Captain Juubito: Civil War (+Top tiers scaling stuff)

[Slacjow]

Because they weren't fighting the Juubi directly at that moment. They were containing it.

They created a barrier to contain it, saw it charge a BB and sent it at the barrier. Then Hashi stomped it with Deity Gates, this counts as a fight.
They had seen enough to make a conclusion, nobody anything about Juubi's powers.
Hashi looked casual, unconcerned.

Even though he had zero direct interactions with the Juubi? The only action he took when the Juubi itself was active was to help set up the barrier with the other three Hokage, and to pin it in place with a willpower-controlling seal.

You said he had zero interactions with Juubi and mention two of them yourself.

Let's not divert from the main point, Deity Gates still scale to his Sage Mode, Shinsuusenju makes him breath heavily, and he is very serious when using it, unlike Gates that pinned Juubi and took BBs.

The Barrier that was created by Kage is a feat of strength, stated that only characters of Kage Caliber can use such barrier, it was also stated that Hashirama was the reason the barrier was so indestructibe, it tanked two massive charged BBs.

Seriously I don't see the reason not to scale SM Hashi and Madara to Juubi, considering all the points so far.

 

[KingTempest]

Isn't Hashirama's Shinsuusenju = Kurama + Madara..?

So Kurama + Madara = Juubi now?

@Slacjow Deity Gates is a sealing jutsu. We don't scale sealing jutsus to people, unless all those fodder in the war ~ everyone they sealed. We don't even scale putting your weight on people. That's like scaling Gamabunta to Kurama for jumping on him.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No, like how we scale a random X element jutsu of a certain character to another random Y element jutsu of the same character.
An example, Sasuke has the same AP for all his Ninjutsu, be it Katon, or Raiton. JJ's have the same AP for all of their jutsus.

Well, this isn't a universal rule by any means. To use your Sasuke example, we know that his regular Chidori is stronger than his Chidori blade, and that Kirin is his strongest Raiton Jutsu by far. Are we supposed to scale all of those Jutsu as equal purely because they're all Raiton based? I would like to take these things on a case by case basis.

Ok, then we will have to assign different tier to all Sage Art techniques and other techniques of characters.

As long as said Sage Art techniques have no reason to scale to the character's physicals or their other Jutsu, then I think this suggestion is quite good even if you only said it sarcastically.

You didn't bring anything new to the table to debunk my statement. It being called a "Sealing Jutsu" doesn't help you in the slightest, it's a restraining jutsu that has a physical form, durability and AP and it tanked Juubi's BB just fine.

I never said it didn't have a physical form, AP, or Durability. I'm asking why should it scale to his Mokuton? You have yet to provide me with a reason to scale one to the other.
Again, I think the Gates should get their own rating on his profile for AP and Durability, but I don't see why they scale to his Mokuton.

This still stands:

It really doesn't, because I literally did not say they're exactly the same in form or application. All I did was set a precedence for Sealing Jutsu not scaling to the characters who perform them, for various reasons, which is indeed the case. Kushina and Minato don't scale to Kurama via those Jutsu, and I don't see why Hashirama's Mokuton should scale to his.

I dunno, he seem to put more effort in fighting Madara than restraining Juubi. And he was breathing heavily after Shinsuusenju while he was casual with Deity Gates.
He didn't use regular wood because Deity Gates reduces the will of opponents after restraining them physically. It's a Sealing Jutsu for a reason.

To me that only further implies that it shouldn't scale to his Mokuton. You really think the Juubi is so fodder compared to Madara and Kurama to the point of him not showing more effort against it being a supporting point? The lack of effort implies that it's not a technique directly powered by Hashirama, with the exception of pouring Senjutsu chakra into the Seal Head which is what's responsible for the "sealing of the will to oppose". The actual physical power and durability of the Gates is impossible to connect to his Mokuton. This is why my proposal is that he gets different AP for Mokuton and the Deity Gates.

If you don't agree with Shinsuusenju scaling above Deity Gates, fine, but you'll still have to scale them to being comparable to the Gates.

No, I don't. Why would I come to that conclusion? Him not showing effort thanks to using a sealing justu? That doesn't seem like nearly good enough of a reason to scale the PS and Kurama to literally thousands of times higher than their best shown feats in the series (6-C+ to Low 6-B ranges vs 6-A+) via scaling to Hashirama's Gates here.

It's not akin to summoning jutsu, it's literally a jutsu that's manifested in the sky to pin down an enemy with the force when it falls.
It doesn't need to be confirmed, all non Summoning Jutsus are created, you have to prove it's Summoned.

I mean, I already said I don't literally think it's a summoning Jutsu, but the description you just gave sure sound a hell of a lot like a Summoning Jutsu.

And you brought in Reaper Seal as proof which is false equivalency. Sealing Techniques =/= Restraining Techniques that have physical form and durability along with AP.
It's just so happens that any binding technique in Naruto is called Sealing Technique.

Sure, that's true, but I still don't see how this proves that the Gates scale to his Mokuton in SM. All you did here was prove that there are different categories within Fuinjutsu, which is true.

Madara's Susanoo Swords did that, and it was 100% Kurama.

So? That would still make the PS and Kurama > Juubi, and 1000s of times above their best showcased feats. Sounds iffy to me, to say the least.

I made an explanation for this.
Hashirama in SM would scale to Juubi, just like Edo Madara, Sage Mode Madara will scale above his Edo Self. And we have Hashirama stating that SM Madara after revival only began regaining his true power as in the past.

The Madara scaling is fine, but them scaling to the Juubi is not as I've stated above.

Again, your argument stands on "Prove Deity Gates scale to other Sage Art Techniques" which is tbh nonsense, we can as well do the whole Narutoverse overhaul and separate all techniques.

Well, you haven't proven it, so that's a moot point. Also, it's funny that you said that since we ARE in the middle of a Naruto-verse overhaul.....

And this scene already proves it, Shinsuusenju makes him breath heavily.

Yeah, it proves that he went all out against Madara, his equal, which makes sense. I still don't see why his Gates scale below this, though.

You can't ignore Madara's statement about weakening Juubito

I already explained in the OP why this is useless, as it's exactly what Naruto and Minato did/thought they could do in base SM. Exploiting a weakness doesn't mean you scale.

or throw away the fact that Hashirama wasn't even concerned about Juubi while he admitted that Juubito is stronger than himself, the only time he rated someone higher than himself in power.

He wasn't concerned about the Juubi because it was already restrained, while Juubito was an active threat that could not be contained. Also this statement was clearly just meant to hype Juubito. Are we supposed to scale anyone that didn't show concern over a character above them automatically? That doesn't make sense to me.

Or how the barrier Kage's created was strong enough to withstand multiple BBs from Juubi, while Hashi being stronger than all other Kage's combined.

So should Obito scale to his barrier that stopped Gyuki's assault and burned him? I'm fine with the concept, but we have to apply it consistently.

He has enough proof of scaling to Juubi.

I'd say he doesn't, necessarily.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Seriously disagree with OP's stance on BSM Naruto and CM Susanoo.

For starters, saying that the Chakra Arms and TSB are somewhat relative to each other thus BSM Naruto's feats against them should be discounted is nonsensical imo. The entire argument is an appeal to incredulity.

You're clearly mixed up here. I said they're at least relative to each other in an attempt to prove that Juubito's striking strength is comparable to AP/durability/etc. I am well aware that the TSB is superior to the chakra arms, and that Juubito is superior to both physically, but at the end of the day we don't know the exact value, or how much superior he is. As a result, all 3 scale to the exact same tier, which is 6-A+ atm.

