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DC Cosmology: Crisis Cosmology - Part 1

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Ramasugita11 said:
In my opinion, the 4th dimension is expressed as a metaphysical, hypertime part of time in the abstract. The third dimension is explained as materials, the materials dimension means the physical dimension, Because materials also exist in higher dimensions, not just the 3rd dimension, this means that it is normal for the physical 5th dimension to be in the 3rd dimension/materials dimension.
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Well, if you can prove that the Fifth Dimension is actually qualitatively superior to Hypertime, I'll be open to upgrading it for seven infinities above Low 2-C, but unless I'm mistaken, the Fifth Dimension has not shown signs of qualitative superiority over Hypertime, it simply exists above it.
 
Elizio33 said:
Well, if you can prove that the Fifth Dimension is actually qualitatively superior to Hypertime, I'll be open to upgrading it for seven infinities above Low 2-C, but unless I'm mistaken, the Fifth Dimension has not shown signs of qualitative superiority over Hypertime, it simply exists above it.
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•Hypertime = Omniverse
Omniverse is a collection of multiverses, the map itself is the known omniverse, 1 Earth has infinite universes[multiverse] and omniverse has infinite variants of Earths.
Each earth has its own monitor sphere, as the original monitor has been split into multiple aspects for each multiverse[earth] Here and Here.
That's why there are so many nil monitors [Here]
And hypertime is the way to infinite variants of earths [Here].

•4th Dimension is Metaphysical plane, so hypertime is Abstract is not a physical dimension [Here] and Hypertime It is everywhere throughout the 4-Dimension cosmology which is explained as a metaphysical realm, because omniverse = hypertime.
The 4th dimension is metaphysical and the 5th dimension is beyond it, beyond materials as the 3rd dimension and time is 4th dimension [Here] and [Here]

That's the reason why the imps are able to control hypertime/time
 
Elizio33 said:
Due to their existence outside of the material realms, these realms are beyond our physics-based conception of the spatiotemporal multiverse. Many DC writers like to treat them collectively as "Platonic Realms" or as "Fictions". Note that some inhabitants of these Metaphysical Realms, like some of the Sphere of the Gods, such as the New Gods, do not scale to their realms, they have a 4-D nature compared to the 3-D nature of the inhabitants of the Orrery of Worlds, but other may scale higher.
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This is false, the scan explicitly calls this "time-grammer" it's language that describes time, the issue in question was taking place in the material world, and these were not their abstract [phantom] forms. Gods interact with the material world only using forms and avatars. So this would be calling some of their manifestations 4-D, not their Godheads.

Edit: matter of fact, it isnt even calling the Gods anything, its simply saying that they preformed actions in 4-dimensions.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
This is false, the scan explicitly calls this "time-grammer" it's language that describes time, the issue in question was taking place in the material world, and these were not their abstract [phantom] forms. Gods interact with the material world only using forms and avatars. So this would be calling some of their manifestations 4-D, not their Godheads.

Edit: matter of fact, it isnt even calling the Gods anything, its simply saying that they preformed actions in 4-dimensions.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification, although I still don't think their Godheads should scale to the Sphere of the Gods. Maybe scaling them to the Pre-Crisis New Gods or just the Unknown Tier ?
 
I just forgot about the Origins of Creation for Crisis Cosmology, my bad!

Anyway, here it is:

Before Creation, it was said that there was only a Great Darkness; a single black infinitude where nothing and everything were the same thing. From the darkness came a burning light. As the light grew, everything was no longer nothing and the darkness screamed, causing an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the light. With the birth of the Source from the dark, forces danced with each other like threads on destiny's loom, giving birth to the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Order.
From the Source came the raw materials of a multiverse which the Source entrusted to Perpetua to shape into a functioning multiverse in the Overvoid. Perpetua created her children -- the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger -- to manage the different aspects of her new reality. At this point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was meant to die and allow her essence to return to the Source but she refused and defied her function. She began experimenting on the mortals at the center of her multiverse, transforming them into the Apex Predators, planning to create an army of immortal beings to repel anything the Source would send to force her to give up her life and control over reality. Her plans were thwarted by her children who alerted the Judges of the Source. Their response was to send the Cosmic Raptor who sealed Perpetua in a wall that would later become known as the Source Wall, also restarting her multiverse from the beginning of time.
Billions of years after Perpetua's defeat, Maltusian scientist Krona makes a breakthrough and attempts to discover the origins of creation. His tampering unintentionally unleashed an infinite multiverse of infinite universes.
Edit: @Williams249 your proposal for the Speed Force Wall would be considered, as for @NHTkenshin2's about the New Gods, but their tiers would be covered in another thread.
 
