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DC J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Downgrade

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You suggest that Overvoid is 6D thus just Low 1-C. By recommending that, it causes a chain scaling effect to those who scale to it or are it. The Source and the Presence from the revision project is accepted to be the same as the Overvoid.

So by downgrading the Overvoid, we have to downgrade the other two “unless” we don't use the logic that the Overvoid is the same as the other two. How is that hard to understand?
 
You suggest that Overvoid is 6D thus just Low 1-C. By recommending that, it causes a chain scaling effect to those who scale to it or are it. The Source and the Presence from the revision project is accepted to be the same as the Overvoid.

So by downgrading the Overvoid, we have to downgrade the other two “unless” we don't use the logic that the Overvoid is the same as the other two. How is that hard to understand?
I understand now. Your first post was worded vaguely.
 
I've listed my reason. However, seeing as TF Pralaya is an infinite Ocean that is beyond Creation. Would literally be equated to Overvoid, Void, and The Great Darknesss. All the limitless energy of the the unmanifest field that makes Creation look like a speck. It's above all the dimensions, duality, concepts, ideas, and Creators of Creation being gulped by an aspect. The whole thing would be 1-C.
No. It's Low 1-C. Transcending creation only makes her Low 1-C not 1-C.
The Universal Model is Low 2-C. All the way up to 2-A would already be considered a degree of infinity. Low 1-C is one to two which is where Heaven is scaled to. 1-C is three to five which Pralaya is. Heaven is one and the whole of Creation is two, which an avatar is around at. Three to five would come from True Form. QS is already enough to be granted for a tier-up based on setting and context, TF Pralaya is just an aspect of the DP. Like how the Infinite Ocean makes Creation looks small, DP makes Pralaya look insignificant.
Creation - 2-A.

Heaven in Matt's cosmology doesn't have any QS over creation. Only Silver City in Vertigo is Low 1-C. Even it's Low 1-C still the same outcome.

Pralaya - Low 1-C

DP is also Low 1-C because all of creation is a dream, and we shouldn't use NLF here to say Pralaya is also a part of dream. That's just creation and beings exist within it.

You are right for most of parts expect one.
 
So have you reached any conclusions here, and if so, what are they?
 
No. It's Low 1-C. Transcending creation only makes her Low 1-C not 1-C.
Transcending Creation as an avatar. The full Ocean of Nothing would be much higher than just an avatar.
Creation - 2-A.

Heaven in Matt's cosmology doesn't have any QS over creation. Only Silver City in Vertigo is Low 1-C. Even it's Low 1-C still the same outcome.
Heaven is still accepted as Low 1-C.
Pralaya - Low 1-C
The avatar yes for transcending Creation. The Sea of Brahman where everything came from is obviously much bigger and more fundamental than the avatar.
DP is also Low 1-C because all of creation is a dream, and we shouldn't use NLF here to say Pralaya is also a part of dream. That's just creation and beings exist within it.
“Everything” including the Void is part of it. Pralaya function as is because DP commands it. DP transcends everything all at once including Pralaya.
You are right for most of parts expect one.
?
 
Transcending Creation as an avatar. The full Ocean of Nothing would be much higher than just an avatar.
Transcending creation isn't remotely close for Low 1-C tier. You should prove QS. TF would likely be Low 1-C.
Heaven is still accepted as Low 1-C.
In vertigo? Yes. But any evidence for QS regarding the heaven in D.M's cosmology because there are many heavens. That would be Low 1-C if so.
“Everything” including the Void is part of it. Pralaya function as is because DP commands it. DP transcends everything all at once including Pralaya.
Yes. but he only dreamed the creation, since Pralaya is an aspect of DP, it doesn't count. Of course, he transcend everything but "transcending" term isn't enough to reach Tier 1. You should prove QS for every part.
I meant I agree with Low 1-C scalings not 1-C.

To sum up, there are so many Low 1-C scalings here. but those higher infinites don't stack upon each other to generalize 1-C. At best, there are only two levels of infinities above 4-D.
 
