Barbatos and Unexpected Mandrakk upgrade

[Xearsay]

It’s not an assumption that he was amped.
Comic book Limbo which exist on a lower qualitative level than Nil appears as a flat disk. Meaning if Hawkman wasn’t amped he wouldn’t be existing in Nil on the same scale as Mandrakk.

 

[Transcending]

Assuming it gives an amp is also an assumption.

No, because without magic it would give an amp. That's the wiki standard.

That's circular reasoning. We are determining whether the amp is present at all

And nth Metal doesn't have to show that ability before. What it did in the Unexpected is impossible without it amping.

You're missing the point, I am responding to you pointing out that Hawkman wasn't flat. I am explaining why his lack of "flatness

And your reasoning for Hawkman not being flat was that flatness is unique to 5-D. I am asking for proof of that, if you don't have it, there's no reason to assume it's exclusive to 5-D.

We saw magic defying the laws of physics but when it did that, the characters reaching the higher dimension happened to be flat. It's your job to prove that magic can make you reach a higher realm without making the beings flat as well.

What

From what I understand, nothing in fiction is truly completely beyond physics as per current wiki standards.

Assuming it gives an amp is also an assumption.

I have to disagree. Without the interference of magic, the amp would apply. We know this, so the question is if magic was applied or if it wasn't applied. The latter is the negative claim so it wouldn't be an assumption, and wouldn't need to be proven.

Plus when we did see magic defy the laws of physics, it made the characters look flat. Hawkman wasn't. So arguing magic can make you reach a higher dimension without making you flat would also be an assumption.

Also, Occam's Razor is a heuristic, not a law of logic.

Going by Wikipedia:

In philosophy, a razor is a principle or rule of thumb that allows one to eliminate ("shave off") unlikely explanations for a phenomenon, or avoid unnecessary actions

The extra assumptions are unnecessary and has no proof to them, meaning they can be eliminated.

 

[Transcending]

Plus not only did Hawkman look larger as noted by Xearsay above, but he literally did no relevant damage to Mandrakk. So even if he wasn't amped, it would be irrelevant.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s not an assumption that he was amped.

It is, you are assuming that how other realms appear from the perspective of Nil has to be indicative of an amp in the residents of Nil, but there is no evidence that this is the case.

No, because without magic it would give an amp. That's the wiki standard.

Says who?

And nth Metal doesn't have to show that ability before. What it did in the Unexpected is impossible without it amping.

It has never shown the ability to amp people. Your assumption that it amped them is no different from the assumption that it simply teleported them like Shazam did.

I am asking for proof of that, if you don't have it, there's no reason to assume it's exclusive to 5-D.

Again, you are missing the point. There is no reason to equate a lack of flatness to evidence of qualitative superiority. Whether or not it might apply it other realms is irrelevant to this fact.

From what I understand, nothing in fiction is truly completely beyond physics as per current wiki standards.

Please stop saying "wiki standard" without evidence. I am not going to accept a claim of something being a wiki standard without actual proof. You just tried to claim DT said something he said the complete opposite of.

Plus when we did see magic defy the laws of physics, it made the characters look flat. Hawkman wasn't. So arguing magic can make you reach a higher dimension without making you flat would also be an assumption.

It made them look flat because they were in a realm with higher geometric dimensions than their native realm. Nil does not have extra geometric dimensions.

The extra assumptions are unnecessary and has no proof to them, meaning they can be eliminated.

As can the assumption that they were amped. This cuts both ways.

 

[Transcending]

Says who?

Donttalk, already provided the evidence before

It has never shown the ability to amp people.

Not relevant, it just did. I am not making any assumption, I am making a negative claim that magic wasn't involved, and in that case the amp had to be there. It's the only possibility.

Again, you are missing the point. There is no reason to equate a lack of flatness to evidence of qualitative superiority. Whether or not it might apply it other realms is irrelevant to this fact.

When did I say a lack of flatness is evidence for qualitative superiority? A lack of flatness would actually be evidence against qualititive superiority.

