Zagred vs Keiji Mogami

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay, well are you ready to defend your stance?

I have been doing so for a long while now while repeating myself over and over again.

This will be the last time. And if the conversation somehow circle backs to the same talking points then I’ll just let someone else handle this.

Although I will br bring new points to add to what I’ve already been saying. Hopefully that will help this progress.

1. How does he get past Class T TK immediately binding him and preventing him from using word magic?

Prove Mogami can telekenetically block people from speaking when holding their entire body (This never happens in Mob Psycho with anyone as far as I know). he would have to target the mouth specifically. Zagred can grow mouths all over his body to spam his magic so prove Mogami can specifically target all the mouths at once.

Also the TK in Mob Psycho works by energy binding on a target. Zagred sees that his mouth is being targeted and deletes said energy with multiple other mouths.

Also I don’t believe Mogami can read minds to the degree and frequency that’s puts him in an advantage all the time. For days I’ve been struggling to remember where this feat came from. Cuz they’re many… many cases where he could’ve just used mind reading. Unless it’s just something he just doesn’t do in character.

How does he get past Mind Hax that bypasses 3-layered resistance, including possession, memory alteration, and mind reading? As far as I'm aware, his mind hax is an instantaneous win-con that's thought-based.

I rewatched the episode to confirm everything I’ve said thus far and I realized Mogami doesn’t have mind hax outside memory manipulation.

Like I said multiple times before he can’t use it outside of the mental world.

That’s why he had to trap Mob to use it.

How does he actually kill Mogami when he can summon like hundreds of spirits to attack that each have high regeneration and higher AP than him?

Doesn’t need to kill him.

And his monsters can take care of the other spirits.

 

[Phoenks]

Prove Mogami can telekenetically block people from speaking when holding their entire body (This never happens in Mob Psycho with anyone as far as I know). he would have to target the mouth specifically. Zagred can grow mouths all over his body to spam his magic so prove Mogami can specifically target all the mouths at once.

Everyone in Mob Psycho can do psychic energy binds that cover one's entire body (Example of Mob twisting all of Toichiro's body at once, even down to his eyes in the anime). The only reason people in Mob Psycho can talk is because, once again, they have higher lifting strength/psychic resistance that allows them to resist psychic powers to an extent. Like Tochiro in that scene having Class T as well, allowing him to still talk, though even he was struggling to do that.

Zagred has neither psychic resistance, nor high enough LS to resist a bind at all, so please stop saying this. It's just what would logically happen if he put the guy in a Class T psychic bind, and it would cover all of the mouths.

Again, because this is really obvious stuff here, he can have him under a full-body pressure that is 47,598,623x stronger than what he can resist.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ll take your silence on the rest of what I said as concession. So speak now or forever hold your objections in the future because I will not come back to this again.

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Everyone in Mob Psycho can do psychic energy binds that cover one's entire body (Example of Mob twisting all of Toichiro's body at once, even down to his eyes in the anime). The only reason people in Mob Psycho can talk is because, once again, they have higher lifting strength/psychic resistance that allows them to resist psychic powers to an extent. Like Tochiro in that scene having Class T as well, allowing him to still talk, though even he was struggling to do that.

Zagred has neither psychic resistance, nor high enough LS to resist a bind at all, so please stop saying this. It's just what would logically happen if he put the guy in a Class T psychic bind, and it would cover all of the mouths.

Again, because this is really obvious stuff here, he can have him under a full-body pressure that is 47,598,623x stronger than what he can resist.

I also disagree that having “a higher LS” helps you to talk while being “bound” but I won’t say anything about it. All I’ll say is, Crushing requires but AP and LS.

Zagred’s heart invulnerability counters the AP aspect and he can speak through his heart to delete the esper energy shrouding him.

If you are still adamant on the LS working on the Devil Heart’s mouth to prevent Zagred from deleting the energy. All I can say is Mogami isn’t doing that forever and Zagred is fine with playing the long game. (I mean he literally waited centuries for his plan)

 

[Phoenks]

I’ll take your silence on the rest of what I said as concession. So speak now or forever hold your objections in the future because I will not come back to this again.

This is the biggest point, which is why I addressed it. If you can't counter the TK point, then it means that regardless of if Mogami needs to possess him, that he would still win this fight. Because if he can bind him, he can possess him anyway, even if you think he needs to do that to do mind manipulation stuff.

Crushing requires but AP and LS.

There is no crushing required. Closing mouths is not going to be damaging Zagred, just restricting him from moving his mouths, so invulnerability (immunity from damage) is not a factor. There is no damage or compression being done to Zagred's body. So the AP requirement isn't even really a factor for my argument.

