TenSura WN Major Revision - Part 14

[Astral_Trinity439]

Firstly, this thread there is no sufficient proof for Low 1-C, Qawsed did not accept that time flow in unsignificant 5D space beyond conventional spacetime is hyper-timeline's time flow, he only accepted that time travel's time flow beyond or end of conventional spacetime into retroactively destroyed spacetime is hyper-timeline's flow.

Not really, no, read the thread again, and read the explanation I gave him before he accepted that argument of mine.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Not really, no, read the thread again, and read the explanation I gave him before he accepted that argument of mine.

Can you share the link exactly where Qawsed agrees with you? If there was no time travel argument, Qawsed would not have accepted 1-C anyway.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Can you share the link exactly where Qawsed agrees with you? If there was no time travel argument, Qawsed would not have accepted 1-C anyway.

My last post to Qawsedf was this one, where I gave him a thorough explanation on how the universe ended, how there was time beyond it, and how later that higher form of time ended, and the time travel stuff afterwards.
Qawsedf's response was this.

Qawsedf directly quoted this part of mine:

1. Second Time Leap:
   1. Now, Rimuru is again at the "Beyond Space and Time", a point where the "Universe has been destroyed" and the "Timeline has ended"; meaning that 4D time is nonexistent here. There's no "past", "Present" or "future" of that space-time/universe since its destroyed as an entire timeline.
   2. Rimuru Time-leaps again, to the "past where everyone is waiting" [aka where the 4D timeline was not destroyed] and although we're left at a cliff-hanger here since the Volume ended, going by the fact that most things about the time travel remain the same in the WN as well, we can say that this time-leap takes Rimuru back to where his friends were, because the same happened in the Web Novel version.
      
      This was from me

There's no "past", "Present" or "future" of that space-time/universe since its destroyed as an entire timeline.

If the franchise has an accepted Tier 2 rating because they completely destroyed a space time, then yeah it would count.

I don't know enough about the verse to weigh in, but a basic overview says that they're Tier 2, so I guess you can list me as agreeing with the proposal. Though not the Low 1-A stuff that was mentioned like a page ago.

This was from Qawsedf

You can see that Qawsedf specifically quoted my part regarding the second time leap. This timeleap was after Rimuru had reversed-travel to Beyond Space-Time once again through the space-time distortion path[subspace] from the End of Space and Time, and was again at Beyond Space and Time, the point where Feldway had BFRed him to and where he [feldway] had destroyed the entire timeline/universe of the cardinal world [but not the cardinal world itself that's a collection of those timelines]. The second time-leap was then from "Beyond Space and Time" to where feldway had not destroyed the timeline.

Anyways, if you want to go in-depth on the prev thread, that's a topic better suited for general discussion, so move it to that if there if that's the topic you want to talk about.

 

[CodeCCLL]

see

When Qawsed made his comment agreeing with you for Low 1-C in the LN version, he also considered the argument you used for 1-C in this thread.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

If a 5d hyperspace is being serviced by its own time shouldn't it be considered 6d ,i remember ultima stating it like that

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

He said it here

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

If a 5d hyperspace is being serviced by its own time shouldn't it be considered 6d ,i remember ultima stating it like that

Assuming by "5D" you mean the Space in which Ciel drifted beyond space-time, no, because we don't know the size of that hyperspace, therefore, we assume it's insignificant in size.

When Qawsed made his comment agreeing with you for Low 1-C in the LN version, he also considered the argument you used for 1-C in this thread.

He considered the second time leap argument, which, as we both know, is time travel from beyond space-time to the present that didn't exist/was destroyed.
It wasn't from the end of space-time, that was only in the first leap.

The difference in case of WN is that there was only one leap, and that was from the end of space-time.
Though, the main argument for the Low 1-C in this case is Chloe travelling in the "World-line" instead, while the 1-C is for Ri's leap

 

[CodeCCLL]

Though, the main argument for the Low 1-C in this case is Chloe travelling in the "World-line" instead, while the 1-C is for Ri's leap

I'm also saying, that according to Qawsed; this wouldn't be a hypertimeline unless there was something in the World-line indicating that WN Chloe had retroactively traveled to the past of a destroyed timeline, like Rimuru.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm also saying, that according to Qawsed; this wouldn't be a hypertimeline unless there was something in the World-line indicating that WN Chloe had retroactively traveled to the past of a destroyed timeline, like Rimuru.