Whether it applies to other realms is relevant because that's how we have seen magic function, assuming magic can do something other than making characters flat when sending them to higher dimensions is a complete assumption. In this case, I can even claim Burden of Proof.

Please stop saying "wiki standard" without evidence. I am not going to accept a claim of somethin

This should be pretty obvious seeing how even Tier 0 works with Cardinals, dimensions, and qualitative superiorities but even if you don't accept, that's irrelevant. You haven't proved physics doesn't apply to Nil.

You just tried to claim DT said something he said the complete opposite of.

This is a lie. You cropped what he said to the portion where he said existing in a higher realm without qualitative superiority doesn't scale you anywhere. I then showed the full context, including the part where he said a character existing in a higher realm with qualitative superiority is a power amp.

It made them look flat because they were in a realm with higher geometric dimensions than their native realm. Nil does not have extra geometric dimensions.

The fifth dimension was stated to be beyond geometric dimensions. But either way, do you have proof that magic can reach you to a realm beyond geometric dimensions?

As can the assumption that they were amped. This cuts both ways.

Explained before how it's not an assumption, please don't ignore my arguments.

 

[Transcending]

It is, you are assuming that how other realms appear from the perspective of Nil has to be indicative of an amp in the residents of Nil, but there is no evidence that this is the case.

A being existing in Nil(CAS) viewed Limbo as a small flat disk. This same being was only twice as large as other Monitors and equal in size to Mandrakk.

 

[Deagonx]

Donttalk, already provided the evidence before

When? The statement you quoted didn't address that at all.

Not relevant, it just did. I am not making any assumption, I am making a negative claim that magic wasn't involved, and in that case the amp had to be there. It's the only possibility.

Your claim "in that case the amp had to be there" is itself an assumption. Why do you need magic to accomplish it? Magic is one possible mechanism for doing it, but there's no reason to assume it's the only one.

When did I say a lack of flatness is evidence for qualitative superiority? A lack of flatness would actually be evidence against qualititive superiority.

You've misunderstood what I mean. You argued that Hawkman wasn't flat in Nil, therefore he was amped in Nil. I am saying that the fact that he was not flat has nothing to do with whether or not he was amped, and that the "flatness" of Shazam and GL had to do with the 5th Dimension specifically, not the fact that they weren't amped. Flatness, or lackthereof, should not be equated with whether or not we consider someone amped in a higher realm.

This should be pretty obvious seeing how even Tier 0 works with Cardinals, dimensions, and qualitative superiorities but even if you don't accept, that's irrelevant. You haven't proved physics doesn't apply to Nil.

Saying something is obvious isn't evidence. You haven't proved physics do apply to Nil, nor have you proved whether or not physics applying in some way determines how we would interpret the interaction between Hawkman and Mandrakk.

This is a lie. You cropped what he said to the portion where he said existing in a higher realm without qualitative superiority doesn't scale you anywhere. I then showed the full context, including the part where he said a character existing in a higher realm with qualitative superiority is a power amp.

No, it isn't a lie, and he didn't say what you claimed. He said it depends entirely on context, that simply being there means nothing, and gave a specific example of R>F differences where the lower reality is just a book. That does not apply to Nil at all whatsoever.

The fifth dimension was stated to be beyond geometric dimensions. But either way, do you have proof that magic can reach you to a realm beyond geometric dimensions?

The fifth dimension was stated to be many different things over time. In the storyline where Shazam and GL went there, it was primarily considered to be a higher geometric dimension, not something abstract.

Further, magic works however the author wants it to work.

Explained before how it's not an assumption, please don't ignore my arguments.

I didn't ignore your argument at all. You said "without magic it would give an amp. That's the wiki standard." and I asked for evidence, you just said "DontTalk said so" and I asked you what DT said to suggest that. I'm still waiting.

So I repeat, it is absolutely an assumption. If you have proof it's the wiki standard, then show that.