And even still, Mogami possesses an AP advantage on top of the 47 million times lifting strength advantage.

If that's your best argument, it's not going to work here, man.

Zagred’s heart invulnerability counters the AP aspect and he can speak through his heart to delete the esper energy shrouding him.

Invulnerability doesn't counter telekinesis unless you have proof if does. And again, he isn't hurting Zagred, he's just closing mouths. Does his heart have a physical mouth or is a non-physical thing?

If you are still adamant on the LS working on the Devil Heart’s mouth to prevent Zagred from deleting the energy. All I can say is Mogami isn’t doing that forever.

He doesn't have to do it forever.

Even if you think Mogami can't mind control from the outside, if he restricts Zagred from moving he can easily possess him in an instant...

To be honest, Zagred would be lucky to not get possessed even without this argument.

Zagred seems to have let people get close to him/hit him in every single fight he's been in, so I think assuming he somehow does a no-hit no-contact run when fighting Mogami is far-fetched.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This is the biggest point, which is why I addressed it. If you can't counter the TK point, then it means that regardless of if Mogami needs to possess him, that he would still win this fight. Because if he can bind him, he can possess him anyway, even if you think he needs to do that to do mind manipulation stuff.

Zagred counters and resists possession.

There is no crushing required

Okay

Invulnerability doesn't counter telekinesis

Never said it did.

Zagred seems to have let people get close to him/hit him in every single fight he's been in

This is the most untrue statement made in this debate thus far and I know you haven’t watched Black Clover so why make this claim with confidence. Whatever Zagred can counter never reaches him. Infact there has never been a case where he let something he could easily counter hit him.

Zagred resists possession anyway with negative mana the same way Licht did to keep a far weaker Zagred at bay (Keep in mind this weaker Zagred could take over an Elf’s body). This way Low Ranking Devils don’t possess Zagred, the same way higher ranks do.

Supreme Devils > Zagred (high ranking devil) > Mid Ranking Devils > Low Ranking Devils.

 

[Phoenks]

Zagred counters and resists possession.

How? Mogami bypasses layered possession resistances. 3 layer bypass iirc.

Okay

So then you are admitting Mogami can bind him, right?

This is the most untrue statement made in this debate thus far and I know you haven’t watched Black Clover so why make such a confident claim. Whatever Zagred can counter never reaches him.

I don't know how it's untrue. I've watched multiple clips of him from the anime and in every fight people manage to get close to him/attack him without him just deleting the attacks out of existence with word magic. Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him. So why are we assuming he'd immediately do that?

I feel like he's being extremely hyped up here ngl. Like most anime characters with stupidly op abilities, he seems to not really use its full potential and is drawn back by that.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him. So why are we assuming he'd immediately do that?

Zagred was busy fighting other characters and Yami had to surpass his limits, right there, right in the moment to use an attack that it seems to not have any travel speed

So there is no way he can dodge an attack that is unavoidable/extremely difficult to avoid and from a character that he is not even taking into account

And from other clips, normally he tries to speak and Yuno/Asta speedblitz him, Yuno and Asta were using the antimagic properties of atraction to magic to make themselves faster, and with Licht, ultimate magic shenanigans+ plot, no defense of why for example Zagred could not vanish the attack other than to show that his heart is invulnerable and this part has caused a lot of problems in the verse so okey, point for you about this scene

 

[Arnoldstone18]

How? Mogami bypasses layered possession resistances. 3 layer bypass iirc.

and these layers are?

I don't know how it's untrue. I've watched multiple clips of him from the anime and in every fight people manage to get close to him/attack him without him just deleting the attacks out of existence with word magic. Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him.

So you just watched clips of him from the anime and not the anime itself?

Even if you watched the anime through Instagram reels, you would not be claiming Zagred saw Yami’s attack from a kilometer away. He was obviously distracted by other characters trying to literally kill him and Yami obviously boosted the speed of the attack immensely.

And no Zagred can’t counter dark magic even if he did see it coming with Reality Warping. It’s magic from the underworld.

Ask questions on what you watch off heavily edited clips on YouTube. Stop making strong claims based on it. I have watched Mob Psycho so I can definitely make strong claims about it.

I feel like he's being extremely hyped up here ngl. Like most anime characters with stupidly op abilities, he seems to not really use its full potential and is drawn back by that.

Or the fact that Zagred is jumped by multiple people who have skill sets designed to take care of his OP powers and abilities. The MC is literally anti magic ffs.