Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Valiant_Abyss]

If that's why this is being argued over, I'd recommend just stopping and putting that off until later, because that would only be relevant to how high within 2-C the top tiers would be. There are other more important proposals in the blog that should probably be looked over first.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Bump. Could we at least conclude adding Time Manipulation to Witch Time/Light Speed?

While we wait for input on Muspelheim, could we just focus on things one at a time starting with the removal of 'possibly' from the top tiers since that seems to be the most simple thing here aside from Witch Time?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, Time Manipulation of WT/LS is the easiest.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes we can discuss that, does anyone here have any problems with adding time Manipulation back to witch time and light speed?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm just gonna restate what the blog said and clarify that WT/LS is retaining its Speed Boost properties, in addition to having Time Manipulation added to it in case anyone missed it.

 

[Comicgyal]

Hopefully no one forgets that it’s not just a speed boost, but an amp of their physicals overall.

should we clarify that on their pages?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

It'd be helpful if you could provide a scan to prove its an amp for their physicals.

 

[Comicgyal]

It’s in the same scan used for part of their justification for it being a speed amp.

“This technique sharpened all of the five senses, and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits. It is a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings. Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Okay then, that's fine. That would just be a minor readjustment to the pages' wording/links. Nothing too big.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Bump

 

[Comicgyal]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand summary of the arguments so far here please? If so, I can call some staff to help out here afterwards.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, I can, however to progress the thread we need some staff input over space times first. The main contention is whether or not places like Muspelheim, and jubileus’ sphere count as individual space times. So if you could call some staff for that, it would be appreciated. I’ve only received an answer from KingTempest thus far, and he said they would be separate space times though (as far as Muspelheim is concerned)

 

[Antvasima]

We need some easy to understand explanation post for them to evaluate regarding that subject as well.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bump

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

?
I bumped just now.

 

[DaReaperMan]

we had the same timing for a bump?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So, we still have to wait for more people to comment on the muspelheim thing (which going by the quick search not many believe it works) and the 2-A thing which is another issue.

I'm personally neutral to witch time and the boost

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand summary of the arguments so far here please? If so, I can call some staff to help out here afterwards.

We need some easy to understand explanation post for them to evaluate regarding that subject as well.

I need some collaboration here. Our staff are usually far more willing to evaluate an easy to understand thorough explanation of everything that they need to evaluate than hundreds of posts in an entire thread.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’ll write something in just a few moments, sorry I was busy with work.

 

[Comicgyal]

I need some collaboration here. Our staff are usually far more willing to evaluate an easy to understand thorough explanation of everything that they need to evaluate than hundreds of posts in an entire thread.

Essentially a god tier in the verse created 3 dimensions inside of this sphere. My claim is that these universes (the dimensions) are separate space times, not apart of the main spacetime. In their universe there are three realities layered over each other, each of which share a space time. So I’m saying that because these universes are not apart of this structural layer, its spacetime operates differently.

Same for another realm called Muspelheim, which is a universe cut off from the flow of time (however time passes) that is also not included in the main structure. Because of this I believe that it’s timeflow is also different than the rest.

That is just a small summary of my argument, I can give a more detailed description and include scans if need be.

 

[Dienomite22]

It would be best to include scans and give more details since these claims will bring a big change to the tiering.

 

[Comicgyal]

He asked for a small summary, so I’ll give more information once the staff are called in.

 

[Dienomite22]

It would be best to have that small summary and a more detailed summary in the thread before staff are in so they can see both rather than see the short summary and ask for more details and scans. It'll save time and answer questions if the scans and more details are summarized without them asking for it.

 

[Comicgyal]

Okay, here’s a bit more of a detailed explanation.

Alright, let’s start with the structure. In Bayonetta lore there are three main universes, and one universe in between. These are called the Trinity of Realities, and were created after a cataclysmic event.

I’m sure you already know, but they are layered on top of each other like a stack of cards. Because of this, the three universes share one spacetime due to their unique connection to each other.

In the game, Jubileus created what Kamiya describes as the “Origin of the universe”Essentially when she was at her peak, she was creating the same thing. It’s the foundation for their current multiverse. Inside of this sphere Jubileus created multiple dimensions, which are confirmed universes.

Time passes there, because Kamiya says it’s to give a depiction of heaven and earth being created. Meaning she’s actively creating a universe. My take is that since these spaces are universes with time, but are not inside of the trinitys unique layered space time structure, they are different space times.

