DC Cosmology: Crisis Cosmology - Part 1

[Deagonx]

She never stood a chance, she was bidding to do something rather than go down with a fight and then nothing. It's the same logic as Lucifer rebelling against someone who's unbelievably more powerful than him, but he tried either way despite the result not favoring him. Perpetua alone by herself was nothing and had to resort to making an army as being conduit of Crisis Energy to potentially stand a chance. Yet, they sent the Raptor that easily pinned her, her powers, and her entire army without too much of an issue.

Unlike, her, her siblings aren't known to be wrathful or considered a rebel who betrayed the source of their power. She's feared because she doesn't follow the rules like the others and even then the story depicts her brethren as her superior to the point even Alpheus had to be careful to not inquire about the Judges about the creation of his Multiverse.

Your argument is that she was the "most feared" of her siblings due to her wrath despite the fact that -- by your theory -- every single one of her siblings inexplicably dwarfs her in power to an infinite degree, and that Perpetua's entire goal was pointless and she never stood a chance.

Sorry, but frankly I think that's really irrational and that you're just trying to cling to the idea that the hands should get an extra QS layer above the Sixth Dimension, and you're dispensing with reasonability in order to do so. I don't consider this persuasive at all and I'd rather not spend any more time discussing it.

That's the point. You dwelled so much on the nuances of something that you forget sometimes we go by general belief or at least what the comic would atone to rather than flat-out admit they weren't “QS” over the Hands.

Also, you claim the evidence was weak. I was proposing that isn't really relevant. So I'm well aware of your claim that you do agree they are QS over the Hands.

If your argument is "we don't need evidence because we can just vibe check that the Presence has QS over the Hands" I'd say that's really ridiculous and I'd ask that you stop arguing with me so that I can have a reasonable discussion with Elizio instead of cluttering up the thread with arguments that have no chance of succeeding here.

But honestly you've convinced me to remove the additional layer from my scaling. I don't want to hand out a QS layer with no evidence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Your argument is that she was the "most feared" of her siblings due to her wrath despite the fact that -- by your theory -- every single one of her siblings inexplicably dwarfs her in power to an infinite degree, and that Perpetua's entire goal was pointless and she never stood a chance.

In essence, yes. She had to try to at least take a stand. It's that simple.

Sorry, but frankly I think that's really irrational and that you're just trying to cling to the idea that the hands should get an extra QS layer above the Sixth Dimension, and you're dispensing with reasonability in order to do so. I don't consider this persuasive at all and I'd rather not spend any more time discussing it.

That's on you but quite frankly, I don't see why you don't see it this way. Especially since we're scaling the 6th Dimension to the Hands, not really Perpetua since we don't know when the 6th Dimension was created. You also claim it has no “QS” over the 5th which at the very least Perpetua is well above, so her superiors that go in a hierarchy should as well since the entirety of the Multiverse which contains the 6th Dimension are dwarfed by the Judges.

If your argument is "we don't need evidence because we can just vibe check that the Presence has QS over the Hands" I'd say that's really ridiculous and I'd ask that you stop responding to me so that I can have a reasonable discussion with Elizio instead of whatever this is.

You agree that he does have it. The evidence being weak isn't necessary, to supplement it. Common sense as I said was one reason, it's not the main reason. Also, I don't know why you're doing this with a nasty tone as a Mod, you should just have a normal conversation. If you find what I say unreasonable then I'll stop because you asked but adding all that is not cool.

 

[Robo432343]

deagon man we have already gotten like 5 staff approval for this, that's why the changes were applied.
this thread should literally be closed
we have moved on to this thread

Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters

This thread is very simple, nothing too complicated or too long. Since the Crisis Cosmology thread was accepted and applied to the DC Cosmology blog, the time has come to scale the characters from the Crisis Cosmology. Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be: Nabu...

vsbattles.com

 

[Deagonx]

I'm aware Robo, but this seems like the most natural place for me to discuss it with Elizio. If it's a bother to you, you can unwatch the thread.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We're just putting our opinions on the tiering. If you want to ask Elizio just straight up either PM him or perhaps make it illicitly clear you'll address it to no one but him.

