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So what's left?
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Captain Juubito: Civil War (+Top tiers scaling stuff)
- Thread starter UchihaSlayer96
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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- #83
I guess if none of the people who were opposing the OP have anything left to say, we can just get this accepted and close the thread?
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Yes.
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- #85
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Is there anything left to be applied?
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- #87
I'm not sure if we should apply the changes now, or wait to do so during the AP revisions. I'm fine with either option.
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- #88
Okay, I think it's time to wrap this up. If nobody has any more issues to bring up, I'd like to get this applied and closed.
Juubito's ratings remain unchanged, but we'll have to significantly improve his justification. I'll finalize the justifications for the Top tiers later, and post them on M3X's other thread that's made for this purpose.
Hashirama's strongest Mokuton, Madara's Perfect Susano'o, and 100% Kurama would be High 6-C+, SM Hashirama's Mokuton would be 10x that at 6-B
BSM Naruto and CS Susano'o would be 10x BM Naruto.
That's about it I think.
Juubito's ratings remain unchanged, but we'll have to significantly improve his justification. I'll finalize the justifications for the Top tiers later, and post them on M3X's other thread that's made for this purpose.
Hashirama's strongest Mokuton, Madara's Perfect Susano'o, and 100% Kurama would be High 6-C+, SM Hashirama's Mokuton would be 10x that at 6-B
BSM Naruto and CS Susano'o would be 10x BM Naruto.
That's about it I think.
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Question why PS is only High 6C+? Edo Madara fought Edo SM Hashi which means SM Mokuton aka 6B. Also Majestic Attire is Kurama warped in PS... PS was destroyed by Hashi's strongest tech. Isn't it strange for both High 6C+ to be together 6B when Kurama doesn't merger its chakra with Susanoo. I mean its just ap1 + ap2 =6B. Correct?
Edo Tobirama said that the Hokage were brought pretty close to their full power back. Also CS Susanoo can not be > Madara's PS. Sasuke didn't surpass Madara in that case.
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- #90
I'm personally neutral on Madara scaling to SM Hashirama. He technically has some feats that could put him there, like his PS withstanding a lot of attacks from the Shinsu Senju, and fighting Sage Mode Edo Hashirama's Golem like you said. I think a good case can be made for him potentially having 6-B durability at least.
Well, close is a relative term. They were definitely close compared to the first time they were reanimated, but Madara still implied they weren't as strong as they were when they were alive.
It's technically not Sasuke's own power really, he had a Kyubi amp from Naruto in addition to his CS amp from Juugo, so he was far above his regular power level.
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Edo Madara should defenitely be up with Edo SM Hashi. If he wasn't Hashirama would end their battle when wanted to stop Juubito but Edo Madara didn't let him. I believe a Likely 6B would be ok.
True but it doesn't seem even with that he would be above Madara or Hashirama. It doesn't go well with the story. Oro said that Sasuke will one day surpass Madara...
Agreed but he said really close and SM is 10x amp at least.
What I propuse is Likely 6B for Alive Madara (implied to be stronger than Edo) and 6B for Edo Madara because of vs with Edo Hashi.
Also come to think of it. The Hashi vs Madara battle seemed High 6C+ with the Kurama. Hashirama has more stamina than Madara. Complete Susanoo withstood Kurama's Bijuu Dama like nothing and is weaker than Perfect. (Perfect Susanoo is more powerful than the Complete body Susanoo)
Seems to me like this:
- Complete Susanoo and Wood Human => High 6+
- PS and SM Wood Human => 6B.
Normal Wood Human jutsu was said to rival Kurama in the databook. Doesn't this go better with the scaling?
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- #92
That's true, he couldn't really power his way through Madara.
Well, I don't see an issue with it since they are just temporary power ups, and not really his own power.
The problem is that High 6-C+ comes from the Perfect Susano'o itself via a calc, so we can't scale it to both High 6-C+ AND 6-B, though I think 6-B durability wouldn't cause any issues.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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This thread is still going?
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Yeah but it still bothers me.
Agreed. It means that they are relative in power.
It was really casual if you ask me. It doesn't make sense to have that much of diffrence in ap. Also SM Hashirama remained after he put Kurama back into sleep in their fight. After this we don't know how the fight continued but Hashi won with extreme diff when Madara didn't have even regular Sharingan active.