We're talking about a New Form's only feats which are highly consistent. Juubito showed dominance against BSM Naruto and Sasuke physically when he slammed both of them out of their Forms when irritated. We know that all Top/God Tiers are physically stronger than their TSB (With the Exception of Maybe Kaguya with ETSB) via Madara/Toneri.

I agree with all of this.

The premise of Top Tiers Scaling to Juubito is false. They don't. They scale from the TSB which Juubito and all persons with Six Paths Chakra who produced them are shown to be phsically superior to.

The problem here is that when he slammed them, and effortlessly destroyed their forms, it was still done by his arm-shaped TSBs, not by Juubito himslef. So how can they logically scale to the TSB, but also far below it simultaneously?

There is 0 evidence showing how much the Juubi Jins scale over their technique here. There is an unquantifiable Gap so saying BSM Naruto and CSM Susanoo wouldn't scale is essentially saying:

"We don't scale them because they logically shouldn't be near Juubito who is unquantifiable superior to the TSB that they consistently damaged/destroyed."

No, they shouldn't scale because you can't simultaneously be comparable to and far inferior to something.

That is nonsense. BM Minato Scales to BM Naruto who is already established. Thus we know the majority of the AP for their attack is supplied by BSM Naruto. BSM Naruto and CSM Susanoo they partially Shatter TSB and we know CSM Susanoo is relative to BSM due to equally having Sasuke/Juugo survive the Slam from Juubito.

Just because Character A demolished both B and C, doesn't necessarily mean that B= C. They didn't tank anything here, as both of their chakra avatars were completely destroyed by the same attack, but that doesn't necessarily confirm that they're equal in this particular instance.
Anyway, I'm not really against Sasuke scaling to Naruto here, I just don't think this particular instance should be the justification.

Thirdly we have BSM Naruto via his own power shatter the TSB completely BEFORE Obito waivers.

When did this ever happen? If you mean the final clash with the Sword of Nonuboku, then I have already proven why he'd already wavered and completely lost mentally by that point.

Majestic Attire Susanoo doesn't amplify the chakra of Kurama or BM Naruto or Sasuke. The DB clearly outlines that is just a Suit of Armor and thus acts a Suit of Armor does for normal person. The Physical AP of Kurama and Susanoo are combined, not multiplied. The increases gained are logical and purely physical so Naruto Shattering the TSB via his own power can't be attributed to MA. That is baseless and there are no antifeats here.

Okay, so let's say BSM Naruto scales to 6-A here, hypothetically. This means that Sage Mode is enough of a boost to take him from High 6-C/Low 6-B all the way to 6-A+.
Now we have Madara's MA being somewhat relative to SM Hashi's strongest technique, so going by your premise here that would mean that Madara's PS and Kurama are laughably stronger than base Hashirama's Mokuton, when we know that is definitely not the case as I've proven in the OP (Kurama is comparable to Base Hashi's Wood Golem, and his Mokuton is capable of tanking a TBB from Kurama. We also know that Kurama is comparable to the PS, so arguing that it's somehow thousands of times stronger than both Kurama and Hashi's Mokuton doesn't really work either).

So this interpretation just does not work, logically. The MA cannot just be A+B if we consider SM to be a big enough boost to take you from High 6-C to 6-A.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Remember, their actual limbs are also coated in this exact same Bijuu chakra, so the chakra limbs are simply extensions of those limbs in those forms. I never said they're extensions of their regular limbs in their base forms, by example.
At the end of the day, these limbs have only ever been used for extra maneuverability, supplementary tools for attack or defense, or utility limbs. They've never been shown or stated to be stronger than their physical limbs except for the few examples I covered in the OP.

The issue with your logic here is that it goes against what the Manga asserts.

Yes, the Juubi-Jins are cloaked in Juubi's Chakra but Kishimoto has made a clear and concise effort to show a difference in how they're affected.

Point in Case:

(1)We know Juubi-Jins/Six Paths Characters (Madara/Toneri) are more Durable than their TSB's. This of course extends to Naruto, Juubito, Hags & Ham, etc.

(2)We know Senjutsu attacks negate the durability of Juubi-Jins when Naruto harms Juubito with a Rasengan in SM.

Based on the above, you're trying to Argue that, 'Because the Juubi-Jins are cloaked in Juubi Chakra and Senjutsu Attacks are shown to Negate Juubi-Jins Durability despite being cloaked in Juubi's Chakra, Juubi-Jins Jutsu's are therefore subject to being weakened by Senjutsu abilities as its shown', and because you're arguing that, you're then asserting that BSM Naruto's Feats are only applicable due to Juubi's Chakra being weakend. This is faulty logic because it ignores key factors such as, Juubi-Jins being more Durable than their TSB's

(3)When faced with Senjutsu laced attacks, Juubito's Chakra Arms are Eventually Shredded and the TSB holds up but is cracked (Following this there are 2 other feats which cause more damage then ultimately destroys the TSB).

The Issue here is that, your logic cant reconcile these events. Your logic cant have it both ways. Via feats: Juubi-Jins Durability > TSB Durability > Chakra Arms Durability. The only logical conclusion to your arguments is that if Juubi-Jins cloaked in Juubi's Chakra have their Durability Negated, then the TSB and Chakra Arms should be moreso affected and easily overcome by this, "Weakness"...But they aren't. The Chakra Arms and TSB's showed VASTLY HIGHER Durability to VASTLY STRONGER Senjutsu Attacks, consistently and that breaks your logic.

You can't claim these consistent feats are outliers or somehow PIS. That is an appeal to incredulity for a new form that had no prior feats. I disagree with that stance.

The facts are that simple. The TSB's and Chakra Arms are not affected in the same manor as his physical body. So the argument holds no weight and they don't scale to Juubito as the original premise of your post lays out. They scale from the TSB and Juubito himself has consistent feats of showing casual superiority to BSM Naruto/CSM Susanoo and SM Hashirama. Via jutsu AND Physically.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

You're clearly mixed up here. I said they're at least relative to each other in an attempt to prove that Juubito's striking strength is comparable to AP/durability/etc. I am well aware that the TSB is superior to the chakra arms, and that Juubito is superior to both physically, but at the end of the day we don't know the exact value, or how much superior he is. As a result, all 3 scale to the exact same tier, which is 6-A+ atm.

I agree with all of this.

The problem here is that when he slammed them, and effortlessly destroyed their forms, it was still done by his arm-shaped TSBs, not by Juubito himslef. So how can they logically scale to the TSB, but also far below it simultaneously?

No, they shouldn't scale because you can't simultaneously be comparable to and far inferior to something.

Just because Character A demolished both B and C, doesn't necessarily mean that B= C. They didn't tank anything here, as both of their chakra avatars were completely destroyed by the same attack, but that doesn't necessarily confirm that they're equal in this particular instance.
Anyway, I'm not really against Sasuke scaling to Naruto here, I just don't think this particular instance should be the justification.

When did this ever happen? If you mean the final clash with the Sword of Nonuboku, then I have already proven why he'd already wavered and completely lost mentally by that point.

Okay, so let's say BSM Naruto scales to 6-A here, hypothetically. This means that Sage Mode is enough of a boost to take him from High 6-C/Low 6-B all the way to 6-A+.
Now we have Madara's MA being somewhat relative to SM Hashi's strongest technique, so going by your premise here that would mean that Madara's PS and Kurama are laughably stronger than base Hashirama's Mokuton, when we know that is definitely not the case as I've proven in the OP (Kurama is comparable to Base Hashi's Wood Golem, and his Mokuton is capable of tanking a TBB from Kurama. We also know that Kurama is comparable to the PS, so arguing that it's somehow thousands of times stronger than both Kurama and Hashi's Mokuton doesn't really work either).