 

[Deagonx]

Everyone is welcome to provide their opinions, I just have no interest in going back and forth with the argument that Perpetua is infinitesimally weaker than every other member of her race, because it is plainly nonsense. It's just going to clutter the thread to go in circles about it.

 

[Elizio33]

There are some elements of this I would like to change, now that I have the time to look over it more thoroughly.


I would generally disagree with the notion that the Sphere has QS to the Orrery, given how routinely denizens of the Sphere and denizens of the Orrery demonstrated the ability to go freely back and forth and fight each other. I agree that the Sphere is higher in some capacity, but I do not believe it is infinitely so.


I generally agree that the Monitor Sphere has QS over limbo, but I don't think Limbo is Low 1-C. When it is shown in Nil it's actually even smaller than a universe relative to the Thought Robot, so I would only place the Monitor Sphere a single level of QS above the Orrery.


The Other Place is explicitly the opposite of the Sphere of the Gods. It should be on the same tier as the Sphere.



Per our rules on author statements, we can't scale things based on what authors have said if it hasn't been shown in the comics. I don't believe plane time or cube time have ever been officially connected to Hypertime and those concepts seems to only be referenced in that single comic. In practice Hypertime is just treated as a collection of infinite timelines, and I believe that is how we should scale it.


The Sixth Dimension should not be treated as having QS to the Fifth Dimension, because Mxy was able to give Superman enough energy to allow him to reach the Sixth Dimension once the Source Wall was down.

The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.


I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite. Though I don't feel too strongly about this that I'd make a big fuss of it.

With that said, I would rework the final segment to look like this:

1. This is explained on the blog, without specific methods such as boom tubes or magical portals, the Sphere of the Gods can only be accessed by mortals by transcending physicality, using the power of widespread belief to ascend into the Sphere of the Gods as true residents.

2. Well, Grant's idea was that each plane of the multiverse map was higher than one another, like a sort of "map of buddhist map", as he said. But the buddhist map part is irrelevant, it was just to explain Grant's idea with the map of the multiverse. Although Comic Book Limbo does not have no OS over the Sphere of the Gods, it is still a higher plane than the Godsphere.

3. I understand your point, but the Dark Multiverse itself is meant to be the "dark opposite" or "shadow" of the Light Multiverse, but it is not 2-C just because its opposite Multiverse is. The Dark Multiverse is so large that the entire contents of the multiverse map float on it. The same goes for the Other Place as it surrounds the Dark Multiverse despite being the dark opposite of the Sphere of the Gods.

4. Line Time, Plane Time and Cube Time were mentioned in Bruce Wayne Returns as the "map of space-time" and Cube Time is said to be where higher dimensional beings see the inhabitants of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective: flat. Grant Morrison explained that line times (linear timelines), plane time (a two-dimensional plane containing all linear timelines), and cube time (the perpendicular of the temporal plane where beings perceive everything below from a higher dimensional perspective) were part of Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept. Grant was simply explaining the nature of Hypertime and explained concepts already mentioned in the comics. Thus, Hypertime is a "three-dimensional" time dimension.

5. I would agree with that, but the Source Wall was broken and Mxy admitted that the destruction of the Source Wall was the reason he could create a portal to the Sixth Dimension using a huge portion of his energies. Since the destruction of the Source Wall, everything was disturbed on the multiverse.

6. Snyder explained that after the creation of a baby multiverse, beings like Perpetua are meant to die and return to the Source where they would ascend to become even higher beings of the Unseen Council.

7. Seeing the ranking that you propose, you seem to consider that they have QS over the Hands and the Unseen Council.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Everyone is welcome to provide their opinions, I just have no interest in going back and forth with the argument that Perpetua is infinitesimally weaker than every other member of her race, because it is plainly nonsense. It's just going to clutter the thread to go in circles about it.

1. “Nonsense” is subjective.
2. The thread would go in a circle which I've seen to see. However, you could just ask nicely we move on. I had no problem with it. If I couldn't change your mind, which I couldn't, we would just have to move on.

The tone and remark were something I did not expect especially for someone like you.

Anyway, back on topic, perhaps we can lower it now that I decided to reread but I still do think the higher part can stay the same. That's my two cents on it.

