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DC Cosmology: Crisis Cosmology - Part 1

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Well again, clearly some of it still exists in the newer cosmology, as accepted, so how much of it? For example, the idea that Limbo is the edge of the DC narrative is something that still exists in the cosmology, they had to cross a void to get to Limbo, likely a reference to the white void seen in AM which was actually shown again pretty recently to that comic like a year earlier in 52.
 
I don't know what you're trying to say. Limbo is part of Crisis Cosmology and it's known that it comes from Animal Man, yes, but we don't have a separate "Animal Man Cosmology."
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Does the wiki not acknowledge that Comic Book Limbo is Animal Man cosmology?
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Comic Book Limbo is also Final Crisis Cosmology. This is the reason why I wanted a pre-2000 Morrison's Cosmology with Animal Man, Doom Patrol, JLA, ect.
 
Sure, but does anyone here remember why Animal Man even got split? Relevance, it was viewed that Animal Mans cosmology was no longer relevant to the cosmology, thus it was split, weird logic but i digress.

Now, if Limbo is clearly something still relevant and retained most of its contexts, why don't we scale it using what we know about it from previous comics?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Sure, but does anyone here remember why Animal Man even got split? Relevance, it was viewed that Animal Mans cosmology was no longer relevant to the cosmology, thus it was split, weird logic but i digress.

Now, if Limbo is clearly something still relevant and retained most of its contexts, why don't we scale it using what we know about it from previous comics?
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Because that was the only significant cosmological element from Animal Man that wasn't abandoned afterwards. However, this is off-topic so if you want to continue that discussion it should happen in the General thread.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Exactly, that's what I said. Scale it then
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Things outside Animal Man (such as the entire Crisis Cosmology) would not scale to the elements that are exclusive to Animal Man due to Limbo's inclusion in the later cosmology, if that's what you're suggesting. It has been proposed before and rejected for good reason.
 
Deagonx said:
Things outside Animal Man (such as the entire Crisis Cosmology) would not scale to the elements that are exclusive to Animal Man due to Limbo's inclusion in the later cosmology, if that's what you're suggesting. It has been proposed before and rejected for good reason.
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No, I am saying Limbos scaling still exists in the later cosmologies because Limbo itself still exists in later cosmologies.

Well then, what does it mean to be relevant in a later cosmology? I'd assume relevance basically works like this: you have a structure introduced in a comic from 1992, the structure regularly makes appearances throughout the years, and thus it is still relevant, and it's context is still relevant (because it wouldn't make sense to ignore its context if, as an author, that's what you are referencing). The argument cannot be made that Limbo was changed, because there isn't any explicit evidence that supports that, matter of fact, there is plenty of evidence that its still the same thing.

If this logic is deemed incorrect in any way, then how exactly does the split even function? Does it actually believe that all authors should go on an ad-nauseum reciting every single context of a structure in the cosmology? Clearly not I imagine, because Tynion for example, his characters scale to Morrison and Snyders cosmologies.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
No, I am saying Limbos scaling still exists in the later cosmologies because Limbo itself still exists in later cosmologies.
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Right, your point is fairly straightforward. I'm saying that this argument has been made and rejected before.

NHTkenshin2 said:
you have a structure introduced in a comic from 1992, the structure regularly makes appearances throughout the years, and thus it is still relevant, and it's context is still relevant (because it wouldn't make sense to ignore its context if, as an author, that's what you are referencing).
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I understand, you're saying that if Limbo itself still exists, everything it may have scaled to within Animal Man must also still exist in the current cosmology and thus, everything that scales to Limbo scales to those things too.

However, we don't consider that solid enough of a connection to warrant scaling, because the rest of those elements were completely abandoned, and Limbo being maintained does not mandate that the rest of those elements are also present if they haven't been referenced a single time in 30 years, and were only referenced in a single comic run.
 
Deagonx said:
However, we don't consider that solid enough of a connection to warrant scaling, because the rest of those elements were completely abandoned, and Limbo being maintained does not mandate that the rest of those elements are also present if they haven't been referenced a single time in 30 years, and were only referenced in a single comic run.
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I've never mentioned any other element from Animal Man though. If you acknowledge that Limbo is a structure from Animal Man and that it is clearly still relevant, then it can be scaled.
 
