Zagred vs Keiji Mogami

[Planck69]

Mogami has regeneration so high that no level physical attacks would ever work, countless summons as powerful as himself, layered mind control and possession as well as instant life absorption.

Can someone give me a rundown of Zagred's powers?

 

[Robo432343]

Can someone give me a rundown of Zagred's powers?

Zagred can nullify Mogami's TK (this is whats being debated on), suspend souls for centuries and enhance life monsters or some shi

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That's fine, I assumed you meant he was going to use his powers to nullify Mogami's powerset entirely, which would be the specific form of nullification he resist.

thats fine.

Why exactly would he be able to sense psychic energy if that's not something that exists in the Black Clover verse?

He should be able to SEE it

Ghosts don't really have a life force for him to absorb, besides Mogami also can summon thousands of ghosts with layered possession that also works on ghosts. So very unlikely especially with memory reading.

aren't ghosts like... life given form? like.. without it theres no life.

weird. Also Mogami would summon it in a sea of monsters.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mogami has regeneration so high that no level physical attacks would ever work, countless summons as powerful as himself, layered mind control and possession as well as instant life absorption.

Can someone give me a rundown of Zagred's powers?

Aside from what @Robo432343 said which is basically one of his wincon. Zagred can basically speak into existence. That’s how his reality warping works. He uses it to summon, create, erase, move around, heal, etc. He can’t forcibly force someone to die, and his magic has range unless he sends projectile attacks. He can also manipulate his body to form new mouths and his heart is invulnerable to everything except holy, unholy and purifying attacks. Also he can regenerate from just a heart and the only way to kill him is to destroy the heart.

That’s not all but the rest is just fairly important I’m kinda busy irl tho.

 

[Planck69]

OK, that's all well and good but then doesn't Mogami just go "mindhax GG" with a thought?

And for his reality warping, what has he done with it offensively?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

OK, that's all well and good but then doesn't Mogami just go "mindhax GG" with a thought?

Also, Mogami’s mind hax hasn’t been shown to work outside a vessel’s mind scape where he has full control over. He used it against Mob’s consciousness form because he was within his space of influence.

Not to mention @WTF brought up something that made me remember the layers of resistance,

Human Children without developed Magic have 0 resistance < Neige Snow Magic Mind Hax < Human Adults with developed magic resistance < Forbidden Magic Mind Hax < Elves Resistance (Humans with comparable power to the Elves like Conrad and Lumiere can resist mind hax caused by Forbidden Magic) < Forbidden Magic of The Highest Level (Works even on Elves) < Devil Resistance.

3 layered resistance.

---

And for his reality warping, what has he done with it offensively?

Not to waste time, I've already watched Mob and Zagred's in-character use of RW is almost useless offensively but great defensively. The best he can do offensively is summon seas of monsters that eat life upon contact and create portals where more of them can pour out anywhere.

 

[Planck69]

Not to mention @WTF brought up something that made me remember the layers of resistance,

Human Children without developed Magic have 0 resistance < Neige Snow Magic Mind Hax < Human Adults with developed magic resistance < Forbidden Magic Mind Hax < Elves Resistance (Humans with comparable power to the Elves like Conrad and Lumiere can resist mind hax caused by Forbidden Magic) < Forbidden Magic of The Highest Level (Works even on Elves) < Devil Resistance.

3 layered resistance.

Mogami can mind control Mob, who can ignore God Dimple's mind control, who after being empowered can affect Teruki, who can resist the passive mind control of Psycho Helmet, who can affect weaker espers, who have baseline resistance to mind control.

Not to waste time, I've already watched Mob and Zagred's in-character use of RW is almost useless offensively but great defensively. The best he can do offensively is summon seas of monsters that eat life upon contact and create portals where more of them can pour out anywhere.

Mogami has Area-of-Effect life absorption on top of lacking life, on account of not having life (since he's dead) and an army of spirits as powerful as himself.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah these have been discussed already, Devils are immune to life absorption in Black Clover and I know how many layers Mogami has (that’s only relevant when two consciousness possess a body tho).

