DC Cosmology: Crisis Cosmology - Part 1

[Elizio33]

The Overvoid/Source/Presence being the same thing is pretty overt in the Crisis Cosmology. I dont know what you mean about the Overvoid being contradicted.

Goofy was essentially saying that the Presence should be above the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness, as the one who creates the Light, instead of viewing the Presence as the Light of Creation.

 

[Elizio33]

I trust Elizio33's sense of judgement here, but need a summary of what needs to be evaluated currently in order to be of any further help.

Thank you.

Hypertime should be evaluated, more precisely the line time, plane time, and cube time, which were described as time dimensions in The Return of Bruce Wayne, although plane time is a little doubtful. But I still believe that it makes sense and does not contradict everything, being consistent with our Crisis Cosmology.

The Light of Creation is up for debate since the Presence in several other stories, ulterior to those used for Crisis Cosmology, has been depicted as the one who'd created Light and was shown to be above the Great Darkness.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Deagonx]

Grant made the Overvoid as God, metaphorically, the paper that wasn’t predated and was always there. The Great Darkness predating the Light would be retcon by Final Crisis which would apparently be retcon in Frontier. That’s only including the logic that the Light = Overvoid. If that were the case then the Presence being the Light has no value and that theory has no meaning. Since it was never really implemented in the story in the first place.

Connecting too many dots like this is one, confusing, but also very incoherent and makes the Cosmology just seem like the next canon is meant to formulate everything of the past. The logic works up until Death Metal. So now you believe the Light contains the Presence?

I'm more of the opinion that Williamson merged the Presence and the Overvoid's origin stories in that comic.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm more of the opinion that Williamson merged the Presence and the Overvoid's origin stories in that comic.

The Presence has an “origin?” We can’t assume this. Clearly, the Overvoid is no longer non-dual being that wasn’t created. Williamson logic would only aim at the time of Final Crisis on where the Light fits in with the Overvoid. Which I do not think the Presence is mentioned to be the same as this new version.

I’ll still adhere to the logic in almost any canon, something created Light. It’s wasn’t naturally spawned and that concept hasn’t been debunked in the comics. Especially, given the Light isn’t something the Darkness expected. I’ll say it again where is the coherent logic of saying Light = God? You would think he did create it, no?

 

[Elizio33]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

What's your opinion on what i said about Hypertime ?

These are the informations given in the comic; The Return of Bruce Wayne.

The maps of space-time start with the time point containing all possibilities. By simple geometry, the time point extent to a line representing a linear timeline. Plane time was described as an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating timelines, which Grant described as a two-dimensional plane. Cube time was described as the perpendicular to plane time and from where lives beings seeing the denizens of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective: flat. There is also hypercube time, but hypercube time is too vague. Hypercube, regardless of the story, was always implied to be the pinnacle of time and these three concepts were described as time dimensions. Morrison even described Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm more of the opinion that Williamson merged the Presence and the Overvoid's origin stories in that comic.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Antvasima]

What's your opinion on what i said about Hypertime ?

These are the informations given in the comic; The Return of Bruce Wayne.

The maps of space-time start with the time point containing all possibilities. By simple geometry, the time point extent to a line representing a linear timeline. Plane time was described as an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating timelines, which Grant described as a two-dimensional plane. Cube time was described as the perpendicular to plane time and from where lives beings seeing the denizens of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective: flat. There is also hypercube time, but hypercube time is too vague. Hypercube, regardless of the story, was always implied to be the pinnacle of time and these three concepts were described as time dimensions. Morrison even described Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept.

I think that your interpretation seems to make sense.

 

[Elizio33]

@VeryGoofyToddler maybe I went too far in saying there is evidence, but I'm still open to considering Presence > Light.

 

[Elizio33]

I think that your interpretation seems to make sense.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

@VeryGoofyToddler maybe I went too far in saying there is evidence, but I'm still open to considering Presence > Light.

I feel the Presence is much like what is being describe of the Darkness being “eternal.” The idea that Kabbalah introduced was Ein Sof is God without limit and prior to make the world through the Tree that emanated his divine light, he was concealed. Even Meher Baba and by extension some Hindu belief of the Supreme Brahman was dreaming of the Universe but prior to that was just empty nothing as a state of bliss that was only God even when he wasn’t known as God nor was he aware of himself.

The idea the Great Darkness was once just nothing because everything was nothing, at the time. It would make sense that God was either “sleeping” or concealed and the act of Creation came by creating the Light to fight a dualistic battle when the Great Darkness became a being rather than just a state of nothing to oppose the Light shining across its infinite body. I can not see how the Light being equal to the Presence. It’s just doesn’t work and seems wrong.

 

[Ramasugita11]

I trust Elizio33's sense of judgement here, but need a summary of what needs to be evaluated currently in order to be of any further help.

You also know that I haven't been involved in this discussion for a long time, so just give me this chance

 

[Elizio33]

What are the conclusions so far about the Presence? Either we view the Presence as the one creating the Light, or we view the Light as the same as the Presence in the Crisis Cosmology exclusively.

