale to anyone nor anyone scales to him.
Already debunked that. That line is all the proof you have for her scaling to the other demon kings? That means absolutely nothing.
He treated her with respect which coming from Pluto isn't a great deal. If Mundus did it then you would have a point but from Pluto it is useless and doesn't work at all.
You know that "can't kill" is not enough to scale her. What if she just has some uber immortality or regen or some other bs like that? Mundus case is obvious, argosax is definetively stronger than sealed sparda but medea has nothing, not even the little background we have behind her sealing is enought to make her scale or hint us about it.
He was the guardian of Argosax's temple is stated in the DMC2 guidebook, Bolverk actually have some plot point in the game actually.
Well, if we go your route we need to say that Bolverk have a very busted RE that alows him to macth more and less Dante's powers, dunno if people here is gonna accept that tho.
What i said above, depends if people accept Bolverk having a insanely busted RE, considering that pluto and Vergil were in a same simular situation as Bolverk and did not got a insanely boost in power, i'm dunno if that is gonna fly imo
Is because of everytime they talk about the wars that happened in the past, either being Mundus and his army vs Pluto and his army or Mundus and his army vs Argosax and his army they still they always give emphasis of how Sparda was important on their defeats lore wise, even Pluto mentions that in PoC, which shows that Sparda is something else, he always portrayed as someone important in the series that why he scale to the Demon Kings at that time, even if we lack all details of their defeats.
Well, fair on the seals since Gallens mentioned that some time ago, but i'm forgot this detail, however, that still go back to what i'm said above of how they aways portrain Sparda as being someone very important on their defeats.
Fair on Pluto being a nice guy when it comes to others, can't go against this.
The one of ''their era was begun''
Well, this goes to what i'm said above if people accept Bolverk having a insaley RE that surpass everyone in the series including Vergil and Pluto, which we have to ask others opinions on this.
Pluto still says that their era was begging my boy, which is a direct reference to their status of strongest beings in DMC universe.
That require wayyy too much assumptions to say that she have something so special instead of going with the most obvious one that she is a Demon Queen, was sealed by Sparda with the help of someone else, she being lower then Nighmare is laughable when the ttle for ''Demon Kings'' is not something that will give for a bunch of demons that are Mundus's generals level.
That's like how the siamese are stated to protect the clock tower, literally zero plot beyond a quick description.
Why? He didn't match Dante at all.
Same as above. What do you mean about Pluto? He never got boosted or anything like that. Vergil case is obvious as ****, he ate a fruit, got 1 month pumped by blood and then got his whole self back.
Here is the thing, most of the time Sparda is only called his general, his strongest demon or some other thing like that. Yeah, he could be stronger than 99% of the demons while the other 1% are gods compared to him. The problem with pluto is that Mundus is specifically stated to create an army to fight him and that Sparda is stated to be "one of the reasons why he got the throne".
I mean, yeah, he is the one that makes the seals, of course he is important.
No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left (except for Dante but they are understimating him and with good reason since he and Pluto are perfectly equal, one more demon and dante dies)
I said this above, but Bolverk doesn't get any RE or some power boost in DMC2. We know he has been alive and well since Argosax took control of the demon world and when he was sealed by the clan and Sparda. He, like any other demon, could have been getting stronger in those 2 thousand years and surviving a stomp is the fruit of that.
"No demon to oppose them, Mundus is sealed, Argosax is sealed, Abigail is sealed, Sparda is dead. Their era is coming because there is no one left"
It's better than to assume she is equal to demon kings just because she has the tittle of "Queen". This whole argument only exist because she has the tittle and nothing else. She was sealed by Sparda without any trouble and the guardian family are there to keep watch and nothing else, no statement of her wiping out an army while Sparda was helping, no scaling to any other demons, no feats of her own, nothing.
It represent the peak of power for demons but what demons? Wiki talking most of them are between tier 7 to tier 4, bring someone who can fart a galaxy into existence and no other demon around can do a shit if they declare themselves as King or Queen.
Is stated to protect the Argosax's temple, is stated to be a rival to Sparda and to be the most skilled warrior on Argosax's command all this by lore of the game, kinda point that he does have some reason to survive at least one fight against Dante, since he is supose to be the strongest demon on Argosax's command and also to have rivalized Sparda in the past, not just a randon demon that have the bad luck to cross path with Dante.
When i'm said ''more and less on Dante's level'' i'm was refering that if Bolverk became stronger then Argosax hinself in DMC2, he will be closer to Dante in the God Tier scaling, since Argosax TDE=Mundus<Alt Mundus=<DMC2 Bolverk<<Vol 2 Dante=<Chen with BH<<<<Chen's RE one second after the fight start=Vol 2 Dante's RE<<<<Chen growing stronger in the fight>Dante keeping up Chen<<<<Dante's Post another RE boost<DMC2 Dante
Demons get more demonic power whatever their hits their opponents or got hit, which is a ability that every demons and their mommy have.