A being existing in Nil(CAS) viewed Limbo as a small flat disk. This same being was only twice as large as other Monitors and equal in size to Mandrakk.

I'm aware. This is the exact concept I was addressing:

you are assuming that how other realms appear from the perspective of Nil has to be indicative of an amp in the residents of Nil, but there is no evidence that this is the case.

 

[Transcending]

When? The statement you quoted didn't address that at all.

What? He literally said existing in a higher qualitatively superior realm gives you a power amp.

Your claim "in that case the amp had to be there" is itself an assumption. Why do you need magic to accomplish it? Magic is one possible mechanism for doing it, but there's no reason to assume it's the only one.

Do you have examples or evidence of other methods? Plus does the wiki even consider 5-D to have qualitative superiority?

You've misunderstood what I mean. You argued that Hawkman wasn't flat in Nil, therefore he was amped in Nil. I am saying that the fact that he was not flat has nothing to do with whether or not he was amped, and that the "flatness" of Shazam and GL had to do with the 5th Dimension specifically, not the fact that they weren't amped. Flatness, or lackthereof, should not be equated with whether or not we consider someone amped in a higher realm

And I asked for proof that flatness was unique to the 5-D. You didn't provide that.

Saying something is obvious isn't evidence.

I am aware, which is why I mentioned stuff like cardinality, dimensions, and qualitative superiorities.

You haven't proved physics do apply to Nil,

Saying physics doesn't exist in Nil is equal to saying it's not bound by qualitative superiorities, dimensions, and Cardinals. That would be something beyond the Tiering System entirely. Nil is specifically stated to be 1-A, a tier which is equated with Aleph 2 to Omega amount of dimensions, a concept of Physics.

nor have you proved whether or not physics applying in some way determines how we would interpret the interaction between Hawkman and Mandrakk.

Yes I have, countless times at that.

No, it isn't a lie, and he didn't say what you claimed. He said it depends entirely on context, that simply being there means nothing, and gave a specific example of R>F differences where the lower reality is just a book. That does not apply to Nil at all whatsoever.

Not true. He said it depends on context as in, it depends on the presence of qualitative superiority. The book thing was an example, it's not limited to that. Look at what he said again:

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

Like R>f, so qualitative superiority.

Further, magic works however the author wants it to work.

I don't care about which author wrote the comic, I only care about if it's in a DC comic. So let me ask you again, can you show evidence of magic sending people to realms beyond geometric dimensions?

I didn't ignore your argument at all.

Oh, then can you show me where you responded to this good sir?

but he literally did no relevant damage to Mandrakk. So even if he wasn't amped, it would be irrelevant.

You said "without magic it would give an amp. That's the wiki standard." and I asked for evidence, you just said "DontTalk said so" and I asked you what DT said to suggest that. I'm still waiting.

I explained where DT said that multiple times, I recommend re-reading my posts.

I'm aware. This is the exact concept I was addressing:

And you do realize if the beings are not qualitatively smaller than Limbo, they would have Limbo's tier if not a higher one?

 

[Deagonx]

What? He literally said existing in a higher qualitatively superior realm gives you a power amp.

No he didn't. I will quote the entire comment and break it down so that there is (hopefully) no more confusion.

It depends a lot on the context. Simply being present means nothing, especially if we are talking about things like higher-dimensional spaces.

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

He expressly denied that one should assume that existing in that realm gives you a power amp. He said it depends on context and gave a specific example, one which does not apply to Nil at all.

Do you have examples or evidence of other methods? Plus does the wiki even consider 5-D to have qualitative superiority?

It's fiction, I could literally write an example myself and that would be just as valid. The point I am making is that we cannot assume by default that amps are involved, there's no basis for doing that. We know that you can achieve it through other means, one example of which is magic.

And yes, the Fifth Dimension is considered to be a higher infinity.

And I asked for proof that flatness was unique to the 5-D. You didn't provide that.

Yes, because I am not claiming that flatness was unique to the Fifth Dimension, so why would I provide proof of a claim I am not making?

