Cardfight speed downgrade

[DaReaperMan]

The slowdown requires an assumption. Last I checked we went for the route with the LEAST assumptions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If you were to find another feat where they traveled across the universe in 10 minutes, with some explicit indication that their speed was constant in that instance only, we wouldn't use that with their current calc'd speed of traveling across the universe in 3 seconds. It would need its own calc.

But if you find some reason for there to be no slowdown in the 3 second feat, it'd be fine to use.

Ohh okay.

Anyway, back to the slowdown. I noticed that you said this earlier about slowdown:

To account for the slowdown, I'd say try to pixel-scale the speed visually seen in that scene, but idk how enthusiastic you'd be about that.

EDIT: Thinking about it, if you account for the slowdown I doubt it'd get even normal human reaction speeds. Since I'm pretty sure that scene took more than 0.2 seconds, which is the requirement for normal human reactions. This is probably only useful if you don't assume slowdown.

Out of curiosity, what would we do under the scenario that the landing scene was less than 0.2 seconds?

 

[Agnaa]

The slowdown requires an assumption. Last I checked we went for the route with the LEAST assumptions.

Saying there's no slowdown requires the assumption of high reactions. It can also be stated as assuming that there is no slowdown (since the series doesn't indicate either way).

When both cases require assumptions, we can either rate the feat at Unknown, or go with the lower one.

We extensively discussed this in its own thread, and the vast staff consensus was that arguments along the lines you just provided are bad.

Out of curiosity, what would we do under the scenario that the landing scene was less than 0.2 seconds?

Since reactions are technically just measured in seconds, we could rate it as being the length of the landing scene. If it's 2 frames in a 25-60fps series, that'd be Superhuman.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since reactions are technically just measured in seconds, we could rate it as being the length of the landing scene. If it's 2 frames in a 25-60fps series, that'd be Superhuman.

Okay, so hypothetically, if we took the landing scene and measured the frames to be of a time shorter than 0.2, then where does that leave the slowdown on whether it happens or not?

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't, it'd just be a different approach to getting reactions from that scene.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It doesn't what? You didn't really specify.

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't have to do with whether slowdown happened or didn't happen. It'd be deriving reaction speeds independent from the rest of the flight.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then what was the point in mentioning accounting for slowdown earlier above?

 

[Agnaa]

1. To account for the slowdown (to measure how fast they were going in that scene, assuming that's the speed they'd slowed to) you could pixel-scale their movements.
2. Oh wait, that's redundant since reaction speed is measured in time. Why measure speed and distance to work your way back to the timeframe when the timeframe's already there?
3. Actually, normal human speed only starts at 0.2 seconds, and I think the scene was longer than that. So if we tried doing that, it'd probably end up in the human range anyway.

Essentially, I was working through ways to get their reactions if we took their on-screen speed as their actual speed at the time, but came to the conclusion that doing that would turn it into a non-feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay and thats why I asked what would happen if the scene was shorter than normal human speed (0.2 seconds).

But more importantly, this sort've returns to one of my earlier points. Slowing down would only happen once you actually witness the place you are stopping at / obstacle you are avoiding.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay and thats why I asked what would happen if the scene was shorter than normal human speed (0.2 seconds).

Like I said, since we're talking video, you'd probably have to show 2 frames for us to meaningfully identify something as taking place over that period of time. If the animation was at 60 fps, that would only be Superhuman reactions. If it was some ungodly framerate like 240 fps (it won't be), it would be Subsonic reactions.

Even these are too extreme to be very realistic, and they wouldn't give particularly notable results.

But more importantly, this sort've returns to one of my earlier points. Slowing down would only happen once you actually witness the place you are stopping at / obstacle you are avoiding.

Sure, and while that'd help with certain feats, I'm not sure it'd help here. Since the character knew roughly where the destination was from the beginning, if they wanted to, say, slowdown when they got within the moon's orbit, they could plan that during the flight with normal human reactions.

And while there is evidence for on-the-fly trajectory changing, that's only for after they're in the planet's atmosphere, which would be after any slowdown.