The yellow aliens (who show up after Infinite Crisis in 52), the writer, and the continuum (which was also referenced after Superman woke up in the cosmic armor)

That stuff is Limbo.
 
After Elizio33 has applied his new crisis cosmology revisions, they need to be properly applied to all affected characters. If I understood correctly, that took far too long after our previous DC Comics cosmology revision. 🙏
 
Thank you very much for helping out. 🙏🙂❤️

Is somebody willing to improve on the spelling and grammar afterwards?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizio33 How many layers into 1-B is the full cosmology?
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Well, beings from the "Unseen Council" are eight infinities above Low 2-C while the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are at least nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C. There could be one more infinity if anyone could provide good evidence that the Fifth Dimension is qualitatively superior to Hypertime in the future.
 
Elizio33 said:
Well, beings from the "Unseen Council" are eight infinities above Low 2-C while the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are at least nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C. Unless, someone can provide good proof that the Fifth Dimension is qualitatively superior to Hypertime in the future.
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Why "nine or ten"?
 
 
There are some elements of this I would like to change, now that I have the time to look over it more thoroughly.

Elizio33 said:
Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C given they have two infinities above Low 2-C.
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I would generally disagree with the notion that the Sphere has QS to the Orrery, given how routinely denizens of the Sphere and denizens of the Orrery demonstrated the ability to go freely back and forth and fight each other. I agree that the Sphere is higher in some capacity, but I do not believe it is infinitely so.

Elizio33 said:
Comic Book Limbo is Low 1-C, it hasn't showed any signs of qualitative superiority over the Sphere of the Gods despite being positioned higher on the map of the multiverse.

The Monitor Sphere is straight 1-C due to its qualitative superiority over Comic Book Limbo, adhering to three infinities above Low 2-C.
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I generally agree that the Monitor Sphere has QS over limbo, but I don't think Limbo is Low 1-C. When it is shown in Nil it's actually even smaller than a universe relative to the Thought Robot, so I would only place the Monitor Sphere a single level of QS above the Orrery.

Elizio33 said:
The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are 1-C due to its all-encompassing nature which includes the Monitor Sphere.
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The Other Place is explicitly the opposite of the Sphere of the Gods. It should be on the same tier as the Sphere.

Elizio33 said:
The Totality of Creation/Divine Continuum is High 1-C for having the Dark Multiverse and Hypertime which is a three-dimensional time dimension, adhering to six infinities above Low 2-C.

Hypertime is High 1-C for scaling to the Divine Continuum, but no one has been shown to actually scale to its true nature, thus feats of creation or destruction involving Hypertime timelines should be considered 2-A depending on the context.
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Elizio33 said:
Basically, Hypertime is a three-dimensional, time-based concept created by Grant Morrison and Mark Waid to allow all parts of DC's published stories to interact with each other. Morrison sometimes uses geometry as a metaphor to discuss Hypertime, using concepts such as "plane time" and "cube time". This is shown in The Return of Bruce Wayne and expanded upon in an interview, treating it as a three-dimensional concept, its basis being the "time point" containing all possibilities.

By simple geometry, the time point extent to create the "line time" or "line space a" representing the linear timeline from beginning to end. Time also extends laterally, so there is the "plane time" or "space b", an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating line times. The perpendicular of plane time is "cube time" which views the inhabitants of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective.
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Per our rules on author statements, we can't scale things based on what authors have said if it hasn't been shown in the comics. I don't believe plane time or cube time have ever been officially connected to Hypertime and those concepts seems to only be referenced in that single comic. In practice Hypertime is just treated as a collection of infinite timelines, and I believe that is how we should scale it.

Elizio33 said:
The Fifth Dimension is High 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum, adhering to a higher degree of said tier, but it has not been proven to be qualitatively superior to Hypertime.

The Sixth Dimension is High 1-C for existing at the top of Divine Continuum and being the highest plane of existence, adhering to seven infinities above Low 2-C.

