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Low 6b ver for both
Speed equal
SBA
Who takes this ?
Speed equal
SBA
Who takes this ?
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Chandler vs Zagred
- Thread starter Raito_Utopia
- Start date
- 386
- 43
Mmmm….
These two characters are so similar in stats and abilities that it is very hard for me to see how this battle could be anything other than inconclusive. I mean, if you inspect the characters very closely, they both do virtually the same things. Notable differences are that Chandler has only Mid Regenerationn will Zagred has at least High-Mid, but Zagred has only 1 heart while Chandler has 7. But I don't think these are significant enough to change anything.
These two characters are so similar in stats and abilities that it is very hard for me to see how this battle could be anything other than inconclusive. I mean, if you inspect the characters very closely, they both do virtually the same things. Notable differences are that Chandler has only Mid Regenerationn will Zagred has at least High-Mid, but Zagred has only 1 heart while Chandler has 7. But I don't think these are significant enough to change anything.
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Chandler has a few one-shot abilities if he decides to use them, namely soul manipulation which Zagred has no real answer to and it's in character for him to use Absolute Order. Chandler also makes good use of Power Nullification which could take out a good deal of Zagred. I think I'll go with him.
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I don't think Absolute Order will do much against Zagred, since he cannot be killed by ordinary means anyway, and he is not human. And for that same reason, I'm not sure if Soul Extraction will work on Zagred, since it has never been really used against a demon in NNT.
Also, Zagred himself has a lot of power nullification. You could argue that his power nullification and kotodama magic can prevent him from getting his soul absorbed, since even when he is a disembodied soul, his soul is still sentient and capable of using magic and speech. All he needs to do is hold his soul in place, which is a feat he has been shown capable of doing with multiple souls, and then simply incarnate into his old body again.
Also, Zagred himself has a lot of power nullification. You could argue that his power nullification and kotodama magic can prevent him from getting his soul absorbed, since even when he is a disembodied soul, his soul is still sentient and capable of using magic and speech. All he needs to do is hold his soul in place, which is a feat he has been shown capable of doing with multiple souls, and then simply incarnate into his old body again.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
Zagred can still use his magic even when he's out of his body, he also has possession so removing his soul his pretty much a bad decision. As for Death Manip, has it ever worked on Demons? Because Gowther survived it due to not being human.
Also, how does the target die from Absolue Ordrer exactly, is your soul destroyed or anything? If not, Zagred should be able to survive it.
Also, how does the target die from Absolue Ordrer exactly, is your soul destroyed or anything? If not, Zagred should be able to survive it.
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Absolute Order of a high class demon should work on other demons. There's no real reason it should not. Gowther only survived because he's a doll.
It has. It's been used against Meliodas but since he has an high resistance in the thousands Melascula had to use an invocation to extract it. So soul hax in verse works against demons.
I mention Power Nullification because Absolute Cancel and Full Counter will be extremely troublesome for Zagred to deal with.
Demons of high class can extract dozens of souls at once and Chandler who is even more powerful than Melacula who can handle thousands of souls at once should be able to extract Zagred's and consume it. This will not allow for possession because once consumed the soul is erased.
It has. It's been used against Meliodas but since he has an high resistance in the thousands Melascula had to use an invocation to extract it. So soul hax in verse works against demons.
I mention Power Nullification because Absolute Cancel and Full Counter will be extremely troublesome for Zagred to deal with.
Demons of high class can extract dozens of souls at once and Chandler who is even more powerful than Melacula who can handle thousands of souls at once should be able to extract Zagred's and consume it. This will not allow for possession because once consumed the soul is erased.
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Absolute Cancel won't work then as in putting Zagred down but it will bind him whenever he tries to attack Chandler.
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Absolute Order of a high class demon should work on other demons. There's no real reason it should not. Gowther only survived because he's a doll.
I see your point, but unless there are feats supporting it, I'm probably going to remain unconvinced about it working on lower-ranking demons. Regardless, Zagred is a high class demon within his verse. Specifically, he is considered one of the highest-ranking demons in his verse, only so far stated to rank below the Dark Triad, possibly even on par, of whom the leader is the Demon King Lucifero.
Also, I know that Gowther is a doll, but the point of my comment is that him being a doll has implications that can be extrapolated to other beings with similar characteristics and attributes. Otherwise, I think it would be considered a no-limits fallacy. It is unclear what is it about being a doll that granted Gowther resistance to this spell, but if it has to do with the fact that Gowther basically doesn't need to have any type of biological functions satisfied, then Zagred fits the bill.
It has. It's been used against Meliodas but since he has an high resistance in the thousands Melascula had to use an invocation to extract it. So soul hax in verse works against demons.
I don't actually recall seeing this in the manga, but even if it does work against Meliodas, this is not too big an issue for Zagred, as we discuss. Zagred can continue fighting even as a disembodied soul, and he can suspend his soul in place, which is going to make it difficult for Chandler to eat it. Does it completely counter it? No, but I don't think this is a decisive factor, let alone a stomp-cause. My point is that it cannot be said that Zagred has no answer to this.
I mention Power Nullification because Absolute Cancel and Full Counter will be extremely troublesome for Zagred to deal with.
This is true to some extent, but Zagred can also invoke physical attacks, which are not affected by Absolute Cancel or Full Counter. Either way, these techniques are effective for Chandler as a defense tool, but they will not be helpful as an offensive tool since Zagred's kotodama magic can nullify attacks from Chandler as well, via "Vanish", "Iron Spear," and such other spells. I also wonder if Absolute Cancel will work against things like telekinesis and stuff, especially since they are activated by Zagred uttering phrases such as "Come Here" and such.