I am aware, which is why I mentioned stuff like cardinality, dimensions, and qualitative superiorities.

That is not evidence of your claim. How do those things support your claim?

Saying physics doesn't exist in Nil is equal to saying it's not bound by qualitative superiorities, dimensions, and Cardinals

No it isn't.

Like R>f, so qualitative superiority.

Not all qualitative superiorities are R>F.

And further, DT's comment alone does not establish a site standard.

So let me ask you again, can you show evidence of magic sending people to realms beyond geometric dimensions?

I could, easily, but I will not, because you are still completing missing the point and this is becoming tedious. The majority of our discussion has revolved around me correcting your misunderstanding of what I am saying, even though nothing I've said is particularly vague or complicated.

Oh, then can you show me where you responded to this good sir?

I literally explained it in the exact same section that you just quoted.

You said "without magic it would give an amp. That's the wiki standard." and I asked for evidence, you just said "DontTalk said so" and I asked you what DT said to suggest that. I'm still waiting.

I explained where DT said that multiple times

Except he didn't say that, and DT's opinions are not defacto site standards.

And you do realize if the beings are not qualitatively smaller than Limbo, they would have Limbo's tier if not a higher one?

Limbo does not have size.

 

[Transcending]

No he didn't. I will the entire comment and break it down so that there is (hopefully) no more confusion.

It depends a lot on the context. Simply being present means nothing, especially if we are talking about things like higher-dimensional spaces.

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

He expressly denied that one should assume that existing in that realm gives you a power amp. He said it depends on context and gave a specific example, one which does not apply to Nil at all.

That's not what he said. He said that existing in a realm without qualitative superiority doesn't give a power amp. He then clarified that for things like R>f(qualitative superiority), powers amps happen.

The "however" from his second paragraph is very important.

It's fiction, I could literally write an example myself and that would be just as valid.

This is not a good argument. You can write an example but it wouldn't be an official part of DC, I need an example from DC. Saying I can write base Batman as aTier 0 character cannot be used to argue him being Tier 0 after all.

The point I am making is that we cannot assume by default that amps are involved, there's no basis for doing that. We know that you can achieve it through other means, one example of which is magic.

Magic is the only example presented and I already explained problems with that multiple times.

And yes, the Fifth Dimension is considered to be a higher infinity.

Where?

Yes, because I am not claiming that flatness was unique to the Fifth Dimension, so why would I provide proof of a claim I am not making?

Then what is this?

The flatness is unique to the Fifth Dimension

That is not evidence of your claim. How do those things support your claim?

Because those are physics based concepts.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Not all qualitative superiorities are R>F.

Never said they are. DT didn't limit the amping to R>f either, which is why he said like R>f.

And further, DT's comment alone does not establish a site standard.

Ultima's does, and if Antvasima is to be trusted, DT is just as good as Ultima at the very least.

I could, easily, but I will not, because you are still completing missing the point and this is becoming tedious. The majority of our discussion has revolved around me correcting your misunderstanding of what I am saying, even though nothing I've said is particularly vague or complicated.

The majority of our discussion has also been about you choosing to discuss if Hawkman gets amped in Nil despite the fact my CRT stands even if he wasn't.

I literally explained it in the exact same section that you just quoted.

You missed my point. In that section I explained why my CRT stands even if Hawkman didn't have an amp, and now you are asking me proof that Hawkman got an amp. Why????

Except he didn't say that, and DT's opinions are not defacto site standards.

Check above

Limbo does not have size

Incorrect, it does not have matter.

 

[Deagonx]

That's not what he said. He said that existing in a realm without qualitative superiority doesn't give a power amp

No, he didn't. At this point, I don't care to bicker about it. As I've said, I fully reject that interpretation of what he said, and staff opinions aren't site standards.

This is not a good argument. You can write an example but it wouldn't be an official part of DC, I need an example from DC. Saying I can write base Batman as aTier 0 character cannot be used to argue him being Tier 0 after all.