If PS is the majority of the power of Majestic Attire (6Β) then I also don't see a problem with the scaling. It makes more sense to have the fire power to go against Hashirama and not just the Durability.
Kurama = Wood Human < PS = SM Wood Human < Majestic Attire (PS + High 6C+ Kurama) < Shinsuusenju.
Scale regular Mokuton to Kurama (regular Wood Human jutsu scales to Kurama according to Databook) and SM Mokuton to PS. Then you cover also the Edo scenario.
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This is problematic in and of itself because we've seen Hashirama and Madara clash equally numerous times in base. This would either mean that Madara was holding back in those clashes for whatever reason, or that Sage Mode offers Hashirama no power boost. Both options don't really make much sense, but scaling Madara to both base and SM Hashirama also makes no sense.
I think that it's best to ignore the SM scaling for Madara because it creates a lot of logical inconsistencies imo. Besides, we've never even seen them swap hands while Hashirama was in SM. Literally never happened.
Well, Madara isn't really as strong as Hashirama. He never won against him before, and only came as close as he did in the final battle thanks to the added firepower of the Kyubi. They were never really dead equal or anything, but they were in a similar ballpark obviously.
Okay, here's the big issue....
The 6-B rating literally comes from scaling Hashirama's Wood Golem to the Perfect Susano'o, via scaling both to Prime Kurama, and then multiplying that by 10x via Sage Mode.
Basically, if the Perfect Susano'o doesn't scale to the High 6-C+ calc, the 6-B rating wouldn't even exist. See the issue here? Honestly, the Madara/Hashirama scaling is extremely inconsistent. I tried my best to work around those inconsistencies in my proposal.
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Ok but dopesn't Kurama have High 6C calcs that we can use? I confused you with what I wrote above let me be more specific.
I meant:
Kurama Rating = Regular Mokuton/Wodd Human < Kurama rating x10 = PS = SM Wood Human
Also can we use BM Naruto for Full Kurama ap then scale that ap to both PS and SM Wood Human?
Just scale SM Mokuton to only PS and then its ok.
Hashirama as a Senju has more Stamina and can be stronger but not by a long margin. Edo Hashirama vs Edo Madara fight can not be ignored though...
Also Hashirama said it was bad when Madara as alive was regainning his past strenght which could mean that he believed him to be above BSM Naruto whom had seen his power.
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Okay, so I may have found a way to avoid these inconsistencies, but it would require a bit of compromising.
We could abandon the idea of base Hashirama's Mokuton and Prime Kurama scaling to the Perfect Susano'o, and instead scale them directly to 2x above BM Naruto. The Perfect Susano'o would just scale to its own feat for the time being. Let's see how this would look.
Bijū Mode Naruto is currently High 6-C (130 Gigatons; via being able to match the 26 GT Bijū bombs x5).
Hashirama and Kurama would be 2x that at 260 GT.
Then Sage Mode Hashirama would be 10x that value, at Low 6-B (2.6 Teratons).
The Perfect Susano'o would sit at High 6-C+ (Via his calc at 991 GT), with potentially Low 6-B durability.
This scaling would potentially serve multiple purposes:
A) It would not invalidate Madara's High 6-C+ calc OR his partial scaling to SM Hashirama, as he would be relatively close to SM Hashirama already.
The Majestic Attire would simply be Low 6-B (1.25 Teratons), which makes perfect sense because it was still somewhat below Hashirama's Shinsu Senju.
B) It would avoid all the logical inconsistencies I mentioned above.
What do you guys think?
We could abandon the idea of base Hashirama's Mokuton and Prime Kurama scaling to the Perfect Susano'o, and instead scale them directly to 2x above BM Naruto. The Perfect Susano'o would just scale to its own feat for the time being. Let's see how this would look.
Bijū Mode Naruto is currently High 6-C (130 Gigatons; via being able to match the 26 GT Bijū bombs x5).
Hashirama and Kurama would be 2x that at 260 GT.
Then Sage Mode Hashirama would be 10x that value, at Low 6-B (2.6 Teratons).
The Perfect Susano'o would sit at High 6-C+ (Via his calc at 991 GT), with potentially Low 6-B durability.
This scaling would potentially serve multiple purposes:
A) It would not invalidate Madara's High 6-C+ calc OR his partial scaling to SM Hashirama, as he would be relatively close to SM Hashirama already.