So this interpretation just does not work, logically. The MA cannot just be A+B if we consider SM to be a big enough boost to take you from High 6-C to 6-A.

Will reply to this later.

 

[BlackeJan]

Iirc, there was a scene in the manga where BSM/SM Susano clashed with Juubito yet nothing happened

so literally, anything utilizing Senjutsu chakra is what cause the weakness to activate

 

[TheFinalOrder]

You're clearly mixed up here. I said they're at least relative to each other in an attempt to prove that Juubito's striking strength is comparable to AP/durability/etc. I am well aware that the TSB is superior to the chakra arms, and that Juubito is superior to both physically, but at the end of the day we don't know the exact value, or how much superior he is. As a result, all 3 scale to the exact same tier, which is 6-A+ atm.

True, all three are but the issue here is the tier is extremely variable and you can't just simply say they're relative by virtue of being in the same tier. "Unknown" is "Unknown" thus even saying they're relative is based on "Unknowns".

The problem here is that when he slammed them, and effortlessly destroyed their forms, it was still done by his arm-shaped TSBs, not by Juubito himslef. So how can they logically scale to the TSB, but also far below it simultaneously?

There is a flaw in your logic here. You're bringing up the fact that he slammed with "with" TSB Hands. That is irrelevant and here is why: Like a Baseball Bat, the TSB's don't have a physical AP (Their own Individual Power is stated to be able to "Destroy a Forest"). The AP they do get, again, like a Baseball Bat, comes from it being swung (In general used as a Weapon: Swung, Thrusted, Projectile, etc). You're attempting to give credit for the feat to the TSB instead of Obito's own strength and unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Note: A feat like this falls under F=MA and many conversions and that force is Generated by the Arms Swinging/Slamming Down. Note 2: irl, Humans "can" generate more force than swinging objects, like BaseBall Bats by quite a bit. So in a verse dealing with Superhumans and those with "Godlike Powers", it can easily be asserted that Obito can generate more force physically swinging the TSB.

Tl;dr: The TSB don't have a Physical AP just like a Baseball Bat. The AP is the Force Generated by Obito Swinging his arms down and irl sets a precedent which allows Obito be be Stronger than an object he swings, thus, you can't simply attribute the feat to the TSB as they aren't Generating the Force.

Granted yes, the Force gets stronger the further away from the person the tip of the Object being swung is, but the object being swung isn't Generating it.

No, they shouldn't scale because you can't simultaneously be comparable to and far inferior to something.

They should scale. You're under the misconception that the TSB Generated the Force when they didn't. Obito Generated the Force in that slam. You're mischaracterizing the feat as something the TSB did when they were just used as a tool and Obito is the one actually swinging them. The Force Generated by Obito's Swing is concentrated within Naruto/Sasuke as they are the ones at the end of the TSB where the energy of the swing pools.

Just because Character A demolished both B and C, doesn't necessarily mean that B= C. They didn't tank anything here, as both of their chakra avatars were completely destroyed by the same attack, but that doesn't necessarily confirm that they're equal in this particular instance.
Anyway, I'm not really against Sasuke scaling to Naruto here, I just don't think this particular instance should be the justification.

It doesn't really work that way. Obito slammed them with equal force, destroying their avatars leaving Naruto, Sasuke and Juugo equally injured. That is a clear of CSM Susanoo having equal Durability to BSM Kurama's Avatar.

When did this ever happen? If you mean the final clash with the Sword of Nonuboku, then I have already proven why he'd already wavered and completely lost mentally by that point.

I'm talking about when Naruto threw the 9 Rasengans into the TSB Shield he created. This occured before obito Waivered.

Okay, so let's say BSM Naruto scales to 6-A here, hypothetically. This means that Sage Mode is enough of a boost to take him from High 6-C/Low 6-B all the way to 6-A+.
Now we have Madara's MA being somewhat relative to SM Hashi's strongest technique, so going by your premise here that would mean that Madara's PS and Kurama are laughably stronger than base Hashirama's Mokuton, when we know that is definitely not the case as I've proven in the OP (Kurama is comparable to Base Hashi's Wood Golem, and his Mokuton is capable of tanking a TBB from Kurama. We also know that Kurama is comparable to the PS, so arguing that it's somehow thousands of times stronger than both Kurama and Hashi's Mokuton doesn't really work either).

This is misleading to an extent. For starters, there is nothing actually putting 100% Kurama on PS Level. In the Kage fight, Madara's statement of "Only The Biju Can Rival its Power" is in reference to DC, which is true. Biju AoE can cause comparable damage. This is implied by Madara telling them to be thankful that Hashirama isn't there because of the extent to which the maps has to be redrawn. Madara never referenced his AP but emphasized his DC. Second, Base Hashirama's Mokuton was Easily One Shotted by PS whereas 100% Kurama struggled against it. Again, the DB states Majestic Attire is Just a Suit of Armor over combines Kurama's Strength with PS's and Increases Kurama's Durability because...."Armor"....its self-explanatory. And Note that Hashirama's Strongest Jutsu didn't completely destroy PS. It took Pieces off of it but Madara/Kurama was unharmed by the entire aftermath of the Fists, PS/BD explosions, etc etc. So Yeah, it makes sense but you are not framing it in the proper way.

So this interpretation just does not work, logically. The MA cannot just be A+B if we consider SM to be a big enough boost to take you from High 6-C to 6-A.

It works. You're just trying to assert 100% Kurama = PS Madara. EMS Madara at his Strongest is Relative (In the Ball Park) to SM Hashirama via feats. Kurama's Physical Strength Adding to PS is a Plus, sure, but not game changing.

 

[Kidkinsey]

^The point about madara refering to DC and not ap is good especially since he talks about redrawing the maps
Hashirama can sense the 10 tails AND juubito yet he only says juubito is stronger then him, its pretty safe to assume hashi=>juubi based off of that, and for the
Kurama=wood golem statements thats fine but that isnt Hashiramas best wood style jutsu its the 1000 hand buddah

As for this whole Senjutsu weakness, Ninjutsu dosent work genjutsu wont work because he has a sharingan/rinnegan+mind hax resistance so Senjutsu is the onlt thing that isnt Nulled that dont mean its x2 effective

 

[Slacjow]

Deity Gates is a sealing jutsu. We don't scale sealing jutsus to people, unless all those fodder in the war ~ everyone they sealed. We don't even scale putting your weight on people. That's like scaling Gamabunta to Kurama for jumping on him.

I explained on this already, read everything I said about sealing jutsus in the previous replies.

Well, this isn't a universal rule by any means. To use your Sasuke example, we know that his regular Chidori is stronger than his Chidori blade, and that Kirin is his strongest Raiton Jutsu by far. Are we supposed to scale all of those Jutsu as equal purely because they're all Raiton based? I would like to take these things on a case by case basis.

Yet we still assign all his techniques the same tier from a single calc, like how we scale Naruto to FRS for example in SM, he doesn't have X with FRS, Y with Rasengan.
Nobody ever asks "Prove Rasengan scales to FRS?", why ask now? Because we are on different sides?

As long as said Sage Art techniques have no reason to scale to the character's physicals or their other Jutsu, then I think this suggestion is quite good even if you only said it sarcastically.