Demons of high class can extract dozens of souls at once and Chandler who is even more powerful than Melacula who can handle thousands of souls at once should be able to extract Zagred's and consume it. This will not allow for possession because once consumed the soul is erased.
This assuming he consumes it. As I said earlier, because Zagred can suspend his soul in place and move around as disembodied soul (he was a disembodied soul for hundreds of years before acquiring a body, and this is how he combatted people). And Chandler is going to need to be focusing on deleting attacks from Zagred, so he won't be able to focus on simply consuming the soul. This is true, especially because Zagred has the potential to one-shot Chandler via hax, using "Iron Spears" to destroy all 7 hearts at once. Of course, Absolute Cancel can nullify this spell, but once Zagred realizes that Chandler is going to be forced to address this spell, he will most likely spam it. All this means is that consuming Zagred's soul post extraction is going to be a lot more difficult than you realize, and possibly not the most optimal route for winning for Zagred.
Absolute Cancel won't work then as in putting Zagred down but it will bind him whenever he tries to attack Chandler.
Correct. This is why I said this battle is inconclusive. They are both going to constantly be cancelling each other's spells and resisting each other's techniques, and whenever attacks do hit, they will simply regenerate. It can easily go either way, and it will reduce to whoever makes a mistake first losing.
I see your point, but unless there are feats supporting it, I'm probably going to remain unconvinced about it working on lower-ranking demons. Regardless, Zagred is a high class demon within his verse. Specifically, he is considered one of the highest-ranking demons in his verse, only so far stated to rank below the Dark Triad, possibly even on par, of whom the leader is the Demon King Lucifero.
Also, I know that Gowther is a doll, but the point of my comment is that him being a doll has implications that can be extrapolated to other beings with similar characteristics and attributes. Otherwise, I think it would be considered a no-limits fallacy. It is unclear what is it about being a doll that granted Gowther resistance to this spell, but if it has to do with the fact that Gowther basically doesn't need to have any type of biological functions satisfied, then Zagred fits the bill.
It has. It's been used against Meliodas but since he has an high resistance in the thousands Melascula had to use an invocation to extract it. So soul hax in verse works against demons.
I don't actually recall seeing this in the manga, but even if it does work against Meliodas, this is not too big an issue for Zagred, as we discuss. Zagred can continue fighting even as a disembodied soul, and he can suspend his soul in place, which is going to make it difficult for Chandler to eat it. Does it completely counter it? No, but I don't think this is a decisive factor, let alone a stomp-cause. My point is that it cannot be said that Zagred has no answer to this.
I mention Power Nullification because Absolute Cancel and Full Counter will be extremely troublesome for Zagred to deal with.
This is true to some extent, but Zagred can also invoke physical attacks, which are not affected by Absolute Cancel or Full Counter. Either way, these techniques are effective for Chandler as a defense tool, but they will not be helpful as an offensive tool since Zagred's kotodama magic can nullify attacks from Chandler as well, via "Vanish", "Iron Spear," and such other spells. I also wonder if Absolute Cancel will work against things like telekinesis and stuff, especially since they are activated by Zagred uttering phrases such as "Come Here" and such.
Demons of high class can extract dozens of souls at once and Chandler who is even more powerful than Melacula who can handle thousands of souls at once should be able to extract Zagred's and consume it. This will not allow for possession because once consumed the soul is erased.
This assuming he consumes it. As I said earlier, because Zagred can suspend his soul in place and move around as disembodied soul (he was a disembodied soul for hundreds of years before acquiring a body, and this is how he combatted people). And Chandler is going to need to be focusing on deleting attacks from Zagred, so he won't be able to focus on simply consuming the soul. This is true, especially because Zagred has the potential to one-shot Chandler via hax, using "Iron Spears" to destroy all 7 hearts at once. Of course, Absolute Cancel can nullify this spell, but once Zagred realizes that Chandler is going to be forced to address this spell, he will most likely spam it. All this means is that consuming Zagred's soul post extraction is going to be a lot more difficult than you realize, and possibly not the most optimal route for winning for Zagred.
Absolute Cancel won't work then as in putting Zagred down but it will bind him whenever he tries to attack Chandler.
Correct. This is why I said this battle is inconclusive. They are both going to constantly be cancelling each other's spells and resisting each other's techniques, and whenever attacks do hit, they will simply regenerate. It can easily go either way, and it will reduce to whoever makes a mistake first losing.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
Actually, there's no reason to assume it should work on demons if it never did. Afaik, AO only worked on humans, further evidence Gowther survived it since he wasn't human. Even if it works, Zagred can still fight as a soul.
Zagred already dealt with Asta, who nulls magic too and can even revert cause and effects of magic. He can also create Matter so Absolute Cancel won't play a big role in this battle.
Zagred was able to suspend and corrupt hundreds of souls with one spell too so they are comparable.
As for the possession part, Extracting souls =/= resisting Possesion (if I read correctly).
While Chandler needs to eat the soul to kill Zagred, Zagred just needs to enter in contact with Chandler to possess him.
Zagred already dealt with Asta, who nulls magic too and can even revert cause and effects of magic. He can also create Matter so Absolute Cancel won't play a big role in this battle.
Zagred was able to suspend and corrupt hundreds of souls with one spell too so they are comparable.
As for the possession part, Extracting souls =/= resisting Possesion (if I read correctly).