Transcending creation isn't remotely close for Low 1-C tier. You should prove QS. TF would likely be Low 1-C.
Due to transcending Heaven and Creation as an avatar and we are considering that Heaven is 5D. Then Pralaya's avatar a small glimpse of the infinite nothingness she is would be 6D. That would upscale the entire Ocean of Nothing being much much higher than Creation and starts at 7D which is 1-
In vertigo? Yes. But any evidence for QS regarding the heaven in D.M's cosmology because there are many heavens. That would be Low 1-C if so.
Can it be any clearer? It's accepted as Low 1-C. Why are we arguing about something that's accepted?
Yes. but he only dreamed the creation, since Pralaya is an aspect of DP, it doesn't count. Of course, he transcend everything but "transcending" term isn't enough to reach Tier 1. You should prove QS for every part.
Everything is an “aspect” of the Divine Presence that part isn't relevant. What is more important here is that in the story of Creation with the Smile behind the Universe and later on in the story. We find out all things which come from him which includes the Void(Pralaya) nothing but a dream to it. It very well includes Pralaya.
I meant I agree with Low 1-C scalings not 1-C.
Seeing as you didn't even acknowledge Heaven being Low 1-C, which we see in the revision project then I don't see why I need to argue for this.
To sum up, there are so many Low 1-C scalings here. but those higher infinites don't stack upon each other to generalize 1-C. At best, there are only two levels of infinities above 4-D.
You don't stack of infinite for 1-C from Low 1-C. That doesn't really begin until High 1-B where you need sets of infinite.

4-D being above the Multiverse? Heaven would then be 5D, an avatar of Pralaya would be 6D, TF Pralaya would be 7D, and Divine Presence completely with QS transcendents all of that.
 
Seeing as you didn't even acknowledge Heaven being Low 1-C, which we see in the revision project then I don't see why I need to argue for this.
You have the scan for it? It doesn't really matter whether it's accepted or not.
You don't stack of infinite for 1-C from Low 1-C. That doesn't really begin until High 1-B where you need sets of infinite.
Eh?? I don't understand what you're saying.
4-D being above the Multiverse? Heaven would then be 5D, an avatar of Pralaya would be 6D, TF Pralaya would be 7D, and Divine Presence completely with QS transcendents all of that.
Nah. I meant Low 1-C is two inf> above 4-D. I don't agree with 6-D and 7-D part because you should provide evidence for QS for it. True form or transcending it isn't enough.
 
You have the scan for it? It doesn't really matter whether it's accepted or not.
It does matter because it's literally what they will implement. So instead I'll just quote it off the revision:

In DeMatteis' storylines, Heaven is a higher plane of existence. It's more deep, more true and closer to the Presence than the Material Universe. For example, Indra's Fourth Heaven is a place that is not a place, but transcends place, referring to a higher dimensional realm. Heaven contains an infinite number of universes tailored to the beliefs of its inhabitants. These various heavens are said to be a state of mind rather than true places, with different planes beyond the conventional Heavens meant to give comfort to the souls of the defuncts.

The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

Eh?? I don't understand what you're saying.
High 1-B requires R>F if infinite sets above the Universal Model. Anything below that only requires the set based on coordinate space. Getting a tier up between Low 1-C to 1-B requires something to be QS over that infinitely. The stacking of infinity doesn't begin until High 1-B or Low 1-A.
Nah. I meant Low 1-C is two inf> above 4-D. I don't agree with 6-D and 7-D part because you should provide evidence for QS for it. True form or transcending it isn't enough.
I rather we use the Universal Model(Low 2-C) not coordinate space because you have to look at that first to equate it to the dimensional space it could occupy based on tier.

Low 1-C has two parts where you can equate dimensional space. Which is 5D and 6D. Unless those two are in a separate category there isn't a need for transcendence because it's not evidently clear that 6D would need QS over 5D without the context of the tiers. What just says beings in this tier can be equated to 5D or 6D coordinate space. What there suggests there needs to be transcendence in the same tier?

