DC Comics herald-level characters upgrade discussion - Part 2

[Antvasima]

And I already explained that these are two separate cosmologies, and thus not relevant at all.

This is correct, yes. See here please: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Cosmology

 

[Antvasima]

Will work on this sandbox. I will give the updates, after I finish it.

Thank you greatly. Your help is extremely appreciated.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And I already explained that these are two separate cosmologies, and thus not relevant at all.

Snyder referenced Vertigo The Green. They should be the same, no?

Because if not, that's 100% an issue in the way you separated the cosmologies ngl. But that talk is derailing, so anyways.

 

[Deagonx]

Snyder referenced Vertigo The Green. They should be the same, no?

Because if not, that's 100% an issue in the way you separated the cosmologies ngl. But that talk is derailing, so anyways.

No, because referencing an storyline and treating something identically to that storyline is not a gurantee. But you're right, this subject is not on topic. The important thing is that Swamp Thing and the Green in Snyder's Death Metal event do not scale at all to how they were written in the 80s/90s in the Vertigo storylines. He is, for all intents and purposes, fairly similar to Wonder Woman and Superman and there's no reason to believe he is tier 2. In Snyder's cosmology, the very highest beings in the multiverse, who literally created it, walk around at 2-C when they are in the universe. Swamp Thing is like an ant to them, so is Superman for that matter.

We've gotten pretty far off track with this Swamp Thing bit, though.

 

[LordTracer]

You have not been polite and reasonable in this thread.

In case you’ve forgotten, Ant, that’s partially because you were making unfounded accusations of bias against not only Armor, but a lot of us. Now, I’m not saying that’s an excuse to blow up or anything, but his previous anger is understandable.

 

[Antvasima]

In case you’ve forgotten, Ant, that’s partially because you were making unfounded accusations of bias against not only Armor, but a lot of us. Now, I’m not saying that’s an excuse to blow up or anything, but his previous anger is understandable.

Well, towards a few of you, and given the history of how dead-set dedicated some of you have been in pushing through these and other Marvel Comics and DC Comics upgrades through relentless and completely unreasonable attack attack attack pile-ons, and given that a large part of our community as a whole seems driven by dedication to favouritism rather than accuracy for different verses, and my long experience of (now banned) DC Comics and Marvel Comics fans being the most biased wankers or literally criminal toxic trolls that I have ever encountered during my years trying to manage this community, it isn't like this was intended as an anywhere remotely near severe insult, just honesty regarding my unavoidable experience and exasperation with having to continuously deal with these situations of completely unreliable feats and chain-scaling used to push insanely unreliable tiers, over and over and over during the last 9 years.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I'd like to point out one of these anti-feats is SEVERELY out of context:


This one: Superman passes out after stopping a ship that would destroy a continent. Action Comics 902

Well, if you read the storyline you'd see: Superman was already weakened from being tortured and repeatedly blasted by Lex Luthor with the power of the Zone Child before he even got to where Doomslayer was. Action Comics #900. He even passes out before he even fights Doomslayer.

Then he gets into another fight with the Doomsdays and gets beaten up by Doomslayer AGAIN immediately before performing this feat. Action Comics 901-902.

Using that as an anti-feat when he's already clearly incredibly weakened feels....disingenuous to me. The comic makes a whole spectacle of showing him (and the other Kryptonians to a lesser extent, who had been fighting Doomsdays for three issues) are severely weakened, beaten up and tired by this point.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think you need to read the rules regarding secondary canon a bit more clearly brother.

This many number of cosmic feats, they contradict the guidebook.

And most if not all of those "Cosmic feats" are being questioned if there were any real cosmic feats to begin with. Not to mention the High 3-A feat from Flash is still only via a suicide attack that otherwise uses High 5-A statements otherwise when being used against Green Lanterns and such. Or Superman's version that knocked himself out and required an amp of spending 15 minutes in the core of the sun only had a High 4-C statement iirc.

Most of the "Tier 2" stuff brought up are repeating the same things made by the likes of Soldier of Krypton and his various socks who in turn repeated the same claims made by Tonathan in which they were just some throwaway one-liners that either get disproven or turn out to be flukes once the next few pages of the same comics are read.

 

[Deagonx]

I sympathize greatly with Ant's concerns, particularly this:

given that a large part of our community as a whole seems driven by dedication to favouritism rather than accuracy for different verses

There is a considerable gap between a difference in opinion and perspective, and an argument that appears to be wielded as a form of rhetorical gymnastics in complete disregard for reasonability, just to get characters to tiers they very clearly aren't as a result of it being possible to argue for it in a specific framework. It borders on shocking that anyone who has read a considerable amount of Post-Crisis storylines would walk away with the impression that the destruction of a galaxy is something members of the Justice League could accomplish with a flick of their pinky, which is what the suggested tiers very concretely imply.