Hence why this feat's in a bit of a pickle. The flight speeds that get fairly high results despite these standards would involve sudden obstacles/decisions during the peak of the flight (flying around space aimlessly and dodging asteroids, flying around space looking for a certain kind of planet to land on). Known location to known location flight without anything funky happening in the middle would require some unlikely-to-occur supporting evidence to hold up.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But more importantly, this sort've returns to one of my earlier points. Slowing down would only happen once you actually witness the place you are stopping at / obstacle you are avoiding.

Sure, and while that'd help with certain feats, I'm not sure it'd help here. Since the character knew roughly where the destination was from the beginning, if they wanted to, say, slowdown when they got within the moon's orbit, they could plan that during the flight with normal human reactions.

The only thing in the destination the character would at best roughly know beforehand is the general vicinity of the planet. Not the location on the planet however.

 

[Agnaa]

The only thing in the destination the character would at best roughly know beforehand is the general vicinity of the planet. Not the location on the planet however.

And I'm saying there could be a significant speed drop once in the vicinity of the planet to make finding the location on it a bit easier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That, however, would require more assumptions than initially set. You normally wouldn't begin to drop your speed until you have witnessed the place you definitely want to stop at. Particularly if there's any hurrying in the mixture.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think so.

So if we both disagree on what the rules are, and the written rules are vague, should a thread be made to hash it out?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well I would but I think you and I know how that story would end here.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Are these threads usually this long? We need to come to a mutual agreement here soon.

 

[Agnaa]

Well I would but I think you and I know how that story would end here.

I'm writing up a thread for it now.

 

[azontr]

Looks like Agnaa is moving at Godspeed lol.

 

[Agnaa]

And it's up.

 

[AKM sama]

I didnt say "there are no clouds".

You didn't, I did. To show how that is an animation inconsistency.

Does not take rocket science to discern that this is a trajectory change.

Even if that is, doesn't mean it was happening at MFTL+ speeds.

The slowdown requires an assumption. Last I checked we went for the route with the LEAST assumptions.

That's the least assumption according to our standards. You'd require proof that they were maneuvering at MFTL+ speeds. Kindly read the note on speed page and get a clear understanding of the standards and how they work, because this point is just going back to square 1.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You didn't, I did. To show how that is an animation inconsistency.

Then I don't see the point in why you would try arguing this in the first place when that would only be more beneficial to my argument than anything else.

Even if that is, doesn't mean it was happening at MFTL+ speeds.

It does, because you reasonably aren't going to be slowing yourself down until the place you want to stop or land at is in view to discern that choice.

That's the least assumption according to our standards.

This assumption is being made that you would choose to slow down before your landing point is even in view, so no it's actually not. That adds more of an assumption to what would already be thought of.

 

[AKM sama]

Then I don't see the point in why you would try arguing this in the first place when that would only be more beneficial to my argument than anything else.

It doesn't.

It does, because you reasonably aren't going to be slowing yourself down until the place you want to stop or land at is in view to discern that choice.

The place being the planet.

This assumption is being made that you would choose to slow down before your landing point is even in view, so no it's actually not. That adds more of an assumption to what would already be thought of.

Not really.

I don't think I have anything meaningful left to say at this point. This travel speed feat won't scale to other forms of speed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It doesn't.

It does, because if you argue there's clouds on the original path before trajectory comes, then they wouldn't see the ocean until after passing the clouds to discern that.

The place being the planet.

And you're wrong. It's not the planet. It's a location on the planet.

Not really.

Nice counter argument. But im sure it's based on your false view towards what this feat is, so I'll kindly say see above.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't want to continue this back and forth at this point. If there is nothing new, we'll have to go forward with these changes:

Speed: Peak Human reactions Massively FTL+ Travel speed as a spirit (Should be at least comparable to Takuto, who's soul traveled past numerous stars in seconds to reach Planet Cray and all cardfighters transport their souls to Planet Cray when participating in cardfights) | At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, explicitly requiring them in order to battle in cardfights; Aichi's Units have shown to be fast enough to attack his soul; Superior to the speed of Ren's Units)

Do you have any input on this that is not related to travel speed issue?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah that isn't happening. You can't just decide when this ends when your take is based on false information from the start and then choose to not address the new information.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And when I say "new information", before you try pulling "it was addressed already, so nothing changes"

This entire discussion has been about the feat landing on a specific place on the planet. Not just coming to the planet itself like any ordinary traveling feat. If this was the latter, we wouldn't be here arguing over the reactions being as high as they're argued to be.

