Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Comicgyal]

Where was it stated she was creating a new space-time? Creating an "origin of the universe" doesn't automatically make it 2-C nor can it be assumed that time itself was included in the creation of the sphere. This Jubileus is weaker than the one who would merge the Trinity of Realities so why would she be assumed to be creating a 2-C sized dimension?

In general you cannot divide space and time from one another, however you can assume these dimensions operate under different time flows because they exist outside of the TOR. Kamiya stated that the universes are made to give the depiction of heaven and earth being created, since there’s an ice universe, lava, wind, etc. Meaning time would have passed for this creation to occur, so her sphere and the universes have to abide by some sort of time flow naturally.

Where was Muspelheim stated to be a universe? Where was it stated to have it's own space-time? And where was it stated that it has 22 universes inside it? None of this is in the CRT or past CRTs so an explanation and links would help.

Muspelheim is its own universal space time not only due to its appearance, that being dimensions full of stars, galaxies, and a sun. But it’s quote says that it operates under a different time flow as well:

“I can't reveal who my source is, but according to them, there is a gateway that leads to a primordial world cut off from the flow of time--a place called Muspelheim. The place is full of demons, angels, witches, and sages, who spend their days pursuing nothing other than battle.”

You may say that is too vague, but remind yourself that Muspelheim is not included in the trinity. Kamiya shows us a diagram of how the trinity is structured. Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world are layered on top of each other. Muspelheim and Purgatorio are not included in this structure, but still have time flows themselves. They not only operate under separate time, but are still apart of Bayonettas multiverse. They just aren’t layered like the others.

Which is consistent. Diagrams of the trinity shows us that they’re connected, but Purgatorio is not. It is a parallel reality of the human world, but is not included in the trinities structure. Though it operates under a time flow still, albeit different from the trinity. So Muspelheim isn’t the only universe like it.

There are 22 ingame layers / universes inside of Muspelheim, which is why I said 22. Hope that clears your questions up.

 

[Comicgyal]

Also, why would the 2-C merging include Muspelheim when that is actually not a part of the ToR and is its own dimension?

Because it is still a dimension that exists inside of the Bayonetta multiverse, much like Purgatorio which also isn’t apart of the ToR but is in the multiverse itself.

 

[Dienomite22]

In general you cannot divide space and time from one another, however you can assume these dimensions operate under different time flows because they exist outside of the TOR. Kamiya stated that the universes are made to give the depiction of heaven and earth being created, since there’s an ice universe, lava, wind, etc. Meaning time would have passed for this creation to occur, so her sphere and the universes have to abide by some sort of time flow naturally.

You cannot divide space and time but multiple universes can share the same Time (Just like the TOR themselves). There are no reasons to assume the dimensions Jubileus operate outside of the TOR based on the evidence provided. This weakened Jubileus is more than likely creating universes within the TOR's space-time rather than conjuring up an entirely new one which would be a feat that is superior to what Jubileus in her prime would do.

Muspelheim is its own universal space time not only due to its appearance, that being dimensions full of stars, galaxies, and a sun. But it’s quote says that it operates under a different time flow as well:

“I can't reveal who my source is, but according to them, there is a gateway that leads to a primordial world cut off from the flow of time--a place called Muspelheim. The place is full of demons, angels, witches, and sages, who spend their days pursuing nothing other than battle.”

You may say that is too vague, but remind yourself that Muspelheim is not included in the trinity. Kamiya shows us a diagram of how the trinity is structured. Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world are layered on top of each other. Muspelheim and Purgatorio are not included in this structure, but still have time flows themselves. They not only operate under separate time, but are still apart of Bayonettas multiverse. They just aren’t layered like the others.

Which is consistent. Diagrams of the trinity shows us that they’re connected, but Purgatorio is not. It is a parallel reality of the human world, but is not included in the trinities structure. Though it operates under a time flow still, albeit different from the trinity. So Muspelheim isn’t the only universe like it.

There are 22 ingame layers / universes inside of Muspelheim, which is why I said 22. Hope that clears your questions up.

That is not enough evidence to conclude that Muspelheim is its own space-time universe with 22 universes within it.

Cut off from the flow of time =/= has its own flow of time or space-time and the former can apply to any sized pocket dimension, non just universe so that wouldn't be evidence for universe sized dimension either. A dimension cut off from time that has a multi-galaxy-sized appearance would be assumed to be 3-B at most unless definitive statements/descriptions indicated otherwise. Not being a part of the Trinity structure diagrams is also not evidence of the dimension being universal in size.

The 22 layers thing is definitely not enough to conclude that 22 universes exist within it either. Much much more evidence is need for a claim that large.

