Cardfight speed downgrade

[AKM sama]

Under normal circumstances, I think I would've completely agreed with Kukui, but the new speed standards really complicated things for a lot of verses. Unless there's some additional context that I'm missing here, I feel like both interpretations are somewhat plausible, which is why I'm really in favor of the compromise solution. I don't think that we can conclusively prove it one way or the other.

The positive needs to be proven. The new standards make it so that the travel speed does not scale to other forms of speed by default and such a scaling would require evidence of the characters maneuvering while moving at MFTL+ speeds. Something that cannot be conclusively proven here.

It's impossible to know for certain when they slowed down to prepare for landing, but since they were aiming for a specific landing position (correct me if I'm wrong), and their vision was obstructed until they passed through the cloud layer, then I'd say there's more than enough room for doubt to say that they may have slowed down really close to the planet's surface. And at such speeds, I'd imagine they'd have to somewhat scale to their flight speeds if that were the case, right?

They could see the planet, and that is all that's required to be prepared. I can move my car at a speed of 200 but if I see my destination from a kilometer away, I'd be prepared to stop my car when I reach closer. This is not an evidence that enables scaling.

I'd suggest you should also take a closer look at the threads I linked above that go into detail regarding how the standards work. It's not good when an admin and a thread mod are struggling to understand the standards correctly, which they should since they have to make judgment calls in threads.

Sorry, but just because someone is not dropping the argument despite being repeatedly told to do so, we are not going to compromise and show a blatant disregard for the standards.

If no new feats are going to come up, I will apply the changes and close the thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd be on the side of travel speed not scaling to reactions here yeah

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The could see the planet, and that is all that's required to be prepared. I can move my car at a speed of 200 but if I see my destination from a kilometer away

Again, they couldn't have seen the destination from that far away. How many times do I need to repeat this? You're ignoring this and just circularly repeating "they can see the planet, thats enough" when its NOT.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The counter-argument against this is to claim they would have slowed down when approaching the planet in outer space since, apparently, seeing the planet would all be needed to slow down. Basically what the flight speed rule outlines as a possible factor against reactions.

However, this should not be applicable here in this case with what Takuto did. Because he and Ultra Ware were trying to find the specific location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other, this is not a case of a typical "Oh I see the planet, I'll slow down and land just anywhere now" like in a typical traveling feat the rule talks about. They were trying to locate a specific location on Planet Cray. A location they couldn't see from outer space because it was covered by clouds. So when they approach Planet Cray in outer space, seeing Cray coming up wouldn't be enough information to go off to slow down, because their landing point couldn't be found from that far away.

They would, instead, have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray trying to find that location for them to land at.

And thats why the counter argument makes no sense, because it's just assuming someone would slow down without yet having all of the available details to even think about slowing down. It's playing the feat off as "Takuto saw Cray, so he'll slow down and land anywhere". Which blatantly isn't the context. He has to travel around Cray to find the landing location, so logistically, he wouldn't think to slow down until that location is spotted.

I'd advise you to read this and explain how slowing is going to be done before you see the place your going to land at. Im sick of these circular dismissive arguments that aren't addressing any of this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So far, my thoughts are more or less the same as UchihaSlayer's, thought I'm going to remain openminded. Although, AKM is right the positive requires more evidence, but I'm willing to hear a summary for both sides with scans or details in mind.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So far, my thoughts are more or less the same as UchihaSlayer's, thought I'm going to remain openminded. Although, AKM is right the positive requires more evidence, but I'm willing to hear a summary for both sides with scans or details in mind.

Understood. The positive needing evidence is no issue, so I'll give you a summary from what I posted above.

I know that. The path to Cray isn't what im talking about here. Im talking about when they approach Cray.

Takuto and Ultra Rare were going to the location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other. Or more specifically, where Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark were. However, this location on Cray was covered by clouds, so it wouldn't have been able to be spotted when they approached Cray in space. And I don't know if you saw earlier, but I gave a scan to show trajectory would have happened.

Since this location couldn't be spotted from that far away, they would have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray to get to it. And since it couldn't be spotted in space, they did not yet have the available information to slow down that early. That's my point.

The counter-argument against this is to claim they would have slowed down when approaching the planet in outer space since, apparently, seeing the planet would all be needed to slow down. Basically what the flight speed rule outlines as a possible factor against reactions.

