DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision

[Elizio33]

Do you want me to send them here or elsewhere?

Here

 

[Nami_Kami]

Here

Alright.

In Our Worlds At War, universes in DC ( Yes, individual universes ) are further said to be 11-dimensional. This follows a variation of String Theory, which says our own universe is actually 11-D.


Although I don't remember which issue this was from, it's revealed in another comic that the universes are actually even more complex than initually thought, and that they are composed of MORE than 11 dimensions. This'd mean a DC universe is at least 12-D, or 1-B.

In DC Universe Presents #2 it's said that the DC multiverse has countless mathematical dimensions. Countless does not necessarily mean infinite, but it still supports that DC is high into 1-B at least.

Scott Snyder, the author of 'The 6th Dimension' has confirmed on FB and in an interview with The Imaginary Axis that the 5th and 6th dimensions are actually metaphysical and beyond physical dimensions. He adds that the 4th Dimension is simply the name for the entire set of physical dimensions existing, not a literal 4th dimensional space. He says that the 5th dimension is magic and imagination beyond the physical. And that the 6th dimension is even higher. Both of which would qualify for 1-A.

I remember The Sixth Dimension is what was used to downgrade DC, but that is just severely misunderstanding the comic and it's intent.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Fixed the links

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Although I don't remember which issue this was from, it's revealed in another comic that the universes are actually even more complex than initually thought, and that they are composed of MORE than 11 dimensions. This'd mean a DC universe is at least 12-D, or 1-B.

It's from the “Our Worlds At War” storyline. The scan in question is from Action Comics #781.

Scott Snyder, the author of 'The 6th Dimension' has confirmed on FB and in an interview with The Imaginary Axis that the 5th and 6th dimensions are actually metaphysical and beyond physical dimensions. He adds that the 4th Dimension is simply the name for the entire set of physical dimensions existing, not a literal 4th dimensional space. He says that the 5th dimension is magic and imagination beyond the physical. And that the 6th dimension is even higher. Both of which would qualify for 1-A.

I mean that's the gist but there's no direct comic citation on the matter. Given what's been accepted, it being above 11D is fine. Given that 6D does exist beyond space and time does mean some stuff, but that's for the mods to discuss.

I remember The Sixth Dimension is what was used to downgrade DC, but that is just severely misunderstanding the comic and it's intent.

No, not really. The split renders all statements of infinite dimensions or omniversal pan-dimensional things statements useless unless they actually mean spatial dimensions and not just alternate realities or realms. So, the Metal event only talks about everything existing in 4D was what warranted a Low 2-C rating for the Orrery in the previous Cosmology blog.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

In DC Universe Presents #2 it's said that the DC multiverse has countless mathematical dimensions. Countless does not necessarily mean infinite, but it still supports that DC is high into 1-B at least.

This particular statement is invalid. Please refer to this for why.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright.

In Our Worlds At War, universes in DC ( Yes, individual universes ) are further said to be 11-dimensional. This follows a variation of String Theory, which says our own universe is actually 11-D.


Although I don't remember which issue this was from, it's revealed in another comic that the universes are actually even more complex than initually thought, and that they are composed of MORE than 11 dimensions. This'd mean a DC universe is at least 12-D, or 1-B.

In DC Universe Presents #2 it's said that the DC multiverse has countless mathematical dimensions. Countless does not necessarily mean infinite, but it still supports that DC is high into 1-B at least.

Scott Snyder, the author of 'The 6th Dimension' has confirmed on FB and in an interview with The Imaginary Axis that the 5th and 6th dimensions are actually metaphysical and beyond physical dimensions. He adds that the 4th Dimension is simply the name for the entire set of physical dimensions existing, not a literal 4th dimensional space. He says that the 5th dimension is magic and imagination beyond the physical. And that the 6th dimension is even higher. Both of which would qualify for 1-A.

I remember The Sixth Dimension is what was used to downgrade DC, but that is just severely misunderstanding the comic and it's intent.

I don't think the Sixth Dimension would qualify for 1-A. From what we know, the Sixth Dimension is the control room of the Multiverse, a realm of the impossible beyond the imagination of most living beings, where the Multiverse was designed and set to motion.

The Sixth Dimension is beyond the comprehension of lower beings in the normal universe and to experience it would drive any of them mad. The happenings of the Sixth Dimension are beyond the perception of Mr. Mxyzptlk who himself exists outside of time, and was only able to create a portal there because the Source Wall was destroyed and it took a lot of his energy. Batman described the Sixth Dimension as a realm outside of time and because of this he said that Superman could have been gone for mouths, years, decades after he entered the portal to the Sixth Dimension.

The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence and the final realm, from there Superman has seen a multitude of events such as Batman locking him in darkness, an alternate version of Lois cradling their dead son, dead a thousand times now, and himself causing the end of everything.

In short, the Sixth Dimension is a timeless realm beyond the imagination and comprehension of almost all living beings and to experience it would drive any of them insane without any higher intervention, and exists as the penthouse of the Multiverse. Don't see anything for 1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The thing we're not considering is very clear, the Sixth Dimension isn't spatial and it lacks time. Clearly, even without a direct statement that means it is beyond at least the 4D concept of space-time. Given the specificity that the realm isn't geometrical, spatial, or temporal kind of gives the notion that it is literally meant to be beyond time and space as concepts.

 

[Elizio33]

The thing we're not considering is very clear, the Sixth Dimension isn't spatial and it lacks time. Clearly, even without a direct statement that means it is beyond at least the 4D concept of space-time. Given the specificity that the realm isn't geometrical, spatial, or temporal kind of gives the notion that it is literally meant to be beyond time and space as concepts.

