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Had feeling but I wanted to be sure. Since I felt like I was a bit vague on Heavy Payload.
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Major My Hero Academia Speed Downgrade! (Probably).
- Thread starter Maitreya12
- Start date
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You’re cool. I probably should’ve quoted it in the original post, to be honest.
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Air having mass is vastly different than turning photon into mass. I said that because unless we're saying the Air Cannon + Heavy Payload combination turned photons into mass, there's nothing to suggest that Radio Waves became slower. Putting more air around photons doesn't change anything after all, it doesn't make it slower.
I noticed OP mentioned this thread, with a water jet and spike, as an example. This is a false equivalence, water is something that already has mass to it. If you add more water or anything with mass, it will weigh more and be slower if fired in the same exact manner. Heavier objects do indeed become slower without additional power.
The spike has no set speed, it can only be moved by outside force. Not only that but this is mass interacting with mass.
Photons do not operate on this logic, they are not mass and move at a constant speed. The only reason photons are "slower" in air is that they reflect/diffuse off the air particles. It's still moving at the same speed, just that it's being reflect slightly. As I explained above.
Unless OP actually thinks Air Cannon is propelling Radio Waves, meaning Radio Waves is "stuck" to Air Cannon and cannot move outside of it? This is also incorrect as we know the two can operate independently when fired together. During the All Out War Arc, where Tomura uses Air Cannon + Radio Waves to achieve two things.
You can clearly see Radio Waves' reaching Burnin's communicator, as it's sparking from the EMP damage, yet the Air Cannon isn't touching her. The purpose of the Air Cannon was to propel himself towards One For All. While impossible to tell how big the Air Cannon is, because it's air/invisible, it doesn't cause any destruction anywhere.
Even without that moment, the idea Air Cannon is propelling Radio Waves is absurd. Fiction can indeed do anything, you cannot just say anything and hope it sticks.
Occam's Razor is in effect. What does Air Cannon + Radio Waves + Heavy Payload mean?
Air Cannon and Radio Waves are fired off while boosted by Heavy Payload. I think we can all agree with this. Nowhere does this mean the photons of Radio Waves gained mass and thus became slower, nor does this mean Radio Waves became attached to Air Cannon and was being propelled by it. That is an overcomplication.
If the OP wants to prove that Radio Waves is slower, they must show undeniable proof that is the case. And I don't believe they have from what I'm seeing here.
Not certain what else I can say on this subject if the OP still disagrees.
I noticed OP mentioned this thread, with a water jet and spike, as an example. This is a false equivalence, water is something that already has mass to it. If you add more water or anything with mass, it will weigh more and be slower if fired in the same exact manner. Heavier objects do indeed become slower without additional power.
The spike has no set speed, it can only be moved by outside force. Not only that but this is mass interacting with mass.
Photons do not operate on this logic, they are not mass and move at a constant speed. The only reason photons are "slower" in air is that they reflect/diffuse off the air particles. It's still moving at the same speed, just that it's being reflect slightly. As I explained above.
Unless OP actually thinks Air Cannon is propelling Radio Waves, meaning Radio Waves is "stuck" to Air Cannon and cannot move outside of it? This is also incorrect as we know the two can operate independently when fired together. During the All Out War Arc, where Tomura uses Air Cannon + Radio Waves to achieve two things.
You can clearly see Radio Waves' reaching Burnin's communicator, as it's sparking from the EMP damage, yet the Air Cannon isn't touching her. The purpose of the Air Cannon was to propel himself towards One For All. While impossible to tell how big the Air Cannon is, because it's air/invisible, it doesn't cause any destruction anywhere.
Even without that moment, the idea Air Cannon is propelling Radio Waves is absurd. Fiction can indeed do anything, you cannot just say anything and hope it sticks.
Occam's Razor is in effect. What does Air Cannon + Radio Waves + Heavy Payload mean?
Air Cannon and Radio Waves are fired off while boosted by Heavy Payload. I think we can all agree with this. Nowhere does this mean the photons of Radio Waves gained mass and thus became slower, nor does this mean Radio Waves became attached to Air Cannon and was being propelled by it. That is an overcomplication.