Because it is still a dimension that exists inside of the Bayonetta multiverse, much like Purgatorio which also isn’t apart of the ToR but is in the multiverse itself.

But Purgatorio is a part of the TOR. It's the dimension used to traverse the TOR. Purgatorio isn't anything like Muspelheim.

Purgatorio, Center Of The Trinity​

"One of the unique aspects of the religion in this town is the people's belief that the world is actually made up of three unique realms layered on top of each other – Human World, Inferno, and Paradiso – the Trinity of Realities.

However, the wavelengths of the Spirit Energy in each of these realities is different, and inhabitants of each are unable to interfere with the other's affairs, despite the fact that the worlds are layered. It's said that Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches had the unique ability to pass into a realm known as Purgatorio, and travel amongst the Trinity. It is believed that the witches and sages each made contracts with the masters of the light and dark worlds, and can use special abilities granted to them by their masters."

 

[Comicgyal]

You cannot divide space and time but multiple universes can share the same Time (Just like the TOR themselves). There are no reasons to assume the dimensions Jubileus operate outside of the TOR based on the evidence provided. This weakened Jubileus is more than likely creating universes within the TOR's space-time rather than conjuring up an entirely new one which would be a feat that is superior to what Jubileus in her prime would do.

Yes that’s true, but as I showed you in the diagram the universes are literally structured together. Because her origin does not exist or abide by that structure, since there’s an inherent balance that governs the three, her universes do not have the same space time as the trinity. This feat isn’t superior to prime jubileus, it’s quite literally the same feat but on a lesser scale because she was weakened. Prime Jubileus herself didn’t even exist inside of the origin she was creating.

That is not enough evidence to conclude that Muspelheim is its own space-time universe with 22 universes within it.

Cut off from the flow of time =/= has its own flow of time or space-time and the former can apply to any sized pocket dimension, non just universe so that wouldn't be evidence for universe sized dimension either. A dimension cut off from time that has a multi-galaxy-sized appearance would be assumed to be 3-B at most unless definitive statements/descriptions indicated otherwise. Not being a part of the Trinity structure diagrams is also not evidence of the dimension being universal in size.

The 22 layers thing is definitely not enough to conclude that 22 universes exist within it either. Much much more evidence is need for a claim that large.

How doesn’t it? As I said before it doesn’t exist in the Trinity’s shared space time, meaning that it operates under its own. That is a fact. Not being apart of the diagrams structure means that it is separate from their time flow, and has its own. Time passes there like how the description says:

“This limitless world disregards the wounds and deaths of yesterday, always breathing life into its warriors so that they may live to fight another day.”

Yesterday, another day, meaning time flows there. Because it is not in the trinity’s structural timeflow, it has an entirely separate one. It all goes together.

What other evidence is needed? There are portals that show you traverse deeper into Muspelheim, and the environment visibly changes as you delve deeper. There are most definitely layers to it, and 22 confirmed ones we travel to.

But Purgatorio is a part of the TOR. It's the dimension used to traverse the TOR. Purgatorio isn't anything like Muspelheim.

Purgatorio is in the center of the trinity, but is not apart of the structure itself. Purgatorio allows witches and sages to travel through the trinity yes, because it is a parallel reality, and closely resembles the world of chaos. However this only applies to chaos, as there’s no other time where a witch or Sage enters purgatorio inside of inferno or paradiso.

“To further explain Purgatorio, one must understand that those within the realm are unable to see or touch those in the human world, nor are humans in their own world able to intervene in the affairs of Purgatorio.”

They can’t even affect the human world chaos directly, despite it being a parallel reality to it. Not the same as Muspelheim sure, but still not apart of the trinity itself.

 

[Dienomite22]

Yes that’s true, but as I showed you in the diagram the universes are literally structured together. Because her origin does not exist or abide by that structure, since there’s an inherent balance that governs the three, her universes do not have the same space time as the trinity. This feat isn’t superior to prime jubileus, it’s quite literally the same feat but on a lesser scale because she was weakened. Prime Jubileus herself didn’t even exist inside of the origin she was creating.

Yes, the universes are structured together but that isn't exactly relevant here. Jubileus having 1 of the eyes would throw off the balance of the TOR already if that were the case, which would make creating more universes within it possible (but I think the unbalance = armageddon thing wasn't really a thing until two). No, it is because it's creating a 2-C structure out of nothing rather than merging an already established 2-C space-time multi-verse which is what full powered Jubileus is supposed to do.

How doesn’t it? As I said before it doesn’t exist in the Trinity’s shared space time, meaning that it operates under its own. That is a fact. Not being apart of the diagrams structure means that it is separate from their time flow, and has its own. Time passes there like how the description says:

“This limitless world disregards the wounds and deaths of yesterday, always breathing life into its warriors so that they may live to fight another day.”