The Majestic Attire would simply be Low 6-B (1.25 Teratons), which makes perfect sense because it was still somewhat below Hashirama's Shinsu Senju.
B) It would avoid all the logical inconsistencies I mentioned above.
What do you guys think?
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This is pretty close to the idea I just proposed lol. I'm sorry that misunderstood you earlier. I think we might be onto something here.
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Yes indeed. I would like to ask if we have more BM Naruto or even full Kurama calcs that we could use here?
Found that M3X has a High 6C calc for Madara's regular Susanoo Durability.
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We do not. He only has his Low 6-B calc for his charged Bijū bomb with Killer B, but it doesn't scale to his stats.
Edit: There's a calc for 100% Kurama's TBB, but it's only 6-C+.
It hasn't been evaluated yet unfortunately.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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We may be onto something here. Minor Problem is still Edo Rinnegan Madara being on par with Edo Sage Mode Hashirama and then Alive Madara with no eyes being stated as regaining his previous strength after he just got revived.
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Edo Madara never swapped hands with Edo Sage Hashirama as far as I remember, so only his Susano'o would scale in this case.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Wait, you don't remember that scene were it cuts back to them Clashing and knocking each other back?
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That wasn't Sage Hashirama, was it?
Also, how could Edo Madara be fighting evenly with Edo Hashirama if Edo Madara is 10x stronger than Hashirama?
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I remember them clashing, yeah, but it was base Hashirama.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm pretty damn sure it was Edo Sage Mode Hashirama.
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IIRC that was Base Edo Hashirama clashing weapons with Edo Madara (Also the part where Madara talks about the Shinju and Kaguya)
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That's what I remember too.
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Anyway, the issue with Madara scaling to Sage Hashirama is that it would result in circular scaling.
Base Hashirama = Madara = Sage Hashirama
It's just illogical, and would end up having base Hashirama with an Unknown rating or something.
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From reading fight again, it seems Alive SM Hashirama, after suppressing Kurama, confronted Madara who responded by activating his EMS.
Then after, Madara is shown relatively unharmed and just without his armor whereas Hashirama's entire left arm is injured with him losing the left pauldron and a part of his torso plate.
It could be possible that Madara made liberal use of Skeletal and Humanoid variants of Susanoo similar to what Itachi and Sasuke did against SM Kabuto.
Then after, Madara is shown relatively unharmed and just without his armor whereas Hashirama's entire left arm is injured with him losing the left pauldron and a part of his torso plate.
It could be possible that Madara made liberal use of Skeletal and Humanoid variants of Susanoo similar to what Itachi and Sasuke did against SM Kabuto.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm sorry, but it's still a fact that EMS Madara fought Sage Mode Hashirama to the point of it basically being a Draw until Hashirama had to actively trick him with a Clone to get the W.
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It was off-screen. For all we know he could've utilized the Susano'o or some of his other Jutsu to combat Hashirama until Sage Mode's time limit kicked in.
We can't ignore the scaling inconsistencies it creates when we've never even seen how the fight went.
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- #117
Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking.
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The thing is though that Edo Madara vs Edo SM Hashirama as PS vs SM Wood Human were on par and didn't PS damage SM wood Humann too?!
Also since according to Hashi Alive EMS Madara > Edo Madara shouldn't PS also be stronger than High 6C+? Isn't Edo PS feat close to low 6B? So shouldn't alive be low 6B according to that since its pretty close?
Question.. Wasn't another thread that had Onoki upgrade in 6C because he was going to destroy Turtle island?
Also since according to Hashi Alive EMS Madara > Edo Madara shouldn't PS also be stronger than High 6C+? Isn't Edo PS feat close to low 6B? So shouldn't alive be low 6B according to that since its pretty close?
Question.. Wasn't another thread that had Onoki upgrade in 6C because he was going to destroy Turtle island?
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Onoki destroying Turtle Island with Dura Neg Matter Manip Hax being 6-C AP?
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Was Edo Tensei stated to weaken a person's Jutsu and Dojutsu abilities? I was under the impression that Edo Tensei just affected the reanimated's natural Physical Condition (Striking Strength, Lifting Strength, Speed, Durability, etc.) and doesn't affect Jutsu and Dojutsu abilities because of them being just Chakra Output + Chakra Control.
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