While we don't have a statement that Chloe travelled to a destroyed timeline, we do have this:

1. We know the structure has a name, "World-line".
2. If you look at the scan, he says Chloe only succeeded in travelling in the World-line "this time", which means the previous instances where she "normally" travelled to the past were different.
3. Rimuru is BFRed to a point called "Beyond Space-Time" where Yuuki has retroactively destroyed the universe; as a space-time, but is unable to destroy the entire "World" [this helps distinguish the World-line to a single universe within it], yet the whole world was not destroyed, not until he reached the end of time.
4. Yuuki is supposed to have an eternal lifespan [immortality type 1], yet he still dies "because his lifespan was over". This indicates that the "Time" that Yuuki experienced and which means the "Time" that was the cause of his death is different from normal 4D time.
5. One of the most direct proofs; After Veldanava created the entire world[as the whole of great spirits, mainly the great spirit of time which was the reason "the world began to move in a one-way flow of life and death"] yet even after he had created the Great Spirit of Time, inside that World-line, several parallel worlds were created later on. There was an order to these things; Veldanava created the whole world -> lost turn null -> proceeded to create several parallel universes -> much time went one, he married Lucia and etc. etc.

I think the last one is the most clear one. But to sum it up, this higher form of time has the following aspects:

• It is not affected by the destruction of the entire space-time and still continues to flow.
• It flows in an extra-dimensional space [the space that Ciel and Rimuru drifted in after the BFR]. In that Space, this time is "Distorted" compared to the regular flow of time.
• The "End of the World"[World-line] is differentiated from the end of a single space-time continuum inside the world.
• This higher form of Time is likely the Great Spirit of Time, since it's clearly stated that Chloe travelled in time this time with the help of the Spirit of Time.
• This higher form of Time dictates the order of the creation of the space-time continuums/parallel worlds

Now, you may ask, what about Rimuru's time travel being 1-C, as in, do we have any instance where that form of Time is actually addressed? Well, yes, here:

In the primeval past, when the Spirit of Light and the Spirit of Darkness were born, the angels' eggs were born with the blessing of light, and the seeds of demons were scattered under the wave of darkness.
When the Spirit of Time was born, the eggs hatched and the seeds sprouted.
As conceptual beings, they were born as pure energy bodies without any physical form.

During this time, two great spirits, light and dark, arose.
This was the moment the world was born.
But the world was just a drifting existence.
Light and Shadow, Yin and Yang. Existences that cannot intersect with each other even if they tried.
One day, the Great Spirit of Time is born.
It exists as the child of light and darkness.

And yes, the "One day" isn't just some mistranslation. The literal Kanji is "ある時", which means "At some point in time" or "once a time", so "one day" isn't far from it at all.
As for "Primeval past", tte Kanji is "太古の昔", "太古" means Ancient or Primeval past, and "昔" means Long ago.
So again, indication of some sort of Time that dictated this order of things, the order in which the great spirits were born.
Since the "World" and the GS of Light and Darkness were born in this primeval past, we can say that this form of time encompasses the birth and destruction of the hypertimeline[great spirit of time].

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bump

 

[Eisoks]

3weeks of waiting incoming

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agree

W, agree.

I agree, plus I was planning on making a thread about this soon.

Shouldn't this be "likely" ?

Agree. I think it's a solid 1-C since it's shown that there is a second perpendicular time axis via Rimuru's Time Travel.

Agreed

Agreed

agree

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To all of ya'll who either agreed or disagreed with some reasoning provided, could you restate your vote?
I've added another thing to the CRT; Subspace, which I discovered was not "insignificant" in size at at all.

Here's an example of an Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D.

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

To all of ya'll who either agreed or disagreed with some reasoning provided, could you restate your vote?
I've added another thing to the CRT; Subspace, which I discovered was not "insignificant" in size at at all.

Here's an example of an Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D.

Agree

 

[Lycoris4812]

To all of ya'll who either agreed or disagreed with some reasoning provided, could you restate your vote?
I've added another thing to the CRT; Subspace, which I discovered was not "insignificant" in size at at all.

Here's an example of an Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D.

