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Yo everyone!
I hope ya'll are doing great. This may very well be my fastest thread turnover, EVER. There's a reason for this, though. Firstly, this is the much awaited Top Tiers revision. As many of you may know, it really does not involve that many characters, only 11 to be exact. This had the fortunate effect of this not taking that long to churn out. It's also been in the works for quite a while behind the scenes, so we kinda knew what we were going for right away and the planning process was brief. Perhaps most importantly, we wanted to get this out of the way as quickly as possible so we can focus on more urgent matters like the verse's Speed and LS, which haven't been meaningfully revised in years at this point.
Now, with all of these introductions out of the way, let's get into the meat of this revision. There's a couple of sandboxes ya'll need to read carefully to understand all the proposals. Firstly and most importantly, here's the sandbox that includes all of the proposed changes in profile format. It is obviously required reading before you evaluate this thread in any meaningful way. The second is this sandbox. This one's more of an optional read. It contains all of the relevant information and scans used to concoct this thread, organized in chronological order. If you need yourself a refresher on the relevant events and information we used, you can go ahead and use it to your heart's content.
Now there is some very relevant information you guys still need to know in order to fully grasp this revision, so I'm going to address each relevant point below separately. But keep in mind, I'm not going to add scans to every single thing I claim down there. It'd be too redundant and tedious, since all of it is already in both the sandboxes I linked above. So if you feel like double checking something I said, you'll find it in the sandboxes.
With all that being said, some of the rules of conduct from the previous thread definitely carry over to this one.
THREAD CODE OF CONDUCT:
1) I know some of ya'll will ignore this anyway, but no arguments from incredulity, PLEASE. Either support your argument with scans and evidence or, respectfully, keep it to yourself. I have been working on this with a few close friends for the better part of 3 years at this point, so I urge you to pay respect to all of that hard work by making well-made and reasonable arguments in case you disagree with anything.
2) Read the scaling sandbox CAREFULLY and FULLY before commenting with your thoughts on this thread.
3) This is crucial. Please stay civil and respectful towards each other, and try to avoid derailment as much as possible.
4) Failure to abide by the rules, causing incessant derailment, as well as any other disruptive or disrespectful behavior will result in this thread becoming Staff-Only. Thread mods will NOT hesitate to hand out thread bans if necessary, either. Let's try to get through this smoothly, please.
Finally, I'd like to once again thank THE BOYS (@LordTracer, @Shadowbokunohero, @Arc7Kuroi, @Godernet, and @Wrath_Of_Itachi) for helping out with this thread.
Now then, let's discuss!
I hope ya'll are doing great. This may very well be my fastest thread turnover, EVER. There's a reason for this, though. Firstly, this is the much awaited Top Tiers revision. As many of you may know, it really does not involve that many characters, only 11 to be exact. This had the fortunate effect of this not taking that long to churn out. It's also been in the works for quite a while behind the scenes, so we kinda knew what we were going for right away and the planning process was brief. Perhaps most importantly, we wanted to get this out of the way as quickly as possible so we can focus on more urgent matters like the verse's Speed and LS, which haven't been meaningfully revised in years at this point.
Now, with all of these introductions out of the way, let's get into the meat of this revision. There's a couple of sandboxes ya'll need to read carefully to understand all the proposals. Firstly and most importantly, here's the sandbox that includes all of the proposed changes in profile format. It is obviously required reading before you evaluate this thread in any meaningful way. The second is this sandbox. This one's more of an optional read. It contains all of the relevant information and scans used to concoct this thread, organized in chronological order. If you need yourself a refresher on the relevant events and information we used, you can go ahead and use it to your heart's content.
Now there is some very relevant information you guys still need to know in order to fully grasp this revision, so I'm going to address each relevant point below separately. But keep in mind, I'm not going to add scans to every single thing I claim down there. It'd be too redundant and tedious, since all of it is already in both the sandboxes I linked above. So if you feel like double checking something I said, you'll find it in the sandboxes.
- You're the one who initially scrapped Kurama Sage Mode Naruto and co. scaling anywhere near Juubi tier in this thread, so why the massive change of heart?
That's right, I made that thread a couple of years ago. I still stand by most of what's in it. I still believe that the original justifications that were being used were wrong and quite poorly made. However, it has been literal years since I made the thread, and I've become aware of new and exciting scaling pathways that I was previously unaware of. My knowledge of these subjects has deepened quite significantly since I made the original thread, given that I've read the series dozens of times in that timeframe lol. So yeah, just bear with me as I explain away all your fears and concerns below, hopefully.