Mr. Mxyzptlk made it clear that the Fifth Dimension is beyond 4-D and the Sixth Dimension is even higher, but yeah, it doesn't qualify for 1-A. 1-B should be fine given the cosmological scaling suggested in this thread.

 

[Weaver261]

Will this count too?
Wally shifting through layer of existences (Cosmological dimensions either 10 or 11 or 26)
These dimensions are folded like string dimensions and gallery exists beyond that
According Arc Angels (nth dimensional omnivalent beings), there're like endless emanations.

 

[Asterotheology]

While I have a bit of time. To give a bit of support to the 11-Dimensional stuff. There's a brief mention of it in hellblazer 2016. Mercury, who's of the Red, tells Swamp Thing that there's infinite planes and possibilities. Whole worlds and dimensions that are separated from their reality by invisible membranes criss crossing and cutting through 11 dimensions of space and time.

I'm paraphrasing a bit because I don't remember what she said word for word exactly. The scan should be in issue 3 or 4 of that Hellblazer run and it's part of DC Rebirth.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

VeryGoofyToddler shared really relevant scans from the ongoing Flash series. We should use this.

You can add it to the OP. That way it is easier to guarantee a 1-A tier.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Now, let's talk about the God Tiers.

The new Flash series provided new insights into DC Comics Cosmology, introducing N-dimensional structures and a cosmological chart of dimensions based on Wally West's interference patterns as he folded through dimensions called "SpectraVerse" having either ten, eleven, or twenty-six discrete frequencies. These are essentially layers of existence and the SpectraVerse is a dimensional vibration to access different layers. The same story also featured an unknown realm within the Speed Force called the "Garden of Shadows", beyond the Source Wall, beneath everything, deeper than space and time and where though and expression are one.

This alone should qualify for a possible 1-A tier because this place is deeper than the concept of space and time, and everything is more profound there and generates a relationship to R>F as Wally West interacted through the comic book panel in a place far beyond and below time and space.

The Greater Omniverse was referred to as "Infinite" in this story and should scale to this since the Speed Force is part of The Source, and The Source gave rise to, encompasses and sustains all contents of the Greater Omniverse. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Light of Creation should also scale to it for sharing an equal nature and stature to The Source and being the canvas of Creation outside space and time.

More to come!

I agree to 1-A now.

 

[Elizio33]

To be clear, the Orrery of Worlds would be High 1-C based on the 11-dimensional model of the Wildstorm Multiverse and also based on other evidence from Morrison's stories that the Multiverse extends beyond 5-D.

Any realm scaling up to the Orrery (Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension) would be 1-B for having qualitative superiority over 11-D.

The Greater Omniverse/Infinite would be 1-A from scaling to the Garden of Shadows which is deeper than space and time and has R>F over reality. The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation would be 1-A because the Garden of Shadows is within the Speed Force, which itself is part of The Source, and The Source share an equal nature and stature to the Overvoid which is the canvas of Creation outside of space and time, between Creation and the Great Darkness.

The Great Darkness would be 1-A for preceding and encompassing the Overvoid/Light of Creation.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me.

 

[Elizio33]

Now it's worth mentioning that not all characters have to scale to their realms, New Gods are a good example and should not be 1-B, but should instead scale to their Pre-Crisis selves (2-C). The Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be Low 1-C within the Monitor Sphere for having qualitative superiority over 4-D brane universes, mostly due to their scale and pitch in comparison and need to alter them to access the physical "germ worlds". The Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger should be 1-B based on the World Forger creating Hypertime and that they are three of the four most powerful known beings in existence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Now it's worth mentioning that not all characters have to scale to their realms, New Gods are a good example and should not be 1-B, but should instead scale to their Pre-Crisis selves (2-C). The Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be Low 1-C within the Monitor Sphere for having qualitative superiority over 4-D brane universes, mostly due to their scale and pitch in comparison and need to alter them to access the physical "germ worlds". The Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger should be 1-B based on the World Forger creating Hypertime and that they are three of the four most powerful known beings in existence.

Forger creating Hypertime is very incompatible with how Hypertime is being treated now. His 1-B should just be because he's a sixth-dimensional being.

 

[Elizio33]

Forger creating Hypertime is very incompatible with how Hypertime is being treated now. His 1-B should just be because he's a sixth-dimensional being.

Are you talking about the Hypertime and Sixth Dimension of World's Finest? If so, this particular story took place in the past, long before The Sixth Dimension saga of Scott Snyder, and depicted the Fifth and Sixth Dimensions in a way that was so at odds with how they're usually treated. I don't think we should use this information to update the DC Comics Cosmology but rather use it to scale the characters that were featured in this story like Bat-Mite who ascended to the Sixth Dimension, which was described as where all of time exists at once. Or just consider this description as an inconsistency.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

This alone should qualify for a possible 1-A tier because this place is deeper than the concept of space and time, and everything is more profound there and generates a relationship to R>F as Wally West interacted through the comic book panel in a place far beyond and below time and space.

The Greater Omniverse was referred to as "Infinite" in this story and should scale to this since the Speed Force is part of The Source, and The Source gave rise to, encompasses and sustains all contents of the Greater Omniverse. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Light of Creation should also scale to it for sharing an equal nature and stature to The Source and being the canvas of Creation outside space and time.

More to come!