Beings from the Unseen Council are 1-B for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension, adhering to eight infinities above Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
The Sixth Dimension should not be treated as having QS to the Fifth Dimension, because Mxy was able to give Superman enough energy to allow him to reach the Sixth Dimension once the Source Wall was down.

The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.

Elizio33 said:
The Light of Creation is 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything in the cosmology, including the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, adhering to nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C.

The Great Darkness is 1-B for having preceded and been the rival force of the Light of Creation.
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I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite.

With that said, I would rework the final segment to look like this:

Universal feats range from 3-A to Low 2-C whether the feat involves an entire space-time continuum or simply involves all matter in the universe.

Multiversal feats really depend on the context given in the comics and range from 2-C to 2-A, whether the feat involves all fifty-two universes of the Orrery or infinite universes or timelines.

Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Antimatter Universe are higher degree of Low 2-C than regular positive matter universes.

Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Orrery and the Bleed are Low 1-C given the fifth-dimensional level contained within.

Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C, due to encompassing the Orrery

The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are also Low 1-C due to being the opposite of the Sphere and Orrery

The Monitor Sphere is Low 1-C due to its qualitative superiority over the Orrery, adhering to two infinities above Low 2-C.

Hypertime is Low 1-C for scaling to the Divine Continuum/Totality of Creation, but no one has been shown to actually scale to its true nature, thus feats of creation or destruction involving Hypertime timelines should be considered 2-A depending on the context.

The Fifth Dimension is Low 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Orrery, and its inhabitants demonstrating power comparable to the gods of the Sphere.

The Sixth Dimension is Low 1-C for existing at the top of Divine Continuum and being the highest plane of existence

Beings from the Unseen Council are Low 1-C for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, equal to Perpetua at her full might.

The Light of Creation is Low 1-C for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything in the cosmology, including the various multiverses in the Omniverse, as well as creating the Hands.

The Great Darkness is Low 1-C for having preceded and been the rival force of the Light of Creation.
Click to expand...
 
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Deagonx said:
The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.
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This is the first I have to disagree with. The Hands or, more so, the Judges are much superior to the Multiverse which contains the 6th Dimension. We've seen Perpetua's limits as opposed to the Hands who are her “superior” and could stripe her and everything in her Creation.
Deagonx said:
I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite. Though I don't feel too strongly about this that I'd make a big fuss of it.
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The Great Darkness is much above anything by at least one degree of infinity. The Presence is the same as that extent. Though it doesn't change the tiering, I would regard those two as QS over the Hands.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
This is the first I have to disagree with. The Hands or, more so, the Judges are much superior to the Multiverse which contains the 6th Dimension. We've seen Perpetua's limits as opposed to the Hands who are her “superior” and could stripe her and everything in her Creation.
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The hands as a collective could do so, but the hands were explicitly Supercelestials, and Perpetua is a Supercelestial, even to the point of referring to them as brothers and sisters if I remember correctly. It's not logical for her to be a member of a species if the entire rest of the species is infinitely more powerful than her. She should be on the same level as them.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Great Darkness is much above anything by at least one degree of infinity. The Presence is the same as that extent. Though it doesn't change the tiering, I would regard those two as QS over the Hands.
Click to expand...
The scaling I have proposed recognizes them as a degree of infinity above the hands, though I do believe the evidence for it is somewhat weak.
 
Deagonx said:
The hands as a collective could do so, but the hands were explicitly Supercelestials, and Perpetua is a Supercelestial, even to the point of referring to them as brothers and sisters if I remember correctly. It's not logical for her to be a member of a species if the entire rest of the species is infinitely more powerful than her. She should be on the same level as them.
Click to expand...
They're all from the same place so considering them as siblings is not wrong. Angels regard Archangels as their brothers despite being at different levels of power. We've seen that she feared her siblings, who come in groups. It doesn't state that she is equal to them, only that she is like them and some Hands don’t create and that's possibly because they already ascended to a higher level.

Chrocniler has mentioned of a hierarchy that's much above the hierarchy of the Multiverse. In the interview with Scott Snyder, the “Council” goes up until the Presence/Source. Seeing Perpetua's feats, she is not on her brethren's level, and the story has sort of made that clear.