Well, fair points there Tony, can't say that you don't have good reasonings there, so maybe just leaving Sparda with two keys for now is good enougth?
Mundus is not sealed he was already broke thought the seal by the time of BtN events, unless you are talking about the seal between the HW and DW, then yeah, you are right on that.
Bolverk was sealed like all the others ones, so he training in the timeframe between the time that he was defeated by Sparta and eventually sealed is very unlikely. But anyway, let's leave Bolverk alone for now since no agreement on both parties atm
Commented about this a bit above
There is not a single proof that she was sealed with easy by Sparda, we don't have any proof of that, just becasue of the clan got wiped by Argosax don't means that they are compable in power, so lets not just assume stuff here plz, but anyway fine, we wait for Medea feats before putting her as compared to Pluto.
We are talking about the era where Pluto was the Demon King, so the comparesion is not really the same imo, but like i'm said earlier, lets wait for Medea feats to make everyone happy here.
Well, there is a problem with Abigail too if not every Demon Kings is 2-C Tony, Sid mentions that Abigail can rival ''Demon Kings'', but the problem is, what Demon Kings he is talking about? We have alot of then, and without a direct mention of being either Pluto, Argosax and Mundus, Abigail scaling is not suficient to reacth that level then, a ''likely 2-C'' is the best thing you could put for him because fighting Demon Kings is a vague line by himself if we don't put all of then even above Nightmare.
I'm not reading all that but you told me in discord you agreed to leave Medea as unknown and Bolverk the same, right?
Yeap, lets leave on unknow for now since this is not going nowhere and we have more important CTRs to make like the Alt Mundus thread.
Like i'm said let's leave things for now at it is when it comes to Bolverk and Medea. Just add Sparda, Bolverk, V and PoC Dante scans and bê done It.
Check the OP bro, we are changing some stuff from PoC Dante in case you did forgot.
He is going from being weaker then Pluto to comparable to him in PoC along with the scans. V's is the source of his summons powers, so he have tier 2 with his source, but is not combat applicable anyway.
fine by me, kinda iffy in the V thing
Well, considering they start to get weaker the moment he start dying by losing demonic power, there is some consistency there, that's is the reason that we don't treat Malphas as comparable to Nightmare in the fist place, and V is capable to canalize his magic on his cane to hurt Cavalier Angelo, which uses Trish as his power source, who scale to tier 6, likely 4 here in VS, so he having a 2-C power source is not that hard to imagine, is just his body that is too weak to handle that level of power.
No, if Nightmare can already fight and annoy dante two times prior the third fight, then is first fight scales.
Dante could be holding back... just like he did against Griffon or Phantom.
This is already covered in the Demon Physiology, when they mention that demons get more power if their hit or get hit and also because of DF scan of demons regeneration
Not really, he is fast demon, he casually even blitz Griffon in VOV, dunno where people are using gameplay to say he is slower then the others summons.
As Efi pointed out, Dante mentions that the second battle was hard then the fist one, and they mention later that he tormented Dante two times before the final fight,s o he scale from the fist fight with him.
It's quite obvious Nightmare is cut above the rest. You don't find other demons going low2C to 2C/Immeasurable over course of 2 fights, neither do their hax improve at such an alarming rate.
This how he blitz'd 1 , 2. Where do you see movement? It's clearly combat speed.
Obviously he evolved, but he still started out at his default. And again we have seen many opponents give Dante trouble when he is holding back. I am pretty sure we can find similar statements for Griffon and Phantom.... what do we do then?? Upgrade them to 2C too??
I am talking about hax and resistances. Its weaker than Malphas.
No reason to hold back that much, he knows how destructive nightmare and what it could potentially happen even before fighting
Is already covered on the Demon Physiology page, on the ''all previous abilities greatly improved''. Nightmare was already 2-C in their figth unless we can prove that he got THAT stronger, DMC feats are not near that busted to make then jump tiers with transformations and AD and RE boosts.
Fair, but when he remove his armor, he got faster and was capable to keep with Nero at least, so at least when he is without his armor, he should get the full speed rating. However, he was capable to chase Dante two times in the game, so would that means he need his travel to macth his combat speed?
None of them have statements like Nelo and Nightmare of getting stronger on each of their fights, so Griffon and Phantom don't have reasons to scale to 2-C too
Yeah, you are forgetting that since they are losing DE, they resistances also get weakened in the process, Mundus in DMC3 can be killed by a DMC3 Vergil while DMC1 Mundus casually flex on DMC1 Dante post alot of RE feats, do you think that both Mundus have the same level of resistances here? Nero have God Tier Physiology, so it is not really fair to compara others to Nero, not to mention that he is stated to have more potencial then DMC4 Dante himself. and V stated that he maybe have a chance against Urizen with DSS, so he maybe is that weaker then we think here.