 

[Elizio33]

Everyone is welcome to provide their opinions, I just have no interest in going back and forth with the argument that Perpetua is infinitesimally weaker than every other member of her race, because it is plainly nonsense. It's just going to clutter the thread to go in circles about it.

Indeed, everyone's opinion is welcome for contributions.

 

[Deagonx]

1. This is explained on the blog, without specific methods such as boom tubes or magical portals, the Sphere of the Gods can only be accessed by mortals by transcending physicality, using the power of widespread belief to ascend into the Sphere of the Gods as true residents.

Right, but these magic portals and boom tubes exist, which is the issue. Unless we posit that every single method of reaching the Sphere confers an infinite increase in power, and that travel to the Orrery confers an infinite decrease in power, we're left to believe that the Gods are not infinitely stronger. I just don't think that interpretation is entirely tenable.

2. Well, Grant's idea was that each plane of the multiverse map was higher than one another, like a sort of "map of buddhist map", as he said. But the buddhist map part is irrelevant, it was just to explain Grant's idea with the map of the multiverse. Although Comic Book Limbo does not have no OS over the Sphere of the Gods, it is still a higher plane than the Godsphere.

I don't think we can confidently say that Limbo is a greater cosmological structure than the Sphere just because of where it is located on the map. The portrayal in Superman Beyond suggests Limbo is not greater than even a single universe. I wouldn't place the Monitor Sphere as having QS to the Sphere just because it has QS to Limbo.

3. I understand your point, but the Dark Multiverse itself is meant to be the "dark opposite" or "shadow" of the Light Multiverse, but it is not 2-C just because its opposite Multiverse is. The Dark Multiverse is so large that the entire contents of the multiverse map float on it. The same goes for the Other Place as it surrounds the Dark Multiverse despite being the dark opposite of the Sphere of the Gods.

The Dark Multiverse has more universes (as the Orrery only has 52 during that storyline) but that doesn't make the Other Place bigger. The Other Place doesn't really "surround" the dark multiverse, it doesn't have actual spatial positioning relative to the Dark Multiverse. Given that it is explicitly the dark half of the Sphere, I don't see how it could have qualitative superiority over the Sphere.

This is especially problematic because Upside Down Man is explicitly Hecate's equal in power, and Hecate represents the CU and UDM represents the Other Place.

4. Line Time, Plane Time and Cube Time were mentioned in Bruce Wayne Returns and Cube Time is said to be where higher dimensional beings see the inhabitants of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective: flat. Grant Morrison explained that line times (linear timelines), plane time (a two-dimensional plane containing all linear timelines), and cube time (the perpendicular of the temporal plane where beings perceive everything below from a higher dimensional perspective) were part of Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept. Grant was simply explaining the nature of Hypertime and explained concepts already mentioned in the comics. Thus, Hypertime is a "three-dimensional" time dimension.

Right, but that's just from his interview statements and not the comics. We aren't able to add things to Hypertime just because they're mentioned in interviews. We are limited to what is stated in the comics.

The concepts being mentioned in the comics doesn't mean that the authors interpretation expressed in an interview is canon, if the concept is not being used that way in the comics itself.

6. Snyder explained that after the creation of a baby multiverse, beings like Perpetua are meant to die and return to the Source where they would ascend to become even higher beings of the Unseen Council.

Where was this? I don't know that we could include this, since it would just be an author statement. I don't think the phrase "Unseen Council" is even in the comics.

 

[Elizio33]

Right, but these magic portals and boom tubes exist, which is the issue. Unless we posit that every single method of reaching the Sphere confers an infinite increase in power, and that travel to the Orrery confers an infinite decrease in power, we're left to believe that the Gods are not infinitely stronger. I just don't think that interpretation is entirely tenable.


I don't think we can confidently say that Limbo is a greater cosmological structure than the Sphere just because of where it is located on the map. The portrayal in Superman Beyond suggests Limbo is not greater than even a single universe. I wouldn't place the Monitor Sphere as having QS to the Sphere just because it has QS to Limbo.


The Dark Multiverse has more universes (as the Orrery only has 52 during that storyline) but that doesn't make the Other Place bigger. The Other Place doesn't really "surround" the dark multiverse, it doesn't have actual spatial positioning relative to the Dark Multiverse. Given that it is explicitly the dark half of the Sphere, I don't see how it could have qualitative superiority over the Sphere.