This makes sense to me, since the trinity shares a unique balance with one another. One reality can’t be stronger than the other, or the world will fall apart. Nor can other realities be introduced.

Muspelheim is another universe inside of Bayonettas lore, it’s description goes as follows: (using Japanese translations)

“ I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time. “

Two important things are the use of the word “World” which are used to describe universes in Bayonetta, along with it being separated from the flow of time. Meaning it either has no time, or is separated from the main time. But if we look further into its description:

“ Over there, they say, angels, demons, witches, and wise men are fighting an endless battle. The reason why it is never-ending is because no matter how hurt they are, or how many times they die, the next day their wounds will be healed, the great power of life will light up again and they will be driven to the battlefield once again. “

it says the next day, meaning that days passes there, which means time does as well. So wouldn’t it make sense for them to be saying that’s it separated from the main 3 universes time flow? Especially since it’s not in the structure diagram.

This is my copy pasted explanation sent to Ultima, can elaborate more if needed.

 

[Antvasima]

Essentially a god tier in the verse created 3 dimensions inside of this sphere. My claim is that these universes (the dimensions) are separate space times, not apart of the main spacetime. In their universe there are three realities layered over each other, each of which share a space time. So I’m saying that because these universes are not apart of this structural layer, its spacetime operates differently.

Same for another realm called Muspelheim, which is a universe cut off from the flow of time (however time passes) that is also not included in the main structure. Because of this I believe that it’s timeflow is also different than the rest.

That is just a small summary of my argument, I can give a more detailed description and include scans if need be.

Okay, here’s a bit more of a detailed explanation.

Alright, let’s start with the structure. In Bayonetta lore there are three main universes, and one universe in between. These are called the Trinity of Realities, and were created after a cataclysmic event.

I’m sure you already know, but they are layered on top of each other like a stack of cards. Because of this, the three universes share one spacetime due to their unique connection to each other.

In the game, Jubileus created what Kamiya describes as the “Origin of the universe”Essentially when she was at her peak, she was creating the same thing. It’s the foundation for their current multiverse. Inside of this sphere Jubileus created multiple dimensions, which are confirmed universes.

Time passes there, because Kamiya says it’s to give a depiction of heaven and earth being created. Meaning she’s actively creating a universe. My take is that since these spaces are universes with time, but are not inside of the trinitys unique layered space time structure, they are different space times.

This makes sense to me, since the trinity shares a unique balance with one another. One reality can’t be stronger than the other, or the world will fall apart. Nor can other realities be introduced.

Muspelheim is another universe inside of Bayonettas lore, it’s description goes as follows: (using Japanese translations)

“ I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time. “

Two important things are the use of the word “World” which are used to describe universes in Bayonetta, along with it being separated from the flow of time. Meaning it either has no time, or is separated from the main time. But if we look further into its description:

“ Over there, they say, angels, demons, witches, and wise men are fighting an endless battle. The reason why it is never-ending is because no matter how hurt they are, or how many times they die, the next day their wounds will be healed, the great power of life will light up again and they will be driven to the battlefield once again. “

it says the next day, meaning that days passes there, which means time does as well. So wouldn’t it make sense for them to be saying that’s it separated from the main 3 universes time flow? Especially since it’s not in the structure diagram.

This is my copy pasted explanation sent to Ultima, can elaborate more if needed.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz @CrimsonStarFallen

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose 2-C makes sense, but I'm still unsure about the 2-A stuff initially proposed in the blog post.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I suppose 2-C makes sense, but I'm still unsure about the 2-A stuff initially proposed in the blog post.

Are you agreeing to both the 2-C proposals?

 

[Dienomite22]

I'll provide a summary for my counterarguments against some of Comicgal's proposals after more staff give their input on Comicgal's proposals.

 

[Comicgyal]

That’s fine, the 2-A stuff isn’t being talked about much right now. Just trying to get opinions for 2-C atm.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yeah, I do think it'd be better if we could focus on this one at a time, starting with the 2-C revisions. I'm not sure what it counts for, but I'm just going to clarify that I agree on the removal of "possibly" from the top tiers, but I disagree with making single-eye holders and those to scale to them 2-C as well for reasons listed above.

 

[Comicgyal]

For any staff coming in to give an opinion, the scaling eye holders to 2-C comes from the sphere creation and the universes inside. Jubileus was recreating the same feat from when she had both eyes, it’s better elaborated on in my blog.