Even if we could reach the conclusion that one or two of these feats hold water (though most of them clearly do not), I can't imagine that the more reasonable conclusion is that Superman is actually Tier 2 and the various high-exertion battles he's been in or feats he's performed that are infinitesimally below that should be handwaved.

In addition to the massive gap between the current tier and the tier being suggested. Post-Crisis Heralds are all Tier 4 based on a single character-statement, not feat, that arguably should never have been enough for an upgrade. If these characters are truly meant to be Tier 2, why the shocking absence across 30 years of stories ever showing them doing an actual solar system level feat or galaxy level feat?

The simple answer is because they clearly aren't that powerful, that's not how they were written and not how they were meant to be understood. There are numerous statements and feats showing that planetary accomplishments are surprising, awe-inspiring, unbelievable, to a group of characters who can apparently casually galaxy-bust with .001% of their strength.

 

[KLOL506]

And most if not all of those "Cosmic feats" are being questioned if there were any real cosmic feats to begin with. Not to mention the High 3-A feat from Flash is still only via a suicide attack that otherwise uses High 5-A statements otherwise when being used against Green Lanterns and such. Or Superman's version that knocked himself out and required an amp of spending 15 minutes in the core of the sun only had a High 4-C statement iirc.

Most of the "Tier 2" stuff brought up are repeating the same things made by the likes of Soldier of Krypton and his various socks who in turn repeated the same claims made by Tonathan in which they were just some throwaway one-liners that either get disproven or turn out to be flukes once the next few pages of the same comics are read.

All of which have been answered by Emirp at large, he is making another counter response to all these arguments as we speak.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'd like to point out one of these anti-feats is SEVERELY out of context:


This one: Superman passes out after stopping a ship that would destroy a continent. Action Comics 902

Well, if you read the storyline you'd see: Superman was already weakened from being tortured and repeatedly blasted by Lex Luthor with the power of the Zone Child before he even got to where Doomslayer was. Action Comics #900. He even passes out before he even fights Doomslayer.

Then he gets into another fight with the Doomsdays and gets beaten up by Doomslayer AGAIN immediately before performing this feat. Action Comics 901-902.

Using that as an anti-feat when he's already clearly incredibly weakened feels....disingenuous to me. The comic makes a whole spectacle of showing him (and the other Kryptonians to a lesser extent, who had been fighting Doomsdays for three issues) are severely weakened, beaten up and tired by this point.

To be noted, he received permission from LordTracer here

 

[LordTracer]

and given the history of how dead-set dedicated some of you have been in pushing through these and other Marvel Comics and DC Comics upgrades through relentless and completely unreasonable attack attack attack pile-ons

… at what point have any of us done this?

it isn't like this was intended as an anywhere remotely near severe insult, just unavoidable experience and exasperation with having to continuously deal with these situations of completely unreliable feats and chain-scaling used to push insanely unreliable tiers, over and over and over during the last 9 years.

And you know what? I get being exasperated over things like that, but the things you’re talking about we’re done by regular users, so why are you accusing your staff of bias and favoritism? All that serves to do is belittle us and make us less willing to help out with other things. That’s part of the reason that people like Confluctor left.

 

[KingTempest]

Can all of yall PLEASE continue with the thread without bashing favoritisms and shit?

Let's not turn this into another "comic opinion bashing" thread like every single one I enter. Yall are annoying with this, just go back and forth

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima stop with this whole “people are arguing favoritism for their verse rather than accuracy” claims, we can say that same thing to your side on how you’re playing favorites on what feats are allowed and what isn’t. If you think these feats aren’t legit, prove that they aren’t legit feats the characters don’t scale to, the sooner we actually discuss the feats themselves the sooner we can finish this discussion.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

We really aren't getting anywhere with this, it's just derailed to accusations and heated arguments., I'll just close this thread and reopen when I'm done with my post.

 

[Antvasima]

… at what point have any of us done this?

Well, a lot of regular members were also involved, so maybe I misremember, but I definitely do recall having to deal with pile-on attacks in different threads.

And you know what? I get being exasperated over things like that, but the things you’re talking about we’re done by regular users, so why are you accusing your staff of bias and favoritism? All that serves to do is belittle us and make us less willing to help out with other things. That’s part of the reason that people like Confluctor left.