This is especially problematic because Upside Down Man is explicitly Hecate's equal in power, and Hecate represents the CU and UDM represents the Other Place.


Right, but that's just from his interview statements and not the comics. We aren't able to add things to Hypertime just because they're mentioned in interviews. We are limited to what is stated in the comics.

The concepts being mentioned in the comics doesn't mean that the authors interpretation expressed in an interview is canon, if the concept is not being used that way in the comics itself.


Where was this? I don't know that we could include this, since it would just be an author statement. I don't think the phrase "Unseen Council" is even in the comics.

1. Boom Tubes adjust the size and mass of anyone traveling inside so that even if they are traveling on a higher plane, their size and mass adapts. This idea should be universal for all cosmologies involving New Gods and Boom Tubes, just like how we treat the size of universes as universal for all cosmologies in our blog. Some New Gods in the Sphere of the Gods are as very large compared to the Orrery of Worlds. One example is how Darkseid's fall cast a giant shadow over the multiverse during Final Crisis.

This is not the case for everyone, however, so it is part of the reason why some denizens of the Sphere of the Gods do not scale to their realms. Anyway, New Gods were shown to transcend physicality as living ideas (ideas that mortals have shaped through the Collective Unconscious) and normal space and time as they don't perceive time on a linear way as we do and their presences deforms time and distorts human minds.

2. This would require additional inputs, but I have no doubt that Comic Book Limbo could be a higher plane than the Orrery and the fact that Comic Book Limbo appeared smaller than a universe during Superman Beyond is an inconsistent outlier. So I would prefer to keep this on hold for now.

3. The Other Place was directed stated to surround the Dark Multiverse by Doctor Fate, as he said; "The Great Darkness awakens in the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse. The eyes of the Otherkinds have turned upon reality." Even though the idea of the Great Darkness = Other Place have been retconned, the Other Place can still be interpreted to surround the Dark Multiverse. For the Upside-Down Man part, I explained that i was not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to higher tiers.

3. Well, I've always had this rule, as long as the author's statements do not go against what has been established in the comics or are not random or simply explain a concept mentioned in the comics without it being contradictory, then these words can be used. Line Time, Plane Time, and Cube Time were mentioned in a comics, saying that the map begins with the time point containing all possibilities. Line time was described similarly to a linear timeline or, if you prefer, Timestream. Plane time was described as an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating timelines. Cubic time has been described as the perpendicular to plane time from where we look flat, with things that live there having a scale, depth and dimensions that we can only begin to imagine. Morrison just explained that they are part of Hypertime, which makes sense since they have been described as time dimensions and Hypertime has always been implied to be the "pinnacle" of time. BTW, I mainly used the description given in the comic; The Return of Bruce Wayne.

4. You may be right about this.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree except for the Otherplace surrounding the Dark Multiverse would be more so that it's the like near the edge between the Light to the Dark. Since the Otherpkace is tied to the Darker Multiverse.

I will say Comicbook Limbo should be treated as a higher realm. It just appeared to look like that when compared to the Monitor Sphere. Things on the Map aren't meant to be drawn to scale. So I don't know where it appears smaller than a universe comes from.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree except for the Otherplace surrounding the Dark Multiverse would be more so that it's the like near the edge between the Light to the Dark. Since the Otherpkace is tied to the Darker Multiverse.

I will say Comicbook Limbo should be treated as a higher realm. It just appeared to look like that when compared to the Monitor Sphere. Things on the Map aren't meant to be drawn to scale. So I don't where it appears smaller than a universe comes from.

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean. Can you rephrase please.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean. Can you rephrase please.

1. Surrounding the Dark Multiverse could be indicative of location not that it encompasses the Dark Multiverse. So Otherplace shouldn't scale to the Dark Multiverse.

2. Limbo should be treated as a higher realm. There is no coherent sense in treating it as smaller than a universe just because it appeared to look like that in Nil.

 

[Elizio33]

1. Surrounding the Dark Multiverse could be indicative of location not that it encompasses the Dark Multiverse. So Otherplace shouldn't scale to the Dark Multiverse.