I wanna wait for more input, but this makes sense to me. What's most telling is that the Source Wall is implied to be the limit to dimensionality itself with it being described as the "highest vibration" before one enters the infinite (with vibrations being contingent upon physical dimensionality under M-Theory), and the Garden of Shadows is described as absent of distance and direction, and implied to view "measurement," "memory," and "movement" and the present ("now") as illusions.

And then, the implications of R>F include:

• Speedsters being described as mere pieces on someone else's chessboard.
• Depicted as drawings on a paper.
• Speedsters are described as being bound to reality as if they have "strings attached."

My one nitpick is that the Garden isn't directly described as "deeper than the concept of space and time," but made of pure concept, which is deeper than space and time. In other words, it's the difference between "a conceptual realm beyond space-time" and "a realm beyond the concept of space-time."

All in all, this seems reasonable for at least a possible 1-A Tier, though I'd be fine with a flat-out 1-A rating if there is no contention. This aside, I suppose the main concern would be anti-feats? Well the scans depict speedsters as reaching this 1-A realm, but not only are speedsters augmented by the speedforce, which is the foundational essence for this 1-A realm, but they seem to be aided by that Ghost Lady, who appears to be an inhabitant of that realm.

As for this:

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

I still mostly disagree. However, someone else in this thread reminded me of some other 11-Dimensional scans which I originally wanted to bring up, but chose not too since I falsely believed the scans were from a Black Label Vertigo storyline. Source: The Hellblazer 003 (2016)

It's stated here that there are infinite planes of existence including Elemental Realms like the Green, Red, and Rot, all of which are serviced by 11 spatial dimensions. These 11 dimensions are all described as membranes, and brane-like dimensions should be significant in size by default.

 

[Weaver261]

The same story also featured an unknown realm within the Speed Force called the "Garden of Shadows", beyond the Source Wall, beneath everything, deeper than space and time and where though and expression are one.

I have something to say about this part. Correct me if I was wrong, "Garden Of Shadows" (it's actually called Gallery of Moments) isn't beyond Source Wall iirc. A new supreme being called "DEEP CHANGE" lies beyond source wall. It's the source of speed force and others energy changes. Arc Angles who created the Gallery called it as a higher power. So, gallery isn't actually beyond source wall. Also there're a lot of higher and lower planes (dimensions) wally passed through which is why I think Orrery shouldn't be limited to 11D. SpectraVerse also suggest the possiblity of 10,11-26 frequencies which are all string dimensions. And it's not stated that these planes are beyond orrery once. How do you think?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Are you talking about the Hypertime and Sixth Dimension of World's Finest? If so, this particular story took place in the past, long before The Sixth Dimension saga of Scott Snyder, and depicted the Fifth and Sixth Dimensions in a way that was so at odds with how they're usually treated. I don't think we should use this information to update the DC Comics Cosmology but rather use it to scale the characters that were featured in this story like Bat-Mite who ascended to the Sixth Dimension, which was described as where all of time exists at once. Or just consider this description as an inconsistency.

I was thinking more of Flashpoint: Beyond take on the concept.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I have something to say about this part. Correct me if I was wrong, "Garden Of Shadows" (it's actually called Gallery of Moments) isn't beyond Source Wall iirc. A new supreme being called "DEEP CHANGE" lies beyond source wall. It's the source of speed force and others energy changes. Arc Angles who created the Gallery called it as a higher power. So, gallery isn't actually beyond source wall. Also there're a lot of higher and lower planes (dimensions) wally passed through which is why I think Orrery shouldn't be limited to 11D. SpectraVerse also suggest the possiblity of 10,11-26 frequencies which are all string dimensions. And it's not stated that these planes are beyond orrery once. How do you think?

The Deep Change is the Speedforce.

 

[Weaver261]

The Deep Change is the Speedforce.

Well, it's not

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, it's not

The forces of Creation; Speed, strength, and Sage force are all part of it. However, the Speed Force tandem relationship can affect the Deep Change in a way that kills that “source of time.”

This does not include that the Speedforce pushes Time, and Wall being a conduit of a shell that's empty is used to kill Time itself. This would elude a sort of relationship much closer than the other energy. Perhaps, my wording is off, but the Speedforce isn't in the Multiverse, it is more so a living energy, not in any location. Given the description of the Gallery would heavily elude that it's still beyond the Source Wall and comparable to the Deep Change.

Also, I read your statement wrong.

 

[Weaver261]

And then, the implications of R>F include:

• Speedsters being described as mere pieces on someone else's chessboard.
• Depicted as drawings on a paper.
• Speedsters are described as being bound to reality as if they have "strings attached."

My one nitpick is that the Garden isn't directly described as "deeper than the concept of space and time," but made of pure concept, which is deeper than space and time. In other words, it's the difference between "a conceptual realm beyond space-time" and "a realm beyond the concept of space-time."

I've something to add on this part if I may. According Jai West who can shape the dimensions, the gallery is stated be made up of Imaginary math and it doesn't exist. He again compared Reality as a Math page and someone is twisting it. And he can resolve this. Can it qualify for R>F?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I have something to say about this part. Correct me if I was wrong, "Garden Of Shadows" (it's actually called Gallery of Moments) isn't beyond Source Wall iirc. A new supreme being called "DEEP CHANGE" lies beyond source wall. It's the source of speed force and others energy changes. Arc Angles who created the Gallery called it as a higher power. So, gallery isn't actually beyond source wall. Also there're a lot of higher and lower planes (dimensions) wally passed through which is why I think Orrery shouldn't be limited to 11D. SpectraVerse also suggest the possiblity of 10,11-26 frequencies which are all string dimensions. And it's not stated that these planes are beyond orrery once. How do you think?