Yesterday, another day, meaning time flows there. Because it is not in the trinity’s structural timeflow, it has an entirely separate one. It all goes together.

What other evidence is needed? There are portals that show you traverse deeper into Muspelheim, and the environment visibly changes as you delve deeper. There are most definitely layers to it, and 22 confirmed ones we travel to.

On this wiki, dimensions being outside of the time (or space-time) of an established universe/multiverse doesn't make the dimension a universe with its own space-time. We have no evidence that it has its own time flow, it's just stated to be cut off from the flow of time which can also explain the wounds/deaths of yesterday thing. Layers don't automatically mean universe without hard evidence such as an actual statement calling them such as they can easily just be explained away as being another area within Musepelheim.

Purgatorio is in the center of the trinity, but is not apart of the structure itself. Purgatorio allows witches and sages to travel through the trinity yes, because it is a parallel reality, and closely resembles the world of chaos. However this only applies to chaos, as there’s no other time where a witch or Sage enters purgatorio inside of inferno or paradiso.

“To further explain Purgatorio, one must understand that those within the realm are unable to see or touch those in the human world, nor are humans in their own world able to intervene in the affairs of Purgatorio.”

They can’t even affect the human world chaos directly, despite it being a parallel reality to it. Not the same as Muspelheim sure, but still not apart of the trinity itself.

No, Purgatorio is very well a part of the Trinity, just not in the way the 3 realities are a part of it. There is a reason why it's called the Center of the Trinity and that's because it's a realm between the TOR that allows travel between the three main universes.

A Witch's Brew​

"..in case of emergency, the witches placed these materials within Purgatorio, a realm caught in-between the Trinity of Realities, in which the items are said to still remain."

Balance​

"...There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms, sometimes causing chaos and confusion."

It should be impossible for Bayonetta to touch Antonio, Antonio to smell Bayonetta while Bayonetta is in Purgatorio if Purgatorio isn't a part of the TOR and it should be impossible for angels to destroy things in Chaos from Purgatorio if it is not a part of the TORs.

Purgatorio, Center Of The Trinity​

"However, the wavelengths of the Spirit Energy in each of these realities is different, and inhabitants of each are unable to interfere with the other's affairs, despite the fact that the worlds are layered. It's said that Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches had the unique ability to pass into a realm known as Purgatorio, and travel amongst the Trinity. It is believed that the witches and sages each made contracts with the masters of the light and dark worlds, and can use special abilities granted to them by their masters."

.....

"...Moreover, what we identify as material objects may have different appearances in the different realities. Yet, when these items are destroyed in one world, they will be destroyed in all worlds. This may explain why many place religious interpretations upon the phenomenon of unexplained destruction that occurs during their everyday lives". - Antonio Redgrave

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, the universes are structured together but that isn't exactly relevant here. Jubileus having 1 of the eyes would throw off the balance of the TOR already if that were the case, which would make creating more universes within it possible (but I think the unbalance = armageddon thing wasn't really a thing until two). No, it is because it's creating a 2-C structure out of nothing rather than merging an already established 2-C space-time multi-verse which is what full powered Jubileus is supposed to do.

no, because as I said full powered jubileus without the eyes was doing the same thing. With the eyes they wanted her to merge the multiverse, but even before that she was creating the same origin. No difference aside from full powered jubileus scaling higher for obvious reasons.

On this wiki, dimensions being outside of the time (or space-time) of an established universe/multiverse doesn't make the dimension a universe with its own space-time. We have no evidence that it has its own time flow, it's just stated to be cut off from the flow of time which can also explain the wounds/deaths of yesterday thing. Layers don't automatically mean universe without hard evidence such as an actual statement calling them such as they can easily just be explained away as being another area within Musepelheim.

But why ignore the evidence I gave above? Each layer have the characteristics of a regular 3-B space, and then with its separate space cut off from time it makes these spaces universes. In Bayonetta the dimensions are usually universes, and are typically layered just as shown in the diagram. I don’t see any difference. I’ll have to look at the separate space time standards for vs battle again as well, but I mean if it isn’t bound by the regular space time, and operates by its own, I don’t see why it doesn’t have a different timeflow.

honestly I don’t get the logic being applied. The main three realities are universes that go by one timeflow, Muspelheim exists outside of it, and has no flow of time. Though time still passes there meaning Muspelheim is not the same time as Paradiso or other realities.

No, Purgatorio is very well a part of the Trinity, just not in the way the 3 realities are a part of it. There is a reason why it's called the Center of the Trinity and that's because it's a realm between the TOR that allows travel between the three main universes.




