DC Comics herald-level characters upgrade discussion - Part 2

[Armorchompy]

DC Comics far from linear with its power level system. Yes, some characters are consistently Superman level in terms of heavy hitting despite lacking anything beyond Batman level lifting capacity such as the various Flashes and Karate Kid. But Superman is pretty much the opposite and he typically trains his lifting capacity and flight speed with his SS and combat speed only being as good as those. And a lot of characters who are just as strong as Superman pretty much have their lifting strength being their primary method of attacking even against their strongest opponents. Lobo's best lifting strength feat was stellar class and he had to give all his might to pull it off, and this is the same guy who has ripped Superman's arms off before (Or at least I have seen an image for such on an old Screwattack forum that no longer exists). Furthermore, I recall FanofRPGs mentioning many times in the past, but the various planetary lifting feats also caused Superman's muscles to tear up and gave put him in a near cardiac arrest point.

I'm sorry but I don't think you're right here. Beyond the fact that Karate Kid does not scale to Kryptonians in AP as checking his page would inform you of, the argument that "superman trains his lifting capacity, striking strength, flight speed and combat speed" is just... not elaborated on at all. How can speed even be equal to attack? Anyways, Lobo's stellar feat is casual and done with a lack of leverage (which kinda counters these anti-feats), comic book fights rarely hinge on grappling and are mostly just people throwing punches and kicks at each other with little choreography, and even other people who do physically scale to Superman in SS without any hax bullshit arguably don't in terms of LS, Wonder Woman coming to mind.

Also, the list of anti-feats aren't the only thing Deagon listed that concerned, but pretty much each and every single Tier 2 feat has some flaws or reading the entire comics either proved otherwise that either there was no real feat to be had, or was a chain reaction; and the few legit Tier 2 feats aren't even direct feats but indirect feats such as him fighting Superboy-Prime (Who held back exponentially against Post-Crisis) and it's still consistently stated for Post-Crisis to be infinitely weaker than his Pre-Crisis counterpart. So Superboy-Prime going from being Pre-Crisis Superman's equal to then being Post-Crisis' equal makes 0 sense unless he either some how got much weaker or he held back that much.

I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying that the debate should get to continue in that regard.

Anyways, if Post-Crisis and Rebirth scale to each other, which fair enough, they do, I wasn't sure if that was something we considered profile-wise:

2) It takes 9 Heroes/Villains hitting the earth with everything they have at max-speed to destabilize it (DC Death Metal #5)

The response was that the Earth was acting as a conduit for TDK being powered by the multiverse, but there's no indication that this altered or affected the degree of difficulty it would take to destabilize it.

Well, the very fact that it is powering the multiverse just throws the feat into question, and in fact this is arguably a tier 2 feat of its own. That isn't provable but you can't prove the opposite either and that makes the anti-feat very suspicious. And... again, Swamp Thing is there. That dude's got like five tier 2 feats of his own.

7) Superman is unsure how to destroy a bomb capable of withstanding the Earth's core (Man of Steel #6)

Again, tier 9 anti-feat.

19) Ship is accelerated to the point where it would merely destroy a continent... ...Superman passes out after stopping it (Action Comics #901-902)

Arguably LS. But arguably legit.

The Essential Superman Encyclopedia statement. And the same page above mentioned how he defers from his Pre-Crisis counterpart.

We don't use hand/guidebooks for DC/Marvel. They're very unreliable.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I am not a big fan of how so many whataboutisms are being overused

Our intention wasn't to engage in whataboutisms. We simply wished to convey to Deagon the idea that LS and AP/SS often do not correlate on the wiki. Son Goku just happened to be the most popular example of this that we can all just immediately recognize, but there's a plethora of other examples, including characters who don't have a straighforward UES like Ki or what have you. I get what you mean, though.

 

[KLOL506]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-herald-level-characters-upgrade-discussion-part-2.152269/post-5906528

Apologies, my internet is a bit slow, I didn't see Emirp responding about it before I posted my comment.

That being said however, my point regarding having to use Post-Crisis anti-feats and not anything else still stands.

 

[LordTracer]

The Essential Superman Encyclopedia statement. And the same page above mentioned how he defers from his Pre-Crisis counterpart.

So these ”consistent statements“ of him being infinitely weaker than his Pre-Crisis self comes from… a single statement. From a guidebook. Which we don’t use for DC. Not to mention that it doesn’t even say he’s infinitely weaker than he was in Pre-Crisis, it says he’s never had the unlimited power of characters like The Spectre.