- It's already accepted that Senjutsu attacks are a weakness to Juubi Jinchuriki, and essentially negate their durability, so why and how on earth are you scaling BSM Naruto and Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o to half of Juubito each?
Well, that's just it. I'm not really scaling them to Juubito. I'm scaling them above the Juubi. Allow me to explain.
Juubito's TSB shield was able to take 4 charged Juubidamas with zero damage. We know it took all the damage because the blasts were contained entirely within the Crimson Ray Formation, and not allowed to escape, and Obito was pretty much at the epicenter.
Naruto and Sasuke, as well as Naruto and Minato, we able to do more damage to that shield than the aforementioned 4 charged Juubidamas. Now they didn't do a whole lot of damage; however, it was still more than the Juubidamas, and that's where the scaling is coming from. As such, they are scaling to half of that value individually, putting them at 200 Teratons each.
- Okay, that's cool and all, but you're still scaling them to a Juubi Jinchuriki off of Senjutsu attacks, which are their weakness. That's still a no go, right?
Well, not quite. The Juubi Jinchuriki are indeed weak to Senjutsu, that's true. However, that weakness is only for their physiology as Juubi Jins, and does not really carry over to their TSBs. Not only was the correlation between their physical weakness and the TSBs never made, it's just straight-up contradicted. We know for a fact that the TSBs are NOT weak to Senjutsu attacks because Obito pretty much exclusively uses TSB shields to block attacks after getting hit with Sage Naruto's Rasengan and discovering his weakness towards Senjutsu. That's the reason he was overusing that shield almost exclusively. It's also the reason he used the shield against the Juubidamas, since they are also Senjutsu imbued attacks, given the Juubi's nature as an entity comprised of Nature Energy.
The only advantage Senjutsu attacks offer against the TSBs is that they circumvent their Ninjutsu Nullification and Erasure properties, allowing the attacks to interact with them normally. They are not a weakness to the TSBs, though. It should also be noted that Senjutsu users are not physically immune to the TSBs effects either, as they can still be erased and affected by the TSB's hax. This is why the heroes exclusively fought Juubito in their chakra avatars, which would be considered "Jutsu" and thus would be immune to the TSB's abilities. It's important to keep these subtle differences in mind when reviewing the events, because they allow things to make far more sense. It may seem confusing at first, but when all of these separate facts are kept in mind, things just fall nicely into place.
- Uhhhh, why the hell is Kurama scaling to, and even above, the Juubi in certain forms? Isn't the Juubi stated to be stronger than the Bijuu combined? Didn't he also overwhelm Kurama Mode Naruto in his first form alone?
Well, there's a few things you need to keep in mind in order to fully grasp what we're going for here.
Firstly, the statement regarding the Juubi being the amalgamation of all the Bijuu's power, and Kurama standing no chance against him at all, were referring to the prime, full Juubi. Yes, the one that fought Hagoromo and Hamura in ancient times. That statement does not really carry much weight when it comes to the revived Juubi. Kurama himself confirmed this fact when he said that they may stand a chance against this version of the Juubi because its missing the grand majority of Kurama and Gyuki's chakra, who have the most chakra out of all the Bijuu by quite a wide margin.
Secondly, when Kurama and Gyuki were overwhelmed by the Juubi's first form, they were already quite drained from their prolonged battle against Madara and Obito, and were both preeeeetty close to reaching their respective limits, which they do shortly after the Ten Tails is revived. Both Gyuki and Kurama run out of chakra and are forced out of their respective Bijuu Modes, with Kurama stating that he'll start charging up more chakra. So, that performance, which wasn't even that horrible to begin with if you look at the events carefully, really shouldn't be used to limit a potentially more powerful Naruto later on. More on that below.
Finally, the version of Naruto that we're scaling to the Juubi is more than likely stronger than the one that fought the Juubi, and here's why.
When Naruto first gained unrestricted access to Kurama's chakra, their initial link was stated to be imperfect, and that was further illustrated by the fact that their time limit in Kurama Mode was only 5 minutes. As the battle went on, this improved gradually, which was signaled through the time limit being extended to 8 minutes. Kurama also noted Naruto's inferior control over his chakra compared to himself, and said that he'd teach him how to do it later.