 

[Ramasugita11]

What are the conclusions so far about the Presence? Either we view the Presence as the one creating the Light, or we view the Light as the same as the Presence in the Crisis Cosmology exclusively.

The presence is the original form, yahweh is an avatar

 

[Deagonx]

Nothing in the comics suggests the Presence has avatars.

 

[Elizio33]

The presence is the original form, yahweh is an avatar

The name "Yahweh" was only used in Vertigo, as far as I know, but I could definitely be wrong. However, Yahweh was an avatar of the Presence in Vertigo but we can't use it for the Crisis Cosmology since none of these were even mentioned in the stories used for our Crisis Cosmology.

 

[Elizio33]

Nothing in the comics suggests the Presence has avatars.

I wouldn't say nothing. But my question was what to do with the Light and Presence folder.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm more of the opinion we should keep it uncomplicated and consider them two names for the same thing.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

When will it be upgraded?

 

[Ramasugita11]

I wouldn't say nothing. But my question was what to do with the Light and Presence folder.

If we discuss the main DC cosmology, it is true that the presence/the source manifests himself in physical form. His true form lies outside the source wall
#Databook
#The source + The source
#The source
#The presence
#The source

vertigo version:
#Yahweh

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree. He has aspects but “avatars” is more difficult to explain. The entire Godhead should be > Light. It’s more complaints to say Light = Presence as God can’t embody full something he made. Most people view the Presence working through aspects and maybe avatars. I don’t see the complication since an Omnipresent being can split himself in many ways.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Not to mention Swamp Thing made the statement “a Hand from Heaven” which represented ultimate good. The Presence is fair but all his depiction never put him as “all-good.” Not to mention if it were from Heaven that same Hand, then that’s an aspect. Scott Snyder has said and when I talked to Tyler. The Presence works through avatars ie physical manifestation(avatars) while it itself is an aspect of the Supreme which it acts through shape while the Source acts as more so energy.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Thats right

Not to mention Swamp Thing made the statement “a Hand from Heaven” which represented ultimate good. The Presence is fair but all his depiction never put him as “all-good.” Not to mention if it were from Heaven that same Hand, then that’s an aspect. Scott Snyder has said and when I talked to Tyler. The Presence works through avatars ie physical manifestation(avatars) while it itself is an aspect of the Supreme which it acts through shape while the Source acts as more so energy.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I know. It’s not hard to tell. It’s be better if there was evidence that the Presence was the Light rather than being the creator of it. Since the story makes of no mention and the Light can’t randomly appear then “something/someone” had to create it. It definitely wasn’t the Darkness since at the time the Darkness was a state of existence, not a being.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I will clarify one thing, however, talking to Tyler. I did pick up something’s because his view isn’t mentioned by Snyder. Snyder was very insistent that the Presence/Source is Supreme while Tyler added the theory that those two are personality of the Supreme.

However, we know the Presence as Tyler and Snyder both mentioned is meant to be an avatar of something else. This aligns with the idea of the Presence through human belief and the Presence as God/Supreme. With all the rich history of the Presence and even most fandoms put the Source as an aspect of the full Godhead which most writers, scholars, and knowledgeable people put as the Presence true shape. I think it make sense that same Godhead created the Light. Dark Crisis never called the Light “God” and Swamp Thing differentiate God and the Light. For the Light to be the Presence, we need direct citation because unless it’s mentioned, it makes no sense.

 

[Ramasugita11]

I will clarify one thing, however, talking to Tyler. I did pick up something’s because his view isn’t mentioned by Snyder. Snyder was very insistent that the Presence/Source is Supreme while Tyler added the theory that those two are personality of the Supreme.

However, we know the Presence as Tyler and Snyder both mentioned is meant to be an avatar of something else. This aligns with the idea of the Presence through human belief and the Presence as God/Supreme. With all the rich history of the Presence and even most fandoms put the Source as an aspect of the full Godhead which most writers, scholars, and knowledgeable people put as the Presence true shape. I think it make sense that same Godhead created the Light. Dark Crisis never called the Light “God” and Swamp Thing differentiate God and the Light. For the Light to be the Presence, we need direct citation because unless it’s mentioned, it makes no sense.

I agree, considering the final heaven comic and eonymous being above it, there must be one god

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree, considering the final heaven comic and eonymous being above it, there must be one god

No. The Animal verse is in the Sphere. The idea of God is above planes though.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Final heaven is in the sphere of the gods?

No. The Animal verse is in the Sphere. The idea of God is above planes though.

I think it's beyond the overvoid

I don't consider Overvoid to be the main god, I'm waiting for new comics about something outside the great darkness

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Final heaven is in the sphere of the gods?

Yes. Even the Fandom claims it is. This is because reality is just referencing the worlds in the Orrery as “Entertainment.” There’s no specific mention of anything higher.