While Chandler needs to eat the soul to kill Zagred, Zagred just needs to enter in contact with Chandler to possess him.
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Let me correct myself because I incorrectly stated something. I said Zagred can live without having any biological functions satisfied, but this is only mostly true. He does have a heart. I have no idea if this heart is corporeal or not, but it can be destroyed by arcane stage magic and anti-magic energy, which is how Asta defeated him. Destroying this heart is a winning condition for Chandler. However, given as to how it is unlikely Zagred will ever be hit by a spell, not to mention that he can move his heart around and that he can regenerate the rest of his body from said heart if he does get hit, I would say it is unlikely for Chandler to achieve this, unless Zagred made some sort of mistake in the fight. But this feeds back into what I said earlier: whoever makes the first big mistake first loses the battle, so it still feeds into my inconclusive vote.
If Absolute Order kills the victim specifically via destroying or stopping the hearts of the victim, then you could make an argument that this would work on Zagred. However, even in that case, you can make the argument that Zagred can dispel it by saying "Vanish," since he can make magical things as well as physical things disappear. While it is stated that smearing the symbol itself does not nullify Absolute Order, it is never stated that outright removing it by removing the body part or simply removing it from existence would not nullify it. I think the ambiguity surrounding the workings of this spell is also a reason to determine that any outcome from using it is uncertain.
If Absolute Order kills the victim specifically via destroying or stopping the hearts of the victim, then you could make an argument that this would work on Zagred. However, even in that case, you can make the argument that Zagred can dispel it by saying "Vanish," since he can make magical things as well as physical things disappear. While it is stated that smearing the symbol itself does not nullify Absolute Order, it is never stated that outright removing it by removing the body part or simply removing it from existence would not nullify it. I think the ambiguity surrounding the workings of this spell is also a reason to determine that any outcome from using it is uncertain.
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Actually, I don't think he can regenerate his heart. IIRC, his heart was only touched once in the entire battle, and that was when Asta slashed it. When Asta stabbed him, he missed the heart.Epsilon R said:
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
His hear was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation, when he first stabbed Zagred, he couldn't regenerate. He even has the scar asta left him.
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After reading the arguments I agree with inconclusive.
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No, his heart wasn't destroyed. If you look closely at page 8 of chapter 209, right after the second double-page, you can see that the heart was clearly intact, as Zagred managed to move it to the right-side of his body, while Asta stabbed him on the left-side of his body. Yes, he did leave a scar, as per the scan you showed me, but that scar was simply there because the anti-magic was preventing Zagred from healing that part of his body, it had nothing to do with his heart.
In fact, by your reasoning, if Asta had destroyed his heart once, and Zagred managed to regenerate it, then I fail to see why he would have failed to regenerate the second time it was destroyed. If there was a scar due to the anti-magic preventing him from regenerating the body, then said anti-magic should have prevented him from healing the heart as well within that same scene. However, because the scene shows that Asta did not in fact hit his heart, this explains why he stayed alive. And this is consistent with him being unable to regenerate his heart when it did hit him and kill him for good: he never had regenerated the heart in the first place because Asta missed. When taking all the scenes into account and putting them into proper context, it shows that Zagred cannot heal his heart, and if Asta had not missed the first time around, then Zagred would have died right then and there in chapter 209.
If he had been able to regenerate the first time and not the second the time, then this would be an inconsistency, the result of PIS, in which case this would have to be considered an outlier for Asta, and the scaling in his profile would have to be changed accordingly. This is especially true when considering the fact that the only type of magic or energy that can destroy his heart is arcane stage magic and anti-magic, which is part of the reason the heart was able to completely ignore the AP from the attack performed by Licht + All Elves.
In fact, by your reasoning, if Asta had destroyed his heart once, and Zagred managed to regenerate it, then I fail to see why he would have failed to regenerate the second time it was destroyed. If there was a scar due to the anti-magic preventing him from regenerating the body, then said anti-magic should have prevented him from healing the heart as well within that same scene. However, because the scene shows that Asta did not in fact hit his heart, this explains why he stayed alive. And this is consistent with him being unable to regenerate his heart when it did hit him and kill him for good: he never had regenerated the heart in the first place because Asta missed. When taking all the scenes into account and putting them into proper context, it shows that Zagred cannot heal his heart, and if Asta had not missed the first time around, then Zagred would have died right then and there in chapter 209.
If he had been able to regenerate the first time and not the second the time, then this would be an inconsistency, the result of PIS, in which case this would have to be considered an outlier for Asta, and the scaling in his profile would have to be changed accordingly. This is especially true when considering the fact that the only type of magic or energy that can destroy his heart is arcane stage magic and anti-magic, which is part of the reason the heart was able to completely ignore the AP from the attack performed by Licht + All Elves.
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So far, the vote count is
Zagred: 0
Chandler: 0
Inconclusive: 2
Zagred: 0
Chandler: 0
Inconclusive: 2
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- Thread starter
- #20
I forgot this thing exists ,lol.
Chanler :0
Zagred : 1
Inconclusive: 2.
Chanler :0
Zagred : 1
Inconclusive: 2.
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You definitely did say that. Let me quote you: His heart was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation...Epsilon R said:
I'm not denying that it has regen negation. However, that very same comment very explicitly claims Zagred's heart was destroyed by Asta, which it wasn't, and in the prior comment I responded to, you claimed explicitly that Zagred can regenerate his heart, which isn't true. There is just no evidence suggesting he can. If it were true, then arcane stage magic would be insufficient to kill him, and only anti-magic explicitly would be able to do the job, which contradicts what has already been established in the series. If this is true with feats to support it, then his profile should have Low-High Regenerationn instead of High-Mid. Anyhow, I digress.