It should be impossible for Bayonetta to touch Antonio, Antonio to smell Bayonetta while Bayonetta is in Purgatorio if Purgatorio isn't a part of the TOR and it should be impossible for angels to destroy things in Chaos from Purgatorio if it is not a part of the TORs.

That’s not true, Antonio can smell Bayonetta because purgatory is closely layered to their universe. Also Bayonetta can’t touch Bayonetta physically, she only ever touched him with lip gloss. Also what is destroyed in one reality is destroyed in every other, sure, but that doesn’t mean that purgatorio is apart of the trinity because it follows the same logic. As it’s own description says, it’s closely related to the human world chaos, but is not apart of the trinity’s structure.

 

[Dienomite22]

no, because as I said full powered jubileus without the eyes was doing the same thing. With the eyes they wanted her to merge the multiverse, but even before that she was creating the same origin. No difference aside from full powered jubileus scaling higher for obvious reasons.

When did full-powered Jubileus create a 2-C multi-verse? Jubileus without the eyes supposed to be weaker than with the eyes. If she can casually create a 2-C multi-verse without the eyes she would be capable of merging the TOR with or without the eyes. But regardless this point is sorta irrelevant to determining if the "origin of the universe" is a seperate space-time multi-verse not within the TOR.

But why ignore the evidence I gave above? Each layer have the characteristics of a regular 3-B space, and then with its separate space cut off from time it makes these spaces universes. In Bayonetta the dimensions are usually universes, and are typically layered just as shown in the diagram. I don’t see any difference. I’ll have to look at the separate space time standards for vs battle again as well, but I mean if it isn’t bound by the regular space time, and operates by its own, I don’t see why it doesn’t have a different timeflow.

honestly I don’t get the logic being applied. The main three realities are universes that go by one timeflow, Muspelheim exists outside of it, and has no flow of time. Though time still passes there meaning Muspelheim is not the same time as Paradiso or other realities.

I'm not ignoring the evidence, I'm saying that the evidence isn't enough to consider Muspelheim a universe with 22 other universes on this wiki. You pretty much need direct no bs statements for this sort of thing, not interpretations. I would ask the staff about it.

Time flow (or lack of a time flow) is irrelevant if the size of the dimension has no confirmation of being the size of a universe or beyond.

That’s not true, Antonio can smell Bayonetta because purgatory is closely layered to their universe. Also Bayonetta can’t touch Bayonetta physically, she only ever touched him with lip gloss. Also what is destroyed in one reality is destroyed in every other, sure, but that doesn’t mean that purgatorio is apart of the trinity because it follows the same logic. As it’s own description says, it’s closely related to the human world chaos, but is not apart of the trinity’s structure.

Bayonetta did touch Luka while she was in Purgatorio, she slapped his shoulder and tripped him with her body. Bayonetta and Angels also interacted with objects within Chaos while in Purgatorio. This is impossible if it isn't apart of the TOR no matter how you slice it. There is a reason it's called the "realm between realms" and "a realm between realities" and the "Center of the Trinity". I'm sorry but we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yeah no, angels/demons/humans in Purgatorio are blatantly shown to directly effect those in the Chaos realm several times. Bayo teasing Luka, Antonio's murder, Luka's attempted murder with the Angels pulling his limbs, etc. Unless there's a direct statement saying otherwise, I'm willing to bet Purgatorio is a part of the Trinity.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal Your blog copied and pasted the reasoning on Aesir's profile, which again is not the 2-C argument, it's the two timeline split argument.

She got experience from the future, something Kamiya himself flat out said and is what caused the timeline split, making her not sealed by Jeanne.

Those aren't different space times, you have not given any scans that these are separate space time universes, especially when like 2 of these dimensions aren't large like the wind dimension Kamiya said was a universe.

That didn't answer my question, where is the scan or text that remotely describes Possibilities as worlds/universes? There's nothing in your blog that proves possibilities and worlds are used interchangeably in this series. The text you quote literally says world not worlds, that's a massive difference here and it doesn't prove him creating infinite universes here.

Yes, erase anything from the world. At best that's a universal feat for Aesir's power, and ignoring the fact it's basically void manipulation/power nullification since the eyes were gone, that's not concrete evidence of erasing literal universes.

Also why are you referencing Muselpheim as an argument when that's NOT a part of the trinity of realities? Where is there any statements of Muselpheim being part of the merged realms?

 

[Comicgyal]

When did full-powered Jubileus create a 2-C multi-verse? Jubileus without the eyes supposed to be weaker than with the eyes. If she can casually create a 2-C multi-verse without the eyes she would be capable of merging the TOR with or without the eyes. But regardless this point is sorta irrelevant to determining if the "origin of the universe" is a seperate space-time multi-verse not within the TOR.