I do not even know specifically where this is stated, but I have heard it brought up numerous times on previous discussions. So I trust others more than I trust my own. However.

So… you made the claim that Superboy-Prime was holding back… but you can’t actually prove it?

 

[Deagonx]

Well, the very fact that it is powering the multiverse just throws the feat into question

It's not powering the multiverse, it's just acting as a conduit.

Apologies, my internet is a bit slow, I didn't see Emirp responding about it before I posted my comment.

That being said however, my point regarding having to use Post-Crisis anti-feats and not anything else still stands.

That wasn't a response from Emirp, that's a quote from the main thread, it's stated near the very beginning. Your point about only using Post-Crisis feats and anti-feats does not stand at all, because the OP of this project said it was for both Post-Crisis and Rebirth, and he used several Rebirth feats. If you want to change the nature of the project, take it up with Emirp instead of insulting me.

 

[LordTracer]

if Post-Crisis and Rebirth scale to each other, which fair enough, they do

If I understand correctly, Rebirth scales to Post-Crisis, but Post-Crisis doesn’t scale to Rebirth.

 

[Deagonx]

So… you made the claim that Superboy-Prime was holding back… but you can’t actually prove it?

Regarding SBP, this was Eficiente's point:

Superboy-Prime's super inconsistent, the take on his powers his power being rage-based is fitting to how it goes up and down in a same comic for apparently no reason. He usually gets caught off-guard in a way that he seems to be helpless but then proceeds to easily deal with whoever attacked him. He has pierced Superman's shoulder and made a hole in his hand with heat vision, blitzed Bart, Wally West & Jay Garrick at once, and threatened to cause a Big Bang that he would survive from the center while it kills off everyone else. Heralds scaling to his peak is pretty nonsensical.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not powering the multiverse, it's just acting as a conduit.

That means that the energy powering the multiverse is passing through it. Like, I'm not saying this makes it a 2-A or whatever feat, but it definitely can prove to be a reason as to why all these people struggle to budge it.

If I understand correctly, Rebirth scales to Post-Crisis, but Post-Crisis doesn’t scale to Rebirth.

I think that's correct yes.

 

[KLOL506]

That wasn't a response from Emirp, that's a quote from the main thread, it's stated near the very beginning.

I was talking about this:

Rebirth and Post-Crisis do actually somewhat scale to each other, as several characters from Post-Crisis appear within Rebirth. The Darkseid statement is purely new 52 so it's not the same.

 

[Deagonx]

That means that the energy powering the multiverse is passing through it. Like, I'm not saying this makes it a 2-A or whatever feat, but it definitely can prove to be a reason as to why all these people struggle to budge it.

I mean, we have a dozen other feats of them clearly struggling to move planetary bodies, this is just the one in which it's presented as an attack. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

 

[Deagonx]

I was talking about this:

Regardless, that was in the original thread to begin with, you should not have been so aggressive towards me on the matter.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, we have a dozen other feats of them clearly struggling to move planetary bodies, this is just the one in which it's presented as an attack. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

Links? Scans? Context? Era?

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, we have a dozen other feats of them clearly struggling to move planetary bodies, this is just the one in which it's presented as an attack. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

It is when you consider that this is way more people than any other feat, they just need to budge it, Swamp Thing and an equal are there, and that LS is still indeed a different thing from SS.

 

[Deagonx]

It is when you consider that this is way more people than any other feat, they just need to budge it, Swamp Thing and an equal are there, and that LS is still indeed a different thing from SS.

It's not that different from other limitations shown:

9) Superman, Wonder Woman, and Kyle admit they couldn't pull the moon again (JLA (1997) #58)

Key quote: "We couldn't do that again given twice the stakes."

14) Superman needs all his strength to move a Venus sized planet 13 meters (Superman Red and Blue #1)

1) A combined effort of Superman, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter, Power Girl and Marvel Family was required to move the Moon that at the time was covered in debris (JLA/Titans #3).

Key quote: "I moved the moon alone once when I had electro-magnetic powers. This time we have to rely on team work and brute strength."

The links aren't copying over but these are in the OP. And indeed LS and SS are different, but usually people can lift much more than they can destroy with a punch. Sure, fiction breaks and bends that relationship commonly enough, but this is a pretty clear SS anti-feat that is on track with many of the LS limitations.