I did not intend to accuse you of being anywhere nearly as bad as the genuinely bad cases I have encountered. I have just noticed that a few of you have been extremely relentless and quite unreasonable regarding finding compromise solutions, combined with trying to drown us in extremely unreliable feats that are very hard to sift through, instead of actually critically evaluating them beforehand to only present the ones that are genuinely reliable or at least possibly reliable.

 

[Antvasima]

Can all of yall PLEASE continue with the thread without bashing favoritisms and shit?

Let's not turn this into another "comic opinion bashing" thread like every single one I enter. Yall are annoying with this, just go back and forth

Sorry about that. I am very tired/mentally overexerted and have serious problems with engaging in any form of subterfuge/deceit, even for the reason of being more tactful. I only tried to explain my viewpoint after the issue was brought up again by others.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima stop with this whole “people are arguing favoritism for their verse rather than accuracy” claims, we can say that same thing to your side on how you’re playing favorites on what feats are allowed and what isn’t. If you think these feats aren’t legit, prove that they aren’t legit feats the characters don’t scale to, the sooner we actually discuss the feats themselves the sooner we can finish this discussion.

But the issue is that I love the Post-Crisis era and especially Superman, and I am still strictly focused on genuine reliability even though I technically think that it would be nice if we find any explicit and self-evident feats of a higher scale than he is currently listed at.

 

[Antvasima]

We really aren't getting anywhere with this, it's just derailed to accusations and heated arguments., I'll just close this thread and reopen when I'm done with my post.

Well, @PrinceofPein and @ImmortalDread also need to post here.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well, @PrinceofPein and @ImmortalDread also need to post here.

They can just prepare their posts in the meantime, and post them when Emirp reopens the thread.
I do think it's probably a good idea to leave the thread locked until then, to give everyone the chance to both cool off a little bit and also collect their thoughts/arguments. Then we can relaunch this discussion in a more efficient, argument-based manner that's hopefully smooth and devoid of conflicts. That's my two cents as an outsider with zero skin in the game, so to speak.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that may be reasonable.

If @ImmortalDread finishes her collection of all our available counter-feats, and @PrinceofPein finishes writing his arguments they should mention it to me in private.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima that doesn’t excuse your behavior on accusing people of being biased towards a series when all they’re doing is arguing for the characters to be a certain tier, something literally everyone on this site has done at least once. You’re a bureaucrat Ant, start acting like it because this is not how you convince people that the higher tiers for DC heralds is not legit.

 

[Armorchompy]

(Guys the thread is locked, can this wait)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Antvasima that doesn’t excuse your behavior on accusing people of being biased towards a series when all they’re doing is arguing for the characters to be a certain tier, something literally everyone on this site has done at least once. You’re a bureaucrat Ant, start acting like it because this is not how you convince people that the higher tiers for DC heralds is not legit.

Stop derailing the thread with this. We are moving on now.

and armor is correct

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I apologise if I caused offence to anybody, although I do not think that what I said seemed particularly harsh.

However, given that I am consistently going against my own favouritism of this verse when evaluating its statistics, I think that I am mostly focused on accuracy and reliability rather than as high or low statistics as possible.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay. I suppose that may be reasonable.

If @ImmortalDread finishes her collection of all our available counter-feats, and @PrinceofPein finishes writing his arguments they should mention it to me in private.

@ImmortalDread's blog has been finished
–Her comment

 

[Antvasima]

She told me in private that she is still working on it and needs to incorporate more feats.

 

[LordTracer]

Y’all, the thread is supposed to be closed right now, take your discussion elsewhere-

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Going to head off shortly, so, probably not gonna do more than a few posts here, but: Can anyone inform me of what, exactly, this thread is waiting for?

I've read through Dread's blog, and, from what I see, it's divided into:

1) A list of anti-feats that has already been responded to. And Deagon then responded to that, and it led to everything that's happened prior to the thread being closed.

2) A list of feats that's already been made avaliable in its entirety here.

From what I've gathered the blog doesn't even add anything new, it just copies and pastes those analyses into a single page. Not to mention it has some fairly weird inclusions, like things from Superman All-Star (Alternate universe story) and a anaysis on Superman lifting the Book of Infinite Pages (Not, as far as I can see, a feat that anyone's been pushing for)

So, what is the point of all this waiting, really? If you feel like the list of feats up there is that important, then that could've been tackled a while ago, without the need for anyone to make a blog on it.