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Everything looks good to me.

Elizio33 said:
From the tampering of Krona were born an infinite multiverse of infinite universes.
Click to expand...
Link looks broken tho and it's same as the former. Also, I always thought the Hands restarted the multiverse and Krona's just don't fit the storyline, except we assume when the multiverse was restarted... It was a singular universe?

Elizio33 said:
Edit: @Williams249 your proposal for the Speed Force Wall would be considered
Click to expand...
Alright, great. Happy to help
 
Williams249 said:
Everything looks good to me.


Link looks broken tho and it's same as the former. Also, I always thought the Hands restarted the multiverse and Krona's just don't fit the storyline, except we assume when the multiverse was restarted... It was a singular universe?


Alright, great. Happy to help
Click to expand...
Thanks, i fixed the link. In Death Metal, Krona's story is acknowledged but it also doesn't mention that his tampering restarted the multiverse or that it created the positive matter multiverse and antimatter universe.
 
Elizio33 said:
Thanks, i fixed the link. In Death Metal, Krona's story is acknowledged but it also doesn't mention that his tampering restarted the multiverse or that it created the positive matter multiverse and antimatter universe.
Click to expand...
It's okay. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Krona's story is asymmetrical with the Hands'. Although, originally Krona's tampering did create the anti-matter universe and positive matter universe. Which leaves the Dark Multiverse stated to be created by humans fears in Dark Knights: Metal. But it does leave an obvious problem. It was a singular universe before the segregation, if you will. The singular universe thingy just don't apply, as it was always a multiverse created by Perpetua and restarted by the Hands. Funnily, Williamson in Dark Crisis references the original "creation story" from COIE, which is very much related to Krona's. Point is, I feel Krona's story and the Hands' Isn't just compatible despite references from Snyder and Williamson's cosmology.
 
Williams249 said:
It's okay. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Krona's story is asymmetrical with the Hands'. Although, originally Krona's tampering did create the anti-matter universe and positive matter universe. Which leaves the Dark Multiverse stated to be created by humans fears in Dark Knights: Metal. But it does leave an obvious problem. It was a singular universe before the segregation, if you will. The singular universe thingy just don't apply, as it was always a multiverse created by Perpetua and restarted by the Hands. Funnily, Williamson in Dark Crisis references the original "creation story" from COIE, which is very much related to Krona's. Point is, I feel Krona's story and the Hands' Isn't just compatible despite references from Snyder and Williamson's cosmology.
Click to expand...
Even with Williamson's cosmology, although inspired by Marv Wolfman, Williamson's proposed origins of creation present a contradiction. When the darkness cried out in response to the growth of light, a multiverse was born, not a single universe like Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. However, the terms "universe, "multiverse", and "omniverse" are often used interchangeably in some stories...
 
Williams249 said:
It's okay. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Krona's story is asymmetrical with the Hands'. Although, originally Krona's tampering did create the anti-matter universe and positive matter universe. Which leaves the Dark Multiverse stated to be created by humans fears in Dark Knights: Metal. But it does leave an obvious problem. It was a singular universe before the segregation, if you will. The singular universe thingy just don't apply, as it was always a multiverse created by Perpetua and restarted by the Hands. Funnily, Williamson in Dark Crisis references the original "creation story" from COIE, which is very much related to Krona's. Point is, I feel Krona's story and the Hands' Isn't just compatible despite references from Snyder and Williamson's cosmology.
Click to expand...
If you want, I can explain dc cosmology, explain about all the things that are canon in dcu, I'll make a thread, if anyone wants it. If not then next month
 
Elizio33 said:
Even with Williamson's cosmology, although inspired by Marv Wolfman, Williamson's proposed origins of creation present a contradiction. When the darkness cried out in response to the growth of light, a multiverse was born, not a single universe like Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. However, the terms "universe, "multiverse", and "omniverse" are often used interchangeably in some stories...
Click to expand...
It's a play on words, he just briefly explained the events, the point is 1 universe has infinite possibilities which becomes a multiverse.