 

[LordTracer]

Regarding SBP, this was Eficiente's point:

Okay but that’s not what DDM claimed. He claimed that Superboy-Prime was holding back against Superman, and I want to see proof of that.

Not to mention that Efi’s post has no scans in it and doesn’t actually explain why Superman shouldn’t scale to his peak beyond ”it’s nonsensical”, especially when both Superman and Superboy fought versions of SBP that were actively trying to kill them.

 

[Armorchompy]

this is a pretty clear SS anti-feat that is on track with many of the LS limitations.

It'd be pretty clear if 1) tier 2 energy wasn't running through the planet 2) tier 2 characters weren't taking part in the feat

 

[KLOL506]

It's not that different from other limitations shown:

9) Superman, Wonder Woman, and Kyle admit they couldn't pull the moon again (JLA (1997) #58)

Key quote: "We couldn't do that again given twice the stakes."

14) Superman needs all his strength to move a Venus sized planet 13 meters (Superman Red and Blue #1)

1) A combined effort of Superman, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter, Power Girl and Marvel Family was required to move the Moon that at the time was covered in debris (JLA/Titans #3).

Key quote: "I moved the moon alone once when I had electro-magnetic powers. This time we have to rely on team work and brute strength."

The links aren't copying over but these are in the OP. And indeed LS and SS are different, but usually people can lift much more than they can destroy with a punch. Sure, fiction breaks and bends that relationship commonly enough, but this is a pretty clear SS anti-feat that is on track with many of the LS limitations.

Pretty sure Emirp responded to this here.

 

[Deagonx]

doesn’t actually explain why Superman shouldn’t scale to his peak beyond ”it’s nonsensical”

That's just plainly not a good faith representation of his argument. Literally the entire paragraph prior to that phrase is meant to illustrate why Superman shouldn't scale to his peak.

Pretty sure Emirp responded to this here.

Yes, and the response was "It's lifting strength." We're comparing it to this SS feat to those because it's on a similar scale, and thus consistent.

It'd be pretty clear if 1) tier 2 energy wasn't running through the planet 2) tier 2 characters weren't taking part in the feat

And yet, that's what happened, and we don't have any actual evidence that the Tier 2 energy made it supernaturally difficult to move, and it's very much in line with these other limitations.

If you apply this same degree of scrutiny to any of the feats in the OP, all of them pretty much fall apart, so I think it's fairly moot to take this approach.

 

[Antvasima]

Can everybody who have gone out of line here please calm down and try to be friendly and polite? You have repeatedly behaved very badly when trying to upgrade DC Comics or Marvel Comics characters, both towards me and others, and cannot expect to absolutely always have me and other staff members agreeing with you, even though I usually try to be helpful and reasonable in this regard.

Anyway, as I have stated previously, I do not have a problem with rating a sun-dipped peak end of Post-Crisis era Superman as 3-A, as he has a quite reliable/explicit feat in this range, nor do I have a major problem with rating his Post-Rebirth incarnation (which is essentially a later version of the same character) and similarly powerful characters as far above tier 4-B, given that the Phantom Zone feat seems far more straightforward/explicit/reliable/non-diffuse in comparison to your other examples, but that doesn't seem to be good enough for you, and any disagreements and saying that what you are suggesting doesn't make consistent/coherent logical sense has repeatedly been met with pile-on hostility, which is not acceptable for either staff or regular members.

@Deagonx @ImmortalDread @Eficiente @Elizio33 @PrinceofPein

Would you please be willing to compile ALL of our available counter-evidence feats for the Superman-level characters, including images and issue references, into a single wiki blog post for easier overview please? I would greatly appreciate the help, and you are obviously allowed to collaborate with each other in this regard.

This would include all of the initially listed counter-feats early in this thread as well as the series of blog posts that I linked to later here.

 

[Armorchompy]

And yet, that's what happened, and we don't have any actual evidence that the Tier 2 energy made it supernaturally difficult to move, and it's very much in line with these other limitations.

You don't need evidence, reasonable doubt is enough and it's pretty damn reasonable when a tier 2 character can't do it on its own.

 

[Deagonx]

You don't need evidence, reasonable doubt is enough and it's pretty ******* reasonable when a tier 2 character can't do it on its own.

This version of Swamp Thing is not Tier 2.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems best to postpone this unnecessarily hostile and unreasonable argument until after all of the counter-feats have been properly compiled into a single blog that can be easily overviewed.

