DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision

[Elizio33]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Crisis Cosmology​

Dimensionality of the Orrery:

It has been repeatedly shown that the DC Multiverse is not limited to five dimensions, but actually has eleven dimensions based on M-Theory and Brane Cosmology (ten dimensions plus one temporal). The 2016's Hellblazer story suggested infinite planes and possibilities, including the Elemental Realms, which are serviced by eleven-dimensional invisible membranes of space and time. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?​

Orrery of Worlds:

Before:

Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Orrery and the Bleed are Low 1-C given the fifth-dimensional level contained within.

After:

Orrery of Worlds - High 1-C: The multiversal superstructure of fifty-two brane universes with eleven dimensions based on M-Theory and Brane Cosmology of which four dimensions constitute any single universe within the 11-D "Bulk" or "Bleed". It's possible that the Orrery of Worlds is not limited to eleven dimensions and that there may be higher dimensions, but since their locations in the cosmology have not been decided, it is difficult to locate them correctly.

Sphere of the Gods & Collective Unconscious:

Before:

Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C given their qualitative superiority over the Orrery of Worlds, adhering to two infinities above Low 2-C.

After:

Sphere of the Gods - 1-B: The magical sphere surrounding the Orrery of Worlds inhabited by gods, demigods, angels, demons or any magical being worshiped by mortals. It is located outside the Orrery's superluminal barrier, where matter is converted into pure information and thus outside of corporeal reality, having archetypal, platonic, and higher vibratory worlds than those of the Orrery of Worlds. It has close ties to beliefs which shaped every realm or entity in the Sphere of the Gods through the Collective Unconscious, and is one of the Connective Energy born of The Source. At the crest of the Sphere of the Gods is the Collective Unconscious, which manifests divinity through belief and is inhabited by Hecate. It is also one of the Connective Energy.

Comic Book Limbo:

Before:

Comic Book Limbo is Low 1-C, it hasn't showed any signs of qualitative superiority over the Sphere of the Gods despite being positioned higher on the map of the multiverse.

After:

Comic Book Limbo - 1-B: The last outpost of existence proper before reaching the Monitor Sphere and is the dumping ground for all the forgotten of the Orrery of Worlds. Despite being positioned higher on the Map of the Multiverse, Comic Book Limbo has shown no signs of quantitative superiority over the Sphere of the Gods.

Monitor Sphere:

Before:

The Monitor Sphere is straight 1-C due to its qualitative superiority over Comic Book Limbo, adhering to three infinities above Low 2-C.
The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are 1-C due to its all-encompassing nature which includes the Monitor Sphere.

After:

Monitor Sphere - 1-B: The archetypal Monitor World inhabited by the Monitors of Nil, a primal and fundamental world where space, time, scale are more profound and meaningful. It exists at the edge of things, on a higher plane of existence than Comic Book Limbo, and when Mandrakk fell from there, he fell into the Overvoid and landed in the Dark Multiverse. From there, Mar Novu peered beyond the void, into the Greater Omniverse, to observe the neighboring Multiverses.

Dark Multiverse:

Before:

The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are 1-C due to its all-encompassing nature which includes the Monitor Sphere.

After:

Dark Multiverse - 1-B: The sea of the unconscious upon which floats the Multiverse, located beneath Creation, and containing infinite universes based on the hopes and fears of all living beings in the Orrery of Worlds above. At the center of the Dark Multiverse lies the Forge of Worlds, a place of pure possibility and dark matter, where universes are forged and returned. On the border surrounding the Dark Multiverse is the Otherworld inhabited by the Otherkinds and the Upside-Down Man. It is the dark yet much larger equivalent of the Sphere of the Gods.

Divine Continuum/Totality of Creation:

Before:

The Totality of Creation/Divine Continuum is High 1-C for having the Dark Multiverse and Hypertime which is a three-dimensional time dimension, adhering to six infinities above Low 2-C.