 

[Planck69]

Eh, voting for Mogami I suppose. His survivability and powers should allow him to gain a win before he's overcome.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Eh. It’s a shame.

I disagree anyway cuz Zagred has an answer for all of Mogami’s wincons, meanwhile Mogami doesn’t have an answer to Zagred’s soul spell and I strongly believe ghosts are life essences of individuals given form so Zagred’s sea of life eating pets should deal with Mogami too.

 

[Planck69]

Eh. It’s a shame.

I disagree anyway cuz Zagred has an answer for all of Mogami’s wincons, meanwhile Mogami doesn’t have an answer to Zagred’s soul spell and I strongly believe ghosts are life essences of individuals given form so Zagred’s sea of life eating pets should deal with Mogami too.

We have nothing saying ghosts are life essences in universe. Heck, they can exist from nothing but collective belief. They're just ghosts and spirits.

And if Zagred has 3 layers of mind resistances then Mogami can surpass that, seeing as Mob himself has 3 layers in that chain. Never mind possession or Mogami's own life steal.

And even aside from that, Life Absorption overcomes High regeneration and Type 7 Immortality how?

 

[Epiccheev]

I disagree with ghosts being made of life force because
1.Lifeforce as shown in mob psycho comes from living things like crops and humans, and getting drained of it causes the body to decay, meaning it's a physical energy that comes from the body, as opposed to psychic energy/ghosts who hail from mind/astral sources.
2.When Mogami starts absorbing ghosts his body and mind decay with him rapidly aging, wich is the opposite of what you'd expect of someone who's been absorbing lifeforce.
3.Certain ghosts feeding on lifeforce is also not a strong argument, given they can feed on pretty much any form of energy in the verse (Psychic power,lifeforce,other ghosts,spiritium, etc.)

 

[Epiccheev]

Still, the Soul suspension spell is a wincon, is there any scans of Zagred using it?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I disagree with ghosts being made of life force because
1.Lifeforce as shown in mob psycho comes from living things like crops and humans, and getting drained of it causes the body to decay, meaning it's a physical energy that comes from the body, as opposed to psychic energy/ghosts who hail from mind/astral sources.
2.When Mogami starts absorbing ghosts his body and mind decay with him rapidly aging, wich is the opposite of what you'd expect of someone who's been absorbing lifeforce.
3.Certain ghosts feeding on lifeforce is also not a strong argument, given they can feed on pretty much any form of energy in the verse (Psychic power,lifeforce,other ghosts,spiritium, etc.)

Alright then.

Still, the Soul suspension spell is a wincon, is there any scans of Zagred using it? (and if not asking much for the sea of monsters as well)

That’s about it. Zagred suspends the souls of the elves till the seal put on him by that girl (my Nero) in the scan is broken. 500 years later the seal on Zagred breaks and he reincarnates one of the elves which makes the elf think he’s some kind of savior for the other elves but in reality all of that was Zagred’s master plan to eventually obtain his body and steal the poor elf’s grimoire.

Oh and this what the sea of life eating monsters. That’s what they look like when Zagred spams them.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

....Who here argued spirits are sacred? Mogami's win conditions are hax.

 

[Epiccheev]

I guess it's up to wether Mogami's mind hax can be applied here and if he will use it before Zagred suspends him.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mogami can mind control Mob, who can ignore God Dimple's mind control, who after being empowered can affect Teruki, who can resist the passive mind control of Psycho Helmet, who can affect weaker espers, who have baseline resistance to mind control.

I count 3 layers here tho.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I guess it's up to wether Mogami's mind hax can be applied here and if he will use it before Zagred suspends him.

Well Mogami needs to possess Zagred to use his Mind hax (that Zagred should resist anyway given both have matching layers) when they fight within Zagred’s body. It’s similar to how Ekubo needed some sort of condition for his mind hax to be initiated. Meanwhile Zagred can easily prevent possession via RW. So Zagred is definitely going to suspend him first.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

....Who here argued spirits are sacred? Mogami's win conditions are hax.

