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Cardfight speed downgrade

The planet being known beforehand is enough for them to adjust.

It is not. Your essentially arguing that even when the landing location isn't in view, they are still going to slow just because the planet was known for literally no reason or purpose. That doesn't make any sense.

This is a classic case of travel speed and there is literally no way it can scale to any other form of speed unless you literally change the standards.
I actually don't have to, because the arguments here are made to fit within these standards. Slowing happens only when the location comes into view, so you can discern when to slow after getting that information.

That information, here, doesn't come simply from seeing the planet. They need to see the landing spot on the planet before discerning when to slow. You are not going to slow yourself until you see the place your going to approach. That being the landing spot.
As far as the "more people agree with me" argument goes, ignoring that it is appeal to popularity, you seem to be forgetting that many people including staff members had already agreed with the CRT and your "new" points brought nothing noteworthy to the table.
"Many people"

2 regular users (1 being the OP) agreed with this before I brought in the recent arguments. Then you have 1 other staff member here, who fled mid way into this. These points as of late also weren't brought up when they were here, so that makes their vote null.

Sure, appeal to popularity, but one single person (you) disagreeing with this absolutely isn't grounds to dismiss. Especially when another staff sides with me to make this just as equal.
We only see this light when they take off, and when they land. Not anywhere in between where the speed would be highest.

This assumption only exists if you assume they have to accelerate for quite a period of time, which is unfounded and stacking another assumption here. It also doesn't make sense since if slowing was to begin before approaching the planet, the light streak would have dissipated before even getting into the atmosphere, which absolutely isn't depicted.

Unless there is proof that this light only appears when they travel at their full speed and gets dissipated when they get slower, this point holds no value.
See above. But to add more to it, the scene shows us that the light streak dissipates when near the ground at the end, showing it leaves when slowing.
 
See above. But to add more to it, the scene shows us that the light streak dissipates when near the ground at the end, showing it leaves when slowing.
Ignoring all the repeated points, it doesn't. The video clearly shows us that the light starts before they even start the journey, and it never dissipated before the journey ended. Which only means that the light is an aspect of the form of travel, not speed itself.
 
"It doesn't"

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These scans say otherwise. They clearly show the light streak dissipating, and all when they're near the ground for the landing.
 
That is it going out of view where there is a brief pause before they land and everything illuminates


literally what


...


what




....



what

you're literally grasping at straws here



I can't


...



again

what?


Moreover, as I said, they retain the light even when they start from a speed of 0, so this entire point is worthless


...


why am I even here

why am I discussing this
 
Isn't that just the contrail dissipating?
Nah. Because between the 3rd and 4th frames when slowing this down, the streak of light already vanishes before the contrail does. And then in the rest of the frames, the contrail then follows to dissipate as well.

If this were just from the form of travel, the entire light streak would have instantly vanished.
 
By the way, that isn't the main point I gave to go against slowdown either. It's a point LordGriffin brought up that I agree with it.

A stronger point from me for this is that they rushed to get to this location, which sets the precedent that they would be moving as fast as possible.
 
I wouldn't request it since whether they are in a hurry or not doesn't change the mechanics of travel much. They'd still need to slow down in order to stop. Nothing here suggests that they maneuvered much at MFTL+ speeds which is the required condition for scaling. This is just a generic spaceflight travel feat.

I'd like to ask you if you have any opinion on the wording (besides your point of contention):

"At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+ travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, superior to the speed of Ren's Units)"
 
I wouldn't request it since whether they are in a hurry or not doesn't change the mechanics of travel much. They'd still need to slow down in order to stop.
Yes, but the time of said slowing down makes or breaks this.

And being in a rush most certainly says they aren’t slowing until approaching the location.
 
I already discussed this with ProfessorKukui4Life and I still agree with MFTL+ scaling. I did not simply "blindly agree".

It's one thing if this was an off screen feat like another verse I'm currently downgrading, we'd be unable to tell the specifics. However, here we see the character fly straight down to the planet as the same streak of light he was when he took off and flew through space. We even see he still applying force from his speed since the clouds part when he passes and then smashing into the ground to gain all the characters attention. He showed no indication that he slowed down tremendously and I think evidence should be provided that he did slow his decent.
Still traveling at a decently high speed (Hypersonic or above) does not mean they are traveling quickly enough to cross the observable universe in 3 seconds. You can slow down an incredible extent from that and still be going fast enough to create a streak of light, part clouds, and create an explosion when smashing the ground.

fwiw I don't think you're "blindly agreeing", I think you're agreeing without knowing the new standards, which were discussed in-depth over multiple threads. See here for an explanation of why the burden of proof is on those who are saying there was no slowdown, not on those saying there was slowdown.