We don't know how strong Nighmare is before figthing Dante, we can't assume crazy jump whiteout proof, however, you are right on the hax/resistances evolve parallely to AP/speed tho
What does Griffon and Phantom have do with this? Not of then was even remotely stated to be on Dante level or to be a hard fight for him, only Nightmare and Nelo have statements to be comparable to Dante, so don't use bosses in the game where the context is completely different here.
They mention that Nightmare was a hard fight for him while Nightmare was also getting stronger in the process, not just getting stronger in the process, and there is another statement from another DMC1 jap Guidebook that said that Nightmare was not a easy victory for Dante, the same one that also says that he is capable to destroy the Demon World.
Nelo Angelo was not comparable to Dante, he was his equal foe, that's why they state that Tony, he was the only one capable to kill Dante at this point then Mundus, and he macthed his skills.
You mentioned Nightmare surviving against Dante as if it was relevant, that's why I brought up Griffon and Phantom.
That's not what the scan says. It only says that Nightmare is "tougher than before".
The scan literally says "In the midst of this fierce battle, Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent."
An ant can annoy me, that doesn't mean I can stomp it easily, same thing here. Hell Dante was being more annoyed by Phantom going after him several times and yet he still was chill with him and was going to let Griffon live if he surrendered. "Tougher than before" is far from enough proof for this shit.
Considering that no Griffon and Phantom have statements of their fights being more hard for Dante along with getting more stronger eacth round, like Nightmare and Nelo does, i would have to say you are wrong on that.
Yeah, he does, in Sacred Tears as mentioning earlier and also this one when Dante mention that beating Nightmare was not a easy victory
If a fight is tougher than before the previus one and they mention it means that Nightmare got stronger enougth to keep up with Dante even after he fougth and surpassed his limits many times to finally kill Nelo once and for all. And like i'm mentioned and linked the scan above, Dante even mentions that defeating Nightmare was not a easy victory for him, which just makes Sacred Tears statements even more legit.
I literally did and gonna do again just in case, Nelo was the only one to rival him in his skill and power departement as his equal opponents and be capable to kill him as mentioned in their fith fight along with Dante mentioning that Nelo is stronger then him in their fight in another jap guidebook. Mind you that Nightmare statement of being a "tougher than before" comes after he kill Nelo for good, which is after he say Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.". so i won't use that do try to debunk my argument, since it comes before Dante fougth Nightmare for the second and third time.
I explained this above, it happens after he kill Nelo Angelo once and for all, so that statement don't means much in the end, since even Mundus gived alot of trouble for him and almost killed him as stated in Sacred Tears.
Dante only mention that when he is comparing his skills to Nelo, since both they have the same skills in both ocasion, that's all, if we take Vol 2 literally as only Nelo being Dante only worth opponent, then that means Mundus was a ''easy job'' for him, which we know is that case, so don't take Vol2 at face value because they don't have all the details from DMC1, and like i'm said, Dante talks about both having the same skills in both ocasion in the novel.
Adressed this above, Sacred Teras and the other jap guidebook that i'm forgot the name also say that Nightamere was not a easy victory for Dante, so yeah, Nightamere was legit keeping up with Dante in DMC1 in every departement.
Well, true on some points, buuuuuut, since the same guidebook mentions that Dante victory over Nightmare was not a easy one in the same guidebook that he mention that Nightmare's armor was restraining his movements, sooo my point still stands here, since a have proof that Nightmare is comparared to Dante when he mentions that.
False Equivalence, you absolute CAN'T compare that to a fight where its said MULTIPLE times to be hard one for Dante
Strawman, my argument is more than that.
Circular argument
Neither does Nightmare, only Nelo.
Funny how it also mentions why: "its gel-like body does not accept any attacks. In addition, it creates a different world inside it which can be called a subspace, exerting a truly nightmare ability to cast the "shadow" of the demon that was created from the memory of the opponent who was pulled in it"
Except that isn't what the scans say nor does it ever mention that Nightmare is keeping up with Dante. Nightmare being tougher than before doesn't change things overall, he might be more durable but that's all.
Same thing again.
same thing as above
The scans are pretty obvious its about power, then Vol2 adds the skill part,
Oh yeah, the guides also states that it is because of his mind hax and his gel like body so it isn't legit.
Check above.
Change his speed to what? Just because he is being restricted doesn't mean he scales to Dante, being faster than the other generals doesn't make him scale to Dante either.
Fair, let's just add Dante and Nelo Angelo stuff for now