I'll reread this properly and answer some of your questions.

• The realm is called both the Garden and the Gallery. So they're just interchangeable terms.
• Its location is very much beyond anything in Creation. The Speedforce was just emanated from something beyond the Source Wall doesn't detract that the realms in the Speedforce are also outside Creation by a factor of being part of the Speedforce.
• Also, the different frequencies of strings aren't meant to illicit spatial dimensions. They're referring to as you mentioned different places with a different dimensional vibrancy which even Grant used.
• Their location isn't well known, but some of them do not exist within the Orrery.

I've something to add on this part if I may. According Jai West who can shape the dimensions, the gallery is stated be made up of Imaginary math and it doesn't exist. He again compared Reality as a Math page and someone is twisting it. And he can resolve this. Can it qualify for R>F?

Yeah, that's part of the reason it's being regarded as 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

I have something to say about this part. Correct me if I was wrong, "Garden Of Shadows" (it's actually called Gallery of Moments) isn't beyond Source Wall iirc. A new supreme being called "DEEP CHANGE" lies beyond source wall. It's the source of speed force and others energy changes. Arc Angles who created the Gallery called it as a higher power. So, gallery isn't actually beyond source wall. Also there're a lot of higher and lower planes (dimensions) wally passed through which is why I think Orrery shouldn't be limited to 11D. SpectraVerse also suggest the possiblity of 10,11-26 frequencies which are all string dimensions. And it's not stated that these planes are beyond orrery once. How do you think?

VeryGoofyToddler answers these.

 

[Weaver261]

• The realm is called both the Garden and the Gallery. So they're just interchangeable terms.
• Its location is very much beyond anything in Creation. The Speedofrce was just emanated from something beyond the Source Wall doesn't detract that the realms in the Speedforce are also outside Creation by a factor of being part of the Speedforce.
• Also, the different frequencies of strings aren't meant to illicit spatial dimensions. They're referring to as you mentioned different places with a different dimensional vibrancy which even Grant used.
• Their location isn't well known, but some of them do not exist within the Orrery.

Different frequencies are meant for spatial dimensions since blob sphere (one of the planes wally passed thru) was a lower spatial dimension. And these dimensions are folded just like string dimensions. In the same scan, it shows a higher plane that manages the properties of the universe. So yeah, these are spatial dimensions. Source wall exists in every layers of existences in DC. So using the statement in annual issue of wally reaching the source wall as a proof of these spatial dimensions not existing in orrery would be not quite right. Orrery should be nth dimensional too.
The speed force and other energies are made up of times. And time is the dream of Deep change. Deep change is the universal constant that all energy speaks to. It's the source of speed force and other energies. Arc angles used wally as a weapon to poison the Deep change because deep change uses speedsters and other cosmic power users as a organ to probe into lower planes. And wally being the fastest man alive, is the biggest link to deep change. So, whatever arc angles fill wally with, deep change will consume it. Speed force is still in the multiverse because it was emanated the deep change from beyond the source wall.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Different frequencies are meant for spatial dimensions since blob sphere (one of the planes wally passed thru) was a lower spatial dimension. And these dimensions are folded just like string dimensions. In the same scan, it shows a higher plane that manages the properties of the universe. So yeah, these are spatial dimensions.

The realm itself isn't a sptial dimension. In wording of this “lower dimension” would infer a lower plane of existence, not a lower spatial dimension.

Source wall exists in every layers of existences in DC. So using the statement in annual issue of wally reaching the source wall as a proof of these spatial dimensions not existing in orrery would be not quite right. Orrery should be nth dimensional too.
The speed force and other energies are made up of times. And time is the dream of Deep change. Deep change is the universal constant that all energy speaks to. It's the source of speed force and other energies. Arc angles used wally as a weapon to poison the Deep change because deep change uses speedsters and other cosmic power users as a organ to probe into lower planes.

Yeah, your last sentence reaffirms the notion that plane is in reference to dimension.

And wally being the fastest man alive, is the biggest link to deep change. So, whatever arc angles fill wally with, deep change will consume it. Speed force is still in the multiverse because it was emanated the deep change from beyond the source wall.

No, it isn't? Nothing you said supports this notion. Especially, if we go back to Death Metal where the Totality of Creational energy has been there since the birth of the Greater Omniverse. These harmonic energy were used to craft the literal Multiverse.

Let's assume we don't even use Metal logic. The Gallery is described in the sense that it's a metaphysical existence(supporting an ontological plane of existence) that is such an abstract concept that it exists beyond that of Space and even deeper than the very concept of time and space. That's just a realm in the Speedforce that pushes time and motion for the entirety of the Creation and all its levels as we've seen in Flash: Annunal.

A Multiversal force =/= in the Multiverse.

 

[Weaver261]

The realm itself isn't a sptial dimension. In wording of this “lower dimension” would infer a lower plane of existence, not a lower spatial dimension.

Sry I was not knowledgeable enough but lower plane of existence and lower dimension aren't the same in this context? What do you mean by "isn't a spatial dimension"? It's clearly stated by folded man that he has control over all euclidean space which is the power given by Arc Angles. He told wally who passed through these planes that there's no more fold to turn before wally reach gallery of moments.
Edited : I understood what you mean "low dimension" = "lower plane" but how a lower plane and lower dimension differ and how the dimensions wally pass through isn't qualify for orrery to have more than 11D?

