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Barbatos and Unexpected Mandrakk upgrade

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Well, I am not fiercely opposed to the Mandrakk change, but it seems far too inconsistent in relation to how he was portrayed in terms of power level, and we intend to revise the DC Comics cosmology relatively soon anyway, so it is likely better to just remove Mandrakk's "Tales of the Unexpected" statistics and replace them with a footnote regarding that he was portrayed in a too contradictory manner to scale properly
 
Can you elaborate on how he was portrayed inconsistently and in a contradictory manner? He only came in #6, #7, and #8. In #6 he one shotted Fuginaut. In #7 he killed Neon and Quench and showed no signs on injury. In #8 we see Hawkman and Firebrand being helpless until Neon and Quench came. After that we see Mandrakk saying Barbatos had a hard time with him, before Neon admitted he can't destroy Mandrakk and instead changed his physiology.
 
It's not decided via consensus
It usually is. Besides, deciding on something based on what a single disagreer said that another person happened to agree with is a really bad move. That's really low input. The general opinion has to be considered when doing this.
and responding to an argument doesn't mean you proved them wrong.
Sure but again, the general opinion has to be considered. If ten staff members agree to a thread, the one disagreer cannot say they cannot pass the thread because OP only responded to his arguments and didn't prove them wrong. We let others read over our arguments and decide which makes more sense to them.

Writing a footnote has far less input, without more agreements towards it, it's simply not a good move. The best move here is to wait for more staff to come.
 
The best move here is to wait for more staff to come.
Does this involve you "bumping" the thread every day or few days in the complete absence of any continued discussion taking place? Because if so, I don't really agree that it's the best move.
 
Does this involve you "bumping" the thread every day or few days in the complete absence of any continued discussion taking place? Because if so, I don't really agree that it's the best move.
It's definitely not a good move in the general sense, but the other choices are worse. One involves writing a footnote which has low input and a bad agree-to-disagree ratio, while the other involves doing all the edits without staff agreements, and I am sure you are not fine with that.

Other than this, the only way would be to individually ask staff members to give input rather than pinging them.
 
Can you elaborate on how he was portrayed inconsistently and in a contradictory manner? He only came in #6, #7, and #8. In #6 he one shotted Fuginaut. In #7 he killed Neon and Quench and showed no signs on injury. In #8 we see Hawkman and Firebrand being helpless until Neon and Quench came. After that we see Mandrakk saying Barbatos had a hard time with him, before Neon admitted he can't destroy Mandrakk and instead changed his physiology.
Hmm. I suppose that these seem to be good points, if your interpretations are accurate.

Should we remove the extra statistics key for Mandrakk then, and assume that he at least had somewhat comparable power to previously in the "Tales of the Unexpected" story? We will hopefully revise the overall scaling relatively soon anyway.

Also, I assume that Barbatos would only scale to 1-A when he is present in The World Forger's part of the 6th Dimension. Otherwise the mechanics of the Snyder cosmology would turn far too incoherent.
 
Hmm. I suppose that these seem to be good points, if your interpretations are accurate.
Yeah, I can give you scans if you like.
Should we remove the extra statistics key for Mandrakk then, and assume that he at least had somewhat comparable power to previously in the "Tales of the Unexpected" story? We will hopefully revise the overall scaling relatively soon anyway.
I am fine either way, Mandrakk during the Unexpected was explicitly weaker than he was in FC, as he himself confirmed when he said he was broken(by the fall CAS gave him in FC) and just got enough power to escape the Dark Multiverse and into the main Multiverse. The author didn't clarify to us how weakened Mandrakk was, so that's unquantifiable.
Also, I assume that Barbatos would only scale to 1-A when he is present in The World Forger's part of the 6th Dimension. Otherwise the mechanics of
Barbatos only has one key atm.
 
Yeah, I can give you scans if you like.
Okay.
I am fine either way, Mandrakk during the Unexpected was explicitly weaker than he was in FC, as he himself confirmed when he said he was broken(by the fall CAS gave him in FC) and just got enough power to escape the Dark Multiverse and into the main Multiverse. The author didn't clarify to us how weakened Mandrakk was, so that's unquantifiable.
Okay. Perhaps we should change his statistics in that key to "Possibly 1-A" for the time being then?
Barbatos only has one key atm.
Well, wasn't he the pet of The World Forger? If so, he should probably get an extra "In the 6th Dimension" key, or whatever The World Forger's extra key for this is called.
 
Kills Fuginaut, Quench, and Neon. Mandrakk then toys with Hawkman and Firebrand, who are helpless, until Neon and Quench comes. Mandrakk says Barbatos could hardly chain him, and then that he cannot be destroyed, something Neon agrees to, opting to change him instead.
Okay. Perhaps we should change his statistics in that key to "Possibly 1-A" for the time being then?
I don't think that's necessary. As I have proven, Unexpected Mandrakk is explicitly 1-A, same as FC Mandrakk. He's just a weaker 1-A.
Well, wasn't he the pet of The World Forger? If so, he should probably get an extra "In the 6th Dimension" key, or whatever The World Forger's extra key for this is called.
He's Forger's pet but he has never actually visited the Sixth Dimension, and he has implied before that his peak is in the Dark Multiverse, at the centre of which exists the World Forge.
 
Well, I am not fiercely opposed to the Mandrakk change, but it seems far too inconsistent in relation to how he was portrayed in terms of power level, and we intend to revise the DC Comics cosmology relatively soon anyway, so it is likely better to just remove Mandrakk's "Tales of the Unexpected" statistics and replace them with a footnote regarding that he was portrayed in a too contradictory manner to scale properly
Can I see scans of the contradictory manners?
 
Okay. Noted.
I don't think that's necessary. As I have proven, Unexpected Mandrakk is explicitly 1