And what exactly are the people supporting the upgrade meant to do in response to the anti-feats listed, exactly? Post their replies again? And what is Deagon meant to do in response to that? Post his replies again?

Frankly at this point I say we should just do a final call to see if any minds have been changed, and apply whatever the consensus is, given that the vote tally appears to be solidly hanging in favor of one side (The upgrades), so far.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't disagree but Emirp was going to make one big final post, I'd wait for that at least

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For what's worth, I've talked to Deagon in private earlier, and he agreed that, as it stands, further discussion is unproductive and a last call for the people who participated in the discussion is the best course of action. He can confirm this himself if needed, but, nevertheless, since he's been the primary opposition to the upgrades, I figured this would be good to let people know.

And I, for the matter, understand the importance of the last word, so, if Emirp still wants to make his big post before we wrap everything up, I suppose he's free to.

 

[Antvasima]

I have already told @Emirp sumitpo that I am fine with upgrading the herald-level DC Comics characters to "At least 4-A, likely/possibly Low 2-C" after seeing his latest list of feats which I found considerably more self-evident/explicit/reliable (with the exception of the Nebula Man), but he told me that he hasn't had the time to finish compiling and posting it here yet.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you all think about the following analysis regarding Post-Crisis Superman's power level?

Lonewolf3002's Den

This Google Site is a work in progress, and will likely be updated sporadically.

sites.google.com

 

[LordTracer]

Ant, the thread is closed because Emirp doesn’t want anyone to continue clogging the thread while he works on his post.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but I thought that it seemed like relevant information.

Regardless, as I have told Emirp, I find some of the new feats that he found sufficiently reliable to support an upgrade.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Sorry this took so long because irl stuff got in the way of this but it's here now. Credit to E2B for helping me with this:

That same first scan also says that Infinite-Man's power "might have contained the carnage", which means he might have been able to fix the paradoxes and contradictions talked about in that page, which is unqualifiable as they don't destroy the timeline or universe on its own, it's those 2 villains further damaging things that would cause that, and it's Space-Time hax that fixes some small things like people being in points in time where they're not meant to, use Space-Time hax to fix that isn't AP relevant.

They were still causing damage to the timeline, and would've eventually destroyed it. As Qawsedf said, this is applicable to AP.

"Cosmos" is a tricky word, while it can just mean the universe, it can also be unqualifiable sections of it as it refers to it as an orderly harmonious systematic universe.

The definition of cosmos is quite literally "the universe seen as a well-ordered whole." As well as this, the word annihilate specifically means "destroy utterly" or "obliterate", so the most logical interpretation is full Universal obliteration. On top of this, as you later show, Universe is used to describe it many times too.

Wielding a power source =/= having its full Tier unless proven. Orion's regular AP for punches & kicks may differ from his Astro-Force.

This doesn't make much sense. The point being made is that they would've needed Orion to be there, yet he isn't, and on top of that, he's the only one who has it. They have nothing else to base it off of, and clearly what's being suggested is that if Orion was there, he could use the Astro Force to stop it.

It says there that of the other gods only he can do it, this is an anti-feat for them and a clear portrayal of the Astro-Force as something above his regular stats (as he scales to other gods), that's the reasonable conclusion to make out of this.

Nothing really scales these other gods to him.

On top of this, it's not stated that the only reason this weapon can't be stopped by the other gods is its ability to destroy the Universe, considering it's not stated to be a limit, just something it's capable of. In fact, it's even treated as a separate thing, where first he says it could annihilate the Universe, but then that it was determined only the Astro-Force could stop it, which would be obvious if Universal annihilation was considered superior to the gods.

The armada "will move to destroy the Earth, and all the cosmos with it!"

This shows it's not just limited to destroying a planet btw.

Orion comes into drawn in by his Astro-Force, sensing this device something which is the very opposite of its own nature.

The fact Orion stops this (albeit off screen) should put an end to discussion on if Orion scales to it on its own.

So, a weapon that can destroy the universe can be stopped by the Astro-Force, either solely due to its a 3-A AP or AP being unqualifiable due to acting in a way that is the very opposite of its own nature (After all, there is no reason to believe it would still be able to stop the weapon should their natures not be opposites. For all we know if they weren't opposites the Astro-Force could be worthless for the job). No New God can stop this weapon. Orion doesn't scale to this use of his Astro-Force.

The point of it being due to their natures being different is entirely headcanon. Nothing suggests whatsoever that it simply nullifies the effects for this, and, if anything, what's stated is that the Astro-Force is a power that would contain it.