After:

Divine Continuum - 1-B: The hypothetical model of Existence which is represented by all space and time. (i.e. Omniverse and Hypertime) The Space aspect of the Divine Continuum (Omniverse) is divided by the Orrery of Worlds (and infinite Multiverses), Metaverse (Earth Prime), Sphere of the Gods, Dark Multiverse. The Time aspect of the Divine Continuum (Hypertime) is divided into Limbo and Vanishing Point. It is very likely that higher layers of existence from the SpectraVerse are contained within it, though some layers are outside of Creation.

Fifth Dimension:

Before:

The Fifth Dimension is High 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum, adhering to a higher degree of said tier, but it has not been proven to be qualitatively superior to Hypertime.

After:

Fifth Dimension - 1-B: The "energy" that flows between realms is Imagination and is inhabited by imaginary-thought constructs which are considered as "imaginary friends" or "guardian angels". It exists everywhere at once, outside of Time and Hypertime. It has no specific place in the cosmology.

Sixth Dimension:

Before:

The Sixth Dimension is High 1-C for existing at the top of Divine Continuum and being the highest plane of existence, adhering to seven infinities above Low 2-C.

After:

Sixth Dimension - 1-B: The highest plane of existence and the final realm, between the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall within the model of the DC Comics Cosmology. It is a realm of the impossible for things beyond the imagination of most living beings and is outside of time and understanding, in which lower beings could not experience without higher intervention. It distinct itself from the Monitor Sphere in that, although the Monitor Sphere exists at the edge of things, the Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence where the Multiverse was designed and set to motion by Perpetua.

Now, let's talk about the Greater Omniverse and the Big Three.
The new Flash series provided new insights into DC Comics Cosmology, introducing N-dimensional structures and a cosmological chart of dimensions based on Wally West's interference patterns as he folded through dimensions called "SpectraVerse" having either ten, eleven, or twenty-six discrete frequencies. These are essentially layers of existence and the SpectraVerse is a dimensional vibration to access different layers. The same story also featured an unknown conceptual place within the Speed Force called the "Garden of Shadows" or "Gallery of Moments", beyond the Source Wall, beneath everything, deeper than space and time and where though and expression are one.

This alone should qualify for a possible 1-A tier because this place is deeper than the concept of space and time, and everything is more profound there and generates a relationship to R>F as Wally West interacted through the comic book panel in a place far beyond and below time and space.

The Greater Omniverse was referred to as "Infinite" in this story and should scale to this since the Speed Force is part of The Source, and The Source gave rise to, encompasses and sustains all contents of the Greater Omniverse. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Light of Creation should also scale to it for sharing an equal nature and stature to The Source and being the canvas of Creation outside space and time.

How would they be affected?​

 Greater Omniverse:

Before:

Beings from the Unseen Council are High 1-C for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, equal to Perpetua at her full might individually.

After:

Greater Omniverse/Infinite - 1-A: Outside the Source Wall lies the "Infinite" or "Greater Omniverse" located within the Overvoid outside and beyond Creation, having conceptual places beyond space and time and where thought and expression are one. It is where infinite Multiverses are created and judged by The Hands, and where the Deep Change operates, the Speed Force being an enmanation of the Deep Change and one of the Connective Energy born of The Source, which itself contains the Gallery of Moments/Garden of Shadows.

Unseen Council/Hands:

Before:

Beings from the Unseen Council are High 1-C for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, equal to Perpetua at her full might individually.

After:

Unseen Council - Low 1-A: The hierarchy of unseen beings that eventually reach The Source. They reside outside the Source Wall, in the Overvoid where they oversee the infinite Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse under oath to The Source. Although they are positioned far higher in the hierarchy than any god within the Sphere of the Gods or the Monitor Sphere and have quantitative superiority over the Multiverse, they are not ontologically superior to it.

Source/Overvoid/Light:

Before:

The Source, Overvoid, and Light of Creation are 1-B for completely transcending the Divine Continuum and, by extension, all space and time.

After:

Source/Overvoid/Light - 1-A: The three primordial aspects of The Presence that gave rise to, encompasses and sustains everything in the Greater Omniverse. The Source is the great energy of creation associated with Life and Creation from which any of the Connective Energy, which includes the Speed Force, were born and used by The Hands to shape Multiversal Systems within the Void. The Overvoid/Light of Creation, sometimes associated with Heaven, Angels and Creation, is the conscious living void and canvas of Creation outside of time and space and between the Multiverse and the Great Darkness.