If the OP wants to prove that Radio Waves is slower, they must show undeniable proof that is the case. And I don't believe they have from what I'm seeing here.
Not certain what else I can say on this subject if the OP still disagrees.
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Please, I ask kindly that you do not put worlds in my mouth. I never said the photons “turned into mass” I said the quirks were combined and therefore mixed. for all we know the photons could be traveling alongside or propelling the air, but I make no claim it’s specifically one way or the other like that.
But photons having to carry air does. Not moving around it, carrying the mass itself along with it.
I’m gonna explain it like this so hopefully it’s understood, for some ungod known reason I can’t paste anything, so I can’t provide links or post images so I just have to describe it.
The issue with the calc is that it assumes the WHOLE attack is light speed. It pixel scales Stars moving out of the way of the whole attack’s wide range to derive her speed.
But only the photons themselves would be traveling at light speed. There’s no evidence the surrounding air around the radio waves would be light speed as well, thereby meaning the distance the calc provides wouldn’t be accurate to the speed the attack is traveling at. As if the photons are not propelling the air, then they are traveling as separate attacks and thus have differing speeds from one another.
If the radio waves are not attached to the air canon then that means they are traveling as two separate attacks fired together rather than as a combination of multiple things into one attack, but then that would mean the distance the calc provides wouldn’t be valid as it measures the distance of the air’s wide range as part of the attack traveling at light speed, rather than the small scattering of radio waves littered throughout the attack.
If you can provide the pixel scaled image, here for showing as again I can’t paste anything for whatever reason, I can explain my point better if it’s confused.
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Interesting points.
My original thoughts was that it was the Air Cannon, in other words the air waves, which was carrying the Radio waves, in other words photons, as the Air Cannon was meant to increase the range and guide the direction of the radio waves.
In any case, the fact that both the Air Cannon and Radio Waves were moving at the same rate would imply that the attack itself wasn't light speed or the Air Cannon itself is also light speed due to moving along the Radio Waves.
Remaining neutral until I read through the entire thread.
My original thoughts was that it was the Air Cannon, in other words the air waves, which was carrying the Radio waves, in other words photons, as the Air Cannon was meant to increase the range and guide the direction of the radio waves.
In any case, the fact that both the Air Cannon and Radio Waves were moving at the same rate would imply that the attack itself wasn't light speed or the Air Cannon itself is also light speed due to moving along the Radio Waves.
Remaining neutral until I read through the entire thread.
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We really don't need to twist our necks this much. Air canon is very distinctly visualized as Electricity fx. The calc is done of that basis.
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Can I have you clarify what “basis” you are referring to?
Again, I wish I could post the image of the pixel scaled image used in the calc, but this is the best I can do.
https//:imgur.com/RdTYRvk
(I manually typed that out)
The basis the calc uses is using radio waves as the speed of the entire attack and measuring the distance Stars moved compared to the range of the air being pushed.
The electricity with the manga panel is thin and erratic and seemingly goes around the outside of the air blast, while the calc is using the height Stars jumped above the air blast itself as a basis for the distance.
Which wouldn’t be correct as it would have to then assumes the air is traveling at light speed along with the radio waves.
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Where is this stated or shown?
We can see the cloud's moving, but that's moving slower and isn't moving the same distance as the Radio Waves. So Air Cannon does cover around there and I'm pretty sure the entire effect we see does have Air Cannon. But where does it show Air Cannon is moving at the same speed as Radio Waves and vice versa?
I don't see anything to suggest the Air Cannon was moving at SoL.
Can someone point out where in this screen shot does it show that Air Cannon and Radio Waves are moving at the same rate? The full attack goes off screen, so we don't know the full distance both the Air Cannon and Radio Waves covered. Why isn't it possible for Air Cannon to be lagging behind Radio Waves by however fast the attack is?
Note: The calc is Star dodging Radio Waves, not the Air Cannon. She had no idea what he was going to fire beyond guessing an EMP.
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After going through the counter-arguments to the OP, I'm switching my position to disagree.
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Uhh isn’t that something you yourself said and argued for?
My Hero Academia: America Brings Speed Upgrades
Is it possible for him to be rated as SOL using this? He could blitz all of the jets, which could also react and dodge Tomura's attack too. We even see that one of them moved after Star jumped off but still avoided the blast. Him outpacing them and blitzing them before they could finish the word...
