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DC J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Downgrade

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Then I'm sorry to say that the scans in question simply don't support what you're saying, as I explained above, and if you want to convince me otherwise, you'll have to tell me, citing the exact words of the scans, why your interpretation works.
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I can actually debrief it for you on the scans in question. Since all the parts are already there in the Cosmology, the only thing that requires a change is the Cosmology being High 1-B.

So when you start from the beginning of the journey is the most conventional one: The Material Plane. This is where the dreams take root as one begins the journey of self-identification.

In the Dream, there are limitless planes of Existence that we make of our minds. Where the Divine Creators reach all parts of this very Existence playing inside his mind. In these planes, there are infinite dimensions mirroring each aspect of reality being created and destroyed.

With that, there are infinite amounts of parallel Universes when each choice being made it spins out more. Each choice makes possibilities that create more possibilities to spin out different takes on ideology creating planets, worlds, and even new Creations.

This is the first of “limitless” planes of Existence. Which already harbors infinite Universes each comprised of possibilities creating more.

One place that's deeper in the Dream and closer to God in Heaven. Heaven as we know transcends all aspects of reality. Heaven is one of still many “limitless” planes that have infinite variations due to infinite possibilities from the infinite parallel Universes and the infinite amount of dimensions. They all will pass through Heaven as that is one step closer to God.

Beyond the Conviental Heaven is Heaven for those who have different needs and views. Beyond even Heaven itself is where the journey is near complete that you turn into pure energy looking only to God.

Beyond even that? More journey, you keep going there is no end to these planes and words your will venture to beyond everything are just specks in the Endless Ocean of Love.

As we can see that the Dream only ends when the Smile commands it and bring about the end of the Kali Yuga with Mahapralaya. One journey never finishes because we will eventually figure out that we ourselves are one with the Oversoul, that we are dreamers, and we're God. You just keep going on in the endless sea full of more worlds and planes that keeps going. The Hierarchy is infinite, it doesn't end and the Dream doesn't end because after one destruction comes a new Creation.

I don't see why I have to explain this when the stories have pointed this out.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I can actually debrief it for you on the scans in question. Since all the parts are already there in the Cosmology, the only thing that requires a change is the Cosmology being High 1-B.

So when you start from the beginning of the journey is the most conventional one: The Material Plane. This is where the dreams take root as one begins the journey of self-identification.

In the Dream, there are limitless planes of Existence that we make of our minds. Where the Divine Creators reach all parts of this very Existence playing inside his mind. In these planes, there are infinite dimensions mirroring each aspect of reality being created and destroyed.

With that, there are infinite amounts of parallel Universes when each choice being made it spins out more. Each choice makes possibilities that create more possibilities to spin out different takes on ideology creating planets, worlds, and even new Creations.

This is the first of “limitless” planes of Existence. Which already harbors infinite Universes each comprised of possibilities creating more.

One place that's deeper in the Dream and closer to God in Heaven. Heaven as we know transcends all aspects of reality. Heaven is one of still many “limitless” planes that have infinite variations due to infinite possibilities from the infinite parallel Universes and the infinite amount of dimensions. They all will pass through Heaven as that is one step closer to God.

Beyond the Conviental Heaven is Heaven for those who have different needs and views. Beyond even Heaven itself is where the journey is near complete that you turn into pure energy looking only to God.

Beyond even that? More journey, you keep going there is no end to these planes and words your will venture to beyond everything are just specks in the Endless Ocean of Love.

As we can see that the Dream only ends when the Smile commands it and bring about the end of the Kali Yuga with Mahapralaya. One journey never finishes because we will eventually figure out that we ourselves are one with the Oversoul, that we are dreamers, and we're God. You just keep going on in the endless sea full of more worlds and planes that keeps going. The Hierarchy is infinite, it doesn't end and the Dream doesn't end because after one destruction comes a new Creation.

I don't see why I have to explain this when the stories have pointed this out.
Click to expand...
I'll let the staff handle this.
Antvasima said:
So can somebody explain the conclusions here so far please?
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What do you think about this?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If the question is "Heaven is 1-C" then I'm fine with it. While the layers aren't R>F I do agree that there's an infinite amount of them and The Presence's heaven stands at the top.
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There are infinite conventional Heaven and there are more “beyond” it. I don't know if that count as R>F or is warranted for a tier upgrade?
 
What are the conclusions here so far?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here so far?
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There's consensus to downgrade the Overvoid, Presence, and Source to 6D Low 1-C and remove the High 1-B creation and High 1-C Divine Presence. The rest of DeMatteis's cosmology tiering is still under discussion.
 
I don't know if this amounts to much but Matteis and I talked about this a while.