However, this should not be applicable here in this case with what Takuto did. Because he and Ultra Ware were trying to find the specific location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other, this is not a case of a typical "Oh I see the planet, I'll slow down and land just anywhere now" like in a typical traveling feat the rule talks about. They were trying to locate a specific location on Planet Cray. A location they couldn't see from outer space because it was covered by clouds. So when they approach Planet Cray in outer space, seeing Cray coming up wouldn't be enough information to go off to slow down, because their landing point couldn't be found from that far away.

They would, instead, have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray trying to find that location for them to land at.

And thats why the counter argument makes no sense, because it's just assuming someone would slow down without yet having all of the available details to even think about slowing down. It's playing the feat off as "Takuto saw Cray, so he'll slow down and land anywhere". Which blatantly isn't the context. He has to travel around Cray to find the landing location, so logistically, he wouldn't think to slow down until that location is spotted.

To sum up, the factor that determines whether or not reactions can scale is if and when the destination is able to be seen by the characters. The argument for disagreeing with reactions scaling uses the basis of "They saw the planet when approaching, and that is enough to use to decide when to slow down".

My argument against this is that seeing the planet would not be enough information to decide to slow down early. These characters were not just flying to any random place on the planet. They were looking for a specific location on the planet that they did not know where it was beforehand. And they were in a rush to get to this location.

This location they were searching for on the planet was covered by a layer of clouds, so it was unable to be seen from outer space in order to enable them to think to stop early. In other words, the destination could not be seen yet from outer space, only when passing through the layer of clouds on the planets surface.

So the issue here is determining when the slowing would happen. Before seeing the destination or after seeing it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Traveling through space, by default, would not scale to reactions or what have you. Furthermore, based on the argument as I understand it, much of this requires interpretation to see it as Kukui presents it- interpretation that may well be valid, mind you, but still great amounts of interpretation nonetheless. Because of this, I am inclined to agree with AKM.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Traveling through space, by default, would not scale to reactions or what have you. Furthermore, based on the argument as I understand it, much of this requires interpretation to see it as Kukui presents it- interpretation that may well be valid, mind you, but still great amounts of interpretation nonetheless.

Can I ask how? Like I've been asking in this thread, why would someone slow down before they are able to see their destination and then think of slowing? I haven't been given an answer to this.

Ignoring the characters being in a rush for a moment.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, I'm not sure if it should fully scale to reactions. Since they would have to be very close to it before they noticed the very specific location and thus the reaction time would have to be very short. Though, reaction time is often perception rather than speed unless there's movement distance. Which I know would be interpreted as either pulling a level, pushing a button, hitting the breaks, ect here. So distance they moved arm, leg, or finger compared to how far away from the specific location on the planet when they reacted would be the thing to calculate to scale to reactions. But not sure if there is a way to properly calculate that.

 

[AKM sama]

Can I ask how? Like I've been asking in this thread, why would someone slow down before they are able to see their destination and then think of slowing? I haven't been given an answer to this.

You have been. Several times. You refuse to acknowledge it because it doesn't suit your view.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Can I ask how? Like I've been asking in this thread, why would someone slow down before they are able to see their destination and then think of slowing? I haven't been given an answer to this.

Ignoring the characters being in a rush for a moment.

Let's say you're running, top speed, straight line. The track is decently long, say a 50-meter dash. You get near the end. Do you come to a full stop immediately before the wall you know to be there? Or do you run into the wall and let physics do the work? Any right-minded person would know, you need to slow down.

Now, I know how this conversation has gone in the past, so I intend to leave it at that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean, I'm not sure if it should fully scale to reactions. Since they would have to be very close to it before they noticed the very specific location and thus the reaction time would have to be very short. Though, reaction time is often perception rather than speed unless there's movement distance. Which I know would be interpreted as either pulling a level, pushing a button, hitting the breaks, ect here. So distance they moved arm, leg, or finger compared to how far away from the specific location on the planet when they reacted would be the thing to calculate to scale to reactions. But not sure if there is a way to properly calculate that.

This was accounted for a page or 2 ago IIRC. One of them.

It wouldn't scale to the full flight, but because the reacting should only start to happen once viewing the location, the distance that would be used would be the distance between the ground / planets surface and the lowest clouds (since they're passing through clouds and couldn't see it until after passing them). Thats roughly 2 KM I believe.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Let's say you're running, top speed, straight line. The track is decently long, say a 50-meter dash. You get near the end. Do you come to a full stop immediately before the wall you know to be there? Or do you run into the wall and let physics do the work? Any right-minded person would know, you need to slow down.