Omniverse is the place where all the multiverses are collected, the greater omniverse is the overvoid, because initially the omniverse and the sixth dimension did not have a source wall as a separation. But finally in the dark crisis we know that the greater omniverse is actually the great darkness
 
Elizio33 said:
Even with Williamson's cosmology, although inspired by Marv Wolfman, Williamson's proposed origins of creation present a contradiction. When the darkness cried out in response to the growth of light, a multiverse was born, not a single universe like Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. However, the terms "universe, "multiverse", and "omniverse" are often used interchangeably in some stories...
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree the interchangeability of these terms, but they are pretty specific especially in a 'creation story' context. I mean Krona's story indicates a singular universe being split into (infinite) multiverses. Won't make sense if they were same in this case, as there's a direct comparison. Same with the Hands, the multiverse was essentially the Multiversity Map. Anyway, it seems there's discrepancy between the creation story in CoIE (still used by Williamson) and Snyder's. Do you plan on reconciling or simply shaving it off, because it really isn't that significant?
 
Ramasugita11 said:
It's a play on words, he just briefly explained the events, the point is 1 universe has infinite possibilities which becomes a multiverse.

Omniverse is the place where all the multiverses are collected, the greater omniverse is the overvoid, because initially the omniverse and the sixth dimension did not have a source wall as a separation. But finally in the dark crisis we know that the greater omniverse is actually the great darkness
Click to expand...
I don't quite agree. The Greater Omniverse ≠ The Great Darkness. Although, it was stated multiple times it's beyond the multiverse in Dark Crisis. OP pretty clear what the Greater Omniverse is.
 
Williams249 said:
Yeah, I agree the interchangeability of these terms, but they are pretty specific especially in a 'creation story' context. I mean Krona's story indicates a singular universe being split into (infinite) multiverses. Won't make sense if they were same in this case, as there's a direct comparison. Same with the Hands, the multiverse was essentially the Multiversity Map. Anyway, it seems there's discrepancy between the creation story in CoIE (still used by Williamson) and Snyder's. Do you plan on reconciling or simply shaving it off, because it really isn't that significant?
Click to expand...
Personally, I think it's best to avoid trying to reconcile them (especially using headcanon) since Scott Snyder acknowledged Krona's experiment but didn't mention that his experiment was behind the creation of the positive matter multiverse and the antimatter universe.
 
Elizio33 said:
Personally, I think it's best to avoid trying to reconcile them (especially using headcanon) since Scott Snyder acknowledged Krona's experiment but didn't mention that his experiment was behind the creation of the positive matter multiverse and the antimatter universe.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. I agree
 
Williams249 said:
It's okay. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Krona's story is asymmetrical with the Hands'. Although, originally Krona's tampering did create the anti-matter universe and positive matter universe. Which leaves the Dark Multiverse stated to be created by humans fears in Dark Knights: Metal. But it does leave an obvious problem. It was a singular universe before the segregation, if you will. The singular universe thingy just don't apply, as it was always a multiverse created by Perpetua and restarted by the Hands. Funnily, Williamson in Dark Crisis references the original "creation story" from COIE, which is very much related to Krona's. Point is, I feel Krona's story and the Hands' Isn't just compatible despite references from Snyder and Williamson's cosmology.
Click to expand...
The multiverse and universe are the same in DC Comics.
We know that Perpetua didn't just create one universe, that's just a figure of speech.
There is a multiverse in the Krona era Here and Here
True form antimonitor exist in 6th dimension, If you think anti-monitor is a creation of krona, you are wrong because anti-monitor has died and turned on many times
 
Ramasugita11 said:
The multiverse and universe are the same in DC Comics.
We know that Perpetua didn't just create one universe, that's just a figure of speech.
There is a multiverse in the Krona era Here and Here
True form antimonitor exist in 6th dimension, If you think anti-monitor is a creation of krona, you are wrong because anti-monitor has died and turned on many times
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding. I never stated or implied Perpetua creating a singular universe, & no, interchangeability isn't applicable in this context as we're dealing with discrepancies to begin with. Anyway, both scans linked to prove Krona era having a multiverse, simply happened AFTER Krona's actions splintered a universe into an infinite multiverse. Btw, according to the CoIE story, Monitor and Anti Monitor were created at that point and by Snyder's, every death whatsoever in the mortal plane was reincarnated in the Sixth Dimension.
 
Elizio33 said:
@Williams249 I implemented your proposal for the Speed Force Wall on the op, let me know what you think
Click to expand...
It looks alright. Got me thinking. Do you plan on implementing and of course, tiering the Forces of Creation? I think it'll be good since characters do scale to them e.g The Flash.
 