Even if you were correct - which you aren't - and even if the only way to kill Zagred is to destroy his heart with an attack that explicitly negates regen - which is inconsistent with what we know about the character, and there is no evidence for it - then that's not a huge issue. Chandler can negate regen via absolute cancel and what not, not to mention that Chandler's magic satisfies the definition of arcane stage, since he himself is a demon. My point is that destroying Zagred's heart is still a winning condition for Chandler. It's just not one that he can achieve easily in a realistic battle between the two of them. Same with eating Zagred's soul. Chandler has multiple winning conditions, as does Zagred. They're just not easily achievable, and Zagred would realistically have to run out of mana or make a mistake. This is unlikely, given his stats, though.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
...
"You definitely did say that. Let me quote you: His heart was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation..."
I never said his heart was destroyed When asta stabbed him the first time, never did I say he regenerated his heart, don't make me say what I didn't.
That quoted sentence was talking about Asta when he landed the final hit on Zagred. My first post was this:
"His hear was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation, when he first stabbed Zagred, he couldn't regenerate. He even has the scar asta left him."
Basically I was just saying that even when he missed his heart, Asta still left a scar on Zagred which couldn't regenerate it, meaning he has Regen Negation.
"you claimed explicitly that Zagred can regenerate his heart, which isn't true"
There's no reason to assume he can't regenerate his heart when he regenerated his entire body.
"If it were true, then arcane stage magic would be insufficient to kill him, and only anti-magic explicitly would be able to do the job, which contradicts what has already been established in the series."
No. Arcane mages are just mage with unnatural/inexplicable power, at best, their power are effective against demons. No one ever said they could kill devils, by that (false) logic, Grey could kill Dante which is stupid.
"Even if you were correct - which you aren't - and even if the only way to kill Zagred is to destroy his heart with an attack that explicitly negates regen - which is inconsistent with what we know about the character, and there is no evidence for it"
Again I never said any of that-...I don't understand what you're saying at this point.
"Chandler can negate regen via absolute cancel and what not, not to mention that Chandler's magic satisfies the definition of arcane stage, since he himself is a demon"
Feats of him doing that? Also does his regen Negation negate High-Mid+ Regenerationn? And again, Asta's powernull > Absolute Cancel
Last thing, just because he's a demon doesn't make him arcane. Otherwise, Vanica and the Dark disciples would all be arcane
"You definitely did say that. Let me quote you: His heart was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation..."
I never said his heart was destroyed When asta stabbed him the first time, never did I say he regenerated his heart, don't make me say what I didn't.
That quoted sentence was talking about Asta when he landed the final hit on Zagred. My first post was this:
"His hear was destroyed by Asta's Black Divider which has some sort of regen negation, when he first stabbed Zagred, he couldn't regenerate. He even has the scar asta left him."
Basically I was just saying that even when he missed his heart, Asta still left a scar on Zagred which couldn't regenerate it, meaning he has Regen Negation.
"you claimed explicitly that Zagred can regenerate his heart, which isn't true"
There's no reason to assume he can't regenerate his heart when he regenerated his entire body.
"If it were true, then arcane stage magic would be insufficient to kill him, and only anti-magic explicitly would be able to do the job, which contradicts what has already been established in the series."
No. Arcane mages are just mage with unnatural/inexplicable power, at best, their power are effective against demons. No one ever said they could kill devils, by that (false) logic, Grey could kill Dante which is stupid.
"Even if you were correct - which you aren't - and even if the only way to kill Zagred is to destroy his heart with an attack that explicitly negates regen - which is inconsistent with what we know about the character, and there is no evidence for it"
Again I never said any of that-...I don't understand what you're saying at this point.
"Chandler can negate regen via absolute cancel and what not, not to mention that Chandler's magic satisfies the definition of arcane stage, since he himself is a demon"
Feats of him doing that? Also does his regen Negation negate High-Mid+ Regenerationn? And again, Asta's powernull > Absolute Cancel
Last thing, just because he's a demon doesn't make him arcane. Otherwise, Vanica and the Dark disciples would all be arcane
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There's no reason to assume he can't regenerate his heart when he regenerated his entire body.
Yes, there is. There is the fact that his heart is demonstrably different from the rest of his body, and the fact that it was stated that destroying his heart was necessary to defeat him. And once again, if he could regenerate even his heart, he would need to have a higher tier of Regenerationn than what is stated in his profile, and it would imply most arcane stage mages do not stand a chance against him, which is demonstrably false, because it was stated mages like Yami can destroy devils, and we even saw Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation. So much so, it was implied that if Yami had destroyed the heart with Dimensional Slash, the fight would have been over.
No. Arcane mages are just mage with unnatural/inexplicable power, at best, their power are effective against demons. No one ever said they could kill devils, by that (false) logic, Grey could kill Dante which is stupid.
Yes, they did say it, Loropechika explicitly stated this when she was explaining what arcane stage magic is and why it is important. I've debunked the claim that arcane stage magic simply means "being effective against devils' elsewhere, especially because Loropechika also stated stage 0 and stage 1 mages can fight relatively well against devils, which would be impossible if spells were ineffective against them. The defining feature of arcane stage is being able to finish them off, as Loropechika explained. So, no, merely affecting a devil does not make one arcane. Besides, by that argument, Licht and Lumiere would have to be arcane, which has never been stated.