It’s in the blog. But the multiverse jubileus was creating in the story, was the one she created before the current multiverse was established. Jubes isn’t “stronger” with the eyes, it’s the only thing close enough to bring her to her original power. Also she wasn’t resurrected properly. So even if she had both eyes, she would still not be as strong as her prime.

I'm not ignoring the evidence, I'm saying that the evidence isn't enough to consider Muspelheim a universe with 22 other universes on this wiki. You pretty much need direct no bs statements for this sort of thing, not interpretations. I would ask the staff about it.

Time flow (or lack of a time flow) is irrelevant if the size of the dimension has no confirmation of being the size of a universe or beyond.


Bayonetta did touch Luka while she was in Purgatorio, she slapped his shoulder and tripped him with her body. Bayonetta and Angels also interacted with objects within Chaos while in Purgatorio. This is impossible if it isn't apart of the TOR no matter how you slice it. There is a reason it's called the "realm between realms" and "a realm between realities" and the "Center of the Trinity". I'm sorry but we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Muspelheim itself is called a primordial world, just like all the other realities. Since world is synonymous with universe in Bayonetta, Muspelheim itself is a universe. As for everything else, yeah agree to disagree. In Bayonetta 2 and 1 there are instances where Bayonetta cannot interact with humans inside purgatorio, might be a game inconsistency.

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal Your blog copied and pasted the reasoning on Aesir's profile, which again is not the 2-C argument, it's the two timeline split argument.

She got experience from the future, something Kamiya himself flat out said and is what caused the timeline split, making her not sealed by Jeanne.

Those aren't different space times, you have not given any scans that these are separate space time universes, especially when like 2 of these dimensions aren't large like the wind dimension Kamiya said was a universe.

That didn't answer my question, where is the scan or text that remotely describes Possibilities as worlds/universes? There's nothing in your blog that proves possibilities and worlds are used interchangeably in this series. The text you quote literally says world not worlds, that's a massive difference here and it doesn't prove him creating infinite universes here.

Yes, erase anything from the world. At best that's a universal feat for Aesir's power, and ignoring the fact it's basically void manipulation/power nullification since the eyes were gone, that's not concrete evidence of erasing literal universes.

Also why are you referencing Muselpheim as an argument when that's NOT a part of the trinity of realities? Where is there any statements of Muselpheim being part of the merged realms?

1. I again am not using Aesir for 2-C, he’s literally in the 2-A section

2. I know that’s what made the other timeline, what will merge them are the eyes

3. Time flows there, and it’s not within the Trinity’s structural time flow. Meaning they are separate space times from the main universe. I guess, I don’t really know what you’re referencing since you didn’t bother to quote my response to you

4. In the blog I explained my reasoning why they can be interchangeable, and provided quote evidence relating to it. I’ve repeated it multiple times already.

5. It’s existence erasure. World is often used in the plural sense in Bayonetta as well. It’s not just “world” singular, since erasing the eyes in one timeline would erase them in every other.

6. My entire argument is that Muspelheim is NOT apart of the trinity, if you’re busy and can’t read everything thoroughly then stop responding for the moment. What I’m saying is that Muspelheim is in Bayonettas multiverse, and would be included in the merging itself, since the merging results in the destruction of everything.

 

[Dienomite22]

It’s in the blog. But the multiverse jubileus was creating in the story, was the one she created before the current multiverse was established. Jubes isn’t “stronger” with the eyes, it’s the only thing close enough to bring her to her original power. Also she wasn’t resurrected properly. So even if she had both eyes, she would still not be as strong as her prime.

Full-powered Jubileus didn't create the original Bayonetta universe nor the current TOR universe. We don't know who created the original universe of Bayonetta and what caused the TOR to be created. Weakened Jubileus and Jubileus with the eyes are the only versions with feats while the former only has a 3-A feat and the latter a 2-C feat with both eyes.

Muspelheim itself is called a primordial world, just like all the other realities. Since world is synonymous with universe in Bayonetta, Muspelheim itself is a universe. As for everything else, yeah agree to disagree. In Bayonetta 2 and 1 there are instances where Bayonetta cannot interact with humans inside purgatorio, might be a game inconsistency.

That...is not how things work on the wiki. Just because something is called a "world" doesn't mean it's a universe because "world" was used synonymously with actual universes in the cosmology. And there is still no reason to assume Muspelheim is a part of any merging done by either the Eyes or just Jubileus.