No, it isn't? Nothing you said supports this notion. Especially, if we go back to Death Metal where the Totality of Creational energy has been there since the birth of the Greater Omniverse. These harmonic energy were used to craft the literal Multiverse.

Let's assume we don't even use Metal logic. The Gallery is described in the sense that it's a metaphysical existence(supporting an ontological plane of existence) that is such an abstract concept that it exists beyond that of Space and even deeper than the very concept of time and space. That's just a realm in the Speedforce that pushes time and motion for the entirety of the Creation and all its levels as we've seen in Flash: Annunal.

A Multiversal force =/= in the Multiverse.

I don't think that is the case. In metal, connective energy given by the presence to the hands was used to create multiverses. And in DC, connective energy was made up of seven forces, speed force being one of them. So if we account the scan I provided from annual issue, it's certain that speed force was emanated from connective energy. So, connective energy given by the presence isn't in the multiverse but speed force is. Because it is an emanation of deep change beyond the source wall. It would not make sense the emanation existing in the same level of existence as the source.

 

[Eseseso]

Now it's worth mentioning that not all characters have to scale to their realms, New Gods are a good example and should not be 1-B, but should instead scale to their Pre-Crisis selves (2-C). The Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be Low 1-C within the Monitor Sphere for having qualitative superiority over 4-D brane universes, mostly due to their scale and pitch in comparison and need to alter them to access the physical "germ worlds". The Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger should be 1-B based on the World Forger creating Hypertime and that they are three of the four most powerful known beings in existence.

1. What about the Darkest Knight?

2. Will there be any 1-B people/realms with more than 12 dimensions?

The Greater Omniverse/Infinite would be 1-A from scaling to the Garden of Shadows which is deeper than space and time and has R>F over reality.

Anyone asides from the Big 3 (Source, Overvoid, and Light) who scales?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Sry I was not knowledgeable enough but lower plane of existence and lower dimension aren't the same in this context?

Yes, dimension = plane of existence. However, the scan needs a specific mention of spatial dimensions or else its just another term for plane, world, or realm.

What do you mean by "isn't a spatial dimension"? It's clearly stated by folded man that he has control over all euclidean space which is the power given by Arc Angles. He told wally who passed through these planes that there's no more fold to turn before wally reach gallery of moments.

Yeah, geometrical dimensions are treated as that. However, Euclidean Space wouldn't mean much in this case since these objects(not literal geomertical properties but just different vibrational frequencies of beings existing on different levels of existence) or planes(not math plane, but literal existence plane) are treated as dimensions in question in accordance with their intrinsic nature. Unless a plane exists for every spatial dimension then I would just count the term “dimension” as just another plane of existence. Simon Spurrier isn't a math-savvy guy and it is not entirely correct how he uses it.

However, I do digress and agree that the Gallery is above any aforementioned dimensions or manifold that would include all objects in Euclidean which by virtue of supplementary information would make the Gallery have BDE and 1-A by the ontological nature of the Garden.

I don't think that is the case. In metal, connective energy given by the presence to the hands was used to create multiverses. And in DC, connective energy was made up of seven forces, speed force being one of them. So if we account the scan I provided from annual issue, it's certain that speed force was emanated from connective energy. So, connective energy given by the presence isn't in the multiverse but speed force is. Because it is an emanation of deep change beyond the source wall. It would not make sense the emanation existing in the same level of existence as the source.

What? No.

The Speedforce is an energy of the Totality, born of the Presence. It was then sent to the Supercelestial using the raw material of the Source(Connective Energy) to form the Multiverse and let the Totality be the force of good that lets the Multiverse grow and rise in harmony. The Speedforce isn't bound to the Multiverse, which it also predates and permeates.

 

[Weaver261]

However, I do digress and agree that the Gallery is above any aforementioned dimensions or manifold that would include all objects in Euclidean which by virtue of supplementary information would make the Gallery have BDE and 1-A by the ontological nature of the Garden.

I will not go further in this topic since we both agree on this.

The Speedforce is an energy of the Totality, born of the Presence. It was then sent to the Supercelestial using the raw material of the Source(Connective Energy) to form the Multiverse and let the Totality be the force of good that lets the Multiverse grow and rise in harmony. The Speedforce isn't bound to the Multiverse, which it also predates and permeates

I don't think speed force is the energy of totality. If u have the scan of saying so, I wish to see it. It's stated in death metal #1 that speed force is one of positive force and it's connective in essence. It's part of anti crisis energy aka connective energy. It's directly stated in annual issue that speed force is emanated from deep change beyond the source wall.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't think speed force is the energy of totality. If u have the scan of saying so, I wish to see it. It's stated in death metal #1 that speed force is one of positive force and it's connective in essence. It's part of anti crisis energy aka connective energy. It's directly stated in annual issue that speed force is emanated from deep change beyond the source wall.

For the Death Metal part, it literally predates the Multiverse and all of them since each Hand responsible for a Multiverse used the same energy gifted by the Presence. Perpetua's explanation on the matter and Mar Novu's assessment make that clear.

Like I said about the annual. It being an emanation of the Deep Change that exists beyond the Source Wall does not make the Speedforce be constrained within the Multiverse. If there's no actual change on Metal lore then its still precedes the Multiverse, just instead of being an a energy of the Totality born from the Presence, it’s an enmanation of the Deep Chnage.

 

[Elizio33]

1. What about the Darkest Knight?

2. Will there be any 1-B people/realms with more than 12 dimensions?

Anyone asides from the Big 3 (Source, Overvoid, and Light) who scales?