 

[AKM sama]

You can't just decide when this ends when your take is based on false information from the start and then choose to not address the new information.

Someone has to decide otherwise it will just go on and on. And no, I have read everything new that has been brought up. The landing thing you brought up does NOT change things. Nothing suggests that they entered the atmosphere at MFTL+ speeds.

If you do not have anything to add regarding the changes apart from this, then we'll just have to go forward with that. My apologies.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Someone has to decide otherwise it will just go on and on. And no, I have read everything new that has been brought up. The landing thing you brought up does NOT change things. Nothing suggests that they entered the atmosphere at MFTL+ speeds.

How does it not? AKM, slowing down is only going to happen when the location you want to stop at is in view so you can discern when to slow down. We have no reason to say slowing down will happen before that information becomes available to start discerning.

You're take, again, is that this feat is simply seeing the planet and then slowing. But that isn't what this feat is. We wouldn't be here arguing this in the first place if seeing the planet was all that this was.

 

[AKM sama]

You're take, again, is that this feat is simply seeing the planet and then slowing. But that isn't what this feat is. We wouldn't be here arguing this in the first place if seeing the planet was all that this was.

I really don't have any counter to arguments like these. They seem to be coming from sheer desperation alone with no logic whatsoever.

What is the destination, Kukui? Is the destination not on the planet? Specifications don't matter, someone coming in from a different galaxy wouldn't say I am going to visit Tokyo. They'd say I am going to visit Tokyo on Earth, because Earth is an inherent destination when it comes to interstellar travel. Why wouldn't a reasonable person going at MFTL+ speeds throughout space slow down upon reaching a planet they want to land on. Do you directly slow down your car at the exact parking spot if you go to a shop? Or do you slow down when you reach near the shop and then make your way to the parking spot?

Come on.

I am not going to respond to these comments anymore. Frankly, I feel like I am wasting time on someone who is being willfully ignorant and would never change his mind no matter what. So there's that. Unless something comes up worth commenting again, I am not going to.

I will wait for some time, and then move ahead with the changes. My apologies.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What is the destination, Kukui? Is the destination not on the planet? Specifications don't matter, someone coming in from a different galaxy wouldn't say I am going to visit Tokyo. They'd say I am going to visit Tokyo on Earth, because Earth is an inherent destination when it comes to interstellar travel. Why wouldn't a reasonable person going at MFTL+ speeds throughout space slow down upon reaching a planet they want to land on.

Because the location on said planet is not in view yet to think about slowing? Why are you going to begin slowing if the landing point, Tokyo in this example, is not yet available to see?

Do you directly slow down your car at the exact parking spot if you go to a shop? Or do you slow down when you reach near the shop and then make your way to the parking spot?

Hilariously big false equivalence that has nothing to do with what the point or discussion here is.

Come on.

I am not going to respond to these comments anymore. Frankly, I feel like I am wasting time on someone who is being willfully ignorant and would never change his mind no matter what. So there's that. Unless something comes up worth commenting again, I am not going to.

Concession accepted then. It's not my problem that you don't want to respond anymore because you don't have an actual legitimate argument to have here and have nothing else to fall back on besides admin powers.

Imagine calling someone with an un-addressed point "willfully ignorant".

I will wait for some time, and then move ahead with the changes. My apologies.

Not your call. I still have more agreement on my side, so until you address my points that at least Agnaa bothered to discuss here, you don't have the authority to do this by yourself.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I already discussed this with ProfessorKukui4Life and I still agree with MFTL+ scaling. I did not simply "blindly agree".

It's one thing if this was an off screen feat like another verse I'm currently downgrading, we'd be unable to tell the specifics. However, here we see the character fly straight down to the planet as the same streak of light he was when he took off and flew through space. We even see he still applying force from his speed since the clouds part when he passes and then smashing into the ground to gain all the characters attention. He showed no indication that he slowed down tremendously and I think evidence should be provided that he did slow his decent.