I think it's beyond the overvoid

I asked Steve Orlando and he was pretty insistent on the placement of the story being not in the Overvoid. These conceptual beings he told me had a position in the Young Animal Universe which is just an Earth like anything else.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Yes. Even the Fandom claims it is. This is because reality is just referencing the worlds in the Orrery as “Entertainment.” There’s no specific mention of anything higher.

I asked Steve Orlando and he was pretty insistent on the placement of the story being not in the Overvoid. These conceptual beings he told me had a position in the Young Animal Universe which is just an Earth like anything else.

Actually it's already in the guidebook that I read, I just want to ask more, anhl is a hero archetype

 

[Deagonx]

I asked Steve Orlando and he was pretty insistent on the placement of the story being not in the Overvoid. These conceptual beings he told me had a position in the Young Animal Universe which is just an Earth like anything else.

That is absolutely not what he said, dude.

 

[Ramasugita11]

That is absolutely not what he said, dude.

Declared to be a mysterious place, right?

But anhl is really the hero archetype, he was originally in the sphere of the gods

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That is absolutely not what he said, dude.

It is? He was answering a question about AHL Omnipotence. I was asking of AHL, “god of superheroes” from Retconn where such placement would put them. I asked if he/they would view the Overvoid as 2D. That answer largely hints it wasn’t. He said the Young Animal Universe has a position in the Multiversity which is not above the Sphere. Everything else is vague.

I’m well aware of your question with Steve Orlando.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Declared to be a mysterious place, right?

But anhl is really the hero archetype, he was originally the sphere of the gods

He was saying the exact location of such beings was left for intrepretation because it was vague. The Young Animal Universe, however, does have a place. It’s highly unlike it was anything above the Sphere.

 

[Weaver261]

I'm more of the opinion that Williamson merged the Presence and the Overvoid's origin stories in that comic.

More like The Presence (True Divine Presence) brings his light to create multiverses. He brought his light to nothingness and it grew and became the overvoid. As a result, The Presence also made The Great Darkness becuz nothingness started sensing its own identity.
This panel stated that God brought the light

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Harley Quinn vol.3 #50 does describe Harley "breaking DC continuity" as more worse then the entirety of Milk Wars.

The problem with that is that the map thinks of Limbo as the edge of the DCU as a whole, and I believe Morrison has defined (and implied in the comics) the Monitor Sphere as existing beyond the DCU proper as well as showing the CAS interacting with the speech bubbles and whatnot.

I believe the Milk Wars cosmology to probably just be around that SoG-Limbo sphere too.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Harley Quinn vol.3 #50 does describe Harley "breaking DC continuity" as more worse then the entirety of Milk Wars.

The problem with that is that the map thinks of Limbo as the edge of the DCU as a whole, and I believe Morrison has defined (and implied in the comics) the Monitor Sphere as existing beyond the DCU proper as well as showing the CAS interacting with the speech bubbles and whatnot.

I believe the Milk Wars cosmology to probably just be around that SoG-Limbo sphere too.

I was talking about Final Heaven/Retconn. Deagon probably was confusing it with the Eonymous, whom probably do exist above the Overvoid.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

More like The Presence (True Divine Presence) brings his light to create multiverses. He brought his light to nothingness and it grew and became the overvoid. As a result, The Presence also made The Great Darkness becuz nothingness started sensing its own identity.
This panel stated that God brought the light

The fact, the Light being the Presence was taken into consideration bewildered me. What sense is there on claiming that? I’m pretty sure Williamson follow the route most authors go with “God”

For obvious reasons, religion is something writers have handled with a very light touch over the years. Interestingly, theologian and comics scribe John Ostrander wrote a Spectre series for more than sixty issues. "You look at some of the classic Spectre stuff and you look what Ostrander did in particular, and things like that and what you end up with are stories that are kind of like DC does EC Comics! And yet at the same time, The Spectre is always reared up as this all-powerful, all-mighty force that is sometimes dropped into the middle of a story and can literally look at somebody and say, 'You are a soap bubble' and pop, you are."It becomes tricky to negotiate if you start inviting real religion into it and we're not going to do that," Rucka added. "But the sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that the Judeo-Christian God sits above all others. And then below that you can have your New Gods and your Greek gods and whoever else you want."

 

[Weaver261]

The fact, the Light being the Presence was taken into consideration bewildered me. What sense is there on claiming that? I’m pretty sure Williamson follow the route most authors go with “God”

To my understanding and what make the most sense to me is, The True Presence is supreme creator of the greater omniverse and it sits on top of the hierarchy. The power it use to create multiverses and share the hands is The Source. The light is an emanation of the presence to create DC multiverse. Which make sense to me cuz the source is also stated to be the creator's power. Williamson just merged every origin into one to solve the contradiction throughout the years.

 

[Ramasugita11]

More like The Presence (True Divine Presence) brings his light to create multiverses. He brought his light to nothingness and it grew and became the overvoid. As a result, The Presence also made The Great Darkness becuz nothingness started sensing its own identity.
This panel stated that God brought the light

I'm not sure that Shadowland is outside the Overvoid, the dark dimension seems to exist in the multiverse, maybe he means to say that the god are an aspect of the presence.