And saying Grey cannot kill Dante is devoid of logic. Transformation magic allows her to change the properties of magic spells and objects, there is nothing that prohibits her from transforming other magic into arcane magic. She lacks the skill to plausibly fight well against Dante, but that does not affect her implied ability to finish a devil off. Also, Dante is not a devil, he is merely devil-possessed. I don't know everyone gets those two things confused. What, so Asta himself is a devil? That's absolute ridiculous. That's more ridiculous than claiming Grey can defeat Dante. It really is.
Feats of him doing that? Also does his regen Negation negate High-Mid+ Regenerationn? And again, Asta's powernull > Absolute Cancel
That's just false. There is not a thing that Asta can do that Absolute Cancel cannot do.
Last thing, just because he's a demon doesn't make him arcane. Otherwise, Vanica and the Dark disciples would all be arcane
By your own argument, he is arcane, especially since he can defy the laws of nature and can affect and kill other demons, in his own verse. Also, in Black Clover, it has been stated that if your magic is affected by forbidden magic, then it makes you arcane. That is actually the reason Loropechika gave for stating that Nero/Secré is arcane, even though she is otherwise stage 6. The idea that Vanica is not arcane is thus entirely absurd, and not an idea you can convince me of unless they state she is not arcane. And if they ever did state she is not, I would take that as a lack of consistent writing on Tabata's part. Anyhow, you have provided no arguments explaining why Chandler is unable to counter kotodama magic and countering Zagred after saying "Heal" upon his heart being destroyed, under the assumption that this is even possible, although again, the evidence very strongly suggests against it. And the claim that he cannot because Asta's power null is stronger, well firstly, there is no evidence for that, and second of all, that is a non sequitur fallacy, since Asta's power null being better doesn't imply Chandler cannot stop the spell. That's just fallacious at best.
I really don't know what else to tell you. You're making claims not supported by feats or statements, and yet won't take statements and feats when I clarify that they are there to support my stance. If that's how the route you want to go, then fine, go that route. But let me just point out that nobody is going to be convinced by that. And if that's fine by you, then I won't try to convince you, but the evidence is clear and anyone else reading this thread will make up their minds when they read this. And if you're going to continue saying you don't understand what I'm saying as you have already done multiple times, then fine by me too. It's not going to change anything. Anyhow, I'm unsubscribing from this thread, I already gave my vote and justified it to the death.
Yes, there is. There is the fact that his heart is demonstrably different from the rest of his body, and the fact that it was stated that destroying his heart was necessary to defeat him. And once again, if he could regenerate even his heart, he would need to have a higher tier of Regenerationn than what is stated in his profile, and it would imply most arcane stage mages do not stand a chance against him, which is demonstrably false, because it was stated mages like Yami can destroy devils, and we even saw Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation. So much so, it was implied that if Yami had destroyed the heart with Dimensional Slash, the fight would have been over.
No. Arcane mages are just mage with unnatural/inexplicable power, at best, their power are effective against demons. No one ever said they could kill devils, by that (false) logic, Grey could kill Dante which is stupid.
Yes, they did say it, Loropechika explicitly stated this when she was explaining what arcane stage magic is and why it is important. I've debunked the claim that arcane stage magic simply means "being effective against devils' elsewhere, especially because Loropechika also stated stage 0 and stage 1 mages can fight relatively well against devils, which would be impossible if spells were ineffective against them. The defining feature of arcane stage is being able to finish them off, as Loropechika explained. So, no, merely affecting a devil does not make one arcane. Besides, by that argument, Licht and Lumiere would have to be arcane, which has never been stated.
And saying Grey cannot kill Dante is devoid of logic. Transformation magic allows her to change the properties of magic spells and objects, there is nothing that prohibits her from transforming other magic into arcane magic. She lacks the skill to plausibly fight well against Dante, but that does not affect her implied ability to finish a devil off. Also, Dante is not a devil, he is merely devil-possessed. I don't know everyone gets those two things confused. What, so Asta himself is a devil? That's absolute ridiculous. That's more ridiculous than claiming Grey can defeat Dante. It really is.
Feats of him doing that? Also does his regen Negation negate High-Mid+ Regenerationn? And again, Asta's powernull > Absolute Cancel
That's just false. There is not a thing that Asta can do that Absolute Cancel cannot do.
Last thing, just because he's a demon doesn't make him arcane. Otherwise, Vanica and the Dark disciples would all be arcane
By your own argument, he is arcane, especially since he can defy the laws of nature and can affect and kill other demons, in his own verse. Also, in Black Clover, it has been stated that if your magic is affected by forbidden magic, then it makes you arcane. That is actually the reason Loropechika gave for stating that Nero/Secré is arcane, even though she is otherwise stage 6. The idea that Vanica is not arcane is thus entirely absurd, and not an idea you can convince me of unless they state she is not arcane. And if they ever did state she is not, I would take that as a lack of consistent writing on Tabata's part. Anyhow, you have provided no arguments explaining why Chandler is unable to counter kotodama magic and countering Zagred after saying "Heal" upon his heart being destroyed, under the assumption that this is even possible, although again, the evidence very strongly suggests against it. And the claim that he cannot because Asta's power null is stronger, well firstly, there is no evidence for that, and second of all, that is a non sequitur fallacy, since Asta's power null being better doesn't imply Chandler cannot stop the spell. That's just fallacious at best.