I never said it scales to their physical characteristics, it might've sounded sarcastic but if you disagree with Deity Gates scaling to other Sage Art techniques because this time you feel like it doesn't scale then we will have to do an overhaul not just Sage Art but any technique, because this isn't exclusive to Sage Art.
I don't think people here are gonna love seeing X with Rasengan, Y with FRS, A with TBBRS on the profiles and so on.

I never said it didn't have a physical form, AP, or Durability. I'm asking why should it scale to his Mokuton? You have yet to provide me with a reason to scale one to the other.
Again, I think the Gates should get their own rating on his profile for AP and Durability, but I don't see why they scale to his Mokuton.

Because Shinsuusenju is a more serious technique for example, that strains his body, Buddha in SM fights equally with Perfect Susanoo and the Madara and Kurama scaling I already explained.

It really doesn't, because I literally did not say they're exactly the same in form or application. All I did was set a precedence for Sealing Jutsu not scaling to the characters who perform them, for various reasons, which is indeed the case. Kushina and Minato don't scale to Kurama via those Jutsu, and I don't see why Hashirama's Mokuton should scale to his.

You didn't explain anything, you have yet to give reasons as to why Deity Gates are above his other techniques. Kushina never damaged Kurama with her Sealing Jutsu, she restrained him, and let's not forget that Kushina as Uzumaki has massive chakra, that's why her chains are strong.
Minato used Reaper Seal, it works differently.

To me that only further implies that it shouldn't scale to his Mokuton. You really think the Juubi is so fodder compared to Madara and Kurama to the point of him not showing more effort against it being a supporting point?

No, Juubi isn't fodder, but Madara and Hashirama are above whatever it demonstrated.

The lack of effort implies that it's not a technique directly powered by Hashirama, with the exception of pouring Senjutsu chakra into the Seal Head which is what's responsible for the "sealing of the will to oppose". The actual physical power and durability of the Gates is impossible to connect to his Mokuton. This is why my proposal is that he gets different AP for Mokuton and the Deity Gates.

This is literally headcanon, Sage Art Ninjutsu are all based on the users chakra, they create those techniques.
You have yet to prove it's not connected to Hashirama. Just give a statement, that's it, no headcanon words.

No, I don't. Why would I come to that conclusion? Him not showing effort thanks to using a sealing justu? That doesn't seem like nearly good enough of a reason to scale the PS and Kurama to literally thousands of times higher than their best shown feats in the series (6-C+ to Low 6-B ranges vs 6-A+) via scaling to Hashirama's Gates here.

That's a very good reason that's been used for a long time in the wiki. Tier jumps were always a thing, it isn't an outlier, a lot of things support the idea of Hashirama being on the level of Juubi, don't reply to this, I'll list those below.

So? That would still make the PS and Kurama > Juubi, and 1000s of times above their best showcased feats. Sounds iffy to me, to say the least.

The manga made itself clear on powerscaling, you are ignoring it for the sake of profiles and VSB shenanigans.
It's not my fault 100% Kurama is an actual beast, alongside Madara. I don't konw if it's usable but 100% Kurama still fought Hamura's Statue in The Last which was powered by Toneri. Not my fault Hashirama said that Alive Madara with SM was only regaining his true strength, or how Hashirama stomped the Juubi, or how Hashirama was the sole reason the barrier withstood a giant BB.
Maybe it's time we accept that Hashirama and Madara which are reincarnations of Indra and Asura btw, are special and really strong individuals.
I am not at fault that Madara even after seeing the power of Juubi and Juubito was still confident he could put Juubito down.
Let's stop thinking that "oh, it's Juubi, you can't be equal or strong than that just because", when many things say otherwise.

Well, you haven't proven it, so that's a moot point. Also, it's funny that you said that since we ARE in the middle of a Naruto-verse overhaul.....

This isn't an overhaul, just some changes on like 5 characters, the actual overhaul would be when we separate all Ninjutsu on all profiles because apparently now we need to prove those scale to each other, so happened that we never had to do that in the past.

Yeah, it proves that he went all out against Madara, his equal, which makes sense. I still don't see why his Gates scale below this, though.+

Went all out against Madara, wasn't going all out against Juubi. Was the sole reason the barrier was indestructible, even used clones inside a barrier.
I think this says a lot.

I already explained in the OP why this is useless, as it's exactly what Naruto and Minato did/thought they could do in base SM. Exploiting a weakness doesn't mean you scale.

Yeah, except Naruto with Sasuke still got shitstomped by Obito when he got serious.
Literally, the moment he got serious those guys were stomped to the ground and had to break his will.

He wasn't concerned about the Juubi because it was already restrained, while Juubito was an active threat that could not be contained. Also this statement was clearly just meant to hype Juubito. Are we supposed to scale anyone that didn't show concern over a character above them automatically? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hashi wasn't going all out against Juubi right from the start. Well, there was no hype for Juubi from Hashirama that's for sure, or from other Kage.

So should Obito scale to his barrier that stopped Gyuki's assault and burned him? I'm fine with the concept, but we have to apply it consistently.

That's different, Uchiha Flame Formation isn't all about Obito's power, it uses the ground as catalyst and that's why requires less chakra than usual barriers, and it's noted that its power comes from extreme heat.
Even If it was a pure feat of power that didn't require any catalyst Obito still wouldn't get an AP, because it's noted in DB that the thing which repelled Gyuki was extreme heat of this exact technique.

I'd say he doesn't, necessarily.

Oh really.
1. His Deity Gates can restrained Juubi before lowering it's will, and those can tank Juubi Dama.
2. He is the reason the Barrier was indestructible, this isn't my headcanon it was confirmed, the Barrier requires characters of Kage Caliber, so, not some fodder, meaning it's a feat of strength:

There only needs to be four of the Ninja World’s leading shinobi; that is to say, if the nation-building God himself is present, then destroying it would be difficult.

3. Wasn't that concerned about Juubi. Has admitted his inferiority only to Juubito, who was stated to be stronger than Juubi. (because of focusing the power, but the method is irrelevant)
4. Madara with his Sage Mode was stated to be a threat to Juubito. He himself literally said that he could weaken Juubito to the point of extracting Bijuus.
And don't make another comparison with Naruto in this case, we both know Juubito stomped Naruto and Sasuke when he got serious, that's one of the reasons they don't scale.
5. That same Madara that threatened Juubito was only started regaining the strength of Prime Madara which Hashirama fought in the past, Hashirama himself made a statement, not me.
6. A comparison of Juubito to Hashirama from Databook. Doesn't necessarily mean they are equal but shows the level of power both possess:

"However, very rarely, only one person that possessed innate suitability and acquired mental strength, is allowed to wield a world-shaking power, feared even as the “Nation-Building God”!"

Edo Hashirama was no match for Juubito, that's true, Alive Hashirama on the other hand is unknown. I didn't make this statement, Kishi did.
7. I know this is not canon and anime only, but this is equivalent to Juubi Damas.
8. The explosion from Shinsuusenju is so big it almost makes mountains look flat. Nobody made such big explosions in Naruto besides Hashirama and Juubi. The explosion itself dwarfs Shinsuusenju that dwarfs mountains.
9. Madara was the closest person to Juubi when Tenpenchi happened. He didn't move from that place at all, and he took the very first shockwave that created a massive crater. With Susanoo of course, which lost one hand in the process.

Maybe it's time we accept that Hashirama and Madara which are reincarnations of Indra and Asura btw, are really strong individuals.
I am not at fault that Hashirama even after seeing the power of Juubi and Juubito was still confident he could put Juubito down.
Let's stop thinking that "oh, it's Juubi, you can't be equal or strong than that just because", when many things say otherwise.