Saying that it's due to its nature and yet an anti-feat for the other Gods is also definitely a situation of trying to have your cake and eat it too; if you're arguing that the way to stop it is if you can use an opposite nature, it would be a power source issue instead. Regardless, it shouldn't be treated as either, as the anti-feat argument was refuted earlier, and the nature point is a random assertion. The argument Orion doesn't scale to this use of it makes literally no sense, he quite literally was the one to stop it as well as the only character its power could be based off of.

The timestream was already seriously damaged, Infinite-Man's power was a push further that would destroy it. This is following DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline that on their own damage a timeline, not AP.

Even if the universe is "crumbling", the universe was still relatively intact for the most part, Infinite Man's power was gonna destroy the whole thing in around 5 seconds, which would still qualify for some level of Low 2-C.

Further, since nothing was stated about being able to recreate the entire universal continuum according to their whims, just the local galaxy, and even that was not clarified if it would be a very gradual feat. It doesn't seem explicit/self-evident/reliable enough for tiering.

It's literally stated that it was the universe at stake, and it's definitely not a gradual feat, as it would've happened in 5.8 seconds. And in the issue prior, they stated they were going to control "all the time in the universe". That was the whole goal of their plan.

But SBP isn't at his higher levels all the time, and TT was defeated via a paradox activated by SBP, not AP/Dura scaling.

That doesn't matter at all and isn't the point, the point Superman can still clearly harm these characters, and that alone is enough for scaling. He doesn't need to have to defeat them in order to scale.

This, combined with the new rule on infinite power statements and the lack of clarity as to the nature of this infinite power, makes this unusable for tiering.

The Speed Force has numerous statements of it being Infinite, and considering the Speed Force is very physics based, it's highly likely Infinite statements relating to the Speed Force are literal.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.

You can't divide something such as this. Shaking a High 3-A feat via multiple punches would still be High 3-A as you cannot divide Infinity.

Looking at the scans, it syas: "He might have been on Earth to stop the Monarch. Indeed, the Monarch might never have arisen of course, there woud be nothing left for the monarch to covet." It sounds like Supes could have stopped him before the gained power, not that he can match his power & thus stop him. Even then it's very indecisive, this job for Superman may be like its own comic where he has an adventure where he wins at the end, he doesn't need to be as powerful as the villain. Reading the comics it's a time travel story where the present is before 2001, Monarch killed everyone in 2001 and rules the future 30 years from there, the villain is that future Monarch, it makes perfect sense that Supes would be able to stop him at a point where he was weaker.

None of that really changes the point, plus Superman manages to harm and survive attacks from Hank Hall while holding back. And this Monarch is the same guy as the guy in Armageddon 2001 who had time travelled to Zero Hour.

"implied to be capable of defeating Extant" is just him going to attack and getting punched. Why would this be the same Monarch from that timeline 30 years into the future that didn't come to be?

It's very obvious that was the intention of what's going to happen. If Superman were not capable of doing such a thing, Parallax would no reason to have intervened to one shot Supes.

Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.

It's an Infinite energy source, it's unrealistic for it to be able to "dry up". Furthermore, Brainiac literally states that he is capable of "Mold it. Shape it. Expand it at will." That is very blatant AP scaling to High 3-A.

The images are in random order.

This is because Imgur mixes things up sometimes, so whoops

The "space shattering" effect used in the fight is used when Supes punches a regular human being too ("Minor")

Scan?

All of this happens due to conceptual things; the ways the character should have acted being wrong in the eyes of the other character, rather than physical strength. For example Supes thinks Supes killed Lois by the way he handled his Earth, even though he saw her die of natural causes/for no reason right in front of him. It's not AP, and yes, it's at the same time dictated by their fight, such as punches. It's not binary, ok?

Not true, it is explicitly caused by the FORCE of their punches and the struggle between them with each clash. The interpretation of it not being AP is 100% headcanon.

At one point when the Supermans are beating each other they do so while changing forms as suits/forms Superman have had over the years, throwing out of the question the state in which they are being standard.

The suits are like, Superman Blue and Red who are weaker than main Clark so not a real issue. Also the initial space-time breaking is from PC and GA so later stuff doesn't matter

It turns out that Alex was messing up the multiverse all along, which he was hiding from Superman. To achieve his multiverse-related goal Alex says that Superman is the key and that everything comes from him, he messes him up along many versions of him across the multiverse, similar to how the 2 Supes were changing forms before. Alex's actions are messing up alt. Earths/universes.

