Zagred vs Keiji Mogami

[Robo432343]

Zagred

Both you elves and humans... Your dreams and desires all make for the ultimate playthings...!! I have deceived, killed and plundered...and oooh was it delightful~ Zagred 「ザグレド Zagredo」 masterminded the corruption of Licht's grimoire into a five-leaf grimoire, the human royals' plot to kill the...

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vs

Keiji Mogami

I have read your memories and your thoughts. It seems you are trying to restrain your power to live a life without it. In order to live a more fulfilling life. You believe that interpersonal relationship is more important than psychic power. This is the thought of a blessed one. You...

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Both 6-B
SBA otherwise
Speed =

Mogami: 3
Zagred:2
Incon:1

 

[Dragoonseraphim]

You linked Zagred twice.

 

[Robo432343]

You linked Zagred twice.

lol

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I don´t think Keiji can do anything to Zagred as Zagred resist mind and madness manipulation and possesion does not seem to work as he also can do the same when he was a mere soul, so Keiji possesing him won´t work as he would need to affect his soul and Zagred then just tries the same? I don´t know, stalemate in this case

And from Zagred case, he can´t stop high regen, his trident won´t affect the whole body and he resist power nullification from elves(so Keiji can´t just powernull), also it seems he won´t be able to manipulate his soul as he did with the elf's souls and his own regeneration can´t be nullified by Keiji

So both resist eachother and both can fight all the time they want, Zagred absorbs mana passively, Keiji has infinite stamina physically and his powers needs to recharge, but if both can´t die nor being KO, then is inconclusive

The only thing that can work is Zagred's Underworld monsters, but Keiji also has his summons, the monsters has to kill Keiji, but the spirits can stop this monsters or possibly destroy them

This is the only chance of Zagred winning, but is extremely flimsy in my opinion and rely on something I don´t think how could it work

 

[Robo432343]

I don´t think Keiji can do anything to Zagred as Zagred resist mind and madness manipulation and possesion does not seem to work as he also can do the same when he was a mere soul, so Keiji possesing him won´t work as he would need to affect his soul and Zagred then just tries the same? I don´t know, stalemate in this case

And from Zagred case, he can´t stop high regen, his trident won´t affect the whole body and he resist power nullification from elves(so Keiji can´t just powernull), also it seems he won´t be able to manipulate his soul as he did with the elf's souls and his own regeneration can´t be nullified by Keiji

So both resist eachother and both can fight all the time they want, Zagred absorbs mana passively, Keiji has infinite stamina physically and his powers needs to recharge, but if both can´t die nor being KO, then is inconclusive

The only thing that can work is Zagred's Underworld monsters, but Keiji also has his summons, the monsters has to kill Keiji, but the spirits can stop this monsters or possibly destroy them

This is the only chance of Zagred winning, but is extremely flimsy in my opinion and rely on something I don´t think how could it work

yes yes very interesting

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

I don´t think Keiji can do anything to Zagred as Zagred resist mind and madness manipulation and possesion does not seem to work as he also can do the same when he was a mere soul, so Keiji possesing him won´t work as he would need to affect his soul and Zagred then just tries the same? I don´t know, stalemate in this case

And from Zagred case, he can´t stop high regen, his trident won´t affect the whole body and he resist power nullification from elves(so Keiji can´t just powernull), also it seems he won´t be able to manipulate his soul as he did with the elf's souls and his own regeneration can´t be nullified by Keiji

So both resist eachother and both can fight all the time they want, Zagred absorbs mana passively, Keiji has infinite stamina physically and his powers needs to recharge, but if both can´t die nor being KO, then is inconclusive

The only thing that can work is Zagred's Underworld monsters, but Keiji also has his summons, the monsters has to kill Keiji, but the spirits can stop this monsters or possibly destroy them

This is the only chance of Zagred winning, but is extremely flimsy in my opinion and rely on something I don´t think how could it work

keiji does have a wincon
he can outlast zagred in terms of stamina

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Zagred replenish stamina passively and his heart is still invulnerable, even if Zagred does not have mana, he would just wait like 5 hours being a rock, replenish his whole mana and continue fighting

And that is not the same as being KO

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Zagred vs Ekubo when?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Zagred vs Ekubo when?

Ekubo vs Mereoleona

2 gods, no one can stop them

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

Y42FEWDRRR3DQ

 

[Phoenks]

Mogami's mind manipulation, possession, and memory manipulation are layered as they can bypass Mob's resistances.

Basic Esper Mind Resistance < Dimple's Mind Hax < Shigeo's Mind Resistance < Mogami's Mind Hax

 

[Phoenks]

By the way what is Zagred's answer to the Lifeforce absorption which could instantaneously incapacitate a group of people the moment he was summoned?