I am against scaling character to X level, just because you or somebody else thinks it makes sense. The manga made itself clear.
Edo SM Hashirama=>Edo Madara>=Juubi. I excluded Juubito because even I believe he is stronger than even Prime Madara and SM Hashirama, being able to fight someone and weaken them still doesn't make you equivalent in power.
In the end, this is Madara and Hashirama we are talking about, not some random fodder, literally no one scales from them, they are special strong individuals.
And I'll stand by this always.

 

[Damage3245]

Edo SM Hashirama=>Edo Madara>=Juubi.

Edo Madara being more powerful than the Juubi... Now I've seen it all.

1. His Deity Gates can restrained Juubi before lowering it's will, and those can tank Juubi Dama.

The Juubi never made an effort to break free from them. It didn't focus its power. Main difference between it and Juubito.

2. He is the reason the Barrier was indestructible, this isn't my headcanon it was confirmed, the Barrier requires characters of Kage Caliber, so, not some fodder, meaning it's a feat of strength:

Do all four Hokage scale to the Juubi now then?

4. Madara with his Sage Mode was stated to be a threat to Juubito. He himself literally said that he could weaken Juubito to the point of extracting Bijuus.

So is Sage Mode Naruto.

If Sage Mode Naruto can hurt him, then no kidding could Sage Mode Madara hurt him.

Even Sage Mode Minato thought he could stop Six Paths Madara.

7. I know this is not canon and anime only, but this is equivalent to Juubi Damas.

Please don't bring it up then if it isn't canon.

8. The explosion from Shinsuusenju is so big it almost makes mountains look flat. Nobody made such big explosions in Naruto besides Hashirama and Juubi. The explosion itself dwarfs Shinsuusenju that dwarfs mountains.

Then calc it.

9. Madara was the closest person to Juubi when Tenpenchi happened. He didn't move from that place at all, and he took the very first shockwave that created a massive crater. With Susanoo of course, which lost one hand in the process.

He does not scale to it at all; he'd be tanking only a tiny fraction of the total energy of the Tenpenchi.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, can someone summarize the current arguments?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Ok, can someone summarize the current arguments?

This^

 

[M3X_2.0]

Just read all of Slacjow's posts.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Holy ****, what did I miss?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yet we still assign all his techniques the same tier from a single calc, like how we scale Naruto to FRS for example in SM, he doesn't have X with FRS, Y with Rasengan.
Nobody ever asks "Prove Rasengan scales to FRS?", why ask now? Because we are on different sides?

Well, in Sage Naruto's case, these Sage Rasengans happen to be the same tier through scaling. Let me explain.
These Sage Rasengans upscale from Naruto's physicals for being able to harm Pain; who can partially withstand his own Shinra Tensei. The same Shinra Tensei that can easily dissipate a FRS with ease. Now, if you have a problem with how this scaling is done, that's fine, we can argue against it on the other revision thread. But at least I'm attempting to give a valid reason for why each of his stats are the way they are, which I apply to his durability and SS as well.

I never said it scales to their physical characteristics, it might've sounded sarcastic but if you disagree with Deity Gates scaling to other Sage Art techniques because this time you feel like it doesn't scale then we will have to do an overhaul not just Sage Art but any technique, because this isn't exclusive to Sage Art.
I don't think people here are gonna love seeing X with Rasengan, Y with FRS, A with TBBRS on the profiles and so on.

Again, if a specific technique have shown overall better feats, portrayal, potency, or anything of the sort, then yes, they should be rated differently.

I'll give you an example. Let's take Sasuke vs B. Base B somewhat overwhelmed Sasuke, and then V2 B easily busted his chest open with a Lariat, so needless to say Sasuke is physically weaker than V2 B (If you somehow disagree, just treat this as a random example, and bear with me please. I'm just attempting to make a point). Later, Sasuke chopped off one of Gyuki's tentacles with a Chidori Spear. Now, I know this feat is kinda suspect, and probably wouldn't be accepted, but let's pretend it was for a second, alright? Do you think Sasuke would scale to Gyuki now, even though we've established that he's below V2 B? Or would he receive an extra rating for his Chidori? I think the answer is obvious.

And yes, I don't mind applying this to every appropriate case, regardless of what people want. Accuracy is the goal, first and foremost. If pleasing people was our goal here, then we would have 6-C Hidan and 4-B Kaguya already lol.

Because Shinsuusenju is a more serious technique for example, that strains his body, Buddha in SM fights equally with Perfect Susanoo and the Madara and Kurama scaling I already explained.

My claim is that the Gates are a technique that's separate from the rest of his arsenal, doesn't scale to his arsenal, and is just a hax that he drops on his opponent and lets it do the rest of the work by sealing their will to oppose him, so of course it would not be strenuous on his body like battling to the death against an equal opponent using a technique you're actively controlling.

You didn't explain anything, you have yet to give reasons as to why Deity Gates are above his other techniques. Kushina never damaged Kurama with her Sealing Jutsu, she restrained him, and let's not forget that Kushina as Uzumaki has massive chakra, that's why her chains are strong.
Minato used Reaper Seal, it works differently.

The Deity Gates didn't harm the Juubi either, did they? All it did was restrain him, partially via Sealing hax/Willpower Manip. Also, Kushina's chains are made of her chakra, directly controlled by her, and she has no anti-feats, so why don't we scale her to Kurama as well while we're at it?

No, Juubi isn't fodder, but Madara and Hashirama are above whatever it demonstrated.

I'd argue they're not. Their best demonstrated feats are in the 6-C to Low 6-B range, while the Juubi you're attempting to scale them to is 6-A+, I don't think conjecture alone is enough to bridge such a massive gap.

This is literally headcanon, Sage Art Ninjutsu are all based on the users chakra, they create those techniques.
You have yet to prove it's not connected to Hashirama. Just give a statement, that's it, no headcanon words.

As I said before, being in the same category of Jutsu does not automatically guarantee that techniques are equal without feats, statements, or proper scaling.

The manga made itself clear on powerscaling, you are ignoring it for the sake of profiles and VSB shenanigans.
It's not my fault 100% Kurama is an actual beast, alongside Madara. I don't konw if it's usable but 100% Kurama still fought Hamura's Statue in The Last which was powered by Toneri.

That statue has no feats, so who knows how powerful it was? But more importantly, that was the Kurama Avatar, not flesh and blood Kurama, which means he had Naruto's chakra mixed in as well, meaning it clearly wasn't the same Kurama as the one in the VOTE due to potential Six Paths Chakra amps.

Not my fault Hashirama said that Alive Madara with SM was only regaining his true strength,

This statement has nothing to do with the Juubi though. All it means is that SM Madara ~ Alive Madara > Edo Madara, which I agree with.

or how Hashirama stomped the Juubi

"Stomped" is a bit much, don't you think? He just restrained it, and sealed its movements/willpower to resist with a special Sealing Jutsu.

, or how Hashirama was the sole reason the barrier withstood a giant BB.

Well, again, If we scale everyone to their barriers, I'll agree with this point.

Maybe it's time we accept that Hashirama and Madara which are reincarnations of Indra and Asura btw, are special and really strong individuals.
I am not at fault that Madara even after seeing the power of Juubi and Juubito was still confident he could put Juubito down.
Let's stop thinking that "oh, it's Juubi, you can't be equal or strong than that just because", when many things say otherwise.

Well, for the record, I do believe that Madara and Hashirama are the two strongest characters in the series that aren't on the Juubi/Six Paths level (even above BSM Naruto and CS Sasuke), but I digress.