This all culminated after Neji's death. Kurama finally fully charged his chakra reserves back up, and Naruto was able to enter Kurama Mode once again. Only this time, he had such perfect control over Kurama's chakra that he was able to successfully transform Kurama's chakra and give it out to thousands of Shinobi. Naruto has mastered Kurama's chakra to the point of being able to sense and transmute Kurama's chakra to be compatible with thousands of individual chakra signatures nearly instantly. This feat obviously shows that, through whatever means, Naruto had finally reached full mastery over Kurama's chakra.
Okay, but what does this have to do with him scaling to Ten Tails? Well, its simple. After the aforementioned turning point, Naruto's Kyuubi cloaks performed some insane feats against the Juubi. These feats include:
Now, to make it abundantly clear, I'm not saying that Naruto/Kurama are necessarily this strong due to the aforementioned turning point/mental amp/chakra control amp/whatever you wanna call it. I'm saying that he has INSANE feats. The fact that these feats only happened after Naruto showed his best control over Kurama's chakra up to that point is simply too convenient to pass up. It simply lines up too well. Why call these blatant feats outliers or illogical PIS inconsistencies when we have an in-story explanation that could make things fit perfectly? I believe this is just too good to pass up. I was of the opinion that the chakra cloak feats simply had no logical way of making sense, but after rereading the War Arc more times than I could count at this point, I came to these conclusions and believe they make sense. They even fit with Naruto's later feats against Juubito. He was amped by Sage Mode, yes, but I really don't think Sage Mode is THAT big of an amp anymore tbh. It's definitely substantial, but I don't think it can take you up several tiers anymore. So all in all, I believe this fits in all of the showings, as well as all the narrative implications that we have to work with.
- The ****? High 6-A Nunoboko? What's that nonsense about?
Uhhh, well, it's a rather simple case of the raws supporting a certain interpretation of that famous statement regarding the Sword of Nunoboko.
Obito states that Hagoromo's sword, the Nunoboko, created the world, and then Obito claims he'll use it to obliterate the world[1]. In the raws, Obito states that he will use the Nunoboko to erase the world[2]. The kanji used, 消す, is the verb for "to erase". Indicating that Obito is going to literally destroy the world. This is likely referring to surface level destruction, 183.24 Petatons. The reason I believe this is due to the prior part of the Nunoboko statement regarding Hagoromo creating the world. I believe this is in reference to Hagoromo having to terraform the surface of the Earth, given we know the Juubi razed the surface of the Earth with numerous Bijuudama[3]. I can make this claim with a high degree of certainty, because bombing the planet, in what is akin to nuclear fallout, would make the Earth simply uninhabitable for humanity and the traditional wildlife. Furthermore, we know Hagoromo was born on the planet Earth, meaning the planet existed before Hagoromo. Therefore, Hagoromo couldn't have created the literal planet itself. This leaves the most likely interpretation of "Hagoromo creating the world with Nunoboko" to be terraforming the surface in order to make the planet hospitable again, or in other words, undoing a surface level destruction of Earth. In which case, if the sword can restore surface level destruction, it is consistent for Obito's statement about erasing the world to be in reference to enacting surface level destruction upon the planet. Thus, Juubi Jinchuriki Obito should be High 6-A with the Nunoboko.
This argument and translation comes to you courtesy of the lovely @Arc7Kuroi.
That's right, I made that thread a couple of years ago. I still stand by most of what's in it. I still believe that the original justifications that were being used were wrong and quite poorly made. However, it has been literal years since I made the thread, and I've become aware of new and exciting scaling pathways that I was previously unaware of. My knowledge of these subjects has deepened quite significantly since I made the original thread, given that I've read the series dozens of times in that timeframe lol. So yeah, just bear with me as I explain away all your fears and concerns below, hopefully.
- It's already accepted that Senjutsu attacks are a weakness to Juubi Jinchuriki, and essentially negate their durability, so why and how on earth are you scaling BSM Naruto and Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o to half of Juubito each?
Well, that's just it. I'm not really scaling them to Juubito. I'm scaling them above the Juubi. Allow me to explain.
Juubito's TSB shield was able to take 4 charged Juubidamas with zero damage. We know it took all the damage because the blasts were contained entirely within the Crimson Ray Formation, and not allowed to escape, and Obito was pretty much at the epicenter.
Naruto and Sasuke, as well as Naruto and Minato, we able to do more damage to that shield than the aforementioned 4 charged Juubidamas. Now they didn't do a whole lot of damage; however, it was still more than the Juubidamas, and that's where the scaling is coming from. As such, they are scaling to half of that value individually, putting them at 200 Teratons each.