Post 69 since the link doesn’t work as intended.
Anyways which is it for you? Because it’s a catch 22 either way.
Either the air canons travel separately at a separate speed than the radio waves, meaning the speed measured by the calc would be inaccurate as it includes the air as part of the distance Stars is avoiding at light speed and if the air isn’t traveling at light speed then the timeframe measured would be inaccurate as well.
Or it’s fired together as the same attack, at which point it cannot be proven the attack itself travels at light speed as it is not simply massless photons, but is carrying actual mass with it as well.
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No it doesn't, honestly not sure how you see that. It seems you're under a massive misconception, she dodged the EMP itself.
You're saying she only dodged Air Cannon, which is incorrect and is not what I'm calculating.
The idea that Star was hit by the EMP and not the Air Cannon is unfounded, we see her dodge it all. In fact She has a communicator, which would've been fired by the EMP if she was hit by it. Yet we see a short time later that it's working fine, meaning she avoided the EMP. And she doesn't have a EMP shield like the jets, which she jumped off of.
However, as I said, just the manga alone isn't enough since she could've jumped before he fired.
But the anime showed it was after he fired, meaning she did indeed avoid the attack. Note: The width or height the Radio Wave reach is irrelevant. Because that's not the part being used to say it moves at lightspeed. The timeframe is how long it'd take to reach her and we see how big the attack is when it does reach her.
The fact we know she avoided the EMP completely, means she must've jumped the distance I measured at minimum to avoid getting caught in it.
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That is not what I’m saying at all. Again, I am kindly asking you to not put words in my mouth as this is the second time now it’s been done.
It would though, because she can dodge the electromagnetic waves just fine, but the distance she needs to move is greatly reduced as those electrical blasts are much thinner than the very thick and wide air canons.
See, here’s another thing I noticed with your calc and its usage of the anime.
The distance you measured from the manga is entirely different from the distance Stars jumped to avoid the attack in the anime.
As you can see, Stars isn’t depicted as being in the center of the attack, but rather being at the very top of it.
So the distance would still be further inaccurate as if you’re using the anime as a basis to fill in the gaps or what have you for how you’re scaling the feat, it’s entirely different.
So there’s even more issue it seems.
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Well no, we're not calculating the anime version of this feat. The only thing the anime does for us here is clarify when Star starts to jump - the one thing we needed answered before we could reliably calc this feat
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This seems weird to me cause it’s kinda like trying to have your cake and eat it too.
If you’re using the anime to clarify when Star jumps, why aren’t you using it to clarify what distance Stars is away from the blast as well?
The calculation assumes that Stars is completely level with Shigaraki and is at the very epicenter of the attack.
But if the anime is being used as clarification for the feat, then the assumption that Stars is at the epicenter would then be unfounded, because the anime would better clarify the distance at which Stars was from the attack just like it’s being used to clarify what moment in time Stars jumped from the attack’s launch.
Picking and choose what you want to keep from the anime and what you want to disregard seems more like an artificial inflation of the feat. As I see no reason why someone shouldn’t disregard the anime’s interpretation of when Stars jumps in relation to Shigaraki’s attack just as you disregard the anime’s interpretation of the distance Stars was from avoiding the attack.
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Well no, that's not how it works. We use the anime to clarify things, but we're not gonna calculate the anime version of the feat. Looking at the manga, Star and Shigaraki are pretty level with each other. Hence, we use the epicenter.
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Assumes is pretty wild, look again at the scans being provided in the actual blog
MHA: Star Dodges Radio Waves
vsbattles.fandom.com
They quite literally calculate stars distand from shigaraki using a shot they share together where they are indeed level to each other
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That’s not exactly true actually.Assumes is pretty wild, look again at the scans being provided in the actual blog
MHA: Star Dodges Radio Waves
They quite literally calculate stars distand from shigaraki using a shot they share together where they are indeed level to each other
That scan of Stars and Shigaraki being level with one another has an extra page to it showing Stars and the Jets around her beginning to move, meaning she would no longer be in the same position the calculation assumes she’s in.