 

[Comicgyal]

Full-powered Jubileus didn't create the original Bayonetta universe nor the current TOR universe. We don't know who created the original universe of Bayonetta and what caused the TOR to be created. Weakened Jubileus and Jubileus with the eyes are the only versions with feats while the former only has a 3-A feat and the latter a 2-C feat with both eyes.

That...is not how things work on the wiki. Just because something is called a "world" doesn't mean it's a universe because "world" was used synonymously with actual universes in the cosmology. And there is still no reason to assume Muspelheim is a part of any merging done by either the Eyes or just Jubileus.

The orb next to her, is the same origin of the universe in Bayonetta 1. Same design, same circle, same feat but to a higher scale.

World is used for universe in Bayonetta, because they refer to universes as worlds. That’s their terminology, nothing to do with the wiki. As I’ve showed before, they use the word “World” when describing the human universe as well.

Muspelheim would be included, because Iya merging everything in their multiverse. As kamiya said, the merging would result in another Armageddon which is the destruction of everything.

 

[Dienomite22]

The orb next to her, is the same origin of the universe in Bayonetta 1. Same design, same circle, same feat but to a higher scale.

World is used for universe in Bayonetta, because they refer to universes as worlds. That’s their terminology, nothing to do with the wiki. As I’ve showed before, they use the word “World” when describing the human universe as well.

Muspelheim would be included, because Iya merging everything in their multiverse. As kamiya said, the merging would result in another Armageddon which is the destruction of everything.

Yes, I know but how is that relevant? You are just showing me the same thing, not full-powered Jubileus creating a 2-C multi-verse.

You need to prove that the "world" used for Muspelheim means universe in the original Japanese. Once again, basically a direct statement. Wiki's standard.

Why would a dimension outside of time and, according to you, outside the TOR be affected by a merging of the TOR?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

When you 2 are done I will continue my rant so the OP doesn't have to bother defending 2 arguments at once

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, I know but how is that relevant? You are just showing me the same thing, not full-powered Jubileus creating a 2-C multi-verse.

You need to prove that the "world" used for Muspelheim means universe in the original Japanese. Once again, basically a direct statement. Wiki's standard.

Why would a dimension outside of time and, according to you outside, the TOR be affected by a merging of the TOR?

Because it’s the same multiverse?? I don’t understand what you don’t get, the multiverse that weakened jubileus is the same one that full powered jubileus created. Which was also the foundation for the current multiverse.

What do you mean by original Japanese? Muspelheim being a universe really isn’t controversial, it uses the same definitions as all other universes.

“Have you ever heard of gates that connect worlds?”

Worlds plural, multiple universes.

“The gate that connects the three worlds and makes the foundation of our own is relatively well known, so if you're reading this, I'll just go ahead and assume you know of it; however, there are stories of doors that lead to the secret lairs of the supernatural, and I've got a great source of information I need to bring things to light.”

Connects the three worlds, which are universes. So world = universe in Bayonetta lore.

“I can't reveal who my source is, but according to them, there is a gateway that leads to a primordial world cut off from the flow of time--a place called Muspelheim.”

World used again in reference to a universe, use of the world primordial meaning: existing at or from the beginning of time; primeval.

A universe that existed from the beginning of time, very simple and easy logic.

The merging of the trinity encompasses their entire multiverse, since Kamiya explains that merging the trinity will result in Armageddon. Which is:


a dramatic and catastrophic conflict, typically seen as likely to destroy the world or the human race.

• a biblical hill of Megiddo, an archaeological site on the plain of Esdraelon, south of present-day Haifa in Israel.
• the place where the last battle between good and evil will be fought.
  
  In the context of Bayonetta, the first definition which is the destruction of everything is the most reliable.
  

 

[Arceus0x]

how deep into 2-C?

 

[Theglassman12]

“Possibly Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Queen Sheba and Jubileus at full power, who was stated to be able to reunite the Trinity of Realities with the power of the Eyes of the World)"

This is blatantly copied and pasted from Aesir’s page, so yes you are you using Aesir for the 2-C stuff.

that’s not even proven. again give me blatant scans that they are going to be merged, if not then they’re still keeping the 3-A key.

That’s not even stated where the hell did you get that claim? You’re trying to say she made 4 separate space time universes when you HAVE NOT given proof they are separate space time universes. Give me scans that they are separate space times instead of assumptions and then we’ll get somewhere.

Quote where did you say that possibilities and worlds are used interchangeably.

when was that ever proven that erasing the eyes in one timeline would affect the eyes in all timeline? And even then what does that have anything to do with 2-A?