Let me ask you, would saying that a character didn't seem visibly worried about someone be valid reason to scale anyone else normally? Let's say Itachi somehow made it to the war, and confidently proclaimed that he was going to defeat Madara. Would you automatically gravitate towards scaling Itachi above the Perfect Susano'o solely based on that? I highly doubt that, but even if you did it's simply not a valid reason. Hell, it's not valid in this case either because Hashirama had nothing to worry about in regards to the Juubi, as it was already contained and restrained. He did not have to fight it directly.

As for Madara's statement about being able to handle Juubito, I already explained at length in the OP why that would not be valid. Minato literally believed he could do the same to JJ Madara with SM, so are we supposed to scale SM Minato to JJ Madara?

This isn't an overhaul, just some changes on like 5 characters, the actual overhaul would be when we separate all Ninjutsu on all profiles because apparently now we need to prove those scale to each other, so happened that we never had to do that in the past.

This isn't the overhaul, but a part of it. You can't expect me to have all the changes in one thread, can you? You can see how long this one already is......lol

Also, appeal to traditon, or something.

Went all out against Madara, wasn't going all out against Juubi. Was the sole reason the barrier was indestructible, even used clones inside a barrier.
I think this says a lot.

Why would he go all out when he's essentially using hax to restrain someone's movements and contain them? I already explained my stance on the barrier stuff.

As for the clones, I'm not sure what that's meant to signify, but for what it's worth, they were significantly weaker than usual since he was focusing most of his chakra on the barrier.

Yeah, except Naruto with Sasuke still got shitstomped by Obito when he got serious.
Literally, the moment he got serious those guys were stomped to the ground and had to break his will.

Well, yeah. That's kinda the whole point of the second half of my OP, so thankfully we at least agree on this.

Hashi wasn't going all out against Juubi right from the start. Well, there was no hype for Juubi from Hashirama that's for sure, or from other Kage.

So we decide scaling based on portrayal now? Also, Juubi already got plenty of hype from Kurama and Gyuki prior to the Kage's arrival, so it would've been redundant to waste time on hyping him up all over again.

That's different, Uchiha Flame Formation isn't all about Obito's power, it uses the ground as catalyst and that's why requires less chakra than usual barriers, and it's noted that its power comes from extreme heat.
Even If it was a pure feat of power that didn't require any catalyst Obito still wouldn't get an AP, because it's noted in DB that the thing which repelled Gyuki was extreme heat of this exact technique.

Heat doesn't stop punches though, it just burns. Gyuki was burned, yes, but the force of his punch was also halted completely.

In any case, I won't stall the conversation any longer with the Obito stuff, but you should probably stop using the barrier as an argument as well, since there's quite a few problems with using it to scale Hashirama anyway. For starters, if we were to use it for scaling, it would scale to his physicals because there's really no connection between it and Mokuton. At best it would get it's own separate rating, so I think it's really useless to continue arguing about the barrier because it'll lead nowhere.

Oh really.
1. His Deity Gates can restrained Juubi before lowering it's will, and those can tank Juubi Dama.

And I still ask why should they scale to his Mokuton directly, and not just get their separate rating on his profile?

2. He is the reason the Barrier was indestructible, this isn't my headcanon it was confirmed, the Barrier requires characters of Kage Caliber, so, not some fodder, meaning it's a feat of strength:

Okay, so are we supposed to scale the other Kage like Minato, Tobirama and Hiruzen to it as well? Orochimaru would scale to Hiruzen, Ginkaku and Kinkaku would scale to Tobirama, and the list goes on.

Also, on this "Nation-building God" thing, that doesn't really mean anything AP wise. Hashirama built Konoha, and led to the stability of the Land of Fire, and by extension the rest of the world. I'm 99% sure that's what it's referring to. Even if we take this statement at face value, and just slap "Country level" on his profile, that would still be significantly off the 6-A+ mark, so it doesn't work as a supporting feat, even with maximum wank.

3. Wasn't that concerned about Juubi. Has admitted his inferiority only to Juubito, who was stated to be stronger than Juubi. (because of focusing the power, but the method is irrelevant)

I already addressed this, but this really isn't a proper scaling method. A lot of characters didn't directly admit inferiority to other characters, but does that automatically scale them above those characters purely because of that? Even if the feats don't add up?

4. Madara with his Sage Mode was stated to be a threat to Juubito. He himself literally said that he could weaken Juubito to the point of extracting Bijuus.

Read the OP.

And don't make another comparison with Naruto in this case, we both know Juubito stomped Naruto and Sasuke when he got serious, that's one of the reasons they don't scale.

I love you rn, ngl. I'm contemplating a concession just because of this.

5. That same Madara that threatened Juubito was only started regaining the strength of Prime Madara which Hashirama fought in the past, Hashirama himself made a statement, not me.

We both know Madara required Senjutsu to do anything to Juubito, so while his Prime self may have been as strong as his SM self, that doesn't mean he was capable of doing anything to Juubito in his prime due to lacking Senjutsu (Which is the main property that all those characters who harmed Juubi Jins with their Jutsu have in common.

6. A comparison of Juubito to Hashirama from Databook. Doesn't necessarily mean they are equal but shows the level of power both possess:

You already admitted that Hashirama is far inferior to Juubito, which was directly stated and confirmed by Hashirama himself, so I'm honestly not sure what to make of this. You already know this, but if the DB contradicts the manga in any way, then it is ignored.

Edo Hashirama was no match for Juubito, that's true, Alive Hashirama on the other hand is unknown. I didn't make this statement, Kishi did.

At best, he would scale to SM Madara, who was comparable to the individual Bijuu; a far cry from the Juubi.

7. I know this is not canon and anime only, but this is equivalent to Juubi Damas.

Well, we'd need to calc it first to confirm that, but as you said it's unfortunately not canon. Just to make it clear, I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely wish this were canon.

8. The explosion from Shinsuusenju is so big it almost makes mountains look flat. Nobody made such big explosions in Naruto besides Hashirama and Juubi. The explosion itself dwarfs Shinsuusenju that dwarfs mountains.

I agree that it's an awesome feat, but again we need to get it calced and accepted before it can mean anything. We can't just 'eyeball' feats like that, that's what calcs are for. Also, I highly doubt this feat will yield anything in the 6-A range, as we likely won't use vaporization for it like the TBBs, but this is one of the cases where I hope I'm wrong.

9. Madara was the closest person to Juubi when Tenpenchi happened. He didn't move from that place at all, and he took the very first shockwave that created a massive crater. With Susanoo of course, which lost one hand in the process.

So was KCM Naruto, and a bunch of other Ninjas who survived. They didn't tank the full yield of the Tnepechii, but only a small portion, which can also be calced whenever we get an accepted Tenpechii calc.

I am against scaling character to X level, just because you or somebody else thinks it makes sense. The manga made itself clear.

Once again, I would be inclined to disagree.

Edo SM Hashirama=>Edo Madara>=Juubi. I excluded Juubito because even I believe he is stronger than even Prime Madara and SM Hashirama, being able to fight someone and weaken them still doesn't make you equivalent in power.

I fully agree with your thoughts on Juubito, at least. Finally some common ground.

In the end, this is Madara and Hashirama we are talking about, not some random fodder, literally no one scales from them, they are special strong individuals.
And I'll stand by this always.