I don’t think this was purposeful by any means, don’t get me wrong, but it is not accurate to say Stars was in that same position, especially with clarified by the anime which shows Stars to be in a different position than depicted in the calc.
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It seems like a really arbitrary distinction to say the anime can be used to clarify when Stars jumped, but not be used to clarify what distance in which she moves from the attack.
There is an extra page in between being eye level where all the Jets are clearly moving in different positions before Shigaraki fires his attack.
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Your image is broken but regardless dude what are ya talking about
First shot straight ahead
Second shot straight ahead
Third shot she tells the jets to form up which we see additionally in the anime wasn't too drastic a movement they're still essentially straight ahead of him then he fires straight which we see so I'm not sure where you're getting this argument of a drastic position shift and the "assumption" that they aren't in the same position anymore
Stars jet doesn't exactly have the luxury of moving in the same formation as the others cause she's standing on it so like literally no reason to assume they moved off elsewhere when thats not shown or implied aside from the other jets chaning formation
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I feel like you’re totally misunderstanding why they needed the “when.” It’s to validate if it is or isn’t an aimdodge. A good example of a this is Sukuna’s evasion of Kashimo’s EM Wave. There’s really no good or effective no way to tell if this is him aimdodging or reacting by moving after fire based on the movement of this paneling. (I personally believe it’s aimdodging because of the light emission and the “Flash/Spark” of CE that comes before every moderate/large scale CT, but that’s neither here nor there).
Thus, we need to wait for the Anime to clarify so we can accurately judge the order of the events that transpired to get a calculation that relies on less assumptions/is accurate.
They’re not using the anime to get a specific timeframe that makes the jump faster, they’re using the anime to determine if she even actually, reactively, dodged it to begin with.
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It's not arbitrary at all. When Star jumped was unclear in the manga, which the anime clarified. However, the anime showed Star as being in a different position compared to in the manga - and in the event of a contradiction, we default to the primary source material.
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And the distance Star evaded in the attack is unclear in the manga, which the anime also clarified.
No it did not, like I mentioned before, there’s an extra panel in between the ones used in the calc showing literally all of the Jets moving alongside Star. Which means there is no contradiction in the manga.
And since there’s no contradiction, the assumption made in the calc is invalid and simply deferred to the anime.
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The distance she evaded is literally calculated brother, we know how far away she was from shiggy ans the accepted end uses that distance and the verticle jump she'd need to evade
Don't forget what rusty has said additionally
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Ok, literally this by itself debunks the argument.
They are not in the position the calc assumes.
They have moved, Stars literally says to go into battle formation, and there’s a whole nother page in between 3 and 4 of your link of Shigaraki talking and getting ready to fire the attack. Which is even more time that they have moved.
There is no contradiction.
For there to be contradiction, the manga has to show Star was in that position when Shigaraki is about to fire that attack, but that’s not what the manga shows, as it only shows Stars being level with Shiggy well before he even begun to get into position to fire the attack.
Where have you gotten “essentially straight ahead” of him? Because that is an assumption.
The anime shows and directly clarifies that Stars was NOT in the epicenter of Shigaraki’s attack.
And the manga does not show this either.
You have assumed this for the calc, but this goes against the anime’s clarification of the scene. Which we differ to in cases of clarification.
You literally admitted to show in which Stars has moved from the position she was in earlier. What does her standing on it have to do with her not being able to move along with the jets? I don’t see how that’s the case when she quite literally jumps on jets that are in the middle of combat.
Again, that is an assumption made which goes against what is clarified in the anime.
There is no contradiction within the manga as nowhere is it show Stars is at the epicenter when Shigaraki fires the attack, that’s simply assumed, but if there is no contradiction present between the anime and the manga, we would differ to the anime’s clarification, rather than an assumption made.
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You do not, you ASSUME she was at the epicenter, but this goes directly against what the anime has clarified and nowhere in the manga does it show Stars at the epicenter when Shigaraki fired the attack, there was movement in between the pages.
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This is just incorrect, we use the manga for this. The anime didn't clarify anything
We see all these manga panels showing the two being level with each other, and the jet Star is on (nor the High-End that Shigaraki is on) does not change its vertical trajectory at all, so what you're saying just really doesn't hold up. This assertion, too, is incorrect
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bruh Star's jet literally hasn't switched positions the other jets got into battle formation around her, are you just intentionally acting clueless here? other than the other jets forming up around her they only move after the radio waves are fired so no nothing has debunked itself.
literally every shot?