- Okay, that's cool and all, but you're still scaling them to a Juubi Jinchuriki off of Senjutsu attacks, which are their weakness. That's still a no go, right?
Well, not quite. The Juubi Jinchuriki are indeed weak to Senjutsu, that's true. However, that weakness is only for their physiology as Juubi Jins, and does not really carry over to their TSBs. Not only was the correlation between their physical weakness and the TSBs never made, it's just straight-up contradicted. We know for a fact that the TSBs are NOT weak to Senjutsu attacks because Obito pretty much exclusively uses TSB shields to block attacks after getting hit with Sage Naruto's Rasengan and discovering his weakness towards Senjutsu. That's the reason he was overusing that shield almost exclusively. It's also the reason he used the shield against the Juubidamas, since they are also Senjutsu imbued attacks, given the Juubi's nature as an entity comprised of Nature Energy.
The only advantage Senjutsu attacks offer against the TSBs is that they circumvent their Ninjutsu Nullification and Erasure properties, allowing the attacks to interact with them normally. They are not a weakness to the TSBs, though. It should also be noted that Senjutsu users are not physically immune to the TSBs effects either, as they can still be erased and affected by the TSB's hax. This is why the heroes exclusively fought Juubito in their chakra avatars, which would be considered "Jutsu" and thus would be immune to the TSB's abilities. It's important to keep these subtle differences in mind when reviewing the events, because they allow things to make far more sense. It may seem confusing at first, but when all of these separate facts are kept in mind, things just fall nicely into place.
- Uhhhh, why the hell is Kurama scaling to, and even above, the Juubi in certain forms? Isn't the Juubi stated to be stronger than the Bijuu combined? Didn't he also overwhelm Kurama Mode Naruto in his first form alone?
Well, there's a few things you need to keep in mind in order to fully grasp what we're going for here.
Firstly, the statement regarding the Juubi being the amalgamation of all the Bijuu's power, and Kurama standing no chance against him at all, were referring to the prime, full Juubi. Yes, the one that fought Hagoromo and Hamura in ancient times. That statement does not really carry much weight when it comes to the revived Juubi. Kurama himself confirmed this fact when he said that they may stand a chance against this version of the Juubi because its missing the grand majority of Kurama and Gyuki's chakra, who have the most chakra out of all the Bijuu by quite a wide margin.
Secondly, when Kurama and Gyuki were overwhelmed by the Juubi's first form, they were already quite drained from their prolonged battle against Madara and Obito, and were both preeeeetty close to reaching their respective limits, which they do shortly after the Ten Tails is revived. Both Gyuki and Kurama run out of chakra and are forced out of their respective Bijuu Modes, with Kurama stating that he'll start charging up more chakra. So, that performance, which wasn't even that horrible to begin with if you look at the events carefully, really shouldn't be used to limit a potentially more powerful Naruto later on. More on that below.
Finally, the version of Naruto that we're scaling to the Juubi is more than likely stronger than the one that fought the Juubi, and here's why.
When Naruto first gained unrestricted access to Kurama's chakra, their initial link was stated to be imperfect, and that was further illustrated by the fact that their time limit in Kurama Mode was only 5 minutes. As the battle went on, this improved gradually, which was signaled through the time limit being extended to 8 minutes. Kurama also noted Naruto's inferior control over his chakra compared to himself, and said that he'd teach him how to do it later.
This all culminated after Neji's death. Kurama finally fully charged his chakra reserves back up, and Naruto was able to enter Kurama Mode once again. Only this time, he had such perfect control over Kurama's chakra that he was able to successfully transform Kurama's chakra and give it out to thousands of Shinobi. Naruto has mastered Kurama's chakra to the point of being able to sense and transmute Kurama's chakra to be compatible with thousands of individual chakra signatures nearly instantly. This feat obviously shows that, through whatever means, Naruto had finally reached full mastery over Kurama's chakra.
Okay, but what does this have to do with him scaling to Ten Tails? Well, its simple. After the aforementioned turning point, Naruto's Kyuubi cloaks performed some insane feats against the Juubi. These feats include:
- Hinata's abilities being enhanced to the point of her being capable of pushing back 2nd Form Juubi's arm with a simple Air Palm.
- The cloak also allowed Giant Akimichi clansmen to hold down the Juubi's arms. It should be noted that even Butterfly Choji was previously overpowered by the Gedo Statue, let alone the Juubi.
- It also allowed 5 Nara clansmen to use their Shadow Paralysis in order to immobilize the Juubi.
