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DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision

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Wait, so even though the Sphere of the Gods got buffed, those inside it, like True Form Darkseid, won't scale?
 
Elizio33 said:
No. New Gods shouldn't scale to the Sphere of the Gods.
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They should? They live in it. Sure, they can't completely destroy it but being ideas in the Sphere is warranted enough for being in that plane of existence.

We don't scale them because they can destroy the plane, we scale them because they are on that level of existence.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
They should? They live in it. Sure, they can't completely destroy it but being ideas in the Sphere is warranted enough for being in that plane of existence.

We don't scale them because they can destroy the plane, we scale them because they are on that level of existence.
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The thing is, Darkseid restoring his true form wasn't portrayed as a living idea or the platonic idea of evil during Infinite Frontier. Even in Death Metal, Darkseid had somehow reverted to his true form when he ruled the Final Crisis reality and he was not portrayed as such things. We should be very cautious about this given more recent information coming out after Final Crisis and Multiversity which apparently discarded the notion that the true forms of the New Gods. If anything, we can say that the New Gods being living ideas come from them being shaped by beliefs and imaginations of mortals through the Collective Unconscious.

Anyway, I would rather save this discussion for another thread and focus on the OP's proposal.
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
After reading the full proposal, the last things I want to say are:
  • I still would rather we replace the 11-D justifications from the Wildstorm Role-Playing Game Handbook with the 11-D comic scans I provided.
  • Many of the updated justifications in the OP for the higher planes beyond the Orrery include the term "qualitative superiority," but under the new Tiering System, "qualitative superiority" exclusively denotes an entire Outerverse level gap, and single +1 dimensional gaps must be recognized using the term "quantitative superiority" instead.
  • Though this isn't in the OP, I've seen mentions of the Hands being 1-A based on BDE Type 2, but that's outdated and actually just needs to be downgraded entirely to Type 1, since they don't have 1-A true state ratings under the proposed cosmology.
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Thank you for your help. Can you send the scans for 11-D again ?
 
Darkest Knight

Tier: 1-B. Likely Low 1-A

Attack Potency: Hyperverse level (After transplanting his brain into the body of a Batman from the Dark Multiverse with the power of Doctor Manhattan, the Darkest Knight gained these powers. Having reredirected the energies of every Crisis in history to him, the Darkest Knight became the most powerful God in the Multiverse, stronger than Perpetua and fought with her in a clash that raged across all facets of reality until her power nearly faded and killed her with the remains of the Source Wall). Likely Low Outerverse level (The Darkest Knight threatened to destroy The Hands with the Last 52 Multiverse, and The Hands admitted that Wonder Woman saved them after defeating him)

Doctor Manhattan

Tier: Unknown physically. 1-B. Likely Low 1-A with powers

Attack Potency: Unknown physically (His physical form is weak, however, due to lack of physical feats, we don't know how weak he is). Likely Hyperverse level (The Justice League with some of his powers stalemated Perpetua in a clash which burned out the Sun with Lex Luthor saying Wonder Woman would have won if she hadn't hesitated)
 
Elizio33 said:
Doctor Manhattan

Tier: Unknown physically. 1-B. Likely Low 1-A with powers

Attack Potency: Unknown physically (His physical form is weak, however, due to lack of physical feats, we don't know how weak he is). Likely Hyperverse level (The Justice League with some of his powers stalemated Perpetua in a clash which burned out the Sun with Lex Luthor saying Wonder Woman would have won if she hadn't hesitated)
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The Hyperversal justification also is meant to include the “likely Low 1-A?” I would just put it “possibly” Low 1-A unless somehow Doctor Manhattan is more powerful than Perpetua or Darkest Knight.
 
Elizio33 said:
Doctor Manhattan

Tier: Unknown physically. 1-B. Likely Low 1-A with powers

Attack Potency: Unknown physically (His physical form is weak, however, due to lack of physical feats, we don't know how weak he is). Likely Hyperverse level (The Justice League with some of his powers stalemated Perpetua in a clash which burned out the Sun with Lex Luthor saying Wonder Woman would have won if she hadn't hesitated)
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Instead of Hyperversal, shouldn't he be flat Low 1-A? The hands doesn't natually possess connective energy which is used for creation but they are given from The presence. Dr. Manhattan is state as a being brimming with connective energy. But since the hands are converted into connective energy after their tasks, it would not be wrong to say they are also connective energy beings? Not sure about that but Dr should definitely should scale to the hands. Don't you think?
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Hyperversal justification also is meant to include the “likely Low 1-A?” I would just put it “possibly” Low 1-A unless somehow Doctor Manhattan is more powerful than Perpetua or Darkest Knight.
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Perpetua has also the Likely 1-A in my proposal.
 