Stop saying that things “would” or “should” happen without scans, give me proof that merging would include Muselpheim and then we might be getting somewhere, if there’s no mention that Musepheim is affected in the merging then the argument isn’t going anywhere here.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yeah, I find myself agreeing with the arguments against weakened Jubileus being 2-C. I'm not really sure how anything in the blog shows Weakened Jubileus' sphere being 2-C. The entire reason why full power Jubileus is 2-C is because of that alternate timeline. Based on the scans shown in the blog, Kamiya is just saying the sphere is the origin of universe that Jubileus is trying to create (The universe pre-First Armageddon), which is just a 3-A, maaaaybe Low 2-C feat.

I disagree with 2-C for weakened Jubileus and I'm neutral on the 2-A stuff. I'm still in support of removing possibly and adding time manipulation though.

 

[Comicgyal]

“Possibly Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Queen Sheba and Jubileus at full power, who was stated to be able to reunite the Trinity of Realities with the power of the Eyes of the World)"

This is blatantly copied and pasted from Aesir’s page, so yes you are you using Aesir for the 2-C stuff.

that’s not even proven. again give me blatant scans that they are going to be merged, if not then they’re still keeping the 3-A key.

That’s not even stated where the hell did you get that claim? You’re trying to say she made 4 separate space time universes when you HAVE NOT given proof they are separate space time universes. Give me scans that they are separate space times instead of assumptions and then we’ll get somewhere.

Quote where did you say that possibilities and worlds are used interchangeably.

when was that ever proven that erasing the eyes in one timeline would affect the eyes in all timeline? And even then what does that have anything to do with 2-A?

Stop saying that things “would” or “should” happen without scans, give me proof that merging would include Muselpheim and then we might be getting somewhere, if there’s no mention that Musepheim is affected in the merging then the argument isn’t going anywhere here.

1. ??? I really don’t get where you’re getting that from. I never used Aesir to justify 2-C, if you’re referring to me making him a key earlier? i still don’t get it

2. Blatant scans that the TIMELINES will be merged? That’s where their 2-C comes from in the first place. I’m not proving something again, that’s already been proven

3. Because as I said if you would take more time to read other responses, we have a literal diagram of the trinitys structure. Three universes stacked over each other, not including Muspelheim, purgatorio, or the universes jubileus made.

4. I gave reasoning as to why you can figure that the possibilities they’re referring to are worlds, look at the 2-A section again.

5. What happens with the eyes in one timeline, happens in the other. This is literally Bayonetta 1 basics, and what’s been proven and what gives them their 2-C justifications. It has nothing to do with 2-A, I only said that it’s existence erasure lol

6. because while Muspelheim isn’t in the trinity, its dimension is connected to it. As proven in its entry

“Have you ever heard of gates that connect worlds? It might sound like strange fiction, but the truth is these gates exist all over the world we live in.”

“a place called Muspelheim. The place is full of demons, angels, witches, and sages, who spend their days pursuing nothing other than battle. This limitless world disregards the wounds and deaths of yesterday, always breathing life into its warriors so that they may live to fight another day.”

Filled with demons, angels, and witches and sages because it’s connected to trinity. Therefore it’s not separate from the merging. It can be connected to the ToR, while not being in its layered structure. Take purgatorio for example. It’s in the middle of the trinity, but isn’t one of the three layers.

 

[Comicgyal]

Let’s tackle one part of the blog for now, instead of going back and forth through multiple points. So we can either talk about Muspelheim and 2-C, or 2-A. Not both at once.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Question, why is Muspelheim its own space-time continuum?

 

[Comicgyal]

Because time passes in Muspelheim, however it’s not apart of the trinitys space time, since it’s not in the structure. But I’m going to ask a mod about that.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Because time passes in Muspelheim, however it’s not apart of the trinitys space time, since it’s not in the structure. But I’m going to ask a mod about that.

tbf this might not be enough to qualify these days. make sure to ask a mod though

 

[Dienomite22]

Because it’s the same multiverse?? I don’t understand what you don’t get, the multiverse that weakened jubileus is the same one that full powered jubileus created. Which was also the foundation for the current multiverse.

It's not the same multiverse, it's Jubileus' "origin of the universe" which we don't know what it is nor can make out to be anything but maybe 3-A.

What do you mean by original Japanese? Muspelheim being a universe really isn’t controversial, it uses the same definitions as all other universes.

“Have you ever heard of gates that connect worlds?”

Worlds plural, multiple universes.

“The gate that connects the three worlds and makes the foundation of our own is relatively well known, so if you're reading this, I'll just go ahead and assume you know of it; however, there are stories of doors that lead to the secret lairs of the supernatural, and I've got a great source of information I need to bring things to light.”

Connects the three worlds, which are universes. So world = universe in Bayonetta lore.