The only damage atp is the million miles tear in space, which has no real affect on a 200 trillion light year Universe. The damage we see being done later is all after the two Supermen stopped fighting, and we know the weakening of worlds is from them dividing, so no, this would not affect the fight at all.

Edit!: Right after the battle was over Earth-Two Supes explains that the multiverse is unstable, that the Earths will become weaker and weaker as they're divided (Their current state), and if they aren't brought ack together soon the entire universe will explode in a new big bang & everything will be destroyed. He just knew this after being calmed down, at first both Sups blamed each other for the chaos because they didn't know any better, but they were wrong, the Earths were divided (visible from the sky) from before the battle started, and that is a state that, on its own, messes up the universe badly & will destroy it. Superman having a vague conceptual thing going on over this related to how writers do things in comics is not something that matters to his AP at all.

Emphasis on right after the battle was over lmao, that was straight up not happening during the fight. The assumption they were conflating their fight with the other Earth's shenanigans is once again head canon and makes no sense, what those Earths are doing is dividing from each other, not transporting characters across reality. The back of the comic even states the two Superman are bending reality so it's pretty cut and dry.

Furthermore, "shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines" isn't Low 2-C, it would be 3-A for destroying the universe, which they didn't do nor could do at once, the over time thing they did do was to f*ck up the planet.

Affecting the 4th dimensional space-time significantly is literally textbook Low 2-C. Them not affecting the Earth doesn't matter, the point is their attacks had such force they bent the space-time continuum to change it and move the two Supes over, not they were destroying the Universe. The OP explains this whole thing already.

• Furthermore, "shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines" isn't Low 2-C, it would be 3-A for destroying the universe, which they didn't do nor could do at once, the over time thing they did do was to f*ck up the planet.

Significantly altering the timeline via AP is blatant Low 2-C.

The comparison made is super vague, hit with everything he got can easily refer to the standard levels he works with given how normalized he has to not work with his peak levels.

I don't see what's vague about Captain Atom blatantly saying "I have to hit her with everything I've got". The statement is incredibly direct.

Mordru criticizes Supes for attacking head-on, Mordru then gets tagged by magic from behind as the attacker brags about how it was an attack from behind (I would think they're trying to justify having been able to achieve this), Supes follows up with a punch. This is just a standard comic outlier, Mordru was taken off-guard, an out load reason was given as to why this was achieved, and he was attacked with magic of unknown effects (could be hax, if so not even an outlier).

1. I doubt just because Mordru was distracted, his durability when down by a significant amount.
2. If anything, this just means Superman downscales from him, as it's clearly from the fight alone that Superman isn't that far below Mordru.

Many things wrong here. The GLC Central Battery can do that, but it's not that simple, you portray it as if its average attack was that strong, when it's not. It first needs to siphon all GL energy back to itself, this alone meaning that it can't do the feat w/o doing that yet. After that it will overload, have a power builtup & destroy itself, meaning that the feat's more than it can handle, hence it happens after an overload (It having more power than it can load), a power builtup (leads to the latter), and it destroys itself doing the feat (Your regular punches, kicks, blasts, etc. don't scale to some feat where you self-destruct).
Even then, being amped by a power source =/= having a Tier=to that power source, obligatory. Otherwise one attack alone would cause the thing to be drained into having 0 power, it needs to be proven that their stats are the same.
Hal Jordan got stomped by Sinestro with those powers, who considered himself godlike despite already scaling to Hal's level in base. Sinestro was enjoying attacking Hal immensely, so you have 3 solid reasons to dismiss that feat, that being before Hal got healed & a powerup to match Sinestro on that level.
Those scans don't show that Molly has all that, just that something has it, and it doesn't show that they have the full power of those things, just access to it. All that power is also spreading through time, so there is no reason for the full sum of it to be in the present where she's using it.
Click to expand...

This is such a non point. The latter parts isn't relevant as you have things such as Ion, who scales to the entirety of the lantern itself, which characters like Krona scales to or above, as well who Hal scales to as well.

This is a black lantern-revived Spectre, he's zombified / rotten / with less durability by the decomposed state he's in.

His durability should at lest be somewhat comparable to his AP given he doesn't just explode whenever he punches something, and if anything, he should be stronger given that a Black Lantern Lois Lan could harm Krypto.

Krona

We know that in order to forcefully control the entities, you'd need to have at least comparable AP as shown as how Atrocitus could make Butcher submit to him, or how Sinestro was able to tame Parallax and make it submit to him completely.