The basis for this discussion is whether or not we should assume -- by default -- that being transported to a higher realm is indicative of an "amp" rather than merely being teleported. I have proven that this is not necessarily true in DC with a counter example.

You, however, have not given any evidence that this is true in DC, and your basis for saying it's the default assumption is a rather poor interpretation of a single moderators words a year ago, which, by my estimate, actually rejects your premise entirely.

I have given my opinion that the CRT is not valid and my reasoning is clear regardless of if you agree or disagree. I'm not going to spend any more time going back and forth about the minutiae of it.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx still makes good sense here, but I should note that DontTalkDT likely understands our tiering system standards better than anybody else in our community.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree, my intention was not to discredit DT's knowledge on the matter. In fact, I believe that what he said is entirely correct, and that it completely rejects the approach taken in the CRT. I was primarily criticizing the approach of defending certain things by saying "well it's wiki standard" and then quoting DT a year ago saying something vague which doesn't actually support the claim

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Transcending]

No, he didn't. At this point, I don't care to bicker about it. As I've said, I fully reject that interpretation of what he said

You can reject it if you want, the facts about what he said don't change.

and staff opinions aren't site standards.

I addressed this many times before.

The basis for this discussion is whether or not we should assume -- by default -- that being transported to a higher realm is indicative of an "amp" rather than merely being teleported. I have proven that this is not necessarily true in DC with a counter example.

I explained with what DT said how it would be an amp. Your reasoning was that because magic can let you reach 5-D without making you qualitatively superior, that applies to Nth metal too. But I showed that this was a flawed argument in many ways, including:

1: You didn't prove 5-D has a qualitative superiority according to the wiki

2: You didn't prove magic can send you to a higher realm without making you flat

3: You didn't prove flatness is unique to 5-D

4: You didn't prove magic can send you to realms beyond geometric dimensions

Etc. There's also the fact nothing implied Nth metal had anything to do with magic and defying physics.

You, however, have not given any evidence that this is true in DC

Don't need to, that's how the wiki standards are. And Antvasima confirmed DT's credibility

but I should note that DontTalkDT likely understands our tiering system standards better than anybody else in our community.

Which you agreed with

I agree

and your basis for saying it's the default assumption

I didn't say it's the default assumption, I said your reasoning is filled with assumptions.

of a single moderators words a year ago, which, by my estimate, actually rejects your premise entirely.

It doesn't, why would it? But even if it did, I explained above why if Hawkman was amped or not doesn't change the goal of my CRT. You still haven't addressed this fact despite me pointing it to you multiple times.

I have given my opinion that the CRT is not valid and my reasoning is clear regardless of if you agree or disagree. I'm not going to spend any more time going back and forth about the minutiae of it.

Cool. The agreements still outweigh the disagreements heavily.

 

[Antvasima]

Non-staff members don't clear any of our content revision threads for application.

 

[Transcending]

Non-staff members don't clear any of our content revision threads for application.

Why would non-staff members not have a say in this, especially when it includes knowledgeable members? By your logic, Deagon wouldn't have a say in this either.

Besides, I am sure a single staff disagreement isn't enough for closing. I have seen threads be open despite having like 5+ staffs disagreeing. Plus even with staff members, they still have to address a CRT's points. They can't simply say they disagree and lock it.

 

[Antvasima]

Non-staff members are allowed to try to convince the bureaucrats, administrators, and thread moderators of their arguments, but they do not make the final decisions. My apologies, but otherwise it would turn our wiki into a mere popularity contest via organised Discord or Facebook gangups.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, all of your arguments have been countered/nullified by Deagonx as far as I am aware.

 

[Deagonx]

Plus even with staff members, they still have to address a CRT's points. They can't simply say they disagree and lock it.

Your points have been addressed. The fact that you do not agree doesn't mean the thread needs to stay open in perpetuity until someone argues to your personal satisfaction. Many people who post CRTs simply never concede no matter what is said against them, so that would be an impractical basis for deciding whether or not a CRT has concluded.