QS and Transcendence between tiers happen with scaling up in tier from Low 1-C to 1-C. 5D And 6D are only larger spaces, not higher dimensions because Low 1-C can occupy both. If you're Low 1-C and you fully transcend with QS you're just 1-C.

I can see why but this is a “bigger space” not a higher dimension suggesting R>F to the lower one. You just need a bigger infinite space between 5D and 6D due to it being coordinate space. Pralaya's avatar is bigger and more fundamental than Creation and that's a glimpse of the entire Sea if Brahma.
 
High 1-C may not be viable as a guaranteed tier for the Divine Presence but I think keeping 1-C, possibly High 1-C is viable enough. Maybe just keep Divine Presence 1-C.

However, for Pralaya I believe she should have two parts. An avatar being Low 1-C and her True Form being 1-C.
 
High 1-C may not be viable as a guaranteed tier for the Divine Presence but I think keeping 1-C, possibly High 1-C is viable enough. Maybe just keep Divine Presence 1-C.

However, for Pralaya I believe she should have two parts. An avatar being Low 1-C and her True Form being 1-C.
There is no evidence for "possibly High 1-C", which would require at least six transcendences above the 2-A cosmology.
 
It does matter because it's literally what they will implement. So instead I'll just quote it off the revision:

In DeMatteis' storylines, Heaven is a higher plane of existence. It's more deep, more true and closer to the Presence than the Material Universe. For example, Indra's Fourth Heaven is a place that is not a place, but transcends place, referring to a higher dimensional realm. Heaven contains an infinite number of universes tailored to the beliefs of its inhabitants. These various heavens are said to be a state of mind rather than true places, with different planes beyond the conventional Heavens meant to give comfort to the souls of the defuncts.
That scan was debunked by deagonx in previous thread or check his profile, he explained the context of it. I guess ant also removed it from cosmology blog?

The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.
Other scans only say it is a transcendental plane which isn't enough for Low 1-C.
I rather we use the Universal Model(Low 2-C) not coordinate space because you have to look at that first to equate it to the dimensional space it could occupy based on tier.

Low 1-C has two parts where you can equate dimensional space. Which is 5D and 6D. Unless those two are in a separate category there isn't a need for transcendence because it's not evidently clear that 6D would need QS over 5D without the context of the tiers. What just says beings in this tier can be equated to 5D or 6D coordinate space. What there suggests there needs to be transcendence in the same tier?
Because FAQ explicitly says "transcendence" is a vague term and need to prove QS in order to generalize Tier 1.
I can see why but this is a “bigger space” not a higher dimension suggesting R>F to the lower one. You just need a bigger infinite space between 5D and 6D due to it being coordinate space. Pralaya's avatar is bigger and more fundamental than Creation and that's a glimpse of the entire Sea if Brahma.
It can also be 5-D.
 
That scan was debunked by deagonx in previous thread or check his profile, he explained the context of it. I guess ant also removed it from cosmology blog?
No, this part of the book still remain. Deagonx debunking was R>F dreams for a High 1-B Cosmology.
Other scans only say it is a transcendental plane which isn't enough for Low 1-C.
A transcendental plain that's more real, deeper, and closer to the Divine Presence would suggest so.
Because FAQ explicitly says "transcendence" is a vague term and need to prove QS in order to generalize Tier 1.
Yeah because you assumed that's the only thing “Heaven” had. Heaven still has layers to it and where they're deeper Heavens which would a mass to Low 1-C.
It can also be 5-D.
Right.....
 
Both. He addressed the same scan in the hyperlink you given above. The scan with Bob and Spectre.
His is addressing Heaven R>F claim for upscaling Creation to High 1-B. He never said Heaven isn't Low 1-C that it isn't transcendent of the Material World. He was addressing how we shouldn't reference R>F of Heaven during the Spectre Comics run to suggest it would be High 1-B.

If you want you can ask him if he sees Heaven as Low 1-C.
 