1. The Darkest Knight would be 1-B from fighting Perpetua in a clash that raged across every facet of reality, which ultimately resulted in her death.

2. The Sphere of the Gods would have 1 infinity above the Orrery, the Monitor Sphere 2 infinities, the Fifth and Sixth Dimensions 3 infinities.

3. The Great Darkness and The Presence/Creator would be 1-A. I don't know if The Hands should have a 1-A tier based on BDE 2 or just have a 1-B tier, but the Arc Angles should be 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

For the Death Metal part, it literally predates the Multiverse and all of them since each Hand responsible for a Multiverse used the same energy gifted by the Presence. Perpetua's explanation on the matter and Mar Novu's assessment make that clear.

Like I said about the annual. It being an emanation of the Deep Change that exists beyond the Source Wall does not make the Speedforce be constrained within the Multiverse. If there's no actual change on Metal lore then its still precedes the Multiverse, just instead of being an a energy of the Totality born from the Presence, it an enmanation of the Deep Chnage.

Well, I think the new information from the new Flash series can be reconciled with the Metal lore. Thus, we can assume that the Speed Force is both an enmanation of the Deep Change and one of the Connective Energy born of The Source and used by The Hands to shape Multiverses.

Anyway. I think some realms or layers of existence from the SpectraVerse should be contained within the Divine Continuum since some of them are still within Creation which the Divine Continuum represent.

 

[Elizio33]

Orrery of Worlds - High 1-C: The multiversal superstructure of fifty-two brane universes with eleven dimensions of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe. It's possible that the Orrery of Worlds is not limited to eleven dimensions and that there may be higher dimensions, but since their locations in the cosmology have not been decided, it is difficult to locate them correctly.

Sphere of the Gods - 1-B: The magical sphere surrounding the Orrery of Worlds inhabited by gods, demigods, angels, demons or any magical being worshiped by mortals. It is located outside the Orrery's superluminal barrier, where matter is converted into pure information and thus outside of corporeal reality, having archetypal, platonic and higher vibratory worlds. It has close ties to beliefs which shaped every realm or entity in the Sphere of the Gods through the Collective Unconscious, and is one of the Connective Energy born of The Source. At the crest of the Sphere of the Gods is the Collective Unconscious, which manifests divinity through belief and is inhabited by Hecate. It is also one of the Connective Energy.

Comic Book Limbo - 1-B: The last outpost of existence proper before reaching the Monitor Sphere and is the dumping ground for all the forgotten of the Orrery of Worlds.

Monitor Sphere - 1-B: The archetypal Monitor World inhabited by the Monitors of Nil, a primal and fundamental world where space, time, scale are more profound and meaningful. It exists at the edge of things and when Mandrakk fell from there, he fell into the Overvoid and landed in the Dark Multiverse. From there, Mar Novu peered beyond the void, into the Greater Omniverse, to observe the neighboring Multiverses.

Dark Multiverse - 1-B: The sea of the unconscious upon which floats the Multiverse, located beneath Creation, and containing infinite universes based on the hopes and fears of all living beings in the Orrery of Worlds above. At the center of the Dark Multiverse lies the Forge of Worlds, a place of pure possibility and dark matter, where universes are forged and returned. On the border surrounding the Dark Multiverse is the Otherworld inhabited by the Otherkinds and the Upside-Down Man. It is the dark yet much larger equivalent of the Sphere of the Gods.

Divine Continuum - 1-B: The hypothetical model of Existence which is represented by all space and time. (i.e. Omniverse and Hypertime) The Space aspect of the Divine Continuum (Omniverse) is divided by the Orrery of Worlds (and infinite Multiverses), Metaverse (Earth Prime), Sphere of the Gods, Dark Multiverse. The Time aspect of the Divine Continuum (Hypertime) is divided into Limbo and Vanishing Point. It is very likely that higher layers of existence from the SpectraVerse are contained within it, though some layers are outside of Creation.

Fifth Dimension - 1-B: The "energy" that flows between realms is Imagination and is inhabited by imaginary-thought constructs which are considered as "imaginary friends" or "guardian angels". It exists everywhere at once because it is outside of time and therefore has no specific location in cosmology.

Sixth Dimension - 1-B: The highest plane of existence and the final realm, between the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall within the model of the DC Comics Cosmology. It is a realm of the impossible for things beyond the imagination of most living beings and is outside of time and understanding, in which lower beings could not experience without higher intervention. It distinct itself from the Monitor Sphere in that, although the Monitor Sphere exists at the edge of things, the Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence where the Multiverse was designed and set to motion by Perpetua.

Greater Omniverse/Infinite - 1-A: Outside the Source Wall lies the "Infinite" or "Greater Omniverse" located within the Overvoid outside and beyond Creation, having conceptual places beyond space and time and where thought and expression are one. It is where infinite Multiverses are created and judged by The Hands, and where the Deep Change operates, the Speed Force being an enmanation of the Deep Change and one of the Connective Energy born of The Source, which itself contains the Gallery of Moments/Garden of Shadows.

The Source - 1-A: An ocean of great energy of creation that gave rise to, encompasses and sustains everything in the Greater Omniverse, and from The Source were born the Connective Energy, including the Speed Force, used by The Hands to shape Multiverses throughout the Overvoid. It has close ties to life and creation and contains life and anti-life, good and evil, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once, and should be regarded as an ultimate concept that cannot be halved or divided.

