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Hello everyone!
The goal of this thread is to propose some major changes to, and/or explain, how the Top tiers of the Naruto-Verse should be scaled. In this thread specifically, there were two especially controvertial topics that came up in regards to Juubito scaling. Those were "Should Juubito actually scale to or above the Ten-Tails physically?" and "Should BSM Naruto and Senjutsu Susano'o EMS Sasuke scale to Juubito?". In this thread, I hope to put both issues to rest as well.
Juubito Scaling:
- Obito absorbed the Ten-Tails into himself when he became the Ten-Tail's Jinchūriki, including both its body mass and chakra.
- Upon gaining the transformation, Obito immediately broke Hashirama's Deity Gates and the Hokage's 4-Crimson Ray Formation Barrier, that previously withstood a TBB from the Juubi without much issue, with his chakra arms. In both instances, he was noted to have done something the Ten-Tails itself could not do, even with its TBB.
- Why should his physical strength scale to his chakra arms? Because there's absolutely no indication that their physical limbs, which are already coated in the same Bijū chakra, shouldn't be just as strong. In fact, we've been told that these Bijū chakra limbs are merely extensions of the user's limbs. The only time these chakra limbs have been shown to be stronger are when Kaguya used her Vacuum Fists and SPSM Naruto countered with his own giant chakra fists, but these are very different variations. Kaguya's Vacuum Fists is a special attack that is noted to be her most powerful offensive Jutsu, and even has elements of the Gentle Fist incorporated into it as well, but on a much higher scale, which empowers it even more. In Naruto's case, he'd already learned to conjure some of Kurama's limbs at will, such as Kurama's arms, head, and tails, which is explicitly different from the standard chakra arms he used in KCM and the ones Obito used. The giant limbs are more akin to partial tranformations, instead of the supplementary chakra arms, and as such it makes sense as to why they're more powerful.
- Additonally, in his altercation with BSM Naruto and BM Minato, Obito tried to block their combined Giant Rasengan using his Chakra limbs, but they were completely obliterated, yet his TSB shield held up and withstood the attack. And guess who was carrying that shield? Yes, Obito himself, with his regular limbs. If his limbs were weaker than the chakra arms, they would've shattered under the force that Naruto and Minato were applying. Even if you say this should only apply to the TSB's AP, I'll explain why Juubi Jins should somewhat scale to their TSBs anyway in the durability section later. I should also mention that I'm not necessarily advocating for Naruto and Minato to scale here, but rather pointing out the portrayal of his chakra arms.
- So in conclusion, not only is the notion that the chakra limbs are stronger than Obito's regular limbs unfounded headcanon, but it's also heavily contradicted by the source material. As such, Juubito should physically scale to the Juubi, if not higher, via his feats.
- As for the Deity Gates feat, the Deity Gates have many nuances that need to be taken into consideration. A) They can change their size and form to match the opponent they're meant to bind, so there's your explanation for why they were smaller against humanoid targets. B) The regular Gates that were used to bind the Juubi's body, limbs, and tails are normal binds that physically constricted his movements. C) The "Seal Head" is different from the aforementioned Gates, in that they pour Senjustu chakra into their target and literally seal away their will to resist the binding. This is important to note because Obito already has Resistance to Willpower Manipulation for resisting and breaking the seal, but this feat is still relevant because Obito didn't just shatter the Seal Head, but all of the Gates that Hashirama used to bind him, including the other Tori that restricted the Ten-Tails. This is notable because when he performed the feat, both Tobirama and Hiruzen treated it as a feat of strength when they noted "The Sage Art Seal that had even suppressed Ten-Tails" and "such power" respectively. This is a straightforward raw power feat, and not treating it as such is simply disingenuous.
- He was repeatedly stated to have the Ten-Tails' power under his control in a more focused form. He was stated verbatim to have the same power as the Ten-Tails, if not more, but just in a more focused form, which is precisely the purpose of Jinchūriki in the first place. They actively control and focus the power of a Tailed-Beast, so while they're not "stronger" per say, they are able to bring out a Bijū's full potential, which is what Gyūki was talking about here.
- He can use the Ten-Tails' TBBs, up to 4 at a time, and he can also charge them.
- All of the feats and statements above were mostly about Uncontrolled Juubito, who had little control over his thoughts or body, and was actively fighting the Juubi for control. Once he took full control, he obviously became much stronger and had perfect control over the Ten-Tails' power.
- Since I've already established that his striking strength is easily on par with the Ten-Tails itself, then it stands to reason that his durability would as well. Why, you ask? Oh, I don't know, physics? Newton's 3rd law? Any of that ring a bell? The fact that I have to argue or even mention such basics is honestly kind of embarrassing, yet here we are.......Numerous characters on the wiki are scaled this way, and I personally see nothing wrong with it, since it's perfectly logical. If characters' durability were much lower than their striking strength, they would literally hurt themselves simply by throwing punches.