I agree that they are special, and strong, but there is a problem here. Other characters DO scale to their full power, or I should say just one. That character is called Kurama, and he is shown to be comparable to them time and time again during their VOTE fight, and this is also confirmed through multiple statements that I've provided in my High tiers scaling section of the OP.
Why is this an issue? Well, like I explained before, his 50% self (AKA. BM Naruto) has his literal full power, being the combined charged TBB, calced at Low 6-B. Even if we go with my interpretation that the MA greatly increases power beyond the sum of its parts, we'd still be left with the issue of it being an amp of literally thousands of times over, which just doesn't add up tbh. SM being that big of a boost doesn't make sense under any circumstances either.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ok, can someone summarize the current arguments?

This^

Basically, @Slacjow believes that Madara and Hashirama should scale to the Juubi due to Hashirama's Deity Gates restraining the Juubi and tanking his TBB. He has some other arguments, but this is the main thing.

I'm arguing against that mainly because I don't think there's a sufficient reason for the Gates to scale to his Mokuton as of yet.

@TheFinalOrder disagrees with my OP's assertion that BSM Naruto and CM Susano'o Sasuke should NOT scale to Juubito for various reasons I have yet to fully address due to irl time constraints. I will soon though.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

1000th viewer

 

[Slacjow]

Edo Madara being more powerful than the Juubi... Now I've seen it all.

Tbh it's irrelevant how you personally think.
I specifically said that I disagree with rating characters only based on who they are.
"Muh Juubit, muh Juubi".

The Juubi never made an effort to break free from them. It didn't focus its power. Main difference between it and Juubito.

I know it never made an effort to free itself, but it made an effort to bust the barrier, which withstood the attack, and Gates did too.

Do all four Hokage scale to the Juubi now then?

No, because Hashirama was the reason the barrier was so indestructible, did you read what I said? I brought it up for that reason. Otherwise it would be useless.

If Sage Mode Naruto can hurt him, then no kidding could Sage Mode Madara hurt him.

Even Sage Mode Minato thought he could stop Six Paths Madara.

We both know Obito destroyed Naruto and Sasuke in their much stronger forms.
He wouldn't hold back against Madara.

Please don't bring it up then if it isn't canon.

I believe it's okay using anime as a support, people do it on the wiki for some anime.

Then calc it.

The point was to show the scale of the attack not AP.

He does not scale to it at all; he'd be tanking only a tiny fraction of the total energy of the Tenpenchi.

Maybe.

For the rest, this:

Basically, @Slacjow believes that Madara and Hashirama should scale to the Juubi due to Hashirama's Deity Gates restraining the Juubi and tanking his TBB. He has some other arguments, but this is the main thing.

 

[Kidkinsey]

so hashi is about to have a physicals wood style And deity gates rating?

 

[KingTempest]

So.....

Madara + Kurama = Sage Hashi = Juubi now?

 

[Kidkinsey]

I mean he dosen't admit he's weaker until juubito so SM hashi>10 tails isnt absurd

 

[Damage3245]

I mean he dosen't admit he's weaker until juubito so SM hashi>10 tails isnt absurd

That is not evidence in favor of him being above the Juubi.

Since 99.9% of Juubito's power comes from the Juubi, that says to me more that Hashirama is inferior to the Juubi.

so hashi is about to have a physicals wood style And deity gates rating?

The Deity Gates don't really have an AP value. They aren't used as an actual attack, just as a seal.

 

[theultimate5105]

I disagree with Naruto and Sasuke not scaling but agree with everything else
-first of all senjutsu is a weakness as in it only effects jubbi jins when ninjutsu doesn’t work on them the story at that point is showing that senjutsu works when nothing else does a negligible attack would never get the point across
-on a few more of your points you bring up him holding back with the chakra arms but his TSBs have no reason to hold back and cracking them is a AP feat
-For him destroying their avatars well they would be around half of his power so it fits with what happened
-for their clash it wasn’t purely resolve based and the fact that they actually clashed equally at the star
- for the majestic attire susanoo no that is dumb Hashiramas strongest attacks were destroying it so it would never scale at all

 

[Kidkinsey]

If hashi can sense the power levels of both but only says juubito is above him that should be good not to mention his feats of the gates taking the biju bombs
He's a perfect jinchuriki their powers are mixed and amplified. He can be above both them individually but the fusion can surpass him
Isnt it classified as a sage art ninjutsu? I understand if we did this for the reaper death seal but the gates are a ninjutsu

 

[BlackeJan]

I think people forgotten that Alive Hashi was also taking on Kurama and Madara at the same time and was doing very well

also BSM/SM Susano should scale to Juubito physically

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

True, all three are but the issue here is the tier is extremely variable and you can't just simply say they're relative by virtue of being in the same tier. "Unknown" is "Unknown" thus even saying they're relative is based on "Unknowns".

One again, you're misunderstanding the premise of my OP. Look, the first half of the OP that deals with Juubito's stats specifically has a very distinct purpose when compared to the latter half. There was a lot of contention put forth by a few people regarding whether he should scale to the Juubi physically or not in the last 6-A thread. That's why I was strictly attempting to prove that he scales to or above the Juubi physically using "safe low-ends" in order to convince these more.........let's say "skeptical" individuals lol. That's it, really. So try not to connect the first and second half of the OP too much, as they serve completely different purposes at the end of the day.

There is a flaw in your logic here. You're bringing up the fact that he slammed with "with" TSB Hands. That is irrelevant and here is why: Like a Baseball Bat, the TSB's don't have a physical AP (Their own Individual Power is stated to be able to "Destroy a Forest"). The AP they do get, again, like a Baseball Bat, comes from it being swung (In general used as a Weapon: Swung, Thrusted, Projectile, etc). You're attempting to give credit for the feat to the TSB instead of Obito's own strength and unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Note: A feat like this falls under F=MA and many conversions and that force is Generated by the Arms Swinging/Slamming Down. Note 2: irl, Humans "can" generate more force than swinging objects, like BaseBall Bats by quite a bit. So in a verse dealing with Superhumans and those with "Godlike Powers", it can easily be asserted that Obito can generate more force physically swinging the TSB.

Tl;dr: The TSB don't have a Physical AP just like a Baseball Bat. The AP is the Force Generated by Obito Swinging his arms down and irl sets a precedent which allows Obito be be Stronger than an object he swings, thus, you can't simply attribute the feat to the TSB as they aren't Generating the Force.

Granted yes, the Force gets stronger the further away from the person the tip of the Object being swung is, but the object being swung isn't Generating it.

Here's the thing. People generally generate FAR more force than normal when swinging objects like baseball bats and hammers, due to the added mass and density of the object being swung. I understand there are outliers like, say, Mike Tyson, but he is just that: An outlier. He is in a completely different league from the average athlete, let alone the average human, so I don't really think this example in and of itself is apt.

However, upon further inspection of the scene in question, it doesn't even appear to me that Obito swung them anymore, but rather grabbed them with the TSB arms and flew with them into the ground. So I guess it was a more physical feat than I gave it credit for, but this will bleed into my next point.

They should scale. You're under the misconception that the TSB Generated the Force when they didn't. Obito Generated the Force in that slam. You're mischaracterizing the feat as something the TSB did when they were just used as a tool and Obito is the one actually swinging them. The Force Generated by Obito's Swing is concentrated within Naruto/Sasuke as they are the ones at the end of the TSB where the energy of the swing pools.

Now that I understand this scene better, I think it is further proof that they should absolutely NOT scale to this feat physically under any circumstances.