Light of Creation/Monitor-Mind - 1-A: The living conscious void and abstract intelligence outside the Source Wall. It is the white canvas of Creation outside of time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, and is sometimes tied to Heaven, Angels and Creation. It is also an aspect of The Presence, created when the latter said: "Let there be light!" It exists on the same level of existence as The Source and they share an equal nature and stature.

Great Darkness/Primordial Darkness - 1-A: The Primordial Darkness preceding life, death, matter and magic and of which nothing and everything were the same thing. The Source and The Light of Creation were born of the Primordial Darkness which encompasses all.

Creator/Presence/God - 1-A, possibly 0: The non-dual and immutable God who breathed everything into existence, standing utterly beyond the war of Light and Darkness, and all opposites, and is in a place where there is no time or space, being synonymous with the Void. It manifest itself in three distinct yet equal figures: Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Light of Creation. The Voice who created The Word when he first spoken, commanding The Light through it, is an aspect of God.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Orrery of Worlds - High 1-C: The multiversal superstructure of fifty-two brane universes with eleven dimensions of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe. It's possible that the Orrery of Worlds is not limited to eleven dimensions and that there may be higher dimensions, but since their locations in the cosmology have not been decided, it is difficult to locate them correctly.

The Sphere of the Gods - 1-B: The magical sphere surrounding the Orrery of Worlds inhabited by gods, demigods, angels, demons or any magical being worshiped by mortals. It is located outside the Orrery's superluminal barrier, where matter is converted into pure information and thus outside of corporeal reality, having archetypal, platonic and higher vibratory worlds. It has close ties to beliefs which shaped every realm or entity in the Sphere of the Gods through the Collective Unconscious, and is one of the Connective Energy born of The Source. At the crest of the Sphere of the Gods is the Collective Unconscious, which manifests divinity through belief and is inhabited by Hecate. It is also one of the Connective Energy.

Comic Book Limbo - 1-B: The last outpost of existence proper before reaching the Monitor Sphere and is the dumping ground for all the forgotten of the Orrery of Worlds.

Monitor Sphere - 1-B: The archetypal Monitor World inhabited by the Monitors of Nil, a primal and fundamental world where space, time, scale are more profound and meaningful. It exists at the edge of things and when Mandrakk fell from there, he fell into the Overvoid and landed in the Dark Multiverse.

Dark Multiverse - 1-B: The sea of the unconscious upon which floats the Multiverse, located beneath Creation, and containing infinite universes based on the hopes and fears of all living beings in the Orrery of Worlds above. At the center of the Dark Multiverse lies the Forge of Worlds, a place of pure possibility and dark matter, where universes are forged and returned. On the border surrounding the Dark Multiverse is the Otherworld inhabited by the Otherkinds and the Upside-Down Man. It is the dark yet much larger equivalent of the Sphere of the Gods.

Divine Continuum - 1-B: The hypothetical model of Existence which is represented by all space and time. (i.e. Omniverse and Hypertime) The Space aspect of the Divine Continuum (Omniverse) is divided by the Orrery of Worlds (and infinite Multiverses), Metaverse (Earth Prime), Sphere of the Gods, Dark Multiverse. The Time aspect of the Divine Continuum (Hypertime) is divided into Limbo and Vanishing Point. It is very likely that higher layers of existence from the SpectraVerse are contained within it, though some layers are outside of Creation.

Fifth Dimension - 1-B: The "energy" that flows between realms is Imagination and is inhabited by imaginary-thought constructs which are considered as "imaginary friends" or "guardian angels". It exists everywhere at once because it is outside of time and therefore has no specific location in cosmology.

Sixth Dimension - 1-B: The highest plane of existence and the final realm, between the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall within the model of the DC Comics Cosmology. It is a realm of the impossible for things beyond the imagination of most living beings and is outside of time and understanding, in which lower beings could not experience without higher intervention.

Greater Omniverse/Infinite - 1-A: Outside the Source Wall lies the "Infinite" or "Greater Omniverse" located within the Overvoid outside and beyond Creation, having conceptual places beyond space and time and where thought and expression are one. It is where infinite Multiverses are created and judged by The Hands, and where the Deep Change operates, the Speed Force being an enmanation of the Deep Change and one of the Connective Energy born of The Source, which itself contains the Gallery of Moments/Garden of Shadows.

The Source - 1-A: An ocean that gave rise to, encompasses and sustains everything in the Greater Omniverse, and from The Source were born the Connective Energy, including the Speed Force, used by The Hands to shape Multiverses throughout the Overvoid. It has close ties to life and creation and contains life and anti-life, good and evil, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once, and should be regarded as an ultimate concept that cannot be halved or divided.

Light of Creation/Monitor-Mind - 1-A: The living conscious void and abstract intelligence outside the Source Wall. It is the white canvas of Creation outside of time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, and is sometimes tied to Heaven, Angels and Creation. It is also an aspect of The Presence, created when the latter said: "Let there be light!" It exists on the same level of existence as The Source and they share an equal nature and stature.

There's something that bothers me. I feel the Divine Continuum also kind of encompasses the Sixth Dimension. Given there's a temporal history of it. It was stated the passage of time when the Multiverse was created was about 20 billion years ago.

I might be nitpicking, but that's something to think about.

 

[Elizio33]

There's something that bothers me. I feel the Divine Connutim also kind of encompasses the Sixth Dimension. Given there's a temporal history of it. It was stated the passage of time when the Multiverse was created was about 20 billion years ago.

I might be nitpicking, but that's something to think about.

I feel like the Sixth Dimension is at the top of the Divine Continuum, between it and the Source Wall before reaching the Infinite/Greater Omniverse. It's not necessarily outside of it but its the final realm of the Divine Continuum.