I will also again point out the hypocritical nature of using the explosion when smashing the ground as proof. The energy going into the environment implies the character didn't even slow down; it implies they crashed into the planet without reacting at all. Generally when characters go from flying fast to stopping in midair, they don't create a massive nuke around them.
 
I will also again point out the hypocritical nature of using the explosion when smashing the ground as proof. The energy going into the environment implies the character didn't even slow down; it implies they crashed into the planet without reacting at all. Generally when characters go from flying fast to stopping in midair, they don't create a massive nuke around them.
It isn’t hypocritical since evidence was given to prove they can control their movement to not go smack dab. Especially since seconds later they are shown upright and entirely fine.

I’ve also never heard of this “typically” happening. Force is still force, I don’t see why stopping mid air still wouldn’t cause force to be unleashed and cause nuking.
 
@LordGriffin1000 As Agnaa said, you should read these threads to get a proper understanding of how our standards are supposed to work. You are a sysop so you'll need to make judgment calls in future threads.

In case you have any doubts, feel free to ask questions on my message wall.

If there is no other meaningful input on the proposed changes, I will move ahead with the changes.

@Quangotjokes @ProfessorKukui4Life Can you list the profiles that need to be edited?
 
It is not. Your essentially arguing that even when the landing location isn't in view, they are still going to slow just because the planet was known for literally no reason or purpose. That doesn't make any sense.
A stronger point from me for this is that they rushed to get to this location, which sets the precedent that they would be moving as fast as possible.

You still have to address these points in order for the changes to happen. And you didn't.

The location on the planet was not known beforehand by these characters, simply knowing where the planet is doesn't grant that information. So what reason is there for them to begin slowing just by seeing the planet beforehand instead of when actually seeing the location to land at? You did not explain this.

And there's reason to be given for them being in a rush, which gives reason to NOT slow but move as fast as possible on top of that.
 
Also, just a heads up, but even if by any chance that this particular feat being discussed doesn't qualify in the end, there are other flight feats along with this one to be discussed as potential alternatives too to replace this one.

So this thread isn't going to be over either way for any changes until they are all addressed.
 
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Gonna turn in for now for bed, so I just want to reiterate before im hit with the "already addressed" stick.

The timing of when the slowdown happens is what the discussion is. Not if there's any slowdown at all. The "when" here is incredibly important to determine, because this determines whether or not there's reaction speed or a non-feat.

So my point in defense of the feat here isn't that slowdown wouldn't happen at all, but that the slowdown isn't going to be happening so early into the feat, like at a moon orbits distance or when approaching the planet.

The characters here have reason to be rushing to the location as said before, so they have reason to not slow down that early. And, because the location they're landing at can't be discerned until they actually see it for themselves, the slowdown at bare minimum should not be happening in this feat until they see the location.

In other words, slowdown should not be happening for them until after passing through what prevents them from seeing the location. The cloud layer.

image0.png


Once passing through the clouds is when slowdown should be plausible for them to do. Not before. I hope I am clear on what's being said.
 
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The location on the planet was not known beforehand by these characters, simply knowing where the planet is doesn't grant that information. So what reason is there for them to begin slowing just by seeing the planet beforehand instead of when actually seeing the location to land at? You did not explain this.
This is an irrelevant point. The location on the planet does not need to be known when it's known that the location is on the planet. That is enough for someone to prepare and make adjustments to their travel. I already addressed it.

And there's reason to be given for them being in a rush, which gives reason to NOT slow but move as fast as possible on top of that.
This just means they will delay making adjustments. It doesn't mean they will crash and destroy the planet. Even if I am in a rush to get something from my friend, I will not run and crash into him at full speed. I will make proper adjustments to stop beforehand. Being in a rush is not a criteria that makes it valid to scale travel speed to other forms or it would have been listed in our standards seeing how common the scenario is. Everybody in the world is in a rush to get somewhere, but they don't generally crash into their offices at full speed.

The timing of when the slowdown happens is what the discussion is. Not if there's any slowdown at all. The "when" here is incredibly important to determine, because this determines whether or not there's reaction speed or a non-feat.
The when cannot be decided accurately with the information at hand and it still doesn't matter. They can see the planet, and they were prepared to land on it. That's all that matters.

None of this would have been needed if you just understood the standards better.

even if by any chance that this particular feat being discussed doesn't qualify in the end, there are other flight feats along with this one to be discussed as potential alternatives too to replace this one.
It flat out does not. There are no two ways about it. So please bring those other feats now and stop stalling the thread with repeated arguments. Something like this should have been done in the beginning instead of arguing in circles, not 6 pages in.
 
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This is an irrelevant point. The location on the planet does not need to be known when it's known that the location is on the planet. That is enough for someone to prepare and make adjustments to their travel.
Going by your view here, the character sees the planet and then slows. Then what? They aren’t ready to land yet because their desired landing point hasn’t been found. So they will still move and dart around to find that location.