So far, going to have to say Mogami either wins or stomps. The layered mind manipulation alone is probably enough for that, or the possession. Which are common starting moves.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

By the way what is Zagred's answer to the Lifeforce absorption which could instantaneously incapacitate a group of people the moment he was summoned?

Demons have resistance to absorbing vital energy

How does mogami's mind manipulation work?

 

[Phoenks]

Demons have resistance to absorbing vital energy

How does mogami's mind manipulation work?

He can trap you in a mental plane while simultaneously possessing your body. In that plane he can attack your spirit with evil beings and essentially destroy your consciousness. He can also just rewrite your memories and mind read everything about you at a glance. He did this to Mob when he met him.

Pretty much just general mind attacks as well.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

By the way what is Zagred's answer to the Lifeforce absorption which could instantaneously incapacitate a group of people the moment he was summoned?

Life absorption doesn’t work on devils.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He can trap you in a mental plane while simultaneously possessing your body. In that plane he can attack your spirit with evil beings and essentially destroy your consciousness. He can also just rewrite your memories and mind read everything about you at a glance. He did this to Mob when he met him.

Pretty much just general mind attacks as well.

Doesn’t his spirit need to go in the body to possess it? Zagred is obviously not going to let that happen. He can easily say “get back”.

 

[Phoenks]

Doesn’t his spirit need to go in the body to possess it? Zagred is obviously not going to let that happen. He can easily say “get back”.

I should've mentioned Mogami's invisibility is layered as well. A lot of other Espers in the series can't even see him despite having ESP.

He will immediately know about everything Zagred can do the moment he looks at him via mind reading his memories. That alone wins him this fight IMO, pretty much off the bat.

And no mind hax doesn't even require him to spiritually possess someone. But even if it did his vastly superior LS with telekinesis and invisibility would make that effortless.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I should've mentioned Mogami's invisibility is layered as well. A lot of other Espers in the series can't even see him despite having ESP.

He will immediately know about everything Zagred can do the moment he looks at him via mind reading his memories. That alone wins him this fight IMO, pretty much off the bat.

And no mind hax doesn't even require him to spiritually possess someone. But even if it did his vastly superior LS with telekinesis and invisibility would make that effortless.

It seems that almost none of Mogami's abilities are based on profane or sacred manipulation, I don't know if these abilities will go through the invulnerable physiology of the demonic heart.

 

[Phoenks]

It seems that almost none of Mogami's abilities are based on profane or sacred manipulation, I don't know if these abilities will go through the invulnerable physiology of the demonic heart.

Uh, what? Why not? Spirits in Mob are already sacred beings.

Also, their invulnerability has nothing to do with mind manipulation. It only prevents them from being killed via conventional means.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Uh, what? Why not? Spirits in Mob are already sacred beings.

Also, their invulnerability has nothing to do with mind manipulation. It only prevents them from being killed via conventional means.

Demons must resist magic Marx, I didn't know that spirits in Mob were sacred

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

Magic power level = can hax layers be used here?

 

[Epiccheev]

Basic Esper Mind Resistance < Dimple's Mind Hax < Shigeo's Mind Resistance < Mogami's Mind Hax

Current scaling is:
Base Dimple mindhax (controlled a room full of people)<Baseline Esper resistance<God Dimple Mind Hax (Took over all of Spice City [should include espers] except Mob)<Base Mob Resistance<Mogami Mindhax.

I should've mentioned Mogami's invisibility is layered as well. A lot of other Espers in the series can't even see him despite having ESP.

It is? Iirc, other espers can see him fine, but he resists their ability to sense evil spirits/psychic energy as a room filled with them was unable to sense his presence even when in direct contact with the girl he was possessing.

Also, i'm not sure about ghosts being sacred since absorbing their energy will corrupt the body and mind of a human (like Keiji). But for what it's worth, exorcists who use religious belief based power, (Like Banshomaru who uses prayer beads/Exorcists who use seals/religious books) are also considered espers and run on psychic energy, as shown in the series. ( Though it could easily be said that psychic power just runs on emotions/consciousness and beliefs )

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I should've mentioned Mogami's invisibility is layered as well. A lot of other Espers in the series can't even see him despite having ESP.

Are you sure that’s invisibility or stealth mastery? It’s the latter Cuz ekubo can see him just fine. He can just hide his presence.

He will immediately know about everything Zagred can do the moment he looks at him via mind reading his memories. That alone wins him this fight IMO, pretty much off the bat.