And how is this hax getting past Demon Heart Invulnerability?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

yeah I don’t see the spirits getting passed the heart’s invulnerability. They aren’t sacred but being sacred doesn’t mean they’re holy or unholy anyway.

 

[Planck69]

Unless I missed something, we don't treat invulnerability as a No U to all hax, at all.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

 

[Phoenks]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

Yeah.

I’ve given reasonings for how Zagred defends against those.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah.

I’ve given reasonings for how Zagred defends against those.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Mogami's mind control, possession, and memory reading/manipulation should give him an easy victory imo.

There's also the TK which has such vastly higher LS that even that could arguably just quickly win the fight considering Devil regeneration isn't instant. Class T is multiple.magnitudes higher than Class K.

Also, another point I could bring up. Doesn't Zagred need to speak to make his words true? And the way he does this is similar to a normal human?

If Mogami reads his mind, he could easily prevent him from saying anything with a single thought. If he binds him in TK the LS will be so great that he wouldn't even be able to move his mouth to voice something. This could be an extremely strong case to say he just shuts down Zagred's main defense.

 

[Planck69]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

The ridiculous NLF aside, mind hax doesn't need to kill to incapacitate.

"Without law, unholy and holy, no hax works" lmfao.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

In fact, it should protect them from mental manipulation as well since there is mental magic in BC that is not considered arcane magic or sacred magic, like for example Marx and Neige

 

[Phoenks]

In fact, it should protect them from mental manipulation as well since there is mental magic in BC that is not considered arcane magic or sacred magic, like for example Marx and Neige

NLF, and not mentioned on the page. It's explicitly listed as being limited.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

NLF, and not mentioned on the page. It's explicitly listed as being limited.

It is not mentioned because Invulnerability already covers it so many of the hax that the demon heart demonstrates resistance to are not on its page, and limited because it's just the heart, and there's no reason to assume this as the NFL since the Invulnerability of demon hearts is important to the plot and spells that are mind hax have been shown to be "ordinary" magic which does not affect the demon heart

 

[Phoenks]

It is not mentioned because Invulnerability already covers it so many of the hax that the demon heart demonstrates resistance to are not on its page, and limited because it's just the heart, and there's no reason to assume this as the NFL since the Invulnerability of demon hearts is important to the plot and spells that are mind hax have been shown to be "ordinary" magic which does not affect the demon heart

If it's just the heart it literally doesn't matter in this fight anyway, because Mogami is going to affect his mind, not his heart. ???

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

If it's just the heart it literally doesn't matter in this fight anyway, because Mogami is going to affect his mind, not his heart. ???

His consciousness(mind) is in the heart, that's why when the rest of his body gets vaporized the heart grew a mouth and he was shown talking/using his magic with it to restore his body

Though I don't see how this would be actually relevant either because his mind being in the invulnerable heart doesn't make it resistant to mind manip in the same way a persons who has a fully invulnerable body's own mind being in that body won't grant them resistance to mind manip

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ve been saying the same things over and over again. God. @Phoenks

Mogami is not doing any of that Mind hax without possessing Zagred’s body or without Zagred possessing a body inhabited by him. Zagred can easily prevent that by not letting Mogami reach him. Mogami’s mind hax is 3 layers. Zagred’s resistance is 3 layers.

Zagred can talk as just a heart even if the rest of his body is gone. Yes he talks with a mouth and can form mouths anywhere even on his indestructible heart. There are cases in Mob Psycho where people can talk while under the strong influence of TK not to mention Zagred can easily change what’s on his mind quickly as soon as he realizes that Mogami is reading his mind. Zagred has faced someone with literal precognition anyway and all he did was spam attacks by forming mouths all over his body. Mogami is going to have to target all the mouths directly around his body. Besides when has Mogami used mind reading outside the mind scape?