I need you to explain why you are going to slow down early if you aren't ready to land yet.

If they were just gonna go to any random place after seeing the planet, that is one thing. But a specific location means they still have to actively search to discern when to land.

This just means they will delay making adjustments.
Yes exactly. So your agreeing with what I’ve been trying to say here from the beginning that the adjusting wouldn’t happen early but be delayed.

They can see the planet, and they were prepared to land on it.
How can you prepare to stop at a place you can’t yet see to discern?

Again, this only fits under the idea that they were just aiming to land on any random spot after seeing the planet, but that isn’t the context with this.
So please bring those other feats now and stop stalling the thread with repeated arguments. Something like this should have been done in the beginning instead of arguing in circles, not 6 pages in.
Don’t know why your the only one who’s aiming to have this thread finished so quickly.

But no. I don’t have to bring forth the other feats yet when this one in particular right now should still be able to qualify. You are the only one in this thread who doesn’t agree, and for unjustified reasons.
 
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@Quangotjokes @ProfessorKukui4Life Can you list the profiles that need to be edited?
Sorry was busy, but these profiles.

 
But no. I don’t have to bring forth the other feats yet when this one in particular right now should still be able to qualify. You are the only one in this thread who doesn’t agree, and for unjustified reasons.
That isn't exactly true, you've been arguing something that's against the speed standards. Hence the circles.

Having travel speed be tiered separately is also more consistent considering they consistently struck by lightning and other projectiles.
 
That isn't exactly true, you've been arguing something that's against the speed standards. Hence the circles.
Im actually not though, my argument fits precisely within the standards. Slowing down before landing is only going to willingly happen when you spot the place your going to land at, so you can discern when to stop.

How are you able to discern when to stop when you haven't yet spotted the location? I keep asking this and all this is met with is "they saw the planet, thats enough".
Having travel speed be tiered separately is also more consistent considering they consistently struck by lightning and other projectiles.
They aren't, but this is a separate discussion im going to have as the priority right now is the feat itself.
 
Im actually not though, my argument fits precisely within the standards. Slowing down before landing is only going to willingly happen when you spot the place your going to land at, so you can discern when to stop.

How are you able to discern when to stop when you haven't yet spotted the location? I keep asking this and all this is met with is "they saw the planet, thats enough".
Personally I still believe it was unconscious. But at this point I'm just ready to come to a mutual agreement here so we can be done with this thread.
 
I addressed it, my wiki skills aren't the greatest on mobile is all.
It's fine, it happens.

Personally I still believe it was unconscious. But at this point I'm just ready to come to a mutual agreement here so we can be done with this thread.
As am I tbh. Im even open to using "Likely" or "Possibly" as alternatives.

But I just don't understand this idea that you will slow down when you don't know where your desired location is yet. This logic is saying someone can slow down without having all of the available information yet to determine when to slow down, which not even the current standards go by.
 
It's fine, it happens.


As am I tbh. Im even open to using "Likely" or "Possibly" as alternatives.

But I just don't understand this idea that you will slow down when you don't know where your desired location is yet. This logic is saying someone can slow down without having all of the available information yet to determine when to slow down, which not even the current standards go by.
Well cray is in another universe. So we don't really know the path taken. One could argue they just flew straight there with no obstacles.
 
Well cray is in another universe. So we don't really know the path taken. One could argue they just flew straight there with no obstacles.
I know that. The path to Cray isn't what im talking about here. Im talking about when they approach Cray.

Takuto and Ultra Rare were going to the location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other. Or more specifically, where Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark were. However, this location on Cray was covered by clouds, so it wouldn't have been able to be spotted when they approached Cray in space. And I don't know if you saw earlier, but I gave a scan to show trajectory would have happened.

Since this location couldn't be spotted from that far away, they would have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray to get to it. And since it couldn't be spotted in space, they did not yet have the available information to slow down that early. That's my point.
 
I know that. The path to Cray isn't what im talking about here. Im talking about when they approach Cray.

Takuto and Ultra Rare were going to the location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other. Or more specifically, where Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark were. However, this location on Cray was covered by clouds, so it wouldn't have been able to be spotted when they approached Cray in space. And I don't know if you saw earlier, but I gave a scan to show trajectory would have happened.

Since this location couldn't be spotted from that far away, they would have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray to get to it. And since it couldn't be spotted in space, they did not yet have the available information to slow down that early. That's my point.
Can you possibly explain the current counter-argument? This seems pretty reasonable.
 
You, since I'm not caught up lol.
Ahh okay, my bad. Was a little confused. Anywho.

The counter-argument against this is to claim they would have slowed down when approaching the planet in outer space since, apparently, seeing the planet would all be needed to slow down. Basically what the flight speed rule outlines as a possible factor against reactions.