In Green Lantern #60, Krona is shown to have control of all entities and even forcefully pulls them out like a leash here and here. Krona also explains how this works further in Green Lantern #62, stating that by controlling Ion, he controls all willpower. Sinestro also states in Green Lantern #63 that Krona had complete control over the entities. We also see in Green Lantern #64 that Krona could seemingly restrain all Entities. And in another example, in Green Lantern Emerald Warriors #8, to show Krona's control of the entities, he could use Parallax's abilities to corrupt the corps.

Many things. Playing along it's only 3-A as said before. It's far less as it's just to set tapes on fire to burn them away. When the characters from this tape realities come out they do so as miniture versions, no reason to believe that this universes are as big & complex as real universes. Even if they were, it would be a Creation feat rather than anything that could be used offensively.

Qawsedf already summed it up for me, but separating a universe in two via raw physical strength does not qualify as a creation feat in the slightest. And even so, via comparing the mini Superman + Batman together, it's clearly the mini universe isn't all that much smaller than the regular universe. At worst, this feat would be 3-B.

Also I'm gonna cover some other parts like Aegis, Starbreaker, Kyle surviving the big bang and Hal's willworld.

Aztek
Arguments against this was:

1. Superman was amped by Aztek's light energy
2. The energy should've destroyed the Universe had it been 4D, but didn't

I'll start off with the Aztek feat.
The arguments against this was that:
1. Superman was amped by Aztek's light energy
2. The energy should've destroyed the Universe had it been 4D, but didn't

The argument for it amping Superman makes very little sense. Starting off, Aztek's powers literally have no correlation to light. This was claimed on the original thread with no source, and has no backing I could find. However, even if he is, Superman's literally damaged by this energy, and has been damaged by light energy in other issues like Justice League of America #14. So, even though solar radiation amps Superman, not every light source does. However, even if this was the case, we know from Aztek: The Ultimate Man #9 that three-dimensional bodies cannot absorb Aztek's fourth-dimensional energies.

The second argument could just be countered by AP being separate from AoE, but in this case, they're inside the body of Maggedon, so the reason it's not reaching further is because it's not able to pierce through Maggedon's body. Considering how high Maggedon scales, this is hardly surprising.

Lastly, some may wonder if 4D energy has to refer to tier 2 power, but in this case especially, it's part of Grant Morrison's JLA, who's 4th dimension has scaled to tier 2 in the cosmology split, and even during this run in JLA #29, it's treated as such.

Entropy Aegis
The argument against the Entropy Aegis scaling were that:

1. The Aegis could've been holding back due to being used by John Henry Irons
2. Its Universal recreation and destruction are not AP related

The first one has no basis, considering in both fights (Man of Steel #122 and #134), the Aegis explicitly gains control.

The second also has no basis. As we know from Man of Steel #116, the Aegis is literally just an Imperiex Probe with some Apokoliptian technology. As we know from Adventures of Superman #594, Superman #151, JLA: Our Worlds at War, and practically all of their other appearances, Imperiex Probes are just brawlers who have some entropy attacks and explode when destroyed. They have no special properties, the only explanation is that the Entropy abilities have high enough potency to scale to a Universal level.

Starbreaker
Now, for the Starbreaker feat.

The contentions brought up were that:

1. He only defeated Dharma, so he wouldn't scale to the power of the Rift that held the Universes together
2. Starbreaker loses power over time due to not absorbing energies, so it's questionable who scales to this level of power
3. Dharma could've defeated Starbreaker had he not been low on stamina

The first one makes no sense. While it is true he defeated Dharma, Dharma was tapping into the power of the rift at this time and was shown ON PANEL holding the Universes together with his own hands, saying that he holds it all together.

The second point is valid, but not relevant. Superman and Hal overpowered Starbreaker in issue 29, before he defeated Dharma, so he'd have more power while fight Clark and Hal then he did later on. Icon and John were also fighting him immediately after he defeated Dharma, so it's dubious his power would've dropped very much.

The third isn't very relevant. What's said is he didn't have the spare power to defeat Starbreaker, yet during this point in time, he's still fully capable of holding the Universes together, despite them constantly drifting apart.

So in conclusion, the JL members that fought Starbreaker fought him with either more or insignificantly less power than he did when performing the 2-C feat, that Dharma had the power of the Rift, and that even when he was defeated, Dharma was still had a 2-C level of power, whether at his full power or not.

Kyle Rayner surviving the big bang
Now, we have Kyle Rayner surviving the Zero Hour Big Bang. The concerns here were that:

1. He did not survive it, but rather connected to Waverider's rift to avoid it.
2. Even if he did, this would be 3-A rather than Low 2-C.