Deagonx said:
The scaling I have proposed recognizes them as a degree of infinity above the hands, though I do believe the evidence for it is somewhat weak.
Click to expand...
It's just common sense and logic. There's not too much of a reason for concrete evidence.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
the story has sort of made that clear.
Click to expand...
No it didn't. Perpetua's entire goal was to fend off her siblings at some point. The whole narrative sort of lacks any punch if we take the approach that literally any single one of the hands was so impossibly above Perpetua that she never would've had any chance whatsoever.

It was also said that Perpetua was the most feared out of all of her brothers and sisters across the greater multiverse, so again, this is impossible.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
It's just common sense and logic. There's not too much of a reason for concrete evidence.
Click to expand...
Common sense just means one's personal intuition, it isn't valid evidence. Logic is something we can apply to information about characters, so we would have to examine the logic involved and what information it is being applied to in order to see if it was a valid conclusion.

But, again, my scaling incorporates them as having QS, so I am not sure what point there is in arguing about it.
 
Deagonx said:
There are some elements of this I would like to change, now that I have the time to look over it more thoroughly.


I would generally disagree with the notion that the Sphere has QS to the Orrery, given how routinely denizens of the Sphere and denizens of the Orrery demonstrated the ability to go freely back and forth and fight each other. I agree that the Sphere is higher in some capacity, but I do not believe it is infinitely so.


I generally agree that the Monitor Sphere has QS over limbo, but I don't think Limbo is Low 1-C. When it is shown in Nil it's actually even smaller than a universe relative to the Thought Robot, so I would only place the Monitor Sphere a single level of QS above the Orrery.


The Other Place is explicitly the opposite of the Sphere of the Gods. It should be on the same tier as the Sphere.



Per our rules on author statements, we can't scale things based on what authors have said if it hasn't been shown in the comics. I don't believe plane time or cube time have ever been officially connected to Hypertime and those concepts seems to only be referenced in that single comic. In practice Hypertime is just treated as a collection of infinite timelines, and I believe that is how we should scale it.


The Sixth Dimension should not be treated as having QS to the Fifth Dimension, because Mxy was able to give Superman enough energy to allow him to reach the Sixth Dimension once the Source Wall was down.

The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.


I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite. Though I don't feel too strongly about this that I'd make a big fuss of it.

With that said, I would rework the final segment to look like this:
Click to expand...
im so confused
The High 1-C, 1-B parts have just been accepted and added to the cosmology page
so you would have to make a downgrade thread for this..
 
Deagonx said:
No it didn't. Perpetua's entire goal was to fend off her siblings at some point. The whole narrative sort of lacks any punch if we take the approach that literally any single one of the hands was so impossibly above Perpetua that she never would've had any chance whatsoever.

It was also said that Perpetua was the most feared out of all of her brothers and sisters across the greater multiverse, so again, this is impossible.
Click to expand...
She never stood a chance, she was bidding to do something rather than go down without a fight and then nothing. It's the same logic as Lucifer rebelling against someone who's unbelievably more powerful than him, but he tried either way despite the result not favoring him. Perpetua alone by herself was nothing and had to resort to making an army as being conduit of Crisis Energy to potentially stand a chance. Yet, they sent the Raptor that easily pinned her, her powers, and her entire army without too much of an issue.

Unlike, her, her siblings aren't known to be wrathful or considered a rebel who betrayed the source of their power. She's feared because she doesn't follow the rules like the others and even then the story depicts her brethren as her superior to the point even Alpheus had to be careful to not inquire about the Judges about the creation of his Multiverse.
Deagonx said:
Common sense just means one's personal intuition, it isn't valid evidence. Logic is something we can apply to information about characters, so we would have to examine the logic involved and what information it is being applied to in order to see if it was a valid conclusion.

But, again, my scaling incorporates them as having QS, so I am not sure what point there is in arguing about it.
Click to expand...
That's the point. You dwelled so much on the nuances of something that you forget sometimes we go by general belief or at least what the comic would atone to rather than flat-out admit they weren't “QS” over the Hands.

Also, you claim the evidence was weak. I was proposing that isn't really relevant. So I'm well aware of your claim that you do agree they are QS over the Hands.
 
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