2. Limbo should be treated as a higher realm. There is no coherent sense in treating it as smaller than a universe just because it appeared to look like that in Nil.

1. I understand.

2.

 

[Elizio33]

I understand for the Other Place part, but something surrounding something else means to "extend on all sides simultaneously; circle" or envelop or enclose. Just saying.

 

[Deagonx]

1. Boom Tubes adjust the size and mass of anyone traveling inside so that even if they are traveling on a higher plane, their size and mass adapts.

This is true, but the size difference is not infinite, as demonstrated by Supergirl going to Apokolips without a boom tube and only being somewhat small relative to the New Gods (smaller than a foot, but still big enough for them to grasp with their hands).

2. This would require additional inputs, but I have no doubt that Comic Book Limbo could be a higher plane than the Orrery and the fact that Comic Book Limbo appeared smaller than a universe during Superman Beyond is an inconsistent outlier. So I would prefer to keep this on hold for now.

I don't see how it could be an outlier when it's essentially the only portrayal of Limbo from an outside perspective that occurs in the comics. The people within Limbo are just normal characters, there's no indication that it's infinitely large or higher dimensional.

3. The Other Place was directed stated to surround the Dark Multiverse by Doctor Fate, as he said; "The Great Darkness awakens in the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse. The eyes of the Otherkinds have turned upon reality." Even though the idea of the Great Darkness = Other Place have been retconned, the Other Place can still be interpreted to surround the Dark Multiverse. For the Upside-Down Man part, I explained that i was not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to higher tiers.

That's fine, I just consider it largely figurative. Even if it is literal it doesn't really change that the Otherplace is the opposite of the Sphere and isn't infinitely greater than it.

3. Well, I've always had this rule, as long as the author's statements do not go against what has been established in the comics or are not random or simply explain a concept mentioned in the comics without it being contradictory, then these words can be used. Line Time, Plane Time, and Cube Time were mentioned in a comics, saying that the map begins with the time point containing all possibilities. Line time was described similarly to a linear timeline or, if you prefer, Timestream. Plane time was described as an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating timelines. Cubic time has been described as the perpendicular to plane time from where we look flat, with things that live there having a scale, depth and dimensions that we can only begin to imagine. Morrison just explained that they are part of Hypertime, which makes sense since they have been described as time dimensions and Hypertime has always been implied to be the "pinnacle" of time. BTW, I mainly used the description given in the comic; The Return of Bruce Wayne.

Here is our rule:

• Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I understand for the Other Place part, but something surrounding something else means to "extend on all sides simultaneously; circle" or envelop or enclose. Just saying.

That would suggest the Otherplace is the same size at least as the Dark Multiverse which is hard to see.

 

[Elizio33]

This is true, but the size difference is not infinite, as demonstrated by Supergirl going to Apokolips without a boom tube and only being somewhat small relative to the New Gods (smaller than a foot, but still big enough for them to grasp with their hands).


I don't see how it could be an outlier when it's essentially the only portrayal of Limbo from an outside perspective that occurs in the comics. The people within Limbo are just normal characters, there's no indication that it's infinitely large or higher dimensional.


That's fine, I just consider it largely figurative. Even if it is literal it doesn't really change that the Otherplace is the opposite of the Sphere and isn't infinitely greater than it.


Here is our rule:

• Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

1. They might be exception or inconsistencies, but the New Gods like Darkseid were shown very large compared to the Orrery.

2. I would prefer to wait for additional inputs.

3.

4. I understand the wiki rules regarding author statements but I've mainly used the information given in the comics; The Return of Bruce Wayne and these concepts have been described as time dimensions, while Hypertime has always been implied to be the pinnacle of time, regardless of the story.

 

[Deagonx]

4. I understand the wiki rules regarding author statements but I've mainly used the information given in the comics; The Return of Bruce Wayne and these concepts have been described as time dimensions, while Hypertime has always been implied to be the pinnacle of time, regardless of the story.

Yes but even with Return of Bruce Wayne the way that these concepts are described isn't really compatible with our tiering system. If "line time" is just a timeline, and "plane time" is the description of infinite timelines, that doesn't make it an additional temporal dimension. Lots of verses have infinite timelines.