Weaver261 said:
Instead of Hyperversal, shouldn't he be flat Low 1-A? The hands doesn't natually possess connective energy which is used for creation but they are given from The presence. Dr. Manhattan is state as a being brimming with connective energy. But since the hands are converted into connective energy after their tasks, it would not be wrong to say they are also connective energy beings? Not sure about that but Dr should definitely should to the hands. Don't you think?
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Heh. I just think 1-B. Likely Low 1-A is better since they all scale to Perpetua who is way more powerful than the Ultra-Monitor but in some ways her nature and stature has diminished according to Scott Snyder although she has said that almost all of her former strength has returned to her in the comics.
 
Weaver261 said:
Instead of Hyperversal, shouldn't he be flat Low 1-A? The hands doesn't natually possess connective energy which is used for creation but they are given from The presence. Dr. Manhattan is state as a being brimming with connective energy. But since the hands are converted into connective energy after their tasks, it would not be wrong to say they are also connective energy beings? Not sure about that but Dr should definitely should scale to the hands. Don't you think?
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This is skewing a narrative just a tad bit. It was said that the power to create the Multiverse comes from the connective force of the Presence. Manhattan brimming with energy doesn't mean he naturally possesses the power or is making it from himself. It's not impossible to forge energy as we see Wonder Woman do it and is much easier to steal energy as we see Perpetua doing that. So unless there's a statement regarding Manhattan as a natural source of connective energy then I wouldn't say that gives him more power and stature than a Supercelestial like Perpetua.
 
Elizio33 said:
Heh. I just think 1-B. Likely Low 1-A is better since they all scale to Perpetua who is way more powerful than the Ultra-Monitor but in some ways her nature and stature has diminished according to Scott Snyder although she has said that almost all of her former strength has returned to her in the comics.
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That's because her position in the hierarchy was lost, not her powers.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
That's because her position in the hierarchy was lost, not her powers.
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Yes. She was the most feared being among The Hands and each Hand should be comparable to her full power individually, although she can't face them as a group unless she an army to assist her. Because her position in the hierarchy is lost, she can't have a Flat Low 1-A tier unlike The Hands.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Yes. She was the most feared being among The Hands and each Hand should be comparable to her full power individually, although she can't face them as a group unless she an army to assist her. That's why she can't have a Flat Low 1-A tier unlike The Hands.
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What I meant was due to the fact she didn't technically lose any of her powers. It would elude that she at full power isn't equal to her “superior.” That’s why I consider two classes in the Hands. The superior of Perpetua, the Judges of the Source. The creators like Perpetua, the Supercelestial. Hence, why is the higher rung of the cosmic ladder which I believe the Chrocniler is part of much higher than Perprtua, in power and hierarchy, even her hypothetical full power.

Had she ascended, that hypothetical scaerino I could see as being equal to the Judges, however, I’m pretty sure she's equal to her peer, not all of her kin, ie the Judges.
 
Also. Perpetua tore pieces from the Overvoid to create her three sons. This should definitely be used, not to upgrade her to 1-A but to strengthen the Likely Low 1-A Tier for her.
 
Elizio33 said:
Also. Perpetua tore pieces from the Overvoid to create her three sons. This should definitely be used, not to upgrade her to 1-A but to strengthen the Likely Low 1-A Tier for her.
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That's technically an anti-feat for the Overvoid. A lesser being that's not in the same level of existence manages to somehow take pieces off of it despite it not intentionally letting it happen.

Either Perpetua should be 1-A to keep Overvoid being 1-A or the Overvoid willing gave a piece of itself, but the narration said “she tore pieces of the Overvoid.”
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
That's technically an anti-feat for the Overvoid. A lesser being that's not in the same level of existence manages to somehow take pieces off of it despite it not intentionally letting it happen.

Either Perpetua should be 1-A to keep Overvoid being 1-A or the Overvoid willing gave a piece of itself, but the narration said “she tore pieces of the Overvoid.”
Click to expand...
The narration was: "The first children of a new realm of existence, rent from the Overvoid into flesh." This implies that she tore pieces from the Overvoid to create her sons. It is possible that the Overvoid let Perpetua do this in the same way that The Source let The Hands use its energies to create Multiverses.
 
Elizio33 said:
The narration was: "The first children of a new realm of existence, rent from the Overvoid into flesh." This implies that she tore pieces from the Overvoid to create her sons. It is possible that the Overvoid let Perpetua do this in the same way that The Source let The Hands use its energies to create Multiverses.
Click to expand...
The problem is that the Void is a location and not an actual being. Snyder treats the Overvoid as just a corrosive Void, unlike Morrsion's version of a large conscious Void.

This could be fixed with the notion of the Justice League Incarnate calling the Overvoid, once immaculate perfection of Light, but with no way of telling. I, rather, we don't dwell on too much hypothetical. Plus, her sons were her ideas, so I wouldn't count on the Overvoid just giving away something.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The problem is that the Void is a location and not an actual being. Snyder treats the Overvoid as just a corrosive Void, unlike Morrsion's version of a large conscious Void.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter since the Overvoid reverted back to a conscious void literally a year later with JLI #4. Just because Snyder didn't described the Overvoid as a conscious void in his stories doesn't necessarily discard the idea of the Overvoid being a living conscious void, unlike Joshua who actually rejected the idea that the Overvoid is synonymous with God.
 