This isn't what's happening here though. The character's don't know the landing location beforehand. If they did, I would not be here arguing in its defense.

This is what I've been saying and trying to say for several responses now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, not sure on the method of how they hit the breaks, but assuming they needed to move their hand exactly one meter (Which I highly doubt it's that much and that it's significantly lower than that) then about 1/2000 would scale to their reactions assuming they were 2 km away when reacting.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well, not sure on the method of how they hit the breaks, but assuming they needed to move their hand exactly one meter (Which I highly doubt it's that much and that it's significantly lower than that) then about 1/2000 would scale to their reactions assuming they were 2 km away when reacting.

This is 2000x lower than the travel right?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, something like that. Again, this is assuming the button they had to push was one meter away from them and/or they had to move a meter to pull what lever to break and what not. Which again, I don't know the full details, but those are want to think of, You compare how fast the pilot physically had to move compared to how far way from the landing point is basically the answer as to what it would scale as far as reactions are concerned.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, something like that. Again, this is assuming the button they had to push was one meter away from them and/or they had to move a meter to pull what lever to break and what not. Which again, I don't know the full details, but those are want to think of, You compare how fast the pilot physically had to move compared to how far way from the landing point is basically the answer as to what it would scale as far as reactions are concerned.

Okie. Then yeah, this was accounted for a page or so earlier. While it would be lower, 2000x lower would keep the reactions at MFTL+ in relation to the travel speed.

Thats why the huge factor in whether the reactions would be that high or not comes down to when the slowing happens. Either before seeing the landing point or after seeing it.

 

[AKM sama]

This isn't what's happening here though. The character's don't know the landing location beforehand. If they did, I would not be here arguing in its defense.

They do. If I need to stop at the parking spot of a shopping mall, I will not enter the shopping mall at the speed of 200 and stop exactly when I see the parking spot. I will be prepared to slow down when I see the mall, and then slowly search for the parking space. This case is exactly that. They know they have reached the destination planet, so they are prepared to search for a desired location and land. This isn't hard to get.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

They do. If I need to stop at the parking spot of a shopping mall, I will not enter the shopping mall at the speed of 200 and stop exactly when I see the parking spot.

Thank you for giving an explanation this time (I mean this). But, this is a bad example to use here.

You aren't going to enter a shopping mall at the speed of 200 because of speed limits.

I will be prepared to slow down when I see the mall, and then slowly search for the parking space. This case is exactly that. They know they have reached the destination planet, so they are prepared to search for a desired location and land. This isn't hard to get.

Like I said above, speed limits are a thing for us to not go crazy fast. That isn't here for fictional characters.

But even then, this only works if the scenario doesn't factor in the characters rushing to get to their desired location. By that point, they would have no reason to search for the desired location slowly, but as fast as possible.

 

[Damage3245]

Forgive me if this is a bad argument but it seems like 99.99999% of the journey is cut out here in the video. When we actually see the light approaching the target planet, it is noticeably slower than MFTL+.

Couldn't it be possible that they decelerated prior to the shot of them approaching the planet in the video?

 

[Wokistan]

Are you under the impression that pilots just don't do anything if they're in a cloud?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Couldn't it be possible that they decelerated prior to the shot of them approaching the planet in the video?

The issue here is that while they are approaching the target planet, the target location on the planet they're searching for isn't in view from that far away (because its hidden by clouds). Slowing down is only normally decided to happen once you see the target location, because you know your going to be landing very soon. And if that was the case, then sure it's possible. But if its not viewed yet, why slow down before seeing it?

And even if we can reasonably assume they'd still slow down, this would be negated by the characters purposely not slowing if they are in a hurry to get to the landing spot as fast as possible.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are you under the impression that pilots just don't do anything if they're in a cloud?

What do you mean?

 

[Damage3245]

The issue here is that while they are approaching the target planet, the target location on the planet they're searching for isn't in view from that far away (because its hidden by clouds). Slowing down is only normally decided to happen once you see the target location, because you know your going to be landing very soon. And if that was the case, then sure it's possible. But if its not viewed yet, why slow down before seeing it?

Doesn't the planet itself count as part of the target destination?

And even if we can reasonably assume they'd still slow down, this would be negated by the characters purposely not slowing if they are in a hurry to get to the landing spot as fast as possible.

Do we have a statement saying they wouldn't slow down?

Watching the video, I don't see any signs of the characters reacting to anything. It's not very good as a feat to me personally.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Doesn't the planet itself count as part of the target destination?