And that scan wasn't talking about true heaven, so it also debunks Low 1-C scale at same time. Doesn't it?
 
And that scan wasn't talking about true heaven, so it also debunks Low 1-C scale at same time. Doesn't it?
There is no “true Heaven.” You simply go past the conventional Heaven where your soul becomes ideas until you drift across the Sea of Eternity. Finding self-identity with the Oversoul.

Heaven still is transcendent of the Material Realm. This OP even agreed to it.
 
There is no “true Heaven.” You simply go past the conventional Heaven where your soul becomes ideas until you drift across the Sea of Eternity. Finding self-identity with the Oversoul.

Heaven still is transcendent of the Material Realm. This OP even agreed to it.
Ok but how it leads to 1-C?
 
Pralaya and DP transcend it. I don't understand what you're trying to ask here, so I assume that's what you meant.
DP transcend creation as a dream which is again Low 1-C. Pralaya's trancendence is Low 1-C. (1 level)

Creation- 2-A
Heaven- Low 1-C
DP- Low 1-C transcend 2-A creation. if it includes heaven Low 1-C (2nd level)
Pralaya- Low 1-C. (transcend 2-A creation)

We don't know whether DP sees TFP as a dream, it's only just creation.
 
DP transcend creation as a dream which is again Low 1-C. Pralaya's trancendence is Low 1-C. (1 level)

Creation- 2-A
Heaven- Low 1-C
DP- Low 1-C transcend 2-A creation. if it includes heaven Low 1-C (2nd level)
Pralaya- Low 1-C. (transcend 2-A creation)

We don't know whether DP sees TFP as a dream, it's only just creation.
There is evidence. The Smile which we know as one of its identities is beyond Pralays where it formed nothing into all of Creation by the act of duality. This is still within a dream because all parts of it including the creation of the Multiverse began when it commanded it. The Smile is interacting to start that process. The Divine Presence is Brahman, the underlying Void beyond all Voids completely transcending everyone including gods and Pralaya. They are” all” part of its dream. This is why the Sea of Brahman is the Sleep of God or the Creator’s Mind in which he was from the Ocean of Nothing and creates it with Love. The Dream also includes TF Pralaya who is insignificant as everything else is to the Divine Presence.

As for Pralaya, her avatar already transcends Creation. All she did was emanate a form that the JLD could comprehend. She is the nothingness of the infinite nothingness. An avatar is already bigger, more fundamental, and transcends Creation. The entire Ocean would see that aspect as something small and Creation as a flicker of light to the immense nothingness it is. Low 1-C for the avatar for transcending Creation including Heaven. 1-C for her True Form which makes that look insignificant. Divine Presence for making all of them look small, completely transcending all of them at once.
 
Well, the physical multiverse is 4-D. Heaven, Collective Unconscious, Realm of Now are 5-D. Hierarchy of dream reaching the Oversoul/Logoz 6-D. Pralaya (True Form/God's Unconscious/Sleep of Brahma) 7-D. Divine Presence/The Smile 8-D.
 
What is the hierarchy of dream?
Divine Presence dreams everything in levels.

1st. Material Plane
2nd. Metaphysical Realm (Heaven and Collective Unconcious)
3rd. Beyond Heaven/Sea of Eternity
4th. Sea of Brahman/God’s Unconcious
5th. Oneness/The Smile

All this happening in the Dream of God. The Smile is God within the Dream. The Divine Presence is the God outside of it making everything out of its imagination.
 
Just to note, I believe Pralaya is older than the Darkness. Yes after the act of Love, she did inherently become it but before it is quite different. Nothing is a concept in the beginning when everything was nothing, only becoming Darkness when the Light contrasts it. From the Smile came Darkness and Light and with that born duality of the Lords of Chaos and Order.

I'm not sure whether this is relevant but I just wanted to add that.
 
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So can somebody explain the conclusions here so far please?
 
Not sure. All this still needs more evaluation.
 