- Kitsuchi's Mountain Jutsu was able to hold down the Juubi after being enhanced by Kurama's chakra as well.
- Kakashi stated that the cloaks were much stronger than the small chakra handout Kurama gave him earlier, which had already enhanced his abilities by more than 3 times.
- The attacks of the Cloaked Shinobi Alliance were capable of repelling the Juubi's arms.
- Cloaked Lee was able to easily kick right through Madara with zero resistance.
- Even while weakened and extremely low on chakra due to his prolonged battle against the Juubi, Madara, and Obito, Naruto was still able to protect the alliance from Madara and Obito's attacks, as well as the Juubi's Tenpechii.
- Finally, and most importantly, when all of Kurama's disseminated chakra came together, it was capable of easily slicing through the Jūbi's legs.
Now, to make it abundantly clear, I'm not saying that Naruto/Kurama are necessarily this strong due to the aforementioned turning point/mental amp/chakra control amp/whatever you wanna call it. I'm saying that he has INSANE feats. The fact that these feats only happened after Naruto showed his best control over Kurama's chakra up to that point is simply too convenient to pass up. It simply lines up too well. Why call these blatant feats outliers or illogical PIS inconsistencies when we have an in-story explanation that could make things fit perfectly? I believe this is just too good to pass up. I was of the opinion that the chakra cloak feats simply had no logical way of making sense, but after rereading the War Arc more times than I could count at this point, I came to these conclusions and believe they make sense. They even fit with Naruto's later feats against Juubito. He was amped by Sage Mode, yes, but I really don't think Sage Mode is THAT big of an amp anymore tbh. It's definitely substantial, but I don't think it can take you up several tiers anymore. So all in all, I believe this fits in all of the showings, as well as all the narrative implications that we have to work with.
- The ****? High 6-A Nunoboko? What's that nonsense about?
Uhhh, well, it's a rather simple case of the raws supporting a certain interpretation of that famous statement regarding the Sword of Nunoboko.
Obito states that Hagoromo's sword, the Nunoboko, created the world, and then Obito claims he'll use it to obliterate the world[1]. In the raws, Obito states that he will use the Nunoboko to erase the world[2]. The kanji used, 消す, is the verb for "to erase". Indicating that Obito is going to literally destroy the world. This is likely referring to surface level destruction, 183.24 Petatons. The reason I believe this is due to the prior part of the Nunoboko statement regarding Hagoromo creating the world. I believe this is in reference to Hagoromo having to terraform the surface of the Earth, given we know the Juubi razed the surface of the Earth with numerous Bijuudama[3]. I can make this claim with a high degree of certainty, because bombing the planet, in what is akin to nuclear fallout, would make the Earth simply uninhabitable for humanity and the traditional wildlife. Furthermore, we know Hagoromo was born on the planet Earth, meaning the planet existed before Hagoromo. Therefore, Hagoromo couldn't have created the literal planet itself. This leaves the most likely interpretation of "Hagoromo creating the world with Nunoboko" to be terraforming the surface in order to make the planet hospitable again, or in other words, undoing a surface level destruction of Earth. In which case, if the sword can restore surface level destruction, it is consistent for Obito's statement about erasing the world to be in reference to enacting surface level destruction upon the planet. Thus, Juubi Jinchuriki Obito should be High 6-A with the Nunoboko.
This argument and translation comes to you courtesy of the lovely @Arc7Kuroi.
With all that being said, some of the rules of conduct from the previous thread definitely carry over to this one.
THREAD CODE OF CONDUCT:
1) I know some of ya'll will ignore this anyway, but no arguments from incredulity, PLEASE. Either support your argument with scans and evidence or, respectfully, keep it to yourself. I have been working on this with a few close friends for the better part of 3 years at this point, so I urge you to pay respect to all of that hard work by making well-made and reasonable arguments in case you disagree with anything.
2) Read the scaling sandbox CAREFULLY and FULLY before commenting with your thoughts on this thread.
3) This is crucial. Please stay civil and respectful towards each other, and try to avoid derailment as much as possible.
4) Failure to abide by the rules, causing incessant derailment, as well as any other disruptive or disrespectful behavior will result in this thread becoming Staff-Only. Thread mods will NOT hesitate to hand out thread bans if necessary, either. Let's try to get through this smoothly, please.
Finally, I'd like to once again thank THE BOYS (@LordTracer, @Shadowbokunohero, @Arc7Kuroi, @Godernet, and @Wrath_Of_Itachi) for helping out with this thread.
Now then, let's discuss!