- Additionally, it should be mentioned that Ten-Tails Jins are physically comparable to their own TSBs. This is explicitly shown when 8 Gates Gai attacks Madara with his Sekizo. The attack sends Madara flying through his own TSB shield, shattering it in the process, but he remains relatively unharmed (Yes, the attack hurt him a bit, but he clearly withstood it as Gai even points out). The exact same sequence of events also took place when BSM Naruto sent TCM Toneri flying through his TSB shield during their fight, so this concept is clearly consistent.
- This is relevant because, as I said above, this scales them at the very least to their chakra limbs physically. It's also relevant for their durability, since it clearly scales as well. These TSB shields have also been explicitly shown to tank multiple charged TBBs exploding simultaneously. (up to 4 at once)
- Obito can also create a barrier using his chakra (since we know these Crimson Ray Formation barriers are created and maintained using the user's chakra). This barrier also withstood the 4 TBBs exploding simultaneously.
BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke Scaling:
In this section, I hope to resolve the ever-present scaling conundrum of BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (With Kyubi and Senjutsu enhancements) scaling to Juubito. Without further adieu, here we go.- I'll begin by highlighting the most prevalent and apparent ideas that support this notion:
- Sage Mode Naruto's Rasengan was capable of affecting, and clearly harming, Juubito. If this were a purely AP related exhange, it'd be impossible to deny the obvious inconsistency since Sage Mode Naruto has absolutely no business being even in the same realm of power as Juubito. Base Rinnegan Obito was casually manhandling KCM Naruto, and withstanding his Rasengans, even when caught off-guard. So a weaker form like Sage Mode has no logical reason to be capable of even scratching Obito after he absorbed the Ten-Tails. This is simply undeniable. The argument of him being caught off-guard does not work either, since being caught off-guard should not lower his durability by literally thousands of times. In addition, as stated above, a weaker form of Obito was already caught off-guard by stronger forms of Naruto, TWICE, and didn't suffer nearly as much damage. Another example of this is when Minato, another extremely intelligent character with experience against Juubi Jins, thought he could actually affect Madara with his Sage Enhanced Rasengan, and Gaara echoed that same sentiment. This is the same situation as with Naruto, especially because Biju Mode Minato was already proven to be weaker than Juubito, and we know his Biju Mode is superior to his Sage Mode in terms of raw power.
- So why is this not simply a minor inconsistency or PIS moment? Well, that's because the story makes a point out of explaining exactly why this occurred, as it was an extremely important plot development when the protagonists discovered the invincible Ten-Tails' host's weakness. Yes, weakness:
- Senjutsu works against Obito
- It is directly stated to be a weakness here, by none other than Obito himself.
- Naruto explains that he was able to affect and harm Obito purely because of the Nature Energy interaction.
- A minor point, but Tobirama claims that NOTHING will work other than Senjutsu. Now, I know that physical strength can also technically affect the Juubi Jins; however, if that were a feasible strategy, I'm certain that someone of Tobirama's intelligence would have mentioned it.
- Now, surely if the numerous feats lead to them scaling then we can't just ignore it, right? That is correct; however, I also think that many of their "feats" are highly questionable and dubious in nature. Let's go through them:
- Firstly, BSM Naruto and BM Minato attack Obito with a combined Chou Odama Rasengan, powered by both of them + Senjustu. They destroy his chakra arms, and he then blocks their assault with a TSB shield. They clash, and then are sent flying in the other direction, but not before slightly cracking the TSB shield. This feat doesn't really work because it's illogical for Obito's chakra arms to get ran through like butter, but then for his TSB shield to hold up that well against their assault. The TSB shield is slightly more durable, yes, but as I've proven in the previous scaling section, the difference really is negligible, and Obito scales somewhat to his TSBs and chakra arms physically. The more likely explanation, in my opinion, is that Obito simply underestimated their initial assault, and didn't put as much power into his initial defense with the chakra arms, which is why they got destroyed, but the TSB shield did not. Either that, or the chakra arms are just impossibly inferior to Obito's physical strength, which doesn't really make much sense, and still wouldn't result in Naruto and Minato scaling anyway. As we go along, it should become abundantly clear that Obito truly was holding back here.
- This part will hopefully put the nail in the coffin, as I'll attempt to showcase why Naruto and Sasuke's feats are also highly questionable:
- Throughout this entire portion of the fight, it has been made abundantly clear that Obito's main objective in this clash was to break Naruto's, and everyone else's, resolve and reaffirm his own; as he was beginning to show clear doubts. Kakashi even mentions that Obito has realized there's a chance he may have been wrong, causing his own resolve and conviction to begin to waver. So in an attempt to reaffirm his beliefs and regain confidence in his plan, he kept pushing Naruto, over and over again, in order to reaffirm that with enough death, betrayal, and hatred, anyone can break and despair as he once did. In short, he was never even trying to kill Naruto. Instead he wanted to break him mentally in order to confirm his own beliefs. This fact alone puts every feat into question, but it doesn't stop there. As Naruto kept getting back up, refusing to give up, and even inspiring everyone else to bet everything on him, Obito's mental state and resolve began to break which highly compromised him.