 

[Elizio33]

Yes but even with Return of Bruce Wayne the way that these concepts are described isn't really compatible with our tiering system. If "line time" is just a timeline, and "plane time" is the description of infinite timelines, that doesn't make it an additional temporal dimension. Lots of verses have infinite timelines.

Plane Time is not just infinite timeline, it is a cosmic loom that contains timelines. This is why Morrison described plane time as a "two-dimensional" plane containing the timelines. These concepts were described to be part of the map of space time.

Here are the scans in question:

 

[Elizio33]

Regardless, the way line time, plane time, and cube time were described in the comics sounds like time dimensions and the fact that they were part of the space-time map coupled with the explanations of Morrison confirms the idea. Nothing is contradictory with the three-dimensional Hypertime in my opinion. I will keep this discussion on hold until further contributions are made.

@Antvasima @IdiosyncraticLawyer @DarkDragonMedeus
@Firestorm808

Any inputs would be appreciated

 

[Elizio33]

Funny how the second scan above mentioned hypercube time which wasn't mentioned at first in the comics, just a term Morrison used in an interview. In the interview, Morrison hinted that fifth-dimensional beings would live there, above qualitatively superior to cube time, which is similar to how Imps could move freely through time and Hypertime. But it couldn't be used because it's too vague, that's why I didn't mention hypercube time in the blog.

 

[Omnificence]

We still haven't revised the tiering for the Great Darkness on the wiki yet.

 

[Elizio33]

We still haven't revised the tiering for the Great Darkness on the wiki yet.

This thread propose a Tier for the Great Darkness (Crisis Cosmology)

Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters

This thread is very simple, nothing too complicated or too long. Since the Crisis Cosmology thread was accepted and applied to the DC Cosmology blog, the time has come to scale the characters from the Crisis Cosmology. Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be: Nabu...

vsbattles.com

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

From the scans themselves it does sound like temporal dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm sure that was the intention, I just dont think it was executed in a way that is terribly relevant to scaling. If "planetime" is just a loom of converging/diverging timelines it wouldn't be tiered as an additional temporal axis.

 

[Elizio33]

From the scans themselves it does sound like temporal dimensions.

I based the three time dimension levels mainly on these scans for the blog.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm sure that was the intention, I just dont think it was executed in a way that is terribly relevant to scaling. If "planetime" is just a loom of converging/diverging timelines it wouldn't be tiered as an additional temporal axis.

I was sketchy on that part. The description of line time and cube time, however, does seem to fit the niche at the bare minimum. It’s not totally horrible to include it and it does make sense, if we were to view it holistically(Crisis Cosmology).

 

[Elizio33]

I was sketchy on that part. The description of line time and cube time, however, does seem to fit the niche at the bare minimum. It’s not totally horrible to include it and it does make sense, if we were to view it holistically(Crisis Cosmology).

I agree. It does makes sense.

 

[Elizio33]

Anyway, @Deagonx i would like to talk about the Light of Creation and the Presence. From my understanding, the Presence, the Source and the Overvoid are aspects of the Light of Creation and I believe that the purpose of Light was to unite the three top gods into one coupled with evidence in the comics. BUT should we consider that God or the Presence beyond the Great Darkness which precedes the Light, so it would be; God/Presence > Great Darkness > Light of Creation? Or is the way we are handling it good? (which I personally think is the case, although i could be wrong and I'm open to suggestions...)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Anyway, @Deagonx i would like to talk about the Light of Creation and the Presence. From my understanding, the Presence, the Source and the Overvoid are aspects of the Light of Creation and I believe that the purpose of Light was to unite the three top gods into one coupled with evidence in the comics. BUT should we consider that God or the Presence beyond the Great Darkness which precedes the Light, so it would be; God/Presence > Great Darkness > Light of Creation? Or is the way we are handling it good? (which I personally think is the case, although i could be wrong and I'm open to suggestions...)

Wait…wait. Why would the Presence be lower than the Light of Creation? In what way does Light encompasses a being in almost every story, canon, and understanding who created the Light? Even without a direct mention of the Presence, where is coherent sense in that?

In most depiction of comics that goes hand to hand with religion. God was (as absolute) eternal. He was always concealed because during these time without Light, he was a state of non-dual shape. Light is predated by Darkness, not God/Presence nor preceded. Elizio use common sense! Where is this “evidence?”