I really don't know what else to tell you. You're making claims not supported by feats or statements, and yet won't take statements and feats when I clarify that they are there to support my stance. If that's how the route you want to go, then fine, go that route. But let me just point out that nobody is going to be convinced by that. And if that's fine by you, then I won't try to convince you, but the evidence is clear and anyone else reading this thread will make up their minds when they read this. And if you're going to continue saying you don't understand what I'm saying as you have already done multiple times, then fine by me too. It's not going to change anything. Anyhow, I'm unsubscribing from this thread, I already gave my vote and justified it to the death.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
Yes, there is. There is the fact that his heart is demonstrably different from the rest of his body, and the fact that it was stated that destroying his heart was necessary to defeat him.
Can you link the page where it was stated that destroying his heart was necessary to defeat him? While you're at it, please link the page where his heart was stated to be different than his body.
"And once again, if he could regenerate even his heart, he would need to have a higher tier of Regenerationn than what is stated in his profile"
You don't need Low-High Regenerationn to regenerate your heart so what's your point?
and it would imply most arcane stage mages do not stand a chance against him, which is demonstrably false, because it was stated mages like Yami can destroy devils, and we even saw Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation. So much so, it was implied that if Yami had destroyed the heart with Dimensional Slash, the fight would have been over.
Listen. First, just because he can regenerate his heart doesn't mean he can't be defeated. Second, Yami only harmed Zagred because he had the AP to do so, that has nothing to do with him being arcane. Also: "Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation", you know that what you're saying makes no sense, right? Being able to regenerate doesn't make you unable to be hurt. Ba was hurt by multiple attacks yet he could still regenerate.
Yes, they did say it, Loropechika explicitly stated this when she was explaining what arcane stage magic is and why it is important. I've debunked the claim that arcane stage magic simply means "being effective against devils' elsewhere, especially because Loropechika also stated stage 0 and stage 1 mages can fight relatively well against devils, which would be impossible if spells were ineffective against them. The defining feature of arcane stage is being able to finish them off, as Loropechika explained. So, no, merely affecting a devil does not make one arcane. Besides, by that argument, Licht and Lumiere would have to be arcane, which has never been stated.
By your own argument, he is arcane, especially since he can defy the laws of nature and can affect and kill other demons, in his own verse. Also, in Black Clover, it has been stated that if your magic is affected by forbidden magic, then it makes you arcane. That is actually the reason Loropechika gave for stating that Nero/Secré is arcane, even though she is otherwise stage 6.
This is what she said: "You are able to manifest things like chain and steel, use unnatural magic, even magic that manipulates space. And from those kinds of magic, people who hold the potential to kill a demon came to be."
Assuming she was indeed referring to arcane mages, that means they can kill a demon thanks to their hax and not strength alone. Secré can seal souls with forbidden magic, Asta has Causality Manip, Vanessa manipulates Fate, Yami has Dura Negation, William has absorption and Julius has Time Manip. Chandler doesn't even have similar abilities to consider him an arcane (Except Reality Warping which he only uses to bring night, and Death Manipulation which won't work on Zagred like I said earlier). Kill a demon with strength alone doesn't make Chandler arcane (you said it yourself when you said Lumi├¿re wasn't arcane: He can kill a demon with power alone but doesn't have hax), and just because he can kill a demon on his own verse (Which is most likely weaker than him) doesn't mean he can kill a demon in the BC verse. That's like saying Tanjiro could kill Zagred because he can kill demons in his verse
"And saying Grey cannot kill Dante is devoid of logic. Transformation magic allows her to change the properties of magic spells and objects, there is nothing that prohibits her from transforming other magic into arcane magic. She lacks the skill to plausibly fight well against Dante, but that does not affect her implied ability to finish a devil off. Also, Dante is not a devil, he is merely devil-possessed. I don't know everyone gets those two things confused. What, so Asta himself is a devil? That's absolute ridiculous. That's more ridiculous than claiming Grey can defeat Dante. It really is."
I'm arguing with someone saying that current Grey can defeat Dante so I won't waste my time here. Even if you talk about her latent abilities, you're just falling into assumptions since she never did nor displayed the ability to do so.
That's just false. There is not a thing that Asta can do that Absolute Cancel cannot do.
I don't know, can Absolute Cancel negate reincarnation? Can Absolute Cancel negate curses? Can Absolute Cancel negate magic by severing the cause and effect relationship? Also you skipped the part where I asked you to show Absolute Cancel negating High-Mid+ Regenerationn.
The idea that Vanica is not arcane is thus entirely absurd, and not an idea you can convince me of unless they state she is not arcane.
She's Stage 0: https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0240-003.png
"And if they ever did state she is not, I would take that as a lack of consistent writing on Tabata's part."
Now this is ridiculous, Tabata never even said she was Arcane neither that using demonic powers makes you arcane so stop with the fallacy.
The only part of this wall of text that actually Matters
ANYWAYS, all I was saying since the beginning was that he should be able to regenerate his heart but you misinterpreted it and made me say things I clearly didn't.
Even if he can't regenerate his heart, Zagred is more intelligent, more versatile, has better regen as well as Type 2 immortality, possession, corruption, and dealt with someone using a better powernull (And before you try to debate it, that's doesn't matter anyway because Zagred can create matter).
What are Chandler's wincons? Him eating his soul (correct), destroying Zagred's Heart (Which was unscathed after an attack that outclasses Chandler's AP? Not sure...) and neg his regen with Absolute Cancel (Has he ever nullified High-Mid regen, let alone any regen at all, with this spell?)