How does him knowing what Zagred will do keep Zagred from doing what he has to do to survive. If anything Mogami knows he can’t do anything.

And no mind hax doesn't even require him to spiritually possess someone. But even if it did his vastly superior LS with telekinesis and invisibility would make that effortless.

Zagred just nullifies the telekinesis with something like “cease” or “stop”.

Also, Mogami’s mind hax hasn’t been shown to work outside a vessel’s mind scape where he has full control over. He used it against Mob’s consciousness form because he was within his space of influence.

 

[Phoenks]

Are you sure that’s invisibility or stealth mastery? It’s the latter Cuz ekubo can see him just fine. He can just hide his presence.


How does him knowing what Zagred will do keep Zagred from doing what he has to do to survive. If anything Mogami knows he can’t do anything.


Zagred just nullifies the telekinesis with something like “cease” or “stop”.

Also, Mogami’s mind hax hasn’t been shown to work outside a vessel’s mind scape where he has full control over. He used it against Mob’s consciousness form because he was within his space of influence.

Zagred can't nullify the TK as Mogami resist his psychic power being nullified.

On top of that, I don't even see that ability listed? It says he has power null with his trident, but not with words.

Mogami knowing his tool kit means that he will be prepared for everything Zagred has to offer and immediately go for the kill.

Layered invisibility is probably the wrong term, but Extrasensory Perception doesn't work on him. So unless Zagred can explicitly see spirits he can't sense him via ESP.

Voting Mogami low difficulty.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Zagred can't nullify the TK as Mogami resist his psychic power being nullified.

Zagred is nullifying via reality warping lol.

On top of that, I don't even see that ability listed? It says he has power null with his trident, but not with words.

It’s listed as Reality Warping because it’s not explicitly Power nullification. Whatever he says becomes reality. He used this to delete an attack from Patry by saying “vanish” to the attack.

Mogami knowing his tool kit means that he will be prepared for everything Zagred has to offer and immediately go for the kill.

this implies Zagred wouldn’t be as urgent to defend himself. It doesn’t matter.

Layered invisibility is probably the wrong term, but Extrasensory Perception doesn't work on him. So unless Zagred can explicitly see spirits he can't sense him via ESP.

Zagred can definitely see spirits like basically every mage in BC (not to mention he can fight as a spirit that looks an evil black version of S2 dimple)

 

[Phoenks]

Zagred is nullifying via reality warping lol.

So? His application of reality warping is power nullification, which Mogami resists.

It’s listed as Reality Warping because it’s not explicitly Power nullification.

Okay so this is an even weaker argument since he's never explicitly power nulled someone in the way you are inferring he could.

He used this to delete an attack from Patry by saying “vanish” to the attack

Sure, but like, has he ever fully nullified someone like this?

And furthermore, telekinesis is thought based so even if he nulls one "attack" it just takes a thought. Also, Mogami's physiology as a spirit makes it incredibly easy to move around and disperse himself to get into Zagred's head.

this implies Zagred wouldn’t be as urgent to defend himself. It doesn’t matter.

It 100% makes a difference lol. Fighting while knowing the moveset of your opponent is a big advantage. It also grants him a form of precognition since he can read his mind.

He'll always be that one step ahead. And the moment he gets to do anything to Zagred the fight is over.




To vote Zagred in this fight you have to first place him out of character, give him a power that he doesn't even have explicitly listed, assume it works on a guy that resists that power because "reality warping," and then also assume Mogami doesn't get to use any of his abilities despite him having knowledge on everything Zagred could do.


Mogami seems to hold most of the advantages here.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mogami simply does not resist reality warping bro. For example; resisting magic nullification via magic doesn’t mean you can resist anti magic the same way, so Mogami can resist other psychic power nullification but can not resist reality warping. Asserting he does is an obvious fallacy.

The Telekenisis also requires that psychic energy shrouds the target. Zagred easily deletes that energy from reality. Zagred can always just say “return” to force Mogami back to where he was so regardless of how Mogami’s physiology is, he can’t even move to possess kick Zagred’s soul out of his body.

I repeat, I am aware of what you’re talking about but knowing Zagred’s movesets wont make a difference since Mogami has no way of getting around his reality warping. I am not saying Mogami doesn’t have access to his moves, he just can’t use them to his advantage over Zagred’s magic. He can’t absorb Zagred’s life force due to his physiology, He can’t use psychic energy to attack cuz Zagred will block or neg with his Reality Warping. It’s like knowing what Zagred will say but what’s he gonna do to stop Zagred from saying it or something else.

I’m voting Zagred via Forbidden Magic: Noah Naphesh (suspends souls for centuries) or Life Eating Monsters that he can enhance. Mogami doesn’t resist Life Absorption.