We don't necessarily need to close the thread, but I doubt this is going to get any more traction. We can call some more staff members to the thread, but we can't ask the full site-staff to vote on every CRT, and based on my experience with the DC-informed staff members, they are likely to reject it for many of the same reasons I did.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Deagonx's latest post.

 

[Transcending]

Your points have been addressed. The fact that you do not agree

Me not agreeing is not the issue here, you literally didn't address the point I am talking about.

doesn't mean the thread needs to stay open in perpetuity until someone argues to your personal satisfaction.

But what does mean the thread needs to be open is the fact that we have only a single staff disagreement. That's a lot less input to close a thread

We don't necessarily need to close the thread, but I doubt this is going to get any more traction. We can call some more staff members to the thread, but we can't ask the full site-staff to vote on every CRT, and based on my experience with the DC-informed staff members, they are likely to reject it for many of the same reasons I did.

It may or may not get traction, fact remains however that the thread still has way too less input to lock it. It cannot be locked without far more disagreements.

 

[Transcending]

Non-staff members are allowed to try to convince the bureaucrats, administrators, and thread moderators of their arguments, but they do not make the final decisions. My apologies, but otherwise it would turn our wiki into a mere popularity contest via organised Discord or Facebook gangups.

I mean I guess I can understand your viewpoint, but we still need more staff input. A single staff member's opinion alone should absolutely not be enough to lock a thread

 

[Antvasima]

I could call for some more staff members, but I don't want to spam them for comparatively unimportant discussions.

 

[Transcending]

I could call for some more staff members, but I don't want to spam them for comparatively unimportant discussions.

This is a 1-A thread, I think it's definitely important enough.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

You can't just say "This thread won't be accepted" without addressing his arguments. Plus, you're assuming that other staff members disagree with him.

 

[Deagonx]

This is a 1-A thread, I think it's definitely important enough.

The tier suggestion is not what determines the importance of a thread.

You can't just say "This thread won't be accepted" without addressing his arguments.

All of his arguments were indeed addressed.

Plus, you're assuming that other staff members disagree with him.

Based on a large wealth of experience with those other staff members, yeah.

 

[Transcending]

The tier suggestion

The tier suggestion definitely adds to it, especially when a lot of members agree with the upgrade. And iirc in the content revision promotion thread, 1-A upgrades fell under Priority 1, the highest.

All of his arguments were indeed addressed

Cap. Not only do I not think you addressed all my arguments but Beyond Transcending doesn't seem to either, that's two people.

Based on a large wealth of experience with those other staff members, yeah.

So you do admit you are assuming, just that you have some experience with those staff. That doesn't change the fact you are still assuming, closing my thread based on assumptions would be a really bad move. Staff members haven't always agreed with you either, like in the Animal Man thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @LordTracer @Maverick_Zero_X @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Vondoom]

Mandrakk​

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki. So he should be 1-A. He also scales to Barbatos(Unexpected #8)

I don't understand he also scales to Barbados? Mandrakk is already 1-A and Barbados is tier 2.

Barbatos​

There are 3 reasons for his rating-

1: Is relative to Unexpected Mandrakk, slightly superior even, though he lacks the power to destroy Mandrakk(Unexpected #8)

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

3: Killed the World Forger. This feat is currently accepted as 2-C but World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C) but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

So overall, I think both Mandrakk and Barbatos needs to be 1-A.

1. If Monitor sphere currently is 1-A and Barbados is superior then he should be 1-A. Looking at the scans i'm beginning to have doubts as Mandrakk should be weaken after his battle with CAS so Barbatos being able to chain him shouldn't be enough as it would be a weakened Mandrakk.

2. If Monitor sphere and Nil are both 1-A and Quench was gonna destroy them then it's 1-A plus Mandrakk called Quench small compared to Barbatos so yeah I can agree to 1-A.