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I just watched the scene in the anime and you can literally see the Jets moving up in the sky. Including Stars’.
Alright dude, you need to stop with this incredible rude attitude of yours.
Notice how I don’t insult insult you or call you intentionally dishonest or clueless in any of my posts responding to you.
Notice how nobody else is throwing those insults like you are towards me even though they disagree with me as well. Not Clover, not Rusty, just you.
Even when you’re the one who says I’m “intentionally reading wrong” because you’re not reading my posts correctly.
Bruh are you intentionally reading this wrong
I don’t call you clueless, I don’t claim you’re “intentionally reading wrong” or say you’re stonewalling and things of that nature. In fact, I think my response was really kind to you.
So like stop with these digs bro, it’s mad weird behavior and I don’t like to call you out, but you’re just starting to insult me at this point.
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Yes it did. It clarified the movement of Stars and Stripes and her Jets. We didn’t see where the jets moved to in the manga when Shiggy fired his attack, but the anime clarified it.
And then we have a manga page where Star says to move to battle formation and all the jets begin to move, and then another page where Shigaraki is talking (giving more time for the jets to move) and then gets in position before firing his attack.
Nowhere is it shown Stars is level with Shiggy during his firing of the attack and there was movement between the pages where they were level. There’s no contradiction.
Actually, we can really see the Jets moving up in the sky in the anime. I quite literally just double checked.
The manga doesn’t clarify where all the jets have moved in between the pages where Stars say to move to battle formation and Shigaraki fires his attack, we just see Star say “battle formation” and movement of the jets.
Where the jets moved to is entirely not clarified in the manga. Thereby you are simply assuming she hadn’t moved at all, which goes against the anime’s clarification of the scene that directly shows Stars and all the Jets moving UP in the sky right when she says to move into battle formation and to smash.
So there is no contradiction present in the manga. the jets moved and where they moved precisely is entirely unclear, therefore we differ to the anime for clarification rather than ignore it for fan assumption which cannot be proven.
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All of this is about the other jets. I don’t care about the other jets. I care about the one Star was standing on, which was moving straight ahead.
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Rude? If you think asking you if you're being intentionally clueless is "incredibly rude" you need to take a serious break and cool off my guy. Also like insults? seriously dude? If you're taking this much offense then i don't even know what to tell you genuinely.
also who is stone walling you? I've done nothing but provide scans again and again to show that your claims have been incorrect so what even are you on about right now?
Also the anime scene is right here, the jets literally move up to form around star, she isn't rising or going anywhere off course horizontally so once again man what is this stone walling or whatever you're on about
you have yet to provide any scans to actually prove your claims from the moment you actually made the OP so you cannot actually be serious right especially trying to dig deep into shit like its some personal attack on who you are as a person.
Fact of the matter is they are still directly in front of shigaraki and have made no other kind of drastic movement like you're claiming here
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We literally know from several previous shots in the manga and anime alone that they were level to shigaraki position as I provided already here
They form up around star when she orders them to take battle positions, star jet hasn't done any crazy movements or gone off from where it was prior the anime and manga both show this so actually man what are we talking about right now?
Not feeling you making this into some kind of personal beef so I'm leaving my disagreements for reasons already provided and calling it a day here
They form up around star when she orders them to take battle positions, star jet hasn't done any crazy movements or gone off from where it was prior the anime and manga both show this so actually man what are we talking about right now?
Not feeling you making this into some kind of personal beef so I'm leaving my disagreements for reasons already provided and calling it a day here
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Yeah bro calling people “clueless” and saying they’re “intentionally reading wrong” is pretty insulting. That’s pretty common sense actually.
If you don’t see how that can be insulting towards a person, I don’t know what to tell you either besides it is and I’m asking you to stop.
Did you read how I said I don’t call you those things???? Like what in tarnation, why are you acting like I called you that when I expressly told you I don’t.
Oh funny I actually have the scene in question right here as well.
I fixed my thing.
Look at that she’s rising. Literally we see the two jets rising up in the sky.