I think the former comes from a misreading of events. They were at ground zero, and while he did connect to Waverider's rift, Waverider's rift didn't even exist until pages after he says they were blown away by the big bang (scan 3).

Essentially, the sequence of events is that:
1. The Zero Hour Big Bang occurs (scan 1 again)
2. Kyle and Hal get hit by it, but Waverider brings the characters outside the timestream (scan 4)
3. Waverider makes a rift to bring characters back into time (scan 3 again)
4. Parallax links to this and brings Kyle with him (scan 2 again)

As for the second point, the Zero Hour Big Bang created time as well. It's also stated to have recreated the timeline in Doomsday Wars. In fact, even the regular Big Bang is stated to have been the beginning of time in Stormwatch #2.

Hal's Willworld
Lastly, we have Hal containing a Universe in his ring. The contentions here are:

1. If these are full Universes
2. If Hal creating them scales to his AP

During Green Lantern: Willworld and The Green Lantern #7, we get a lot of information that points to the idea of it being a full Universe. First of all, it's not contained within the main Universe as some suggested, as it's accessed through the battery, and is a non-local Universe, implying it's separate from the local or main Universe.

It's referred to as an entire Universe, giving a starting basis for the rating, and while Hal at a point questions their size, he figures it's just that he's so big at the moment, and later calls it a Universe/infinite sea, implying the progression is that Hal realizes it is its own, full Universe.

Hal creating it may or may not scale to his AP, but what should absolutely scale is the fact that he can sustain it constantly. We know that the Universe would be destroyed if Hal ran out of power, with it only continuing to be sustained by the last fractions of Hal's ring percent. Considering Hal is able to, at times, use all of his willpower, like in The Flash #49, meaning his attacks can use up way more power than the fractions that sustain it.

Also why are several feats from the OG thread missing here? I know some of them are collectively rejected, but some of them are still being debated upon and am still willing to debate upon, such as:

• Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
  • Calculation
• Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
• Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994), as was stated many times(Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
  • Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986) and stalemated the Time Trapper (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
• Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
  • Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
  • Nebula Man was going yo destroy the universe. (Stargirl: The Lost Children #6, May 2023)
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang (Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
• Hal Jordan knocks off Spectre (Crispus Allen)'s jaw, staggering him and freeing the Guardians, and stabs him with help from the Guardians (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #50, March 2010)
• Wally West fights Pre Crisis Reverse Flash (The Flash Vol.2 #224, September 2005)
• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Superman and Hal Jordan have fought Starbreaker's pull (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29, March 2009), and Icon and John Stewart have staggered Starbreaker (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
• Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
• Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already did (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
• The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010), and fought an Obsidian/Jade merge (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010), both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010), while gradually losing power.
  • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016), which has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms (The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
• Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • As mentioned before, human Lanterns have fought Guardians when they were amped. They also fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind controlled (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018). Hal also believes he could defeat someone who defeated the Guardians (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018), with Guardians being compared in power to individual power batteries (Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
• Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)

Also three new feats I'd like to add are:

• The U-Bomb was created to specifically test Hal's relationship with his own ring, and off of him disarming it, they decided to make him a component for the Miracle Machine, specifically noted to be able to easily remake the Universe here. (The Green Lantern #12, October 2019)
• Hal Jordan contained and reduced the explosion of Golden Destroyer to below atomic scale, which would have destroyed 2 universes. (The Green Lantern: Season Two #9, January 2021)
• Post-Crisis Superman fought the Anti-Monitor alongside Pre-Crisis Flash and Supergirl (Superman: Lois and Clark #1, December 2015)

 

[Stefano4444]

Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)

This feat had been firmly debunked.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

This feat had been firmly debunked.

Sorry for intruding on a staff thread, I'm just seeing this link go directly to Danny Phantom's profile

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned earlier, I think that quite a lot of the mentioned feats, combined with the ones that were displayed in your blog that we talked about via your message wall seem to warrant "At least 4-A, likely Low 2-C" or "At least 4-A, likely 2-C" for the post-Crisis characters at their peaks, and "At least 3-B, likely Low 2-C" or "At least 3-B, likely 2-C" for the post-Rebirth characters, but I would much prefer if we only use the most reliable/self-evident of those feats, not extremely arguable ones such as fighting a sentient human-sized miniature universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Circe was extremely powered-up from her normal state when being a threat to the universe, due to draining power from most of all of Earth's gods combined.