 

[Phoenks]

Mogami simply does not resist reality warping bro. For example; resisting magic nullification via magic doesn’t mean you can resist anti magic the same way, so Mogami can resist other psychic power nullification but can not resist reality warping. Asserting he does is an obvious fallacy.

It's not a fallacy, actually.

You don't need to have a resistance to reality warping to resist an application of reality warping.

This kind of argument only works if the power is affecting a more fundamental aspect of reality, like information type 2, conceptual manipulation 1-2, or something along those lines.

Reality warping on the other hand isn't a more fundamental power by default. Its usually just the way that someone manifest other powers.

This is like saying someone who can resist spatial manipulation would not resist someone who can reality warp to manipulate space.

Or that someone who can resist time manipulation can not resist someone's ability to reality warp time.

Or that someone who can resist ice manipulation can not resist magical ice manipulation.

Not really a fair argument.

The Telekenisis also requires that psychic energy shrouds the target. Zagred easily deletes that energy from reality.

He would not even know that energy exists.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's not a fallacy, actually.

You don't need to have a resistance to reality warping to resist an application of reality warping.

This kind of argument only works if the power is affecting a more fundamental aspect of reality, like information type 2, conceptual manipulation 1-2, or something along those lines.

Reality warping on the other hand isn't a more fundamental power by default. Its usually just the way that someone manifest other powers.

This is like saying someone who can resist spatial manipulation would not resist someone who can reality warp to manipulate space.

Or that someone who can resist time manipulation can not resist someone's ability to reality warp time.

Or that someone who can resist ice manipulation can not resist magical ice manipulation.

Not really a fair argument.

First of all these examples you’re bringing up don’t correlate with what you’re trying to do. Secondly, No. these type of arguments aren’t exclusive to certain abilities you listed. Lastly, No. I am not trying to say someone who can resist spatial manipulation would not resist someone who can reality warp to manipulate space because, like I said earlier, it doesn’t correlate to Mogami resisting power nullification and resisting reality warping that deletes attacks from reality.

You even brought abilities that can actually be generalized to support your fallacious generalization in favor of Mogami.

Obviously magical ice manipulation is still ice manipulation and reality warping time is still time manipulation but Anti magic - magic nullification is NOT Magic - magic energy nullification even though they can do the same things. So an Esper negging another esper with their psychic energy can not be associated with Zagred causing the energy to literally vanish from reality via reality warping. It’s an association fallacy based on the fact that you’re forcing a similarity with the term “power nullification” when that term in itself is far less specific than “manipulating time” or “manipulating ice” for instance. “Time” is one thing, “power” can be many different things. Mogami can resist espers from using their energy to nullify his attacks, that doesn’t mean Mogami can resist his attacks getting erased from existence. Essentially I’m saying Mogami has a specific resistance to power nullification but not all types of power nullification. Here even our standards say this.

Specific resistances do not necessarily translate to broad ones, though resisting a versatile power with many applications (such as Mind Manipulation) may provide a similarly expansive defense. Even then, when the same ability is performed differently, resistance may prove futile. For example, a character may resist mind manipulation that targets the brain directly, but would be in trouble against a power that targets some incorporeal idea of the mind itself.

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He would not even know that energy exists.

Bro he will literally see red energy surround him and he will just tell it to disappear. What do you mean he wouldn’t know? he has his senses. Enhanced senses that help him to deal with attacks from his blind spots. So he will definitely know energy is shrouding him and deal with it immediately.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Zagred FRA

 

[Robo432343]

no bro incon fra

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This definitely isn’t incon but sure if that’s your vote.

 

[Robo432343]

yes it is lil bro

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Zagred FRA

 

[Phoenks]

that doesn’t mean Mogami can resist his attacks getting erased from existence.

That's fine, I assumed you meant he was going to use his powers to nullify Mogami's powerset entirely, which would be the specific form of nullification he resist.

Bro he will literally see red energy surround him and he will just tell it to disappear. What do you mean he wouldn’t know?

Why exactly would he be able to sense psychic energy if that's not something that exists in the Black Clover verse?

 

[Robo432343]

i think its 2-2

 

[Epiccheev]

I’m voting Zagred via Forbidden Magic: Noah Naphesh (suspends souls for centuries)

If he could do that why didn't you say sooner lol.

Life Eating Monsters that he can enhance. Mogami doesn’t resist Life Absorption.

Ghosts don't really have a life force for him to absorb, besides Mogami also can summon thousands of ghosts with layered possession that also works on ghosts. So very unlikely especially with memory reading.