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Even DC Fandom literally called the Source and the Light as aspect of the Presence. The story literally showed during the original Swamp Thing run that God is beyond both the duality of Light and Darkness. To the point that God watches from a place of no time(eternal) beyond anything in the Multiverse as his breath created all that was because of his quintessential importance.

I take Swamp Thing as a credible source since he also appeared in Dark Crisis. Unlike, Swamp Thing, Dark Crisis makes no mention of the Light Hand from Heaven being God nor did the original Swamp Thing. They refer it to as the Hand from Heaven. Kuuzo, a good scholar, has made such a good thread on explaining the nuances of the Presence as “aspect” and “God.” The being in Heaven has never been depicted as full Godhead and still aspects only though his metaphorical “presence.” The God we’ve seen so many time in Swamp Thing, JLA, Doctor Fate, Spectre, many other stories even one with Hawkman of all people literally shows how “non-dual” and beyond it is, such as, concepts of Light and Dark. If that’s not enough even Guidebook agree such as the Vast Vibrant Book, DC Book of List, and DC Greatest Events. Joshua Williamson said nothing of the Light being equated to the Presence. Morrison logic was never stated in the comics, just a teaser from the Map sketch and his logic can’t even work because the Overvoid was retconned.

So please, let me see this evidence you claim you have. I’ve read the story multiple time and I seem to not recall what’s sense is Light>Presence.

 

[Elizio33]

Wait…wait. Why would the Presence be lower than the Light of Creation? In what way does Light encompasses a being in almost every story, canon, and understanding who created the Light? Even without a direct mention of the Presence, where is coherent sense in that?

In most depiction of comics that goes hand to hand with religion. God was (as absolute) eternal. He was always concealed because during these time without Light, he was a state of non-dual shape. Light is predated by Darkness, not God/Presence nor preceded. Elizio use common sense! Where is this “evidence?”

VeryGoofyToddler I'm talking to Deagonx here. He was the first to agree this idea after me and I already said that I was open to consider the Presence > Light. Let's wait for Deagonx input.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

VeryGoofyToddler I'm talking to Deagonx here. He was the first to agree this idea after me and I already said that I was open to consider the Presence > Light. Let's wait for Deagonx input.

I feel that needed to be said. Something we shouldn’t even consider in the first place. What strike me as something weird is you recall “evidences” to suggest that notion when the stories literally show none of it.

Yeah, sure ask Deagon. However, do not say things like there is “evidences” to support such claims. It’s very misleading and not very enticing.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Thread 'DC upgrade 1A, likely H1A' https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-1a-likely-h1a.163368/

Sorry to disturb your time, dc upgrade is real

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Elizio33's sense of judgement here, but need a summary of what needs to be evaluated currently in order to be of any further help.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I trust Elizio33's sense of judgement here, but need a summary of what needs to be evaluated currently in order to be of any further help.

No evidence was brought up to appeal from the claim that the Presence is an aspect of the Light. Which doesn’t even make sense in the first place but apparently there is “proof” of this that Elizio has not at all shown. I assume the weird theory of Overvoid = Source = God which can’t even work in Crisis Cosmology because Overvoid was contradicted.

 

[Deagonx]

I assume the weird theory of Overvoid = Source = God which can’t even work in Crisis Cosmology because Overvoid was contradicted.

The Overvoid/Source/Presence being the same thing is pretty overt in the Crisis Cosmology. I dont know what you mean about the Overvoid being contradicted.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Overvoid/Source/Presence being the same thing is pretty overt in the Crisis Cosmology. I dont know what you mean about the Overvoid being contradicted.

Grant made the Overvoid as God, metaphorically, the paper that wasn’t predated and was always there. The Great Darkness predating the Light would be retcon by Final Crisis which would apparently be retcon in Frontier. That’s only including the logic that the Light = Overvoid. If that were the case then the Presence being the Light has no value and that theory has no meaning. Since it was never really implemented in the story in the first place.

Connecting too many dots like this is one, confusing, but also very incoherent and makes the Cosmology just seem like the next canon is meant to formulate everything of the past. The logic works up until Death Metal. So now you believe the Light contains the Presence?