Now that I look at it, every instance where they attack Juubito physically they fail to do any sort of damage, and only manage to affect him with Sage-Enhanced Jutsu. So at this point, the best case scenario for them is to only scale via Jutsu, but even that I feel is very unreliable given the Sage Minato, Sage Naruto, and potentially Sage Madara examples of characters who are certainly not on the level of Juubito/Juudara AP-wise being capable/thinking they are capable of harming the Juubi Jins with their Sage Jutsu.

And no, I do not think it is fair to ignore these anti-feats or consider them outliers when they are nearly as numerous as the examples that allow them to scale. We can't just pick and choose what suits us when it's convenient. (Not accusing you of anything, btw, just replying to those who said we should ignore these examples outright, which I think is wrong and unwarranted)

It doesn't really work that way. Obito slammed them with equal force, destroying their avatars leaving Naruto, Sasuke and Juugo equally injured. That is a clear of CSM Susanoo having equal Durability to BSM Kurama's Avatar.

I don't think this is necessarily the case. Let's say I'm capable of breaking a wall, but then I also break a thin wooden board using the same force I used to break the wall. Would I then be able to say that the wall's durability is equal to that of the wooden board, and vice versa? Obito destroyed both Avatars using the same force, but since neither of them tanked it more than the other, I don't feel like we can properly rate their durability as equal solely based on this.

I'm talking about when Naruto threw the 9 Rasengans into the TSB Shield he created. This occured before obito Waivered.

Like I said before, it was a Sage Jutsu, which would fall under the examples I listed earlier. At best, they only scale via Jutsu, and at worst it doesn't count due to the large amount of anti-feats.

Also, I feel like I've made a good argument for why he wasn't exactly fighting at his best, even before he completely waivered at the end, but it still shouldn't matter too much.

This is misleading to an extent. For starters, there is nothing actually putting 100% Kurama on PS Level. In the Kage fight, Madara's statement of "Only The Biju Can Rival its Power" is in reference to DC, which is true. Biju AoE can cause comparable damage. This is implied by Madara telling them to be thankful that Hashirama isn't there because of the extent to which the maps has to be redrawn. Madara never referenced his AP but emphasized his DC.

Well, there is more than just Madara's statement to the Kage. We actually see Madara fighting Edo Hashirama's Wood Golem during the War, the same Wood Golem who's directly compared to Kurama, which lends further credence to the idea that Kurama ~ PS ~ Golem.

Also, we don't automatically assume that AP > DC unless something really suggests it or proves it, so it's somewhat of an assumption on your part, I feel.

Second, Base Hashirama's Mokuton was Easily One Shotted by PS whereas 100% Kurama struggled against it. Again, the DB states Majestic Attire is Just a Suit of Armor over combines Kurama's Strength with PS's and Increases Kurama's Durability because...."Armor"....its self-explanatory. And Note that Hashirama's Strongest Jutsu didn't completely destroy PS. It took Pieces off of it but Madara/Kurama was unharmed by the entire aftermath of the Fists, PS/BD explosions, etc etc. So Yeah, it makes sense but you are not framing it in the proper way.

He struggled against the Wood Dragon's binding ability, but his Bijuu bomb was still able to easily plow through the Wood Dragon. Only Hashirama's Wood Golem was able to match that BB and protected Hashirama from the explosion, which again makes the Golem = Kurama statement quite consistent. Also those arms that the MA was able to one shot may have been weaker than the Golem for all we know. There's no real way of knowing for sure, but to make things even stranger the arms were still capable of catching one of his blades, so it's not like they're impossibly weaker or anything.

It being a combination of their abilities doesn't necessarily rule out it being an amp. If we assume it's purely A+B, a few issues arise though.
Again, it would mean that SM offers a negligible amp to AP, which is certainly not the case, but it even goes against your premise of BSM catching up to Juubito's level via Sage Mode (Since, again, he's only High 6-C). Everything points towards Madara being comparable to Base Hashirama and Kurama normally, and nothing really implies that he is that much above them. High 6-C vs 6-A+ is an absolutely MASSIVE difference, and I don't see how Madara could consider Base Hashirama even remotely threatening if the gap is that massive between them. If we go with my scaling, it would actually fit your idea of the differences between them and SM Hashirama not being that big by the virtue of the AP gap not being that ridiculous.

Base Hashi's Mokuton = 100% Kurama = Perfect Susano'o = High 6-C+ (991 GT)

SM Hashirama = 6-B (9.91 Teratons) >= Majestic Attire Susano'o.

Going by this is not only way more consistent, but we can even potentially give the PS 6-B durability for its feats against SM Hashi without resulting in any weird inconsistencies.

This is even consistent with 50% Kurama (BM Naruto) being High 6-C via his own feats and scaling. I don't think we should treat characters in a vacuum, but also consider how scaling them a certain way will affect the overall scaling and other characters. I think this is the most consistent way to scale them with the feats we have calced at the moment IMHO.

It works. You're just trying to assert 100% Kurama = PS Madara. EMS Madara at his Strongest is Relative (In the Ball Park) to SM Hashirama via feats. Kurama's Physical Strength Adding to PS is a Plus, sure, but not game changing.

Narratively it makes no sense for Madara to be that much stronger than base Hashirama or Kurama, and Kurama was not portrayed as a side show to Madara, but rather a relevant addition to his arsenal that seemingly saw him get the closest he ever has to actually defeating Hashirama.

 

[Kidkinsey]

what we doing with their durablity because it seems like people want something like AP:town level mountain with ninjutsu, but if thats theh case ninjutsu would be one shotting everybody which isnt the case

 

[Damage3245]

what we doing with their durablity because it seems like people want something like AP:town level mountain with ninjutsu, but if thats theh case ninjutsu would be one shotting everybody which isnt the case

Whose durability?

 

[Kidkinsey]

The verse in general lets use the bijus for examples. If their AP is island via biju bombs their durability should be the same because they can survive them BUT they can also harm eachother with physical attacks

 

[Damage3245]

The verse in general lets use the bijus for examples. If their AP is island via biju bombs their durability should be the same because they can survive them BUT they can also harm eachother with physical attacks

If they have feats, then they have feats.

But then again, only two Biju have been shown surviving a Biju Bomb.

 

[Kidkinsey]

All of them scale to eachother with the exception of kurama who is>

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

what we doing with their durablity because it seems like people want something like AP:town level mountain with ninjutsu, but if thats theh case ninjutsu would be one shotting everybody which isnt the case

This isn't really what this thread is about. We can discuss this whenever we get to doing the AP revisions for the other characters. This is just for Juubito (and the Top tiers who may or may not scale to him).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Bump

 

[Kidkinsey]

Im still in the hashi>juubi camp, we shouldn't totally ignore his statement since we know he can sense power levels

 

[Damage3245]

Im still in the hashi>juubi camp, we shouldn't totally ignore his statement since we know he can sense power levels

His statement is irrelevant.

He doesn't say "The Juubi is weaker than me, but this guy is stronger than me."

 

[Rocker1189]

Oh man the arguments here have been long.

 

[Kidkinsey]

If he can sense the energy of both and he only admits he isn't top dog when juubito is formed how is that irrelevant? If he was below the 10 tails he would have said it. Plus his deity gates survived the 10 tailed biju bombs iirc

 

[Damage3245]

If he can sense the energy of both and he only admits he isn't top dog when juubito is formed how is that irrelevant? If he was below the 10 tails he would have said it. Plus his deity gates survived the 10 tailed biju bombs iirc

Unfortunately there isn't any proof that he would have said that, so I don't believe he would have said it.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with Damage.

Anyway, I think we should try to wrap this up soon. It's been stagnant for about a week now.