 

[Elizio33]

The Orrery of Worlds - High 1-C: The multiversal superstructure of fifty-two brane universes with eleven dimensions of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe. It's possible that the Orrery of Worlds is not limited to eleven dimensions and that there may be higher dimensions, but since their locations in the cosmology have not been decided, it is difficult to locate them correctly.

The Sphere of the Gods - 1-B: The magical sphere surrounding the Orrery of Worlds inhabited by gods, demigods, angels, demons or any magical being worshiped by mortals. It is located outside the Orrery's superluminal barrier, where matter is converted into pure information and thus outside of corporeal reality, having archetypal, platonic and higher vibratory worlds. It has close ties to beliefs which shaped every realm or entity in the Sphere of the Gods through the Collective Unconscious, and is one of the Connective Energy born of The Source. At the crest of the Sphere of the Gods is the Collective Unconscious, which manifests divinity through belief and is inhabited by Hecate. It is also one of the Connective Energy.

Comic Book Limbo - 1-B: The last outpost of existence proper before reaching the Monitor Sphere and is the dumping ground for all the forgotten of the Orrery of Worlds.

Monitor Sphere - 1-B: The archetypal Monitor World inhabited by the Monitors of Nil, a primal and fundamental world where space, time, scale are more profound and meaningful. It exists at the edge of things and when Mandrakk fell from there, he fell into the Overvoid and landed in the Dark Multiverse.

Dark Multiverse - 1-B: The sea of the unconscious upon which floats the Multiverse, located beneath Creation, and containing infinite universes based on the hopes and fears of all living beings in the Orrery of Worlds above. At the center of the Dark Multiverse lies the Forge of Worlds, a place of pure possibility and dark matter, where universes are forged and returned. On the border surrounding the Dark Multiverse is the Otherworld inhabited by the Otherkinds and the Upside-Down Man. It is the dark yet much larger equivalent of the Sphere of the Gods.

Divine Continuum - 1-B: The hypothetical model of Existence which is represented by all space and time. (i.e. Omniverse and Hypertime) The Space aspect of the Divine Continuum (Omniverse) is divided by the Orrery of Worlds (and infinite Multiverses), Metaverse (Earth Prime), Sphere of the Gods, Dark Multiverse. The Time aspect of the Divine Continuum (Hypertime) is divided into Limbo and Vanishing Point. It is very likely that higher layers of existence from the SpectraVerse are contained within it, though some layers are outside of Creation.

Fifth Dimension - 1-B: The "energy" that flows between realms is Imagination and is inhabited by imaginary-thought constructs which are considered as "imaginary friends" or "guardian angels". It exists everywhere at once because it is outside of time and therefore has no specific location in cosmology.

Sixth Dimension - 1-B: The highest plane of existence and the final realm, between the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall within the model of the DC Comics Cosmology. It is a realm of the impossible for things beyond the imagination of most living beings and is outside of time and understanding, in which lower beings could not experience without higher intervention.

Greater Omniverse/Infinite - 1-A: Outside the Source Wall lies the "Infinite" or "Greater Omniverse" located within the Overvoid outside and beyond Creation, having conceptual places beyond space and time and where thought and expression are one. It is where infinite Multiverses are created and judged by The Hands, and where the Deep Change operates, the Speed Force being an enmanation of the Deep Change and one of the Connective Energy born of The Source, which itself contains the Gallery of Moments/Garden of Shadows.

The Source - 1-A: An ocean that gave rise to, encompasses and sustains everything in the Greater Omniverse, and from The Source were born the Connective Energy, including the Speed Force, used by The Hands to shape Multiverses throughout the Overvoid. It has close ties to life and creation and contains life and anti-life, good and evil, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once, and should be regarded as an ultimate concept that cannot be halved or divided.

Light of Creation/Monitor-Mind - 1-A: The living conscious void and abstract intelligence outside the Source Wall. It is the white canvas of Creation outside of time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, and is sometimes tied to Heaven, Angels and Creation. It is also an aspect of The Presence, created when the latter said: "Let there be light!" It exists on the same level of existence as The Source and they share an equal nature and stature.

Great Darkness/Primordial Darkness - 1-A: The Primordial Darkness preceding life, death, matter and magic and of which nothing and everything were the same thing. The Source and The Light of Creation were born of the Primordial Darkness which encompasses all.

Creator/Presence/God - 1-A, possibly 0: The ultimate, underlying God devoid of definition and beyond duality, including the war between Light and Darkness, and breathed everything into existence. It manifest itself in three distinct yet equal figures: Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Light of Creation. The Voice who created The Word when he first spoken, commanding The Light through it, is an aspect of God.

What do you think about a 1-A, possibly 0 Tier for Creator/Presence/God ?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I feel like the Sixth Dimension is at the top of the Divine Continuum, between it and the Source Wall before reaching the Infinite/Greater Omniverse.

My analogy is that Divine Contnium is the Multiverse itself. Being that Time and Space encompass everything ie the Omniverse is the total structure of the Multiverse and Hypertime is all the time in the Multiverse so all things in the Multiverse are linked to some form of space or time. For all intents and purposes, the Sixth Dimension is still part of the Multiverse and thus part of the Divine Conntium. That's my thought process on the matter.

Sixth Dimension is a plane thus it is bounded by the space portion.

The Sixth Dimension about twenty billion years ago birth the Multiverse thus it is bounded by the time portion.

Perhaps, I'm thinking about it too hard.