Great Darkness/Primordial Darkness:

Before:

The Great Darkness is 1-B for preceding, encompassing, and surpassing The Source, Overvoid, and Light of Creation.

After:

Great Darkness/Primordial Darkness - 1-A: The Primordial Darkness preceding life, death, matter and magic and of which nothing and everything were the same thing. The Source and The Light of Creation were born of the Primordial Darkness which encompasses all.

Creator/Presence/God:

Before:

The Creator is 1-B for surpassing the Primordial Darkness in power, and for being as transcendent to the Divine Continuum as The Source, Overvoid, and Light of Creation are.

After:

Creator/Presence/God - 1-A: The non-dual and immutable God who breathed everything into existence, standing utterly beyond the war of Light and Darkness, and all opposites, and is in a place where there is no time or space, being synonymous with the Void. It manifest itself in three distinct yet equal figures: Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Light of Creation. The Voice who created The Word when he first spoken, commanding The Light through it, is an aspect of God.

Thank you!

Agree: @VeryGoofyToddler @Antvasima @ProfectusInfinity @Firestorm808 @AerrowStorm1

Disagree:

Neutral: @Accelerated_Evolution

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @IdiosyncraticLawyer @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizhaa

Thoughts ?

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me at least.

@Emirp sumitpo @Firestorm808 @Ultima_Reality

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Agree

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I have some concerns about this:

1. The higher-dimensional scans are from a Wildstorm series called Planetary. How canonical are they?
2. The additional seven dimensions being "folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments" seems to indicate that their size is insignificant and thus not qualified for higher tiers.
3. The reasoning for the god-tiers being 1-A seems poorly elaborated for qualitative superiority.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I think everything looks alright except for this:

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

Nothing in the 2nd scan seems like good justification for 1-A, you seem to have added "all" to "space and time". I don't even think there's anything here for even Low 1-A, rather, upscaling higher into 1-B.

 

[Eseseso]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

This is fine

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

Seems ok?

More to come!

Yay

 

[Deagonx]

The higher-dimensional scans are from a Wildstorm series called Planetary. How canonical are they?

Wildstorm was an independent comic label that was later absorbed by DC. Elements of Wildstorm were introduced into DC at large, but I would be wary of accepting anything cosmology related from a Wildstorm story.

The additional seven dimensions being "folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments" seems to indicate that their size is insignificant and thus not qualified for higher tiers.

I agree, but I also think the language used to describe them has other problems as well:

"Nevertheless, any dimensional traveller with sufficient skill and power can visit them. Since they are outside the boundaries of normal space in any relatively normal universe, these seven dimensions are static and empty realms useful only as places to rest or undergo repairs."​

That makes them sound more like locations unto themselves. It doesn't really make sense to visit a single spatial dimension "to rest or undergo repairs."

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don’t see any Q>F to suggest realms outside Creation are ontologically superior to the Multiverse. So the basis of beyond time and space needs more context. Though, like I said this would be easily resolved if we just include Flash Story to which the Shadow of Garden/Gallery of Moment is flat-out 1-A. So, that would give the Source, Overvoid, and Light one layer and the Presence two layer.

Though, the Presence should flat-out be 1-A. The other from just that dial hero scan is Low 1-A. That again is easily fix with the Flash story.

I know that Outsider(2023) can work but I don’t really know if the Authority guidebook is useable due to the incoherent language. However, I’ll support it, it just needs to be explained very carefully.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree, but I also think the language used to describe them has other problems as well:

"Nevertheless, any dimensional traveller with sufficient skill and power can visit them. Since they are outside the boundaries of normal space in any relatively normal universe, these seven dimensions are static and empty realms useful only as places to rest or undergo repairs."​

That makes them sound more like locations unto themselves. It doesn't really make sense to visit a single spatial dimension "to rest or undergo repairs."

It does say space-time(3 spatial + 1 time) exists as in normal space at the boundary of the Universe. As oppose to the rest existing beyond there, but due to them being so compact and tight would be hard to gauge doesn’t really denote anything. That’s literally how it’s defined in M-Theory “Supergravity” that they’re so tiny and clumped together very tightly.