I don't see how Zagred loses, even inconclusive seems unlikely.
Also please, make shorter posts next time
Can you link the page where it was stated that destroying his heart was necessary to defeat him? While you're at it, please link the page where his heart was stated to be different than his body.
"And once again, if he could regenerate even his heart, he would need to have a higher tier of Regenerationn than what is stated in his profile"
You don't need Low-High Regenerationn to regenerate your heart so what's your point?
and it would imply most arcane stage mages do not stand a chance against him, which is demonstrably false, because it was stated mages like Yami can destroy devils, and we even saw Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation. So much so, it was implied that if Yami had destroyed the heart with Dimensional Slash, the fight would have been over.
Listen. First, just because he can regenerate his heart doesn't mean he can't be defeated. Second, Yami only harmed Zagred because he had the AP to do so, that has nothing to do with him being arcane. Also: "Yami directly hurt the devil, despite his lack of regen negation", you know that what you're saying makes no sense, right? Being able to regenerate doesn't make you unable to be hurt. Ba was hurt by multiple attacks yet he could still regenerate.
Yes, they did say it, Loropechika explicitly stated this when she was explaining what arcane stage magic is and why it is important. I've debunked the claim that arcane stage magic simply means "being effective against devils' elsewhere, especially because Loropechika also stated stage 0 and stage 1 mages can fight relatively well against devils, which would be impossible if spells were ineffective against them. The defining feature of arcane stage is being able to finish them off, as Loropechika explained. So, no, merely affecting a devil does not make one arcane. Besides, by that argument, Licht and Lumiere would have to be arcane, which has never been stated.
By your own argument, he is arcane, especially since he can defy the laws of nature and can affect and kill other demons, in his own verse. Also, in Black Clover, it has been stated that if your magic is affected by forbidden magic, then it makes you arcane. That is actually the reason Loropechika gave for stating that Nero/Secré is arcane, even though she is otherwise stage 6.
This is what she said: "You are able to manifest things like chain and steel, use unnatural magic, even magic that manipulates space. And from those kinds of magic, people who hold the potential to kill a demon came to be."
Assuming she was indeed referring to arcane mages, that means they can kill a demon thanks to their hax and not strength alone. Secré can seal souls with forbidden magic, Asta has Causality Manip, Vanessa manipulates Fate, Yami has Dura Negation, William has absorption and Julius has Time Manip. Chandler doesn't even have similar abilities to consider him an arcane (Except Reality Warping which he only uses to bring night, and Death Manipulation which won't work on Zagred like I said earlier). Kill a demon with strength alone doesn't make Chandler arcane (you said it yourself when you said Lumi├¿re wasn't arcane: He can kill a demon with power alone but doesn't have hax), and just because he can kill a demon on his own verse (Which is most likely weaker than him) doesn't mean he can kill a demon in the BC verse. That's like saying Tanjiro could kill Zagred because he can kill demons in his verse
"And saying Grey cannot kill Dante is devoid of logic. Transformation magic allows her to change the properties of magic spells and objects, there is nothing that prohibits her from transforming other magic into arcane magic. She lacks the skill to plausibly fight well against Dante, but that does not affect her implied ability to finish a devil off. Also, Dante is not a devil, he is merely devil-possessed. I don't know everyone gets those two things confused. What, so Asta himself is a devil? That's absolute ridiculous. That's more ridiculous than claiming Grey can defeat Dante. It really is."
I'm arguing with someone saying that current Grey can defeat Dante so I won't waste my time here. Even if you talk about her latent abilities, you're just falling into assumptions since she never did nor displayed the ability to do so.
That's just false. There is not a thing that Asta can do that Absolute Cancel cannot do.
I don't know, can Absolute Cancel negate reincarnation? Can Absolute Cancel negate curses? Can Absolute Cancel negate magic by severing the cause and effect relationship? Also you skipped the part where I asked you to show Absolute Cancel negating High-Mid+ Regenerationn.
The idea that Vanica is not arcane is thus entirely absurd, and not an idea you can convince me of unless they state she is not arcane.
She's Stage 0: https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0240-003.png
"And if they ever did state she is not, I would take that as a lack of consistent writing on Tabata's part."
Now this is ridiculous, Tabata never even said she was Arcane neither that using demonic powers makes you arcane so stop with the fallacy.
The only part of this wall of text that actually Matters
ANYWAYS, all I was saying since the beginning was that he should be able to regenerate his heart but you misinterpreted it and made me say things I clearly didn't.
Even if he can't regenerate his heart, Zagred is more intelligent, more versatile, has better regen as well as Type 2 immortality, possession, corruption, and dealt with someone using a better powernull (And before you try to debate it, that's doesn't matter anyway because Zagred can create matter).
What are Chandler's wincons? Him eating his soul (correct), destroying Zagred's Heart (Which was unscathed after an attack that outclasses Chandler's AP? Not sure...) and neg his regen with Absolute Cancel (Has he ever nullified High-Mid regen, let alone any regen at all, with this spell?)
I don't see how Zagred loses, even inconclusive seems unlikely.
Also please, make shorter posts next time
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Zagred being more intelligent doesn't matter, all his standard tactics are just attacking magically not some big brain 300 IQ strategies. More versatile, most of his abilities are rendered useless by power nullification and power reflection that doesn't require the user to attack the magic physically with a sword, creation means what exactly? Possession is hardly a win-con, if he tries to get closer with his soul, he'll just get eaten. Corruption is through what exactly?