- To further prove that Naruto and Sasuke shouldn't scale, here they both attack Obito's shield, but they don't do any damage beyond a few small chunks flying off of it. They didn't even manage to send Obito back, even though he was suspended in mid-air.
- Here they both attack him with with their TBB and Susano'o arrow respectively, but once again to no avail. They once again only managed to do minor damage to his shield.
- Here he causally blocks their attacks, and then proceeds to grab them and throw them aside, which sends them flying and destroys their Kurama Avatar and Susano'o respectively. This clearly shows that he was just playing around previously, given the casual nature with which he overpowered them.
- After this, Sasuke unlocks his Perfect Susano'o, and creates a Majestic Attire with Susano'o with Naruto. It's a minor point, but the Majestic Attire is far above the sum of its parts, as we've seen previously with Madara. By combining his Susano'o with the Kyubi, he was able to somewhat contend with Sage Mode Hashirama's strongest technique, and we know that Sage Mode is certainly far above a mere 2x increase. This means that Naruto and Sasuke at this point likely far surpass their individual strength by a large margin, so even if they had any grounds for scaling from this point forward, it would simply not scale to their individual power at all.
- In any case, they definitely do not scale from this point forward because this was truly the end for Obito. Once he pulled out his Sword of Nonuboku, a blade that represents his soul and emotions, he was going in a full-blown ideological clash with Naruto, in a literal sense. His shield was literally broken by the Kyuubi-enhanced Konoha 11 (Do I really need to point out the issue with this?), and then once Naruto's chakra made contact with his sword, he was already defeated. He started seeing actual visions of his doubts, broken dreams, and false hopes. His own self doubt materialized in the form of "What could have been?". Once his resolve completely broke, the sword broke, and the Bijuu were almost pulled out of him in one fell swoop. Everything that happens after this point is literally just Naruto doing what he does best and Talk no Justu'ing his way to the victory over the already mentally broken Obito, so it clearly has no bearing on scaling.
In conclusion, I believe I have illustrated that Naruto and Sasuke should not scale to Juubito reliably due to:
A) Senjustu being blatantly treated as weakness, and MUCH weaker characters being able to harm Juubi Jins simply thanks to Senjutsu.
B) The unreliable and dubious nature of the feats performed against Juubito.
How The Top Tiers Will Scale:
PS has a 991 Gigatons feat calc that should replace their current High 6-A. Madara also makes a statement about his PS being comparable to the Bijuu. I believe he is referring to the power of Kurama due to him having fought with him in the past.
Hashirama's base Mokuton should be High 6-C+ as well for being comparable to Madara's PS and Prime Kurama, with his SM Mokuton being 10x that value, which would put it at 6-B (9.91 Teratons). This would also scale to Madara's Majestic Attire: Susano'o for being able to contend with and destroy Hashirama's Shinsu Senju's arms with its Evil Disturbance Waltz. It's durability also scales for being able to take hundreds of hits from the Shinsu Senju before its armor is chipped and cracked.
- This statement is also heavily supported by feats and scaling:
- Hashirama's Wood Dragon is capable of restraining full power Kurama.
- His Wood Golem is comparable to Kurama, and can easily catch its Bijū Bomb, which had previously shattered his Wood Dragon.
- The Wood Golem was also able to contend with Madara's Perfect Susano'o when Hashirama was weaker as an Edo Tensei. His high level Mokuton can also catch Madara's Perfect Susano'o blade, and is generally relative to it.
- Madara's Perfect Susano'o and Hashirama's Wood Golem are capable of withstanding Kurama's TBB without any damage. (Hashirama abandoned the full body of the Golem and hid inside its head in order to avoid getting damaged himself, since he's normally exposed outside when standing atop the Golem's head)
Hashirama's base Mokuton should be High 6-C+ as well for being comparable to Madara's PS and Prime Kurama, with his SM Mokuton being 10x that value, which would put it at 6-B (9.91 Teratons). This would also scale to Madara's Majestic Attire: Susano'o for being able to contend with and destroy Hashirama's Shinsu Senju's arms with its Evil Disturbance Waltz. It's durability also scales for being able to take hundreds of hits from the Shinsu Senju before its armor is chipped and cracked.
Since the 10x SM multiplier has been accepted here, BSM Naruto will scale to 10x his BM self which is 495.5 Gigatons, which will make him 4.9 Teratons (Small Country+) for AP and since his durability scales to 21 Teratons from this feat, his durability will be 210 Teratons (High 6-B).
Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o and Perfect Susano'o respectively should be on par with Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto for being able to keep up with him, and having equal portrayal. If for whatever reason this is not accepted for Sasuke, then he can just be rated as 10x his EMS Susano'o due to Juugo's Curse Mark amp.
Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o and Perfect Susano'o respectively should be on par with Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto for being able to keep up with him, and having equal portrayal. If for whatever reason this is not accepted for Sasuke, then he can just be rated as 10x his EMS Susano'o due to Juugo's Curse Mark amp.
If I missed anything in the OP, feel free to bring it up in the comments so we can discuss it.
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