3. The Sphere of gods has been called fictional by even doctor fate/Nabu and called a place realer than real though WF is higher dimensional compared to the godsphere, that's not really anything from how the sphere of gods is...plus the statement from author goes against comic canon material as we know World Forger is from the 6th dimension not world forge.

Oh it's based on Unexpected then yeah Mandrakk can be tier 1-A in Unexpected and Barbatos can be 1-A from my number 2.

 

[Transcending]

I don't understand he also scales to Barbados? Mandrakk is already 1-A and Barbados is tier 2.

Yeah but with my upgrade Barbatos would be 1-A.

1. If Monitor sphere currently is 1-A and Barbados is superior then he should be 1-A. Looking at the scans i'm beginning to have doubts as Mandrakk should be weaken after his battle with CAS so Barbatos being able to chain him shouldn't be enough as it would be a weakened Mandrakk.

I am not trying to make any change to base Mandrakk, my proposal is to add a key for the weakened Mandrakk called "Unexpected Mandrakk" and then upgrade that version to 1-A. Full power Mandrakk is already 1-A.

. If Monitor sphere and Nil are both 1-A and Quench was gonna destroy them then it's 1-A plus Mandrakk called Quench small compared to Barbatos so yeah I can agree to 1-A.

Thanks

3. The Sphere of gods has been called fictional by even doctor fate/Nabu and called a place realer than real though WF is higher dimensional compared to the godsphere, that's not really anything from how the sphere of gods is.

I forgot about this when I was making the thread. You can see in one of my first posts against Deagon that I admitted my mistake.

.plus the statement from author goes against comic canon material as we know World Forger is from the 6th dimension not world forge.

I think the author was trying to say that World Forge is the Forger's realm similar to the positive Multiverse for Mar and anti-matter Multiverse for AM.

As I said before though, I am only trying to use this as a supporting point so I don't want to argue over this.

Oh it's based on Unexpected then yeah Mandrakk can be tier 1-A in Unexpected and Barbatos can be 1-A from my number 2.

Thanks

 

[Vondoom]

Justification once both Unexpected Mandrakk and Quench are 1-A, you could just say something like this on Barbatos profile.

Quench was stated or compared to be smaller than Barbatos.

 

[Transcending]

I think we could just say "Superior to Quench and comparable to Unexpected Mandrakk"

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @LordTracer @Maverick_Zero_X @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

Would you be willing to write easy to understand explanations of the discussion so far here, @Deagonx ?

 

[Deagonx]

Sure.

OP's main argument:

- Unexpected Mandrakk should be 1-A because he contended with Quench who was poised to destroy Nil, which is characterized as a 1-A realm on the profiles of the Endless.

- Barbatos should be 1-A as well, because he scales to that version of Mandrakk and above Quench, and killed the World Forger.

My main objections:

- Unexpected Mandrakk isn't 1-A because in this storyline he fought with street tiers like Hawkman, and I am not convinced that Nil is actually 1-A and don't believe it should be listed as such in the profiles of the Endless. Therefore, Barbatos shouldn't be either.

The resulting discussion primarily regarded OP's assertion that existing in Nil at all is evidence of the characters being amped, but I disagree with this and provided the counter-example that Shazam and GL were able to enter the Fifth Dimension without becoming 5-D.

 

[Transcending]

My main objections:

- Hawkman did absolutely no damage to Mandrakk in the storyline, he was just... there. Being involved in a fight is irrelevant if you cannot do relevant damage. Moreover, one of the reasons given for Superman not scaling to Low 2-C by fighting Nebula Man was that Superman only gave a single punch to him, but even that punch changed Nebula Man's face to a hurt one. Here, Mandrakk was literally toying with Hawkman. So if that can't count, this can't either. Additionally, whether Deagon considers Nil as 1-A is irrelevant considering the fact the wiki does currently accept it as such. If he wants to change that, he should create another CRT or wait for the revisions.