Elizio33 said:
It doesn't matter since the Overvoid reverted back to a conscious void literally a year later with JLI #4. Just because Snyder didn't described the Overvoid as a conscious void in his stories doesn't necessarily discard the idea of the Overvoid being a living conscious void, unlike Joshua who actually rejected the idea that the Overvoid is synonymous with God.
Click to expand...
I suggest we don't use that feat because it's still unviable. There shouldn't be a logic for a quantitive being to interact with a qualitative being without it being intentional.

So we could say the Overvoid allowed it by giving its own self to Perpetua or we just don't use that feat. I'm in favor of not just not using that as a justification.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I suggest we don't use that feat because it's still unviable. There shouldn't be a logic for a quantitive being to interact with a qualitative being without it being intentional.

So we could say the Overvoid allowed it by giving its own self to Perpetua or we just don't use that feat. I'm in favor of not just not using that as a justification.
Click to expand...
It is possible that the Overvoid let Perpetua do this in the same way that The Source let The Hands use its energies to create Multiverses.
 
The most logical thing would be to say that the Overvoid allowed Perpetua. We don't even have a reason to think otherwise. Also, the Likely Low 1-A key should not be used alone for characters that are scale to Perpetua. This should only apply to the Hands.
 
LazyMortician said:
The most logical thing would be to say that the Overvoid allowed Perpetua. We don't even have a reason to think otherwise. Also, the Likely Low 1-A key should not be used alone for characters that are scale to Perpetua. This should only apply to the Hands.
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Personally, i think "1-B. Likely Low 1-A" or "1-B, possibly Low 1-A" is better for the reasons above. Perpetua is a Hand and The Hands exists outside the Source Wall, in the Overvoid and have quantitative superiority over any Multiverse of the Greater Omniverse, but are not ontologically superior to them.

Anyway. The flimsy white fabric behind the universe where universes are built and destroyed and then restarted mentioned by Psycho-Pirate in Infinite Frontier: Secret Files was clearly a reference to the "Great Light" mentioned in Morrison's Animal Man series, the manifestation of the absence behind reality where the ongoing process of creation and destruction takes place. The two descriptions are very similar and this should be applied to cosmology, although I don't think it would upgrade any realm.
 
Eseseso said:
Pretty sure TDK scales directly to the Hands via the latter admitting he could've killed them
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But it took him a while to kill Perpetua and he had to wait until her power was nearly gone to deliver the final blow, hence why "1-B. Likely Low 1-A" and the Darkest Knight also said that if Wonder Woman fought him pointlessly, The Hands would come and erase them from existence along with the Multiverse.
 
I mean, the Hands couldn't have had Low 1-A directly.

I actually don't know where Low 1-A comes from. Maybe they could have been 1-A because they dominated the energy, but that's not it either. I think they should just be 1-B, including the Hands.
 
LazyMortician said:
I mean, the Hands couldn't have had Low 1-A directly.

I actually don't know where Low 1-A comes from. Maybe they could have been 1-A because they dominated the energy, but that's not it either. I think they should just be 1-B, including the Hands.
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Low 1-A comes from BDE.

Type 2: Characters who exceed dimensionality, which may occur in the following ways:

1) As mentioned before, by a certain "excess of size," in which an object (Or collection of objects) is simply too large to be a dimensional space in the conventional sense. For instance, the Universe of Sets, which contains all mathematical set-structures, and therefore all spaces in which dimensions are defined, being larger than all such spaces. Characters of this nature are Low 1-A

The Hands are in a state of existence transcending any Multiverse of the Greater Omniverse and are much larger than them, perceiving them as bubbles, and Perpetua held her Multiverse in her hands which was almost completed. They live outside the Source Wall, the limit to thought, in the Overvoid outside time and space.

1-A for The Hands based on them wielding Connective Energy, including the Speed Force, could be possible, but i would prefer to keep the Low 1-A tier for them.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Low 1-A comes from BDE.

Type 2: Characters who exceed dimensionality, which may occur in the following ways:

1) As mentioned before, by a certain "excess of size," in which an object (Or collection of objects) is simply too large to be a dimensional space in the conventional sense. For instance, the Universe of Sets, which contains all mathematical set-structures, and therefore all spaces in which dimensions are defined, being larger than all such spaces. Characters of this nature are Low 1-A

The Hands are in a state of existence transcending any Multiverse of the Greater Omniverse and are much larger than them, perceiving them as bubbles, and Perpetua held her Multiverse in her hands which was almost completed. They live outside the Source Wall, the limit to thought, in the Overvoid outside time and space.

1-A for The Hands based on them wielding Connective Energy, including the Speed Force, could be possible, but i would prefer to keep the Low 1-A tier for them.
Click to expand...
Speaking of, what tier will the speed force be?
 
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