The final sentence is a bit weird, but given the Authority adheres to M-Theory, it’s still works. The last part just seems to be there own twist since it’s still a fictional Universe with fictional interpretations of theorem in real life.

 

[Deagonx]

As oppose to the rest existing beyond there, but due to them being so compact and tight would be hard to gauge doesn’t really denote anything. That’s literally how it’s defined in M-Theory “Supergravity” that they’re so tiny and clumped together very tightly.

I understand, I'm just saying that later sentence about them being realms is problematic.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

DC should definitely move up to at least 1-A characters again

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I understand, I'm just saying that later sentence about them being realms is problematic.

Yeah, but there’s always going to be problem. I believe with sufficient explanation on that regard, we can look past it.

I mean Morrison did take some element from the Authority story so there’s that(he also wrote some). That guy really likes the super small string theory. So I do believe it’s somewhat compatible, the guidebook just seems weird since they’re meant to be taken sometime with a grain of salt. I, fully, do believe that the Cosmology of DC does have 11-D. It’s been mentioned quite a few times by now.

 

[Eseseso]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

Btw, will this bump up the dimensions above the Sphere of Gods?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

The several extra-dimensions are described as compactified and monumentally small, so they don't meet the standards for quantitatively superior dimensions.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

Gotta disagree with this too. The scans just say "time and space" and not "all," and I don't think they really describe a state of existence beyond all possible dimensional spaces or the very archetype of dimensionality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The several extra-dimensions are described as compactified and monumentally small, so they don't meet the standards for quantitatively superior dimensions.

This isn’t genuinely true since they’re not even on the same level of existence. Space-Time or 4D are physics based dimension that compose the Universe. The extra 7 hyper dimension are in hyperspace due to the conception with M-Theory and as the guidebook states “true time-space” and beyond the default notion of 4D. They’re described as small because they’re not accessible by any means to technology just yet with the scan describing it would take the best to get to them.

The notion of size isn’t that detracts quantitatively superiority. Its work the same way as those dimensions are above the first four, due to their nature, they’re incredible small, yet they’re still higher dimensions as seen.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

First of all, it does not say that it is beyond space and time. It says that it is outside of space and time. There is a big difference between them, it should be reminded. The most probable issue is that overvoid is Low 1-A, but there is nothing 1-A here, so I do not agree with 1-A. It is neutral for Low 1-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

Me too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Are we allowed to help the OP to get some confirmation on the ratings?

 

[Floxiaaa]

Are we allowed to help the OP to get some confirmation on the ratings?

I don't understand

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

Me too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't understand

Well, 1-A seems very shaky right now. However, I can suggest that we use the Gallery of Moments also called the Garden of Shadow as 1-A. Ultima and I discussed this a while back but it seems 1-A. A place in the Speedforce that's beneath everything(also beyond the Source Wall) deeper than the concept of time and space as things of the mind here as just pure abstractions. Given that Wally literally can affect speech bubbles and dialogue suggests that its existence can affect all things.

Now, Metal considers the Speed Force as one of its connective energies. In the more recent comics, it was a gift from the species called the Arc Angles who suggest a race of highly powerful beings that emanated Reality and all its level. Wally with the Speedforce managed to affect all levels of Reality. So Speedforce for 1-A with the Presence scaling to it since we've accepted the Presence as the Creator exists beyond duality, and everything in Existence came simply by it breathing it all.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Well, 1-A seems very shaky right now. However, I can suggest that we use the Gallery of Moments also called the Garden of Shadow as 1-A. Ultima and I discussed this a while back but it seems 1-A. A place in the Speedforce that's beneath everything(also beyond the Source Wall) deeper than the concept of time and space as things of the mind here as just pure abstractions. Given that Wally literally can affect speech bubbles and dialogue suggests that its existence can affect all things.

Now, Metal considers the Speed Force as one of its connective energies. In the more recent comics, it was a gift from the species called the Arc Angles who suggest a race of highly powerful beings that emanated Reality and all its level. Wally with the Speedforce managed to affect all levels of Reality. So Speedforce for 1-A with the Presence scaling to it since we've accepted the Presence as the Creator exists beyond duality, and everything in Existence came simply by it breathing it all.