 

[Armorchompy]

Can everybody who have gone out of line here please calm down and try to be friendly and polite? You have repeatedly behaved very badly when trying to upgrade DC Comics or Marvel Comics characters, both towards me and others, and cannot expect to absolutely always have me and other staff members agreeing with you, even though I usually try to be helpful and reasonable in this regard.

What? Literally what did I do? There has been at absolute best one mildly rude comment in this interaction in the last few days, that's really not worth guilt-tripping people over.

nor do I have a major problem with rating his Post-Rebirth incarnation (which is essentially a later version of the same character) and similarly powerful characters as far above tier 4-B, given that the Phantom Zone feat seems far more straightforward/explicit/reliable/non-diffuse in comparison to your other examples, but that doesn't seem to be good enough for you, and any disagreements and saying that what you are suggesting doesn't make consistent/coherent logical sense has repeatedly been met with pile-on hostility, which is not acceptable for either staff or regular members.

Yeah because you keep doing it without actual proof beyond arbitrary skepticism side-lined with accusations, and it's not something that we're ever going to agree with.

That said if you are willing to concede to Rebirth characters being Low 2-C, that's something worth noting.

Would you please be willing to compile ALL of our available counter-evidence feats for the Superman-level characters, including images and issue references, into a single wiki blog post for easier overview please? I would greatly appreciate the help, and you are obviously allowed to collaborate with each other in this regard.

That was already done, we're discussing that RN.

This version of Swamp Thing is not Tier 2.

The profile is ass but it's the same guy, remember how Rebirth works? They're basically a composite, sort of.

 

[Deagonx]

The profile is ass but it's the same guy, remember how Rebirth works? They're basically a composite, sort of.

Swamp Thing (Post-Flashpoint)

I stand as the avatar of plant life so that no one else who actually would harm the balance can have that role. And when you fight me, you fight the plant life of the whole world. Swamp Thing is an elemental creature who shares a connection to all plant life on the planet Earth through a network...

vsbattles.fandom.com

It's Death Metal, which means Post-Flashpoint Swamp Thing, he's currently Tier 4 from scaling to Wonder Woman and Supes. He's not significantly more powerful than any of the other characters present.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's Death Metal, which means Post-Flashpoint Swamp Thing, he's currently Tier 4 from scaling to Wonder Woman and Supes. He's not significantly more powerful than any of the other characters present.

yeah as i said it's a bad profile. but, even in the scan itself they mention that he and abby are straight-up using the power of the Green and the Rot respectively to try and budge the planet, and those are... sheesh I dunno, I think 2-A at minimum but maybe tier 1?

 

[Deagonx]

yeah as i said it's a bad profile. but, even in the scan itself they mention that he and abby are straight-up using the power of the Green and the Rot respectively to try and budge the planet, and those are... sheesh I dunno, I think 2-A at minimum but maybe tier 1?

We are getting side tracked with a pretty pointless and moot discussion. This version of Swamp Thing has never been shown to be wildly above the other characters present in that scan, and the Green was never portrayed that way in this continuity. If you have an actual striking strength or lifting strength feat from Swamp Thing that is wildly above these other characters please show it. If not, don't derail this discussion further by trying to imply that Swamp Thing's participation in moving the planet should somehow be seen as wielding some weird cosmological scaling from his classic version, which itself is pretty specious. He was never shown to be that strong in this storyline at all.

 

[LordTracer]

That's just plainly not a good faith representation of his argument. Literally the entire paragraph prior to that phrase is meant to illustrate why Superman shouldn't scale to his peak.

It… doesn’t, though. All it does is show that SBP has a variable power level, none of it actually explains why Clark (or Kon, for that matter) shouldn’t scale to his peak. Unless you think him piercing Superman’s shoulder shows that, but that overlooks how Clark was off-guard when that happened and harming someone that can harm you is one of the easiest ways to show comparability.

 

[Antvasima]

What? Literally what did I do lmao?

As far as I recall, you and others have repeatedly been very hostile, rude, and disrespectful towards me and other members just because we disagree with you regarding these topics.

Yeah because you keep doing it without actual proof beyond arbitrary skepticism side-lined with accusations, and it's not something that we're ever going to agree with.

No, I have gone through the remaining least unrealiable feats that you all managed to find, and only found the Phantom Zone feat somewhat reliable to scale from as far as I recall.

That said if you are willing to concede to Rebirth characters being Low 2-C, that's something worth noting.