Anyway that’s all I’ll say for now until I’m sober cuz I shouldn’t be replying rn

 

[Phoenks]

There are cases in Mob Psycho where people can talk while under the strong influence of TK

They have higher LS than the people in Black Clover so that's not really a point. Class T vs Class K is not going to let Zagred talk while under the influence.

Zagred can easily change what’s on his mind quickly as soon as he realizes that Mogami is reading his mind.

He can, but that also means he won't be able to think about what he is doing at the moment.

Zagred has faced someone with literal precognition anyway and all he did was spam attacks by forming mouths all over his body. Mogami is going to have to target all the mouths directly around his body.

Telekinesis already affects the entire body so it would automatically affect all the mouths he creates on his body and prevent him from speaking.

Mogami is not doing any of that Mind hax without possessing Zagred’s body or without Zagred possessing a body inhabited by him. Zagred can easily prevent that by not letting Mogami reach him. Mogami’s mind hax is 3 layers. Zagred’s resistance is 3 layers.

Zagred's resistance is not currently backed up like Mogami's is. It's not on the pages. As far as I know you could just be making that up, considering you didn't bring it up until recently.

 

[Planck69]

Mob resists God Dimple, who can affect Teruki, who resists Psycho Helmet's passive aura, who can affect weaker espers, who have baseline mind resistance. He's the one with three resistance layers.

Mogami overcomes that just fine. And since when do we assume it's possession-based? He's a spirit, nothing stops him from using the basic aspect like Dimple did.

The invulnerability extending to hax is classic NLF unless there are very explicit feats and statements and the logic doesn't even hold. There are characters with full body invulnerability, brain and all. We don't assume them to be immune to everything in their verse.

Telekinesis can cover the whole body and has no travel time so Zagred can be immobilised just fine. It can lock up invidious joints, closing mouths isn't an issue.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ll respond when I’m free today cuz some of these replies are insane. I’m getting rid of this one topic below cuz I’m tired of reading it:

The invulnerability extending to hax is classics
NLF, unless there's very explicit feats and statements and the logic doesn't even hold anyway. There are characters with full body invulnerability, brain and all. We don't assume them to be immune to everything in their verse.

Those characters have nothing to do with black clover. The heart was stated to tank everything and there were specific counters to it. It has even tanked existence erasure.

Also this topic is irrelevant to this thread. Mogami doesn’t have any special or overpowered hax to kill Zagred conventionally. The topic here is Mind hax which I will discuss later today.

 

[Phoenks]

Those characters have nothing to do with black clover. The heart was stated to tank everything and there were specific counters to it. It has even tanked existence erasure.

Existence Erasure is not mind manipulation at all. Those are completely different abilities with completely different applications. Using the statement of "Tanking everything" and extrapolating that to mean they can resist abilities like mind manipulation without explicit proof is textbook NLF.

Also this topic is irrelevant to this thread. Mogami doesn’t have any special or overpowered hax to kill Zagred conventionally.

Again, even if that was the case, "killing" isn't even required. Possession and Mind Manipulation are his main attacks and both of them can be used to incapacitate, which is what he normally does anyway.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Existence Erasure is not mind manipulation at all. Those are completely different abilities with completely different applications. Using the statement of "Tanking everything" and extrapolating that to mean they can resist abilities like mind manipulation without explicit proof is textbook NLF.

Again you are misunderstanding what I am saying..

I have agreed with you like 10 times. Invulnerability has nothing to do with Mind hax.

 

[Phoenks]

Okay, well are you ready to defend your stance?

1. How does he get past Class T TK immediately binding him and preventing him from using word magic?
2. How does he get past Mind Hax that bypasses 3-layered resistance, including possession, memory alteration, and mind reading? As far as I'm aware, his mind hax is an instantaneous win-con that's thought-based.
3. How does he actually kill Mogami when he can summon like hundreds of spirits to attack that each have high regeneration and higher AP than him?

 

[Phoenks]

Bump