Williams249 said:
Link broken


Cool. Might wanna add this though. Still Force was included and a bit of context..
Click to expand...
Just want to say the speed force is everywhere [Here] and the map of the multiverse is just a rough idea, it's not really like that. Just creating those physical and meta-physical boundaries is separate, Each multiverse has its own metaphysics and when the Earth has infinite universes[multiverse], then each earth has a different variant from the other earths, If you read the multiversity comics, the Sandman universe is also in the DC story, the cosmology cannot be separated
•sandman neil gaiman Is part of dcu but on a different earth [Here]

Multiversity tells about the existence of a real world on another earth but a fictional one on his own earth [Here ]

Sorry, I'll explain again. 1 Earth = infinite universes [ multiverse ], 1 EARTH is different from other Earths, omniverse is a collection of different Earths. The variety of earth and other earth is different, The story is also different
 
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Ramasugita11 said:
Just want to say the speed force is everywhere [Here] and the map of the multiverse is just a rough idea, it's not really like that. Just creating those physical and meta-physical boundaries is separate, Each multiverse has its own metaphysics and when the Earth has infinite universes[multiverse], then each earth has a different variant from the other earths, If you read the multiversity comics, the Sandman universe is also in the DC story, the cosmology cannot be separated
•sandman neil gaiman Is part of dcu but on a different earth [Here]

Multiversity tells about the existence of a real world on another earth but a fictional one on his own earth [Here ]

Sorry, I'll explain again. 1 Earth = infinite universes [ multiverse ], 1 EARTH is different from other Earths, omniverse is a collection of different Earths. The variety of earth and other earth is different, The story is also different
Click to expand...
Okay, cool. Can you elaborate on the last paragraph though? Also, Sandman and DC continuities don't blend quite well.
 
Williams249 said:
Happy to help!
Click to expand...
Hypertime and omniverse are equivalent.
Omniverse has variants of Earths [ multiverse ]. That's why the multiverse, dark multiverse and sphere of the gods are equivalent, because they have infinite variants of earths.
Here
That's how they make all DCU stories canon, Lucifer has 2 versions of the story, where Lucifer 2018 and Lucifer 2000. This means that these 2 multiverse variants are on different Earths.

Yahweh is not the creator of dc, he is simply an archetypal being formed by the human mind. They are just in the sphere of the gods and Perpetua is their creator

Hypertime is a path to another version of Earth/multiverse which makes all DC stories canon, cartoons, Lego and comics are all canon if published for a DC storyline. [Here]
 
It is shocking that the Presence is still this misinterpreted on this site, Kuuzo definitely had it all completely right but he got banned.
 
Oh no Kuuzo sucked as a person, but he nailed the presence completely. I might make a thread regarding the presence in a couple months from now.
 
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Ramasugita11 said:
Hypertime and omniverse are equivalent.
Omniverse has variants of Earths [ multiverse ]. That's why the multiverse, dark multiverse and sphere of the gods are equivalent, because they have infinite variants of earths.
Here
That's how they make all DCU stories canon, Lucifer has 2 versions of the story, where Lucifer 2018 and Lucifer 2000. This means that these 2 multiverse variants are on different Earths.

Yahweh is not the creator of dc, he is simply an archetypal being formed by the human mind. They are just in the sphere of the gods and Perpetua is their creator

Hypertime is a path to another version of Earth/multiverse which makes all DC stories canon, cartoons, Lego and comics are all canon if published for a DC storyline. [Here]
Click to expand...
Alright. I've my reservations for the most part. Just to be clear, Yahweh here, is the Abrahamic God and not the Presence, yeah?
 
Williams249 said:
Alright. I've my reservations for the most part. Just to be clear, Yahweh here, is the Abrahamic God and not the Presence, yeah?
Click to expand...
Yup, Feel free if you want to say that Yahweh is the avatar of the true form of presence, because the source also has a humanoid form, not 100% power. Because the true form is the over-void itself.

In my thread I answered someone's question who said the endless was created by Yahweh but in fact it wasn't, The external force is what created Yahweh, which comes from human beliefs which created different gods, Yahweh is not the only god in the sphere of the gods
Post in thread 'DC upgrade to H1B, L1A, 1A' https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-to-h1b-l1a-1a.162214/post-6252116
 
Another proof, if gods are born in the dreaming
SNDUNI_1_1.jpg
 
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