“I can't reveal who my source is, but according to them, there is a gateway that leads to a primordial world cut off from the flow of time--a place called Muspelheim.”

World used again in reference to a universe, use of the world primordial meaning: existing at or from the beginning of time; primeval.

A universe that existed from the beginning of time, very simple and easy logic.

I'm telling you that isn't enough information by itself to determine if the dimension is a universe. Just ask staff who are well versed with the tiering system to settle this.

The merging of the trinity encompasses their entire multiverse, since Kamiya explains that merging the trinity will result in Armageddon. Which is:


a dramatic and catastrophic conflict, typically seen as likely to destroy the world or the human race.

• a biblical hill of Megiddo, an archaeological site on the plain of Esdraelon, south of present-day Haifa in Israel.
• the place where the last battle between good and evil will be fought.
  
  In the context of Bayonetta, the first definition which is the destruction of everything is the most reliable.

Yes, the merging of the trinity would result in Armageddon for the trinity, not for anything outside of it. Why would an armageddon of a universe affect the dimensions outside of it?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Because time passes in Muspelheim

Just gonna point out that this is not even close enough to be proof.

however it’s not apart of the trinitys space time, since it’s not in the structure.

But didn't you say it was connected to the ToR? That would imply it they share the same space/time

 

[Comicgyal]

Just gonna point out that this is not even close enough to be proof.



But didn't you say it was connected to the ToR? That would imply it they share the same space/time

Time passing in Muspelheim means that it’s a universe with a timeflow, and it being outside of the TOR time space seems like it’s a different one. Especially since it’s definition of time doesn’t fit any of the other dimensions

Though as I said I’d ask a mod about it, so let’s hold off on Muspelheim.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, the merging of the trinity would result in Armageddon for the trinity, not for anything outside of it. Why would an armageddon of a universe affect the dimensions outside of it?

because Muspelheim is connected to the trinity. But I will contact a mod now.

 

[Dienomite22]

because Muspelheim is connected to the trinity. But I will contact a mod now.

But you said

You may say that is too vague, but remind yourself that Muspelheim is not included in the trinity. Kamiya shows us a diagram of how the trinity is structured. Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world are layered on top of each other. Muspelheim and Purgatorio are not included in this structure, but still have time flows themselves. They not only operate under separate time, but are still apart of Bayonettas multiverse. They just aren’t layered like the others.

 

[Comicgyal]

Muspelheim is connected to the trinity, but is not in its structure. Think of it like how purgatorio connects the realities, but isn’t in the trinitys layers itself.

 

[Dienomite22]

Muspelheim is connected to the trinity, but is not in its structure. Think of it like how purgatorio connects the realities, but isn’t in the trinitys layers itself.

Well, Purgatorio is in the Trinity layers, between them actually. Nevertheless, Muspelheim isn't anything like Purgatorio so what makes you think it's affected by the merging?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Can someone please remind me why we're even debating over Muspelheim to begin with when it literally wasn't even mentioned in the blog at all?

 

[Dienomite22]

Can someone please remind me why we're even debating over Muspelheim to begin with when it literally wasn't mentioned in the blog at all?

Because Comicgal said the merging Jubileus would perform would affect Muspelheim and that Muspelheim is a universe with it's own space-time and 22 other universes.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

If that's why this is being argued over, I'd recommend just stopping and putting that off until later, because that would only be relevant to how high within 2-C the top tiers would be. There are other more important proposals in the blog that should probably be looked over first.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Time passing in Muspelheim means that it’s a universe with a timeflow, and it being outside of the TOR time space seems like it’s a different one.

Time passing in a place is not enough to make it a separate space-time, look at the Dragon Ball peeps for example their heaven, hell, kaio realm, etc. all have a time flow but none are separated universes but just a big universe which is just Low 2-C.

Especially since it’s definition of time doesn’t fit any of the other dimensions

What definition of time? The only thing is about it being "cut from the flow of time" and yet you said it is connected

 

[Dienomite22]

I take back my agreement with everything except witch time stuff for now.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This Muselpheim case seems like RoSaT from Dragon Ball, separated from flow of time should be enough for separate time stream in my opinion, only reason RoSaT isn't considered low2C is due to its planet size, its not standard universal size. I don't know what size Muslepheim is or what merger it is involved in, so I won't comment on that.

Just something to get off my chest....

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also disclaimer, none of the other realms in DB U7 macrocosm have any evidences of separated space-times, so they are only 3A.

 

[DaReaperMan]

WAAAGH!

 

[Dienomite22]

only reason RoSaT isn't considered low2C is due to its planet size, its not standard universal size.

Muspelheim is the same. It has no confirmation of being universal or more in size