However, this should not be applicable here in this case with what Takuto did. Because he and Ultra Ware were trying to find the specific location where the Royal and Shadow Paladins were battling each other, this is not a case of a typical "Oh I see the planet, I'll slow down and land just anywhere now" like in a typical traveling feat the rule talks about. They were trying to locate a specific location on Planet Cray. A location they couldn't see from outer space because it was covered by clouds. So when they approach Planet Cray in outer space, seeing Cray coming up wouldn't be enough information to go off to slow down, because their landing point couldn't be found from that far away.

They would, instead, have to change the trajectory they were on and dart around Cray trying to find that location for them to land at.

And thats why the counter argument makes no sense, because it's just assuming someone would slow down without yet having all of the available details to even think about slowing down. It's playing the feat off as "Takuto saw Cray, so he'll slow down and land anywhere". Which blatantly isn't the context. He has to travel around Cray to find the landing location, so logistically, he wouldn't think to slow down until that location is spotted.
 
Alright, I've been asked to comment here, so I'll try to give my opinion.
Though it should definitely be kept in mind that I have absolutely zero knowledge on the verse lol, so I'm just trying to navigate through the arguments presented here as best I could with my limited understanding. If I get something wrong, my apologies.

So from what I gathered, it seems that AKM is against reaction speed scaling to flight speed here because they supposedly had enough time to adjust and slow down before hitting the planet's surface. Meanwhile Kukui is arguing that because the characters were in a rush and could not see the surface or their desired landing positions before passing the cloud layer, then there's no reason to assume that they'd slow down before seeing where it is they wish to land. (If I misrepresented either of the arguments, then do let me know of course)

Uhhhhh, I think I'm leaning towards a compromise solution here tbh. Perhaps we should go for a Possibly or Likely rating in this case, because I kinda see the merits behind both arguments presented here.
Under normal circumstances, I think I would've completely agreed with Kukui, but the new speed standards really complicated things for a lot of verses. Unless there's some additional context that I'm missing here, I feel like both interpretations are somewhat plausible, which is why I'm really in favor of the compromise solution. I don't think that we can conclusively prove it one way or the other.

It's impossible to know for certain when they slowed down to prepare for landing, but since they were aiming for a specific landing position (correct me if I'm wrong), and their vision was obstructed until they passed through the cloud layer, then I'd say there's more than enough room for doubt to say that they may have slowed down really close to the planet's surface. And at such speeds, I'd imagine they'd have to somewhat scale to their flight speeds if that were the case, right?

Sooooooo yeah, probably not the most informed response, but it's the best I could manage after skimming through the arguments. I think a compromise solution might be best here.
 
Alright, I've been asked to comment here, so I'll try to give my opinion.
Though it should definitely be kept in mind that I have absolutely zero knowledge on the verse lol, so I'm just trying to navigate through the arguments presented here as best I could with my limited understanding. If I get something wrong, my apologies.

So from what I gathered, it seems that AKM is against reaction speed scaling to flight speed here because they supposedly had enough time to adjust and slow down before hitting the planet's surface. Meanwhile Kukui is arguing that because the characters were in a rush and could not see the surface or their desired landing positions before passing the cloud layer, then there's no reason to assume that they'd slow down before seeing where it is they wish to land. (If I misrepresented either of the arguments, then do let me know of course)

Uhhhhh, I think I'm leaning towards a compromise solution here tbh. Perhaps we should go for a Possibly or Likely rating in this case, because I kinda see the merits behind both arguments presented here.
Under normal circumstances, I think I would've completely agreed with Kukui, but the new speed standards really complicated things for a lot of verses. Unless there's some additional context that I'm missing here, I feel like both interpretations are somewhat plausible, which is why I'm really in favor of the compromise solution. I don't think that we can conclusively prove it one way or the other.

It's impossible to know for certain when they slowed down to prepare for landing, but since they were aiming for a specific landing position (correct me if I'm wrong), and their vision was obstructed until they passed through the cloud layer, then I'd say there's more than enough room for doubt to say that they may have slowed down really close to the planet's surface. And at such speeds, I'd imagine they'd have to somewhat scale to their flight speeds if that were the case, right?

Sooooooo yeah, probably not the most informed response, but it's the best I could manage after skimming through the arguments. I think a compromise solution might be best here.
I basically agree with this. If for anything, a possibly rating should be used as a simple compromise cause this thread isn't ending anytime soon.
 
Oh by the way, IDK if you saw me say this, but more flight feats besides the one being discussed that could also potentially help. One in particular I think could, even if not as explicit in details as the one currently being discussed.
Sure, if there are more scaleable flight speed feats, that might help a lot. If nothing else, it should at least make people lean more towards a "Likely" as opposed to a "Possibly" rating.
 
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