Looks interesting, agree.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Neutral on the change

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

To all of ya'll who either agreed or disagreed with some reasoning provided, could you restate your vote?
I've added another thing to the CRT; Subspace, which I discovered was not "insignificant" in size at at all.

Here's an example of an Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D.

Agreed, (again xD)

 

[CodeCCLL]

Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D

• Rimuru "drifted" through this Space before waking up[1], but we also know that he did so for an uncountable stretch of Time (Eternity)[1].

Yes, it in no way constitutes proof that Rimuru has literally traveled an infinite distance in said space.

• It is also outright called the "Infinite Corridor"[14][6][13].

Zegion using the labyrinth's [Infinite Corridor].

「Then I'll throw the isolated labyrinth into the Infinite Corridor』!」(Ramiris)

There is such terrible writing or translation that I really don't know what to say.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

• Rimuru "drifted" through this Space before waking up[1], but we also know that he did so for an uncountable stretch of Time (Eternity)[1].

Yes, it in no way constitutes proof that Rimuru has literally traveled an infinite distance in said space.

Doesn’t really need to be. It is there to show that it is a significant size space that rimuru could drift for so long

• It is also outright called the "Infinite Corridor"[14][6][13].

There is such terrible writing or translation that I really don't know what to say.

This isn’t really an argument

 

[CodeCCLL]

Doesn’t really need to be. It is there to show that it is a significant size space that rimuru could drift for so long

It doesn't work that way, at least not yet. You have to prove that this 5D space is infinite.

This isn’t really an argument

I don't know why you're saying "this is not an argument" like a bot when I'm not even making an argument. You've done the same thing more than once.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

It doesn't work that way, at least not yet.

Why wouldn’t it? The space is proven to be significant in size and can therefore be scaled.

I don't know why you're saying "this is not an argument" like a bot when I'm not even making an argument. You've done the same thing more than once.

I don’t recall saying this much before. Prob mistaken me for what astral always says. “There is such thing as this” is indeed an argument as it is a clear case of disagreement.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

• Rimuru "drifted" through this Space before waking up[1], but we also know that he did so for an uncountable stretch of Time (Eternity)[1].

Yes, it in no way constitutes proof that Rimuru has literally traveled an infinite distance in said space.

Just a supporting evidence

It is also outright called the "Infinite Corridor"[14][6][13].


There is such terrible writing or translation that I really don't know what to say.

I've checked the raws, it is indeed Infinite.
The Kanji is 『無限回廊』
無限 -> Infinity
回廊 -> Corridor
And yes, this is Infinity in the literal sense, according to Japanese Wikipedia

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This isn’t really an argument

I don’t recall saying this much before. Prob mistaken me for what astral always says. “There is such thing as this” is indeed an argument as it is a clear case of disagreement.

Code isn't "arguing" against it to begin with. So far from my interactions with him, I can say he simply meant "I don't trust the FTL, so can you provide the direct japanese translation?"

 

[CodeCCLL]

indeed

I'm not talking about "infinite". It is said that the Labyrinth's/has Infinite Corridor, then there is mention of throwing the isolated Labyrinth into the Infinite Corridor, the statements are ridiculously.

 

[Meli_Tempest]

I look at it later

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Neutral on that

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm not talking about "infinite". It is said that the Labyrinth's/has Infinite Corridor, then there is mention of throwing the isolated Labyrinth into the Infinite Corridor, the statements are ridiculously.

I'm pretty sure I already explained that in the description of the scans, if you didn't notice...

Context: Labyrinth isn't the Infinite Corridor, nor is "Infinite Corridor" some "Skill Space" like Imaginary Space. It's simply Subspace.

Context: The Labyrinth is already "inside" Subspace/Infinite Corridor, it's simply that it still has an Anchor to the World. The "Ejection" here means the disconnection of that Anchor. It's like a Spacecraft hovering in Space, but has some sort of connection to Earth, but once a person goes outside the Spacecraft into the Outer space, they lose all contact and/or connection.

Context: We already know from before that the Labyrinth was in Infinite Corridor. So if someone bunches the walls and gets outside the Labyrinth, they should be inside the Infinite Corridor.
Context: Yet they were greeted with Subspace instead, which is the Outside of the Labyrinth. This proves that "Subspace" and "Infinite Corridor" are the same thing.