Also the scaling suggested makes no sense for the 2rd key... (Check the bolded part)

"At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+ travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, explicitly requiring them in order to battle in cardfights; Aichi's Units have shown to be fast enough to attack his soul; Superior to the speed of Ren's Units)"

If you aren't scaling flight speed of the souls to their reaction speed, why are them requiring Units for fighting, and Aichi's Units being fast enough to attack his soul in the justification? Because if thier fast enough to attack his soul and battle and it's put under the justification of their Massively FTL+ rating, it would suggest they have Massively FTL+ Combat/Reaction/Attack Speed.

I might take a look at Cardfight!!! Vanguard series so I could better help here. I'll see if I could find the time.

 

[Bobsican]

While standards are a thing for a reason and all, an exception can also be made for cases that are clearly qualified to be, and this appears to be one of these cases given the context, so if anything I would consider rewriting the current rule if double standards are a concern.
That being said, I still support Kukui's thoughts, they require less assumptions and are more accurate overall.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, I'll apologize for how I made that last response come out. I shouldn't have pivoted to that. But I still stand by my points.

I also want to reiterate 2 things from before that seem to be getting missed.

That, however, would require more assumptions than initially set. You normally wouldn't begin to drop your speed until you have witnessed the place you definitely want to stop at. Particularly if there's any hurrying in the mixture.

Coming to a slow before reaching a landing point on a planet would require you to know where that landing point on the planet is beforehand in order to discern when to stop early. These characters in this feat don't have that.

And if the traveler is in a rush, that gives more precedent to not slow down, but move as fast as possible to where you're going.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Also the scaling suggested makes no sense for the 2rd key... (Check the bolded part)

"At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+ travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, explicitly requiring them in order to battle in cardfights; Aichi's Units have shown to be fast enough to attack his soul; Superior to the speed of Ren's Units)"

If you aren't scaling flight speed of the souls to their reaction speed, why are them requiring Units for fighting, and Aichi's Units being fast enough to attack his soul in the justification? Because if thier fast enough to attack his soul and battle and it's put under the justification of their Massively FTL+ rating, it would suggest they have Massively FTL+ Combat/Reaction/Attack Speed.

That's my fault, that's the old justification and I forgot to omit it.

 

[AKM sama]

However, here we see the character fly straight down to the planet as the same streak of light he was when he took off and flew through space. We even see he still applying force from his speed since the clouds part when he passes and then smashing into the ground to gain all the characters attention. He showed no indication that he slowed down tremendously and I think evidence should be provided that he did slow his decent.

Again, none of this is relevant in proving that they were shown to land at MFTL+ speed. As already pointed out before.

That's my fault, that's the old justification and I forgot to omit it.

What would be the new justification?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"As pointed out before" is based off misinformation. The location on the planet was not known beforehand, so we don't have a basis to assume they are going to slow until that location is seen during the flight.

Along with the fact that they were in a rush to get to that location as well.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

By the way, this point wasn't brought up earlier:

However, here we see the character fly straight down to the planet as the same streak of light he was when he took off and flew through space.

Seeing this, this should also be a good supporting detail. Staying as the same streak of light through the journey all the way through to the landing would be an indicator of not slowing too. Otherwise, the light streak coming from the speed's movement would've dissipated the slower they got.

 

[AKM sama]

The planet being known beforehand is enough for them to adjust. This is a classic case of travel speed and there is literally no way it can scale to any other form of speed unless you literally change the standards. As far as the "more people agree with me" argument goes, ignoring that it is appeal to popularity, you seem to be forgetting that many people including staff members had already agreed with the CRT and your "new" points brought nothing noteworthy to the table.

Seeing this, this should also be a good supporting detail. Staying as the same streak of light through the journey all the way through to the landing would be an indicator of not slowing too. Otherwise, the light streak coming from the speed's movement would've dissipated the slower they got.

We only see this light when they take off, and when they land. Not anywhere in between where the speed would be highest. Unless there is proof that this light only appears when they travel at their full speed and gets dissipated when they get slower, this point holds no value.

 

[Quangotjokes]

What would be the new justification?

Should just scale from being superior in general.