The reason why Muspelheim is being talked about, is whether or not it’s a separate space time universe. Which would make the base merging feat 2-C, without inclusion of the alternate timeline. Just for any further confusion about why it’s being brought up.

 

[Comicgyal]

Ultima reality agrees with the Muspelheim and Sphere being separate space times. So that’s King_Tempest and Ultima as other moderators.

 

[Dienomite22]

If they can give their input here so I know they are giving it with the knowledge of both side's arguments that would be cool.

 

[Dienomite22]

I guess it's fine for me to write my summary for my counterarguments.

My first issue that comes with the proposal is Jubileus' "origin of the universe" being considered 2-C. The only information we have of this sphere is that it contains at least 1 universe according to WoG, which is the lightning/wind space Jubileus creates, while the other two spaces she creates are clearly not universes in terms of size or scope, unlike the lightning/wind space which can be argued to be a universe thanks to the visuals. Kamiya states this sphere is the "origin of the universe is trying to create" with the elements of fire, ice, lightning, and wind is used to create an "image of Heaven and Earth being created". This is all the information we have on the sphere. Nothing mentioning it having its own space-time or being outside the trinity of the realities' space-time, in fact, Queen Sheba is summoned outside of said sphere (which is physically shown to be at the far end of our solar system) and punches Jubileus' sphere, destroying said sphere and knocking Jubileus' soul into the Sun. I'm not sure how this would be done if the sphere is not within the ToR's (Trinity of Realities) space-time. Not only that happens but Jubileus' physical body falls back to Earth right after being punched by Queen Sheba. As this is a summary I will withhold my other arguments against the sphere being 2-C but my stance on the feat is that it's 3-A for the lightning space Jubileus temporarily created being called a universe by WoG.

My second issue is Muspelheim and claims made about it that lack evidence. I always like to start with what we know so let's do that. What we know about Musepelhiem is that it's a dimension filled with stars and that it's separate from the flow of time, that's it. Now to my issues with Comicgal's proposal. Muspelheim is never called a universe anywhere. The "proof" that Muspelheim is a universe comes from it being called a "World" like Chaos, Paradiso, and Inferno, the three main universes in Bayonetta. Never mind that even with it being separate from the flow of time and having a starry sky background, Musepelheim would not line up with the standards that would dictate that a dimension is a universe.

Spoiler: Universe Standards

What is considered a universe sized dimension:

• If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
• If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
• If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
• Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
• If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

What is not proof of a universe sized dimension:

• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.
• A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.
• The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.
• Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming and "Entire Reality".
• Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe.

As you can see from the standards, Muspelheim would be 4-A in size with the current evidence but Muspelheim's size is not my biggest issue I have with the proposals. Although not mentioned in the OP, Comicgal has made it clear earlier in the thread that she believes Muspelheim contains 22 universes and Muspelheim would be one of the dimensions included when Jubileus merges the Trinity of Realities. Now if you've been paying attention you may ask, why would a dimension that is outside of the space-time of the ToR be affected by the merging of the Trinity? And I would answer with I don't know as I have asked the same question and have gotten no proper response. There is no logical reason why Muspelheim would be included in the merging of the ToR.

TL;DR Jubileus' sphere is not 2-C, is not a separate space-time outside of the ToR, Muspelheim is not a universe nor universe sized and Muspelheim is not a part of Jubileus' ToR merge.

Just like Comicgal, I am also willing to go into more detail if there is a need for it.

 

[Antvasima]

I guess it's fine for me to write my summary for my counterarguments.

My first issue that comes with the proposal is Jubileus' "origin of the universe" being considered 2-C. The only information we have of this sphere is that it contains at least 1 universe according to WoG, which is the lightning/wind space Jubileus creates, while the other two spaces she creates are clearly not universes in terms of size or scope, unlike the lightning/wind space which can be argued to be a universe thanks to the visuals. Kamiya states this sphere is the "origin of the universe is trying to create" with the elements of fire, ice, lightning, and wind is used to create an "image of Heaven and Earth being created". This is all the information we have on the sphere. Nothing mentioning it having its own space-time or being outside the trinity of the realities' space-time, in fact, Queen Sheba is summoned outside of said sphere (which is physically shown to be at the far end of our solar system) and punches Jubileus' sphere, destroying said sphere and knocking Jubileus' soul into the Sun I'm not sure how this would be done if the sphere is not within the ToR's (Trinity of Realities) space-time. Not only that happens but Jubileus' physical body falls back to Earth right after being punched by Queen Sheba. As this is a summary I will withhold my other arguments against the sphere being 2-C but my stance on the feat is that it's a 3-A for the lightning space being called a universe by WoG.