Sure, but if you're not going to land in just any random spot after seeing the planet, but continue to search the planet for the location you want, why would you slow down?

For instance, if im someone traveling to mars and I don't care where I land, this would be when seeing the planet becomes enough because you are all ready to land at that point after seeing it.

But if there's a particular place on Mars I want to go to, and I don't know where it is beforehand, I would have to continue moving to locate it after seeing Mars. So the question is why I would slow down before seeing that particular place on the planet.

Do we have a statement saying they wouldn't slow down?

Watching the video, I don't see any signs of the characters reacting to anything. It's not very good as a feat to me personally.

The context isn't explained in this clip is why it's not there, but I can provide this with another one.

 

[Nierre]

Sure, but if you're not going to land in just any random spot after seeing the planet, but continue to search the planet for the location you want, why would you slow down?

For instance, if im someone traveling to mars and I don't care where I land, this would be when seeing the planet becomes enough because you are all ready to land at that point after seeing it.

But if there's a particular place on Mars I want to go to, and I don't know where it is beforehand, I would have to continue moving to locate it after seeing Mars. So the question is why I would slow down before seeing that particular place on the planet.

Yeah this makes sense to me. If you have a specific location you want to go to, on a specific planet, you won't slow down just because you see the planet, you slow down once you recognize the specific spot you're looking for. Then again that's just me, and I can easily see an argument for vise versa. So possibly/likely should work, no?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah this makes sense to me. If you have a specific location you want to go to, on a specific planet, you won't slow down just because you see the planet, you slow down once you recognize the specific spot you're looking for.

Exactly what I've been trying to say here. So the question is why would you slow down while you are searching for the specific spot?

This is what im finding arbitrary to think would happen.

 

[AKM sama]

So the question is why would you slow down while you are searching for the specific spot?

Your premise is faulty to begin with. You're doing nothing but grasping at straws the whole time. Please show evidence where they are searching for a specific spot to land? We see them coming down directly from top of a cloud cover. While your argument assumes they searched for a place after descending from the cloud cover because they can't see due to them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Your premise is faulty to begin with. You're doing nothing but grasping at straws the whole time. Please show evidence where they are searching for a specific spot to land? We see them coming down directly from top of a cloud cover. While your argument assumes they searched for a place after descending from the cloud cover because they can't see due to them.

Actually that isn't what I said. I never said or implied they searched after coming from the cloud cover. My argument is that they're searching for it before coming from the cloud layer.

 

[AKM sama]

So you're saying they can see their destination even with the cloud cover hindering their view?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So you're saying they can see their destination even with the cloud cover hindering their view?

No. But the fact that a trajectory change had to be done would assert that they had to search for it after approaching the planet. So between the trajectory change and when passing through the clouds would be the interval to search for the location.

 

[AKM sama]

No. But the fact that a trajectory change had to be done would assert that they had to search for it after approaching the planet. So between the trajectory change and when passing through the clouds would be the interval to search for the location.

Where is this trajectory change? Please tell. At what distance is it happening? How can someone find their exact location to land when the location is covered with clouds irrespective of the supposed trajectory change?

 

[AKM sama]

But if there's a particular place on Mars I want to go to, and I don't know where it is beforehand, I would have to continue moving to locate it after seeing Mars. So the question is why I would slow down before seeing that particular place on the planet.

Also, the answer to this question is simple and any person with a logical mind would be able to tell. If you are searching for something, you are actively looking for it. You need time to perceive the things you are looking at in order to identify those things. If you lost a ring in a park and you need to get it asap in order to not lose it, would you search for it while running at your top speed? Or would you slow down enough to be able to actually look for it clearly?

The number of straws you've been grasping on this thread needs some kind of recognition. And I've been incredibly patient with these non-arguments of yours. You need to understand that I will not continue to entertain you like this for eternity.

 

[SamanPatou]

Preface: I have literally 0 knowledge on the series, I've only skimmed through this last page and I've been asked to comment here.

Imho, due to how the feat is portrayed, I think scaling reactions from this travel feat requires way too many assumptions, and I agree with the likes of Damage and Armorchompy, and leave this only as a travel speed feat.

 

[Everything12]

Yeah, I also agree this shouldn't scale to reactions.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@LordGriffin1000 As Agnaa said, you should read these threads to get a proper understanding of how our standards are supposed to work. You are a sysop so you'll need to make judgment calls in future threads.

In case you have any doubts, feel free to ask questions on my message wall.