Lastly, before ending this point, Deagon himself also showed an analogy earlier that a human cannot fight a galaxy properly even if he wishes to. Same thing here, the fact Hawkman wants to fight Mandrakk properly doesn't change the fact he is too weak to.

- The wiki's standards currently go by that going to a higher qualitatively superior realm amps your power, which I proved with DT's post. Additionally, Hawkman at the time was larger than Limbo, which means he should have the tier of Limbo at the very least. That is 1-A. In the case of Shazam and GL entering the fifth dimension, Deagon didn't show where the wiki considers 5-D to have a qualitative superiority and they entered 5-D specifically due to magic, something the wiki currently accepts to defy physics entirely. Nth metal however, wasn't stated to defy physics or have magical properties. Plus this argument dealt a lot with assumptions, and Deagon hasn't proved these points-

1: You didn't prove 5-D has a qualitative superiority according to the wiki

2: You didn't prove magic can send you to a higher realm without making you flat

3: You didn't prove flatness is unique to 5-D

4: You didn't prove magic can send you to realms beyond geometric dimensions

Etc. There's also the fact nothing implied Nth metal had anything to do with magic and defying physics.

My reasoning for asking for proof for the first two points should be obvious(for the second point for example, magic pretty clearly made GL and Shazam appear flat in 5-D, while Hawkman looked normal in Nil). I asked proof for the third and fourth points specifically because of what Deagon said here-

The flatness is unique to the Fifth Dimension, it's not an inherent trait of anyone in a higher realm without being amp

And here

It made them look flat because they were in a realm with higher geometric dimensions than their native realm. Nil does not have extra geometric dimensions.

I think you can already get an idea of what I meant by assumptions from these, but reading the full long debate would enhance your knowledge.

 

[Deagonx]

The wiki's standards currently go by that going to a higher qualitatively superior realm amps your power, which I proved with DT's post.

The post from DT in question says the following:

It depends a lot on the context. Simply being present means nothing, especially if we are talking about things like higher-dimensional spaces.

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

As stated earlier, I fully reject the notion that this 'proves' a wiki standard of default amps by going to a 'qualitatively superior realm' and in-fact, it seems clear to me that he is saying the exact opposite of that. I'm repeating this so that any of the staff members reading it do not accept by default that this notion was proven, because I contest that strongly as well.

 

[Transcending]

I will explain why I believe what DT said confirms my point. The second paragraph is what's important-

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

In the first paragraph, DT explains how simply existing in a higher dimensional realm without qualitative superiority doesn't amp you, but in the second paragraph he says "however" and clarifies how existing in a realm which has something like R>f(qualitative superiority) can be seen as a power boost when brought from a lower realm.

So not only do we have in-comic evidence of a power boost, but that's how the wiki functions as well.

 

[Deagonx]

In the first paragraph, DT explains how simply existing in a higher dimensional realm without qualitative superiority doesn't amp you

You are editorializing his statement, he never said "without qualitative superiority." The discussion was about whether or not you scale to the realm you exist in. This is fundamentally addressing the notion of superiority. Frankly, he didn't say anything like what you are describing.

but in the second paragraph he says "however" and clarifies how existing in a realm which has something like R>f(qualitative superiority) can be seen as a power boost when brought from a lower realm.

Again, you are altering his statement. He gave a specific example of R>F difference and how it could be used as scaling in the context of a book being the lower reality. You transposing this to all higher realms is completely contradicting the point of his statement.

 

[Transcending]

You are editorializing his statement, he never said "without qualitative superiority."

He doesn't have to say that explicitly. The fact he said "however" later means that it was his intension.

The discussion was about whether or not you scale to the realm you exist in.

Didn't disagree. This was what I addressed.

Again, you are altering his statement. He gave a specific example of R>F difference and how it could be used as scaling in the context of a book being the lower reality. You transposing this to all higher realms is completely contradicting the point of his statement.

Wrong. He said LIKE R>f, meaning qualitative superiority. R>f was just an example of his point, it's not a limitation. You are ignoring the "like" for some reason, despite the fact I bolded it.