Well, scale them to shaking the Phantom Zone at least. If the entire PZ was shaken, and it is a finite universe, that means tier 3-A, and if it is an infinite universe that means tier High 3-A.

That was already done, we're discussing that RN.

A single blog has been compiled for ALL of our feats? Can somebody link to it please?

The profile is ass but it's the same guy, remember how Rebirth works? They're basically a composite, sort of.

It is the same character merged with another version of himself and gradually greatly powered up, much like the early Post-Crisis Superman was knocked out by regular nuclear explosions, but turned far more powerful later on, and recently he has apparently gone through another massive power-up, possibly to Pre-Crisis levels, but that likely remains to be seen.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

yeah as i said it's a bad profile. but, even in the scan itself they mention that he and abby are straight-up using the power of the Green and the Rot respectively to try and budge the planet, and those are... sheesh I dunno, I think 2-A at minimum but maybe tier 1?

Tier 1 could be argued for The Green, yes. But yeah, it's unequivocally 2-A even in post-flashpoint (in fact, The Green was straight up unaffected by the flashpoint, as the events for vertigo Swamp Thing are still referenced during Rot World, just happening "in a different era", and a version of vertigo Swamp Thing, or at least someone that experienced his life, straight up appears and talks to post-flashpoint Alec Holland)

 

[Deagonx]

Tier 1 could be argued for The Green, yes. But yeah, it's unequivocally 2-A even in post-flashpoint (in fact, The Green was straight up unaffected by the flashpoint, as the events for vertigo Swamp Thing are still referenced during Rot World, just happening "in a different era", and a version of vertigo Swamp Thing, or at least someone that experienced his life, straight up appears and talks to post-flashpoint Alec Holland)

That would make him significantly more powerful even than The World Forger. He was not shown to be anything remotely that powerful in this version. He is consistently shown to be just a bit above the average Justice League member. This is a storyline where the Multiverse's predominant villain was going around destroy a single universe at a time.

Aside from that, these are two completely different cosmologies. That version of Swamp Thing is scaling to Vertigo. Death Metal occurs in Snyder's cosmology, which is very different.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That would make him significantly more powerful even than The World Forger. He was not shown to be anything remotely like that power in this version. He is consistently shown to be just a bit above the average Justice League member.

Swamp Thing is a variable character, as his power greatly depends on how much of The Green he is influencing. He's not tier 2 all the time, however, if he was channeling the entire The Green in these events, he 100% should be 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @ImmortalDread @Eficiente @Elizio33 @PrinceofPein

Would you please be willing to compile ALL of our available counter-evidence feats for the Superman-level characters, including images and issue references, into a single wiki blog post for easier overview please? I would greatly appreciate the help, and you are obviously allowed to collaborate with each other in this regard.

This would include all of the initially listed counter-feats early in this thread as well as the series of blog posts that I linked to later here.

@PrinceofPein

You are allowed to help out here if you are willing and able to properly do so btw.

 

[Deagonx]

Swamp Thing is a variable character, as his power greatly depends on how much of The Green he is influencing. He's not tier 2 all the time, however, if he was channeling the entire The Green in these events, he 100% should be 2-A.

He has absolutely no feats on this level at all. His current Tier 4 is solely from scaling to Superman, who is scaling to that single Alan Scott statement about the solar system. You're trying to scale him from a different version and cosmology altogether. It's entirely irrelevant here, this version of Swamp Thing is not that powerful at all.

 

[Armorchompy]

As far as I recall, you and others have repeatedly been very hostile, rude, and disrespectful towards me and other members just because we disagree with you.

Yeah, but for you to bring it up now it'd need to be an actual ongoing issue and everyone's nice right now, so.

No, I have gone through the remaining least unrealiable feats that you all managed to find, and only found the Phantom Zone feat somewhat reliable to scale from as far as I recall.

Can we wait for Emirp's post in that regard? I was planning to go through the feats myself but I think it's good to wait for that

A single blog has been compiled for ALL of our feats? Can somebody link to it please?

Deagonx listed all of the anti-feats he thinks are legitimate and I started commenting about that.

It is the same character merged with another version of himself and gradually greatly powered up, much like the early Post-Crisis Superman was knocked out by regular nuclear explosions, but turned far more powerful later on, and recently he has apparently gone through another massive power-up, possibly to Pre-Crisis levels, but that likely remains to be seen.

Aye, so he'd upscale from his Post-Crisis version if anything.