I do have a proper understanding of our flight speed standards, it's the literal reason why I just downgraded another verse that I know to just Massively FTL+ flight speed because they didn't meet our standards.

Me agree with ProfessorKukui4Life, doesn't mean I don't understand our standards, just that I think in this case, they should scale to reactions. Regardless, I'm clearly out voted on this and my do to my lack of knowledge on the series I'm not going to argue. Go again with the downgrades.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just a heads up, I am at work right now but I have a response in progress.

I will post when I get the chance.

 

[KingTempest]

Alright, I've been asked to comment here, so I'll try to give my opinion.
Though it should definitely be kept in mind that I have absolutely zero knowledge on the verse lol, so I'm just trying to navigate through the arguments presented here as best I could with my limited understanding. If I get something wrong, my apologies.

So from what I gathered, it seems that AKM is against reaction speed scaling to flight speed here because they supposedly had enough time to adjust and slow down before hitting the planet's surface. Meanwhile Kukui is arguing that because the characters were in a rush and could not see the surface or their desired landing positions before passing the cloud layer, then there's no reason to assume that they'd slow down before seeing where it is they wish to land. (If I misrepresented either of the arguments, then do let me know of course)

Uhhhhh, I think I'm leaning towards a compromise solution here tbh. Perhaps we should go for a Possibly or Likely rating in this case, because I kinda see the merits behind both arguments presented here.
Under normal circumstances, I think I would've completely agreed with Kukui, but the new speed standards really complicated things for a lot of verses. Unless there's some additional context that I'm missing here, I feel like both interpretations are somewhat plausible, which is why I'm really in favor of the compromise solution. I don't think that we can conclusively prove it one way or the other.

It's impossible to know for certain when they slowed down to prepare for landing, but since they were aiming for a specific landing position (correct me if I'm wrong), and their vision was obstructed until they passed through the cloud layer, then I'd say there's more than enough room for doubt to say that they may have slowed down really close to the planet's surface. And at such speeds, I'd imagine they'd have to somewhat scale to their flight speeds if that were the case, right?

Sooooooo yeah, probably not the most informed response, but it's the best I could manage after skimming through the arguments. I think a compromise solution might be best here.

Pretty much this

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My bad if the scans are not formatted correctly because I’m at work right now and am using mobile.

Anyway, to answer the questions before on trajectory, I showed the trajectory change on the previous page, but I’ll post it again. See here please:

The spot on the planet circled in red is where they were traveling to when approaching the planet and entering its atmosphere. And as you can see, that location is clearly not any body of land. This would be the ocean.

And obviously the landing location they went to is land

So the result here is that there was a trajectory change, or else they would not be landing on land. They would be landing in the ocean.

However, after rewatching something, I think there are new parameters we can use for this that take less assumption and are easier to work with here for claiming trajectory. On a more explicit basis.

Now as I said, the landing spot these guys went to is where Units on Cray were battling each other. So that means the body of land on Cray they landed at is where their battlefield is.

In an earlier scene, we can see directly what body of land they’re fighting on actually. There’s explosions on this continent/country coming from the fighting Units as we see Crays geography from space.

A continent with clouds above it as well:

And when we see them approach the planet from outer space, the same continent shown before is shown here too when they approach that side of the planet and go past it.

Circled in blue are the characters. Circled in red is the continent:

These should be easier parameters to work with then what I argued before, which may or may not change things going forward, but this should suffice all the same way.

This is proof that shows exactly where the landing location they wanted to land at is for them to go to. And this is proof of the characters not flying directly to the location as they fly towards the ocean, past it. So the only way they could land on the continent as the target location instead of the ocean is if they changed trajectory within the atmosphere of the planet.

Now to answer the question about the distance the trajectory would be made. Since we clearly see they are heading towards the planets ocean until they go out of view

And then afterwards land on the continent, they would by default have to have changed trajectory somewhere within the planets atmosphere. If this wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t have continued moving toward the ocean but changed trajectory much much sooner than that. So the distance for trajectory, roughly, should be cloud height from the planet surface.

On top of this, we then have the matter of rushing as said before. Evidence can be provided to suggest they were moving to the location as fast as possible, which would equate to them not slowing down (I can provide this context, but it has to wait a few hours when I’m home as I’m at work right now and don’t have access to it on my mobile).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Something else as well that I did not take into consideration until now

There also might have arguably been an unexpected obstacle for them to avoid during the feat near the planet (I’ll explain later when I’m off work).