So can somebody explain the conclusions here so far please?
It's quite obvious we should remove this High 1-B part. OP mentioned its reason. Creation stay at 2-A and Heaven is Low 1-C.
Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C. Creation in DeMatteis' Cosmology is infinite-layered and each planes are higher dimensions as seen with Indra's Fourth Heaven, making the totality of creation a High 1-B structure.
Also DP's possibly High 1-C key. That's all I think.
Tiering: The Divine Presence is 1-C, possibly High 1-C as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya completely and are merely part of its dream.
 
I agree to remove High 1-B from the totality of Creation. However, Creation isn't 2-A, Heaven, and all other “limitless” plane of existence exist in the Sea of Love which is all of Creation throughout the countless age of men.

Creation is Low 1-C. Pralaya 1-C. Divine Presence 1-C.
 
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I think it should go something like this:

Since there are limitless planes of Existence we will cover the most grounded parts. For the ones we already have we should keep the same logic.

Material Plane:
There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. All multiversal feats are 2-A.

Metaphysical Realm:
The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

Creation:
Creation in DeMatteis' Cosmology is infinite-layered and each planes are higher dimensions as seen with Indra's Fourth Heaven, making the totality of creation a Low 1-C structure.

Pralaya:
Mahapralaya/Pralaya is the Void of infinite nothingness that predate Creation and is the source from which all things emerged and will return, making her 1-C.
Of course with Pralaya, I suggest two keys one for the avatar being Low 1-C and her True Form being 1-C.

Divine Presence:
The Divine Presence is 1-C as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya completely and are merely part of its dream.
 
Creation in DeMatteis' Cosmology is infinite-layered and each planes are higher dimensions as seen with Indra's Fourth Heaven, making the totality of creation a Low 1-C structure.
I already debunked the idea that Creation is infinite-layered.
 
I was so confused as to where you “debunked” it that I had to recheck and you didn't “debunk” anything.

Creation is still infinitely layered. It just doesn't have R>F in between each layer but that doesn't make it not “infinite.”
As I already said:
  1. There are as many realms in Heaven as there are souls in Creation.[108] (This scan is clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm)
  2. There are different planes of Heaven.[106] (This scan only states that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely here to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority)
In a nutshell, those realms exist parallel to each other, not as layers in a hierarchy.
 
As I already said:
  1. There are as many realms in Heaven as there are souls in Creation.[108] (This scan is clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm)
  2. There are different planes of Heaven.[106] (This scan only states that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely here to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority)
In a nutshell, those realms exist parallel to each other, not as layers in a hierarchy.
None of what you said and I have already read that suggests that. There is a clear hierarchy between these planes of existence that stretches from the first action and began the dreams where the souls start their journey.

This is why it's referenced as limitless planes of Existence and in that part has infinite parallel dimensions but it does not contradict a hierarchy of dreams that stretches infinitely as you get closer to Oneness. Each dream you go through Creation, not each dream of Heaven where a soul creates their version of paradise.

I don't see where it contradicted. You just went on about Heaven as if it were the only “dream” part where the hierarchy is referenced.
 
None of what you said and I have already read that suggests that. There is a clear hierarchy between these planes of existence that stretches from the first action and began the dreams where the souls start their journey.

This is why it's referenced as limitless planes of Existence and in that part has infinite parallel dimensions but it does not contradict a hierarchy of dreams that stretches infinitely as you get closer to Oneness. Each dream you go through Creation, not each dream of Heaven where a soul creates their version of paradise.

I don't see where it contradicted. You just went on about Heaven as if it were the only “dream” part where the hierarchy is referenced.
If you want to convince me of this, you'll have to provide a detailed explanation with specific scans for every step.
 
I believe that the scans being mentioned are where we take it based on different interpretations. That isn't a need for me to prove it to you when the scans say it themselves.
Then I'm sorry to say that the scans in question simply don't support what you're saying, as I explained above, and if you want to convince me otherwise, you'll have to tell me, citing the exact words of the scans, why your interpretation works.
 
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