Unless, are you saying I should direct-translate all of those scans? [I can, but I'll need a confirmation to do so since if that's not what you want, there's no need for me to spend time{at least an hour} translating them like I did with the rest; Kanji to Kanji meaning]

 

[Meli_Tempest]

The problem is not whether or not it is infinite, since by itself, any negligible 5D space is in fact infinite in some sense, but to qualify as an extra dimension your extra volume must be infinite.

What do I mean by this? That the next volume must be made up of an uncountable infinite number of the lower dimensional spaces.

Just as (by assigning values from 0 to 10 to the height of a cube) we would be able to cut an uncountable infinite number of square "slices", where each would be equivalent to an individual real number between 0 and 10.

I think we more or less understand the problem here.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The problem is not whether or not it is infinite, since by itself, any negligible 5D space is in fact infinite in some sense, but to qualify as an extra dimension your extra volume must be infinite.

An insignificant space is only really "Infinite" from the perspective of a normal lower-dimensional being

What do I mean by this? That the next volume must be made up of an uncountable infinite number of the lower dimensional spaces.

Just as (by assigning values from 0 to 10 to the height of a cube) we would be able to cut an uncountable infinite number of square "slices", where each would be equivalent to an individual real number between 0 and 10.

I think we more or less understand the problem here.

The problem itself doesn't even exist, because you're assuming that "Infinite" would not be referring to the subspace itself, when that's not the case.
It's the subspace being called infinite, not something else
To top that off, we know that ramiris spans her labyrinth inside subspace; the Labyrinth extends in that subspace. However, the normal world residences don't perceive it as going "underground" or "in the sky". Why? Because its extension in the 3rd dimension with respect to those beings is 0.

Take it as this; if X, Y and Z are the 3 normal dimensions, and U is the 4th spatial dimension, then normal people can only perceive something that is not only within 3D space, but simultaneously also has non-0 extensions in all of those 3D Spaces.

On the other hand, that's not the case for Lab, because Labyrnth's spatial extension is 0 in one of the 3 normal dimensions [X, Y, Z], instead, that aspect is extended in the 4th dimension, U.

So the Labyrinth's coordinates would be like [1, 1, 0, 1] where the last one is always the 4th dimension U.

Yet the infinite corridor is infinite in comparison to the labyrinth, which sufficiently speaks for itself that the "Infinite" is referring to the extensions of U[4th dimension] and other 2 dimensions[let's say X and Y].

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Agree

 

[CodeCCLL]

It is said that even Guy's state 2000+ years ago can destroy the World, and there is a statement that Milim in the Tenma war can destroy the World, so if you think that every explanation about the destruction of the World is valid for the multiverse, you should argue the all god tiers are Low 1-C.

By the way, no one has yet answered why Guy, Velda and Milim's statements about the destruction of the world do not concern the multiverse.

At least be consistent in scaling.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

It is said that even Guy's state 2000+ years ago can destroy the World, and there is a statement that Milim in the Tenma war can destroy the World, so if you think that every explanation about the destruction of the World is valid for the multiverse, you should argue the all god tiers are Low 1-C.

I missed this for some reason, answering now:
Hmm, I suppose that's somewhat valid too. IIRC it was stated that beings like Guy and Ramiris were also administrators of the World that prevent the world from being destroyed; that means they should have the power to protect it from someone that could destroy it.

However, here comes the somewhat, Rimuru stated that there could have been an observer for each world, and the line above that also implies that Guy and Ramiris are only observers for the world Rimuru is currently in[known as Cardinal World in the LN].

Tho if my memory serves me correctly, all God tiers [except maybe Veldora] participated in the attack against Yuuki, right? That would already grant them the multiverse destruction rating.

Also, could you send me the specific scans for the part I bolded in your reply?

 

[CodeCCLL]

I missed this for some reason, answering now:
Hmm, I suppose that's somewhat valid too. IIRC it was stated that beings like Guy and Ramiris were also administrators of the World that prevent the world from being destroyed; that means they should have the power to protect it from someone that could destroy it.

However, here comes the somewhat, Rimuru stated that there could have been an observer for each world, and the line above that also implies that Guy and Ramiris are only observers for the world Rimuru is currently in[known as Cardinal World in the LN].

Tho if my memory serves me correctly, all God tiers [except maybe Veldora] participated in the attack against Yuuki, right? That would already grant them the multiverse destruction rating.