My second issue is Muspelheim and claims made about it that lack evidence. I always like to start with what we know so let's do that. What we know about Musepelhiem is that it's a dimension filled with stars and that it's separate from the flow of time, that's it. Now to my issues with Comicgal's proposal. Muspelheim is never called a universe anywhere. The "proof" that Muspelheim is a universe comes from it being called a "World" like Chaos, Paradiso, and Inferno, the three main universes in Bayonetta. Never mind that even with it being separate from the flow of time and having a starry sky background, Musepelheim would not line up with the standards that would dictate that a dimension is a universe.


As you can see from the standards, Muspelheim would be 4-A in size with the current evidence but Muspelheim's size is my biggest issue I have with the proposals. Although not mentioned in the OP, Comicgal has made it clear earlier in the thread that she believes Muspelheim contains 22 universes and Muspelheim would be one of the dimensions included when Jubileus merges the Trinity of Realities. Now if you've been paying attention you may ask, why would a dimension that is outside of the space-time of the ToR be affected by the merging of the Trinity? And I would answer with I don't know as I have asked the same question and have gotten no proper response. There is no logical reason why Muspelheim would be included in the merging of the ToR.

TL;DR Jubileus' sphere is not 2-C, is not a separate space-time outside of the ToR, Muspelheim is not a universe nor universe sized and Muspelheim is not a part of Jubileus' ToR merge.

Just like Comicgal, I am also willing to go into more detail if there is a need for it.

@KingTempest @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?

 

[Comicgyal]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I guess it's fine for me to write my summary for my counterarguments.

My first issue that comes with the proposal is Jubileus' "origin of the universe" being considered 2-C. The only information we have of this sphere is that it contains at least 1 universe according to WoG, which is the lightning/wind space Jubileus creates, while the other two spaces she creates are clearly not universes in terms of size or scope, unlike the lightning/wind space which can be argued to be a universe thanks to the visuals. Kamiya states this sphere is the "origin of the universe is trying to create" with the elements of fire, ice, lightning, and wind is used to create an "image of Heaven and Earth being created". This is all the information we have on the sphere. Nothing mentioning it having its own space-time or being outside the trinity of the realities' space-time, in fact, Queen Sheba is summoned outside of said sphere (which is physically shown to be at the far end of our solar system) and punches Jubileus' sphere, destroying said sphere and knocking Jubileus' soul into the Sun. I'm not sure how this would be done if the sphere is not within the ToR's (Trinity of Realities) space-time. Not only that happens but Jubileus' physical body falls back to Earth right after being punched by Queen Sheba. As this is a summary I will withhold my other arguments against the sphere being 2-C but my stance on the feat is that it's 3-A for the lightning space Jubileus temporarily created being called a universe by WoG.

My second issue is Muspelheim and claims made about it that lack evidence. I always like to start with what we know so let's do that. What we know about Musepelhiem is that it's a dimension filled with stars and that it's separate from the flow of time, that's it. Now to my issues with Comicgal's proposal. Muspelheim is never called a universe anywhere. The "proof" that Muspelheim is a universe comes from it being called a "World" like Chaos, Paradiso, and Inferno, the three main universes in Bayonetta. Never mind that even with it being separate from the flow of time and having a starry sky background, Musepelheim would not line up with the standards that would dictate that a dimension is a universe.


As you can see from the standards, Muspelheim would be 4-A in size with the current evidence but Muspelheim's size is not my biggest issue I have with the proposals. Although not mentioned in the OP, Comicgal has made it clear earlier in the thread that she believes Muspelheim contains 22 universes and Muspelheim would be one of the dimensions included when Jubileus merges the Trinity of Realities. Now if you've been paying attention you may ask, why would a dimension that is outside of the space-time of the ToR be affected by the merging of the Trinity? And I would answer with I don't know as I have asked the same question and have gotten no proper response. There is no logical reason why Muspelheim would be included in the merging of the ToR.

TL;DR Jubileus' sphere is not 2-C, is not a separate space-time outside of the ToR, Muspelheim is not a universe nor universe sized and Muspelheim is not a part of Jubileus' ToR merge.

Just like Comicgal, I am also willing to go into more detail if there is a need for it.

@KingTempest @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz @CrimsonStarFallen

i would appreciate if you can evaluate this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure atm then.