I asked if he believed the Presence transcends everyone Pralaya. I have some private chats about the Layers of Dreams, but I'm getting the implication they are infinite-hierarchy structures.

We should wait until he gets back to my public question but I believe his in line with me with the hierarchy.

The Spectre scans refer to the journey that the person will soon take. It's never decidedly going over that the journey is just spiritual because they still would have to pass through countless levels of existence.

Material Plane like the one we live is one but many transcendent by bigger realms. Heaven isn't the “next” it's simply the one you go to and much more goes on from there. There can still be arguments for High 1-B.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I don't know if this amounts to much but Matteis and I talked about this a while.

I asked if he believed the Presence transcends everyone Pralaya. I have some private chats about the Layers of Dreams, but I'm getting the implication they are infinite-hierarchy structures.

We should wait until he gets back to my public question but I believe his in line with me with the hierarchy.

The Spectre scans refer to the journey that the person will soon take. It's never decidedly going over that the journey is just spiritual because they still would have to pass through countless levels of existence.

Material Plane like the one we live is one but many transcendent by bigger realms. Heaven isn't the “next” it's simply the one you go to and much more goes on from there. There can still be arguments for High 1-B.
Click to expand...
"Countless levels of existence" could mean infinite but that's tricky. I think 1-B for the totality of God's dream/creation is safer in this case.
 
Elizio33 said:
"Countless levels of existence" could mean infinite but that's tricky. I think 1-B for the totality of God's dream/creation is safer in this case.
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I'm using countless in conjunction with Infinite. It's more or less the same. The real point is I asked him whether it was

A. A level of existence transcendence with each other. Referring to Wiki revision

B. Just a spiritual journey. Referring to Deagon claim which I disagree with not about the journey but disregarding the whole idea behind the layers of dream.

C. A bit of both.

He said all three and God contains it all and he is the real soul of reality.
 
Gasper said:
Dosen't work
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
The scan says "limitless planes of existence" it can be interpreted for infinite planes of existence or countless planes of existence to be safer. I think these limitless planes have R>F qualitative superiority over the material universe and transcend each other. If we take Heaven as an example, it is a "place that transcends places" and the Collective Unconscious is beyond space-time and human comprehension.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I'm using countless in conjunction with Infinite. It's more or less the same. The real point is I asked him whether it was

A. A level of existence transcendence with each other. Referring to Wiki revision

B. Just a spiritual journey. Referring to Deagon claim which I disagree with not about the journey but disregarding the whole idea behind the layers of dream.

C. A bit of both.

He said all three and God contains it all and he is the real soul of reality.
Click to expand...
Okay interesting. Can you share your chat with DeMatteis, please?
 
Anyways, the important thing is when I was reading the comics several times over. I don't really see where it was ever intended to only be a spiritual journey.

Not to mention there aren't technically more “dreams” per se. It's just Dream is Creation and on all levels the people “dream” of what Creation is through their interpretation until they finish the journey. During that journey that takes levels of existence that are layered. Matteis made it pretty obvious, I wanted some extra incentive to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting the story.
 
I have a great amount of respect for DeMatteis, and consider him to likely be the genuinely nicest and most altrustic western comic book writer in existence. Of course, it doesn't hurt that he has a similar religious faith to myself, and that he wrote really endearing and funny old Justice League comic books.

Anyway, if he said outright that there are infinite higher infinities of reality in his version of the DC Comics cosmology, we should preferably adjust our tiering for it accordingly.
 
Last edited:
I tried to restructure my post in an attempt to avoid misunderstandings.
 
J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology is a good start to the many changes we have implemented.

Snyder and Moresion should stay the same. They only have 3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension and two levels of reality.

For Vertigo, I wanna see if I can get some explanation of Lucifer's Creation. I wanna know what psychical worlds are if he contain infinite dimensions whether Mike intended them to be sets of infinite or just infinite parallel dimensions. It may be a stretch but I want to see if they base them on Set Theory or some sort of larger axiom. Mike Carey has just as many flowery, metaphorical, and too many abstruse wording like Matteis.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I can weigh in if I see the quotes I guess, but in particular I wouldn't like basing a large massive upgrade on a VSBW directed set of author quotes.
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The story implies it and pretty much directly says it. The quote complements that. It's not randomly coming out of the blue.

He said “All that” to my question of what the layers of existence meant. I was asking to make sure it's what the scans meant.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I'm not saying they're unusable, I can just see push back to using them.

But I guess I could just be overthinking the problem.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I can see that. However, the story has always been in the notion of that understanding of the planes of Existence. It never changed so I never understood why the change was even needed in the first place.

I've read that comic multiple times and I don't see where you could interpret those realms as just part of a spiritual journey and only would be Low 1-C. Which doesn't make sense but then again we need more opinion on this.
 
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