That would make him significantly more powerful even than The World Forger.

The World Forger can just upscale from him if context implies that he should.

He was not shown to be anything remotely that powerful in this version. He is consistently shown to be just a bit above the average Justice League member.

Shown? What do you want him to do, destroy universes for fun? He's a variable character who rarely showcases his fully might and a glass cannon on top of that, but if he has reason to go all out (and I'd say a threat to the multiverse is definitely one) he's absolutely that strong.

This is a storyline where the Multiverse's predominant villain was going around destroy a single universe at a time.

Could be a range or a character thing. Swamp Thing can't destroy entire multiverses at once either, I don't think.

He has absolutely no feats on this level at all. His current Tier 4 is solely from scaling to Superman, who is scaling to that single Alan Scott statement about the solar system. You're trying to scale him from a different version and cosmology altogether. It's entirely irrelevant here, this version of Swamp Thing is not that powerful at all.

Do you need us to repeat to you that his Post-Flashpoint profile is extremely bad and outdated? Just look at the thing.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

He has absolutely no feats on this level at all. His current Tier 4 is solely from scaling to Superman, who is scaling to that single Alan Scott statement about the solar system. You're trying to scale him from a different version and cosmology altogether. It's entirely irrelevant here, this version of Swamp Thing is not that powerful at all.

I already explained how The Green stayed the same even after the flashpoint. I can get the scans later, but yeah, not irrelevant at all.

 

[Deagonx]

The World Forger can just upscale from him if context implies that he should.

No, he can't, because World Forger himself is scaled down based on explicit limitations.

Shown? What do you want him to do, destroy universes for fun?

I want him to have actual feats anywhere remotely on the scale you're suggesting.

I already explained how The Green stayed the same even after the flashpoint. I can get the scans later, but yeah, not irrelevant at all.

And I already explained that these are two separate cosmologies, and thus not relevant at all.

 

[LordTracer]

His current Tier 4 is solely from scaling to Superman, who is scaling to that single Alan Scott statement about the solar system.

That’s not what Post-Flashpoint 4-Bs scale to, they scale to Mogo illuminating the universe and Orion destroying solar systems by clashing with an Nth Metal Golem.

 

[Deagonx]

That’s not what Post-Flashpoint 4-Bs scale to, they scale to Mogo illuminating the universe and Orion destroying solar systems by clashing with an Nth Metal Golem.

My mistake. Regardless, Swamp Thing is not several infinites above this. It's completely unrealistic to envision Swamp Thing that way, it's entirely out of line with how he's portrayed in any of these storylines.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Deagonx @ImmortalDread @Eficiente @Elizio33 @PrinceofPein

Would you please be willing to compile ALL of our available counter-evidence feats for the Superman-level characters, including images and issue references, into a single wiki blog post for easier overview please? I would greatly appreciate the help, and you are obviously allowed to collaborate with each other in this regard.

This would include all of the initially listed counter-feats early in this thread as well as the series of blog posts that I linked to later here.

I removed this one too.

Here is my sandbox, it's not finished yet, since I am also including other feats (should be finished today)

ImmortalDread/Supermanfeats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Will work on this sandbox. I will give the updates, after I finish it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, but for you to bring it up now it'd need to be an actual ongoing issue and everyone's nice right now, so.

You have not been polite and reasonable in this thread.

Can we wait for Emirp's post in that regard? I was planning to go through the feats myself but I think it's good to wait for that

I would prefer if our counter-evidence examples are properly organised first as well.

Deagonx listed all of the anti-feats he thinks are legitimate and I started commenting about that.

He listed a few of them. There are a lot of them available in sum total, and we need them all properly listed in a single location.

Aye, so he'd upscale from his Post-Crisis version if anything.

Yes, as I have stated several times, I am fine with scaling a sun-dipped end of the Post-Crisis era Superman to 3-A and the later Rebirth version of the character to 3-A or High 3-A without a sun-dip, but all of the other feats that I have been shown seemed far more unreliable/less self-evident than the ones that we initially listed and all of the other ones listed in the series of blogs that I linked to.

And yet several of you remain completely inflexible and very rude and disrespectful, and simultaneously somehow categorise me as being more rigid than you are regarding this issue. I am just strict regarding proper reliability. Meaning that I want upgrades to be based on explicit self-evident feats, not extremely vague or arguable ones, or tiering based on everybody can fight everybody plot-induced stupidity chain-scaling.