So what are you talking about?
That’s so crazy except all the times I literally manually typed out the links because I wanted to provide sources for my claims.
Major My Hero Academia Speed Downgrade! (Probably).
Hm? No, I was referring to Maitreya’s comment. Had feeling but I wanted to be sure. Since I felt like I was a bit vague on Heavy Payload.
Major My Hero Academia Speed Downgrade! (Probably).
Hm? No, I was referring to Maitreya’s comment. Had feeling but I wanted to be sure. Since I felt like I was a bit vague on Heavy Payload.
Bro, define what the phrases “intentionally reading wrong” and “intentionally clueless” mean to you?
Pages 3 shows the jets beginning to move, there is a page in between showing Shigaraki talking and getting ready to fire his attack, and then the page after does he actually fire his attack.
What you showed is them being level with Shigaraki BEFORE the jets moved, you’ve never shown me them being level after.
You don’t know what position Stars’ jet moves to because there is a page IN BETWEEN the jets moving and Shigaraki firing the attack in your link.
You’re only making the assumption her jet didn’t move, but this is directly contradicted by the anime literally showing the jets moving upwards in the sky.
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I fixed my wiki so I can actually post links now.
Here you go, see Stars standing on the plane, she says battle formation, and then we see the planes move up and get in the camera’s way, before moving out of view to show two planes rising upwards. One of which being the one we directly see Stars standing on.
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Yeah. This happens in the anime. This rise does not happen in the manga. Hence the contradiction
In the manga, Star's jet isn't shown rising at all - only moving straight toward Shigaraki. So there is in fact a contradiction, and we should defer to the primary source material: the manga.
I believe I've made my stance on this super clear, so I don't see myself commenting much further after this. I feel I'd pretty much repeat myself like a professional yapper
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said "are you intentionally just acting clueless" and actually and the reading wrong one yeah you used several sources saying light in atmosphere is still nigh = the SoL in vacuum with others corroborating that fact and you used that to say things outside of the light are moving light speed and that radio waves are drastically slower in atmosphere when I showed it clearly is not
no one and I mean quite literally no one said the jets are level after they move, as we have ALL said every jet moves to form around stars, hers isn't rising, not one person has said they go back level after. the just indeed form up around Star and Stripe we have already been saying that this entire time. The point is that stars isn't moving, the manga has no scene where Star's jet rises or moves into a different course, the other jets simply form around her.
same thing I said before though this is my last comment
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Clover, that’s not a contradiction. Just because we didn’t see the exact movement doesn’t make it a contradiction.
A “contradiction” means something that cannot exist in the story. An impossibility as it goes against the established narrative.
Stars rising up doesn’t go against the manga, she could’ve just done so in the page before Shigaraki fired his attack, when he was talking to himself. We just saw the jets move, but we don’t know what position they moved to, so it’s not a contradiction for her to move upwards.
Stars does not jump BEFORE Shigaraki fires his attack in the manga, that’s an anime thing. By that logic it’s also a “contradiction” as the manga never showed when Stars jumped exactly, just as the manga never showed what exact position Stars’ battle formation moved to.
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I think the discussion has gone too far off the rails as this has nothing to do with the initial argument, plus we are treating Shigaraki like he is stupid if we really believe that just because Star and the jets moved higher (in the anime at least) he would no longer be able to target their direction and fire the Radio Waves properly.
Except in the manga Shigaraki already had named the attacks he was gonna use, with his hand pointing at Star and the jets' direction, then on the next panel we see Star jumping, and on the next page we see the Radio Waves already past through the picture, so at no moment we actually get to see when exactly Shigaraki fired his Radio Waves, which is what the anime makes more clear by telling us that he fired his attack at this exact moment.
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A contradiction doesn't need to be a narrative impossibility. It's literally just "the manga did X, the anime did Y, so we go with X." Hence the whole "Star's jet rising" thing. You're assuming she might've risen in the manga version despite not being suggested.
With Star jumping, it's simply "she did X in the anime, and we don't know quite what she did in the manga so we'll defer to X." Star didn't quite jump before Shigaraki fired the radio waves, it was around the same time. That's why we can use this feat, because it was unclear in the manga and might've been aim-dodging.
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