Chandler can shrink his actually body and heart and then crush it as well.
Chandler can shrink his actually body and heart and then crush it as well.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
>Most of his abilities are rendered useless.EmperorRorepme said:
Most of his abilities are him creating matter, something that cannot be nulled by Absolute Cancel. And again, he dealt with a better powernull than absolute cancel.
>Possession is hardly a win-con, if he tries to get closer with his soul, he'll just get eaten.
Demon usually holds the souls in their hands before eating them, meaning Zagred has more chances to possess chandler than chandler eating his soul. This is assuming that he has the chance to remove his soul btw.
>Chandler can shrink his actually body and heart and then crush it as well.
How is that supposed to stop Zagred? He can just say "return" and he goes back to his original size. Not only that but his heart was unscathed by an attack that is above Chandler's AP. And this is assuming destroying Zagred's heart actually kills him, which was stated nowhere.
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>Most of his abilities are him creating matter, something that cannot be nulled by Absolute Cancel. And again, he dealt with a better powernull than absolute cancel.
If they are magic-based they can simply be reflected back with Full Counter, Full Counter has reflected multiple magic that creates physical matter such as trees, fire, water, light etc. Asta has to physically hit away his magic which Chandler doesn't have to do with Absolute Cancel and how has he "dealt" with it. His stuff still gets nulled it's just Asta can't null everything he does cause he can't always physical hit stuff with his sword.
>Demon usually holds the souls in their hands before eating them, meaning Zagred has more chances to possess chandler than chandler eating his soul. This is assuming that he has the chance to remove his soul btw.
They also usually just suck souls rather than holding them. Why would holding the soul mean anything in this case and how does it stop Chandler from just putting it in his mouth. Demons can remove souls with a gesture so it won't be hard to remove it and I made that point in counter to possession because obviously Zagred needs to actually get his soul into his body which he won't be able to do. Anyway possession is unlikely to work because in-verse anyone with a strong will and soul cannot be possessed by Fraudri.
>How is that supposed to stop Zagred? He can just say "return" and he goes back to his original size. Not only that but his heart was unscathed by an attack that is above Chandler's AP. And this is assuming destroying Zagred's heart actually kills him, which was stated nowhere.
Because as soon as Chandler uses shrinking hax he can use exterminate ray before Zagred does anything and destroy his heart. His heart will also be shrunken as a result and lose durability. Well there's still an ongoing debate about that so it's not clear cut.
If they are magic-based they can simply be reflected back with Full Counter, Full Counter has reflected multiple magic that creates physical matter such as trees, fire, water, light etc. Asta has to physically hit away his magic which Chandler doesn't have to do with Absolute Cancel and how has he "dealt" with it. His stuff still gets nulled it's just Asta can't null everything he does cause he can't always physical hit stuff with his sword.
>Demon usually holds the souls in their hands before eating them, meaning Zagred has more chances to possess chandler than chandler eating his soul. This is assuming that he has the chance to remove his soul btw.
They also usually just suck souls rather than holding them. Why would holding the soul mean anything in this case and how does it stop Chandler from just putting it in his mouth. Demons can remove souls with a gesture so it won't be hard to remove it and I made that point in counter to possession because obviously Zagred needs to actually get his soul into his body which he won't be able to do. Anyway possession is unlikely to work because in-verse anyone with a strong will and soul cannot be possessed by Fraudri.
>How is that supposed to stop Zagred? He can just say "return" and he goes back to his original size. Not only that but his heart was unscathed by an attack that is above Chandler's AP. And this is assuming destroying Zagred's heart actually kills him, which was stated nowhere.
Because as soon as Chandler uses shrinking hax he can use exterminate ray before Zagred does anything and destroy his heart. His heart will also be shrunken as a result and lose durability. Well there's still an ongoing debate about that so it's not clear cut.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,277
- 1,287
If they are magic-based they can simply be reflected back with Full Counter, Full Counter has reflected multiple magic that creates physical matter such as trees, fire, water, light etc. Asta has to physically hit away his magic which Chandler doesn't have to do with Absolute Cancel and how has he "dealt" with it. His stuff still gets nulled it's just Asta can't null everything he does cause he can't always physical hit stuff with his sword.
It's not magic based though
Because as soon as Chandler uses shrinking hax he can use exterminate ray before Zagred does anything and destroy his heart. His heart will also be shrunken as a result and lose durability. Well there's still an ongoing debate about that so it's not clear cut
What stops Zagred from (vanishing the laser/create a forcefield/reflecting the attack/teleporting) with a word, or even just dodging it? Also, was it stated that they actually lose their durability instead of, just getting small?
It's not magic based though
Because as soon as Chandler uses shrinking hax he can use exterminate ray before Zagred does anything and destroy his heart. His heart will also be shrunken as a result and lose durability. Well there's still an ongoing debate about that so it's not clear cut
What stops Zagred from (vanishing the laser/create a forcefield/reflecting the attack/teleporting) with a word, or even just dodging it? Also, was it stated that they actually lose their durability instead of, just getting small?
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Mind coming over to https://animevice.boards.net/board/3/battles to discussion three battle I created
Zagred Vs. Zeref
Licht, Lumiel Vs. August and Irene
Zagred Vs. Chandler
I kinda need y'all expertise. Please.
Zagred Vs. Zeref
Licht, Lumiel Vs. August and Irene
Zagred Vs. Chandler
I kinda need y'all expertise. Please.
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Can someone summarize the argument?
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