Also, could you send me the specific scans for the part I bolded in your reply?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Guy (thousands years ago) and Veldanava (without Turn Null) can still destroy the World.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Velda could destroy the World if he gets serious.

Milim must have her own statement (before or after of Veldora vs Velgrynd fight), but I can't find it right now. I will share it when I find it.

 

[Digital_Franz]

To all of ya'll who either agreed or disagreed with some reasoning provided, could you restate your vote?
I've added another thing to the CRT; Subspace, which I discovered was not "insignificant" in size at at all.

Here's an example of an Infinite 4th Spatial Dimension being accepted Low 1-C 5D.

After reading the blog, I understand where it's coming from. I'm not sure Willverse is the best example (one should always be wary of those verses with Chinese content and their contexts) but I agree.

 

[Meli_Tempest]

An insignificant space is only really "Infinite" from the perspective of a normal lower-dimensional being

The problem itself doesn't even exist, because you're assuming that "Infinite" would not be referring to the subspace itself, when that's not the case.
It's the subspace being called infinite, not something else
To top that off, we know that ramiris spans her labyrinth inside subspace; the Labyrinth extends in that subspace. However, the normal world residences don't perceive it as going "underground" or "in the sky". Why? Because its extension in the 3rd dimension with respect to those beings is 0.

Take it as this; if X, Y and Z are the 3 normal dimensions, and U is the 4th spatial dimension, then normal people can only perceive something that is not only within 3D space, but simultaneously also has non-0 extensions in all of those 3D Spaces.

On the other hand, that's not the case for Lab, because Labyrnth's spatial extension is 0 in one of the 3 normal dimensions [X, Y, Z], instead, that aspect is extended in the 4th dimension, U.

So the Labyrinth's coordinates would be like [1, 1, 0, 1] where the last one is always the 4th dimension U.

Yet the infinite corridor is infinite in comparison to the labyrinth, which sufficiently speaks for itself that the "Infinite" is referring to the extensions of U[4th dimension] and other 2 dimensions[let's say X and Y].

Ok, I think I understand better what you mean, I agree.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

After reading the blog, I understand where it's coming from. I'm not sure Willverse is the best example (one should always be wary of those verses with Chinese content and their contexts) but I agree.

I smell racism here

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Guy (thousands years ago) and Veldanava (without Turn Null) can still destroy the World.

Oh, I didn't know this statement. Then yeah, his Multiverse destruction rating should be solid.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Velda could destroy the World if he gets serious.

Hmm, since it was Guy[a trusted source] who thought that, it should work pretty well as well, given Velda was apparently superior to Guy.

Milim must have her own statement (before or after of Veldora vs Velgrynd fight), but I can't find it right now. I will share it when I find it.

I think the fact that Guy couldn't defeat Milim should alone be enough to warrant that, but sure.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Velda was apparently superior to Guy.

Guy with Wrathful King Satan is the equal to Velda and Satanael Milim.

Chloe ~ Velzard ~ Guy Crimson < Milim Nava (Wrathful King Satan) ~ Guy Crimson (with copied Wrathful King Satan) ~ Velda < Yuuki (EoS) ~ Guy Crimson (EoS with Abyss God Nodens)

 

[CodeCCLL]

Then yeah, his Multiverse destruction rating should be solid

Do you really think it makes sense that Veldanava could destroy the Multiverse even after losing Turn Null?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Guy with Wrathful King Satan is the equal to Velda and Satanael Milim.

I thought you weren't differentiating Velda from Yuuki, but if you are, then yeah, it makes sense.

Do you really think it makes sense that Veldanava could destroy the Multiverse even after losing Turn Null?

Hmm, now that I think about it, no....
But with that logic, I think keeping Guy at a single-universe level is fine given that Velzard mentions "This World" specifically.

As for the potential question of "Then how can Guy do it?", well, its a combined attack after evolution. I have seen multiple ratings of a certain tier being given to characters just for participating in the battle against a stronger enemy and contributing damage, even if not outright killing the enemy]. And as for "How can Yuuki do it?", well, after absorbing the combined attack. After all, it was Rimuru who said that the energy that yuuki absorbed could destroy the world, after Rimuru had came back from EoST and after Ciel explaining what he could do with turn null.