So yes, this is possible, but for this crt, my definitive answer to 1-A is no.

 

[Antvasima]

Based on the above comments, what do you think should be adjusted in your suggested revisions here, @Elizio33 ?

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Maybe "Possibly" or "Likely" ratings could be used? For example, "1-C, possibly High 1-C", and those who are 1-B would be "1-B, possibly higher". Of course, statistics values should be added to the AP section, so the dimensionality is clearer. Mostly proposing this since it seems there are some contentions around if even the dimensions qualify for quantitative differences.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Mostly agree with Profectus and Deagon.

Also, I really don't see how the two scans provided prove 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

Are we allowed to help the OP to get some confirmation on the ratings?

Yes.

 

[Elizio33]

Based on the above comments, what do you think should be adjusted in your suggested revisions here, @Elizio33 ?

VeryGoofyToddler shared really relevant scans from the ongoing Flash series. We should use this.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

Agreed. DC cosmology needs to be put back to outer. I may make a future CRT on this.

 

[Elizio33]

It is true that the scans used here poorly justify a 1-A or even a Low 1-A tier, but contextually, the Overvoid has always been used to be beyond any spatial and temporal dimension, and even after being retconned as "The Light". The only things that truly changed after the retcon is that the Overvoid is no longer synonymous with God but rather an aspect of him. All information about the Overvoid being the non-dual void of immaculate perfection beyond thought can still be used. The scans from The Flash series would reinforce the 1-A tier.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

It is true that the scans used here poorly justify a 1-A or even a Low 1-A tier, but contextually, the Overvoid has always been used to be beyond any spatial and temporal dimension, and even after being retconned as "The Light". The only things that truly changed after the retcon is that the Overvoid is no longer synonymous with God but rather an aspect of him. All information about the Overvoid being the non-dual void of immaculate perfection beyond thought can still be used. The scans from The Flash series would reinforce the 1-A tier.

Then, IMO, its better to handle it in a separate CRT rather than just dropping new scans here. Maybe finish up the dimensional discussion in this one and leave qualitative upgrades for future CRTs, no matter how blatant may be.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Then, IMO, its better to handle it in a separate CRT rather than just dropping new scans here. Maybe finish up the dimensional discussion in this one and leave qualitative upgrades for future CRTs, no matter how blatant may be.

This thread isn’t old and not very long. So it works fine.

 

[Antvasima]

This thread isn’t old and not very long. So it works fine.

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Nami_Kami]

It is true that the scans used here poorly justify a 1-A or even a Low 1-A tier, but contextually, the Overvoid has always been used to be beyond any spatial and temporal dimension, and even after being retconned as "The Light". The only things that truly changed after the retcon is that the Overvoid is no longer synonymous with God but rather an aspect of him. All information about the Overvoid being the non-dual void of immaculate perfection beyond thought can still be used. The scans from The Flash series would reinforce the 1-A tier.

I have scans that justify 1-A. I can provide you with them. I also have more 1-B scans.

 

[Elizio33]

Then, IMO, its better to handle it in a separate CRT rather than just dropping new scans here. Maybe finish up the dimensional discussion in this one and leave qualitative upgrades for future CRTs, no matter how blatant may be.

While I understand your point, I personally think that creating multiple threads to upgrade Crisis Cosmology is not better and this one is still new unless it reaches more than five pages, I don't see why we shouldn't discuss the Overvoid's tier here.

 

[Elizio33]

I have scans that justify 1-A. I can provide you with them. I also have more 1-B scans.

Sure.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Sure.

Do you want me to send them here or elsewhere?

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

This thread isn’t old and not very long. So it works fine.

Eh, still think it's better to discuss them separately since one is quantitative and other is qualitative upgrades. Not to mention, if the thread does continue then it should be closed and put on waiting list for 1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Eh, still think it's better to discuss them separately since one is quantitative and other is qualitative upgrades. Not to mention, if the thread does continue then it should be closed and put on waiting list for 1-A.

Well, that's up to Ultima to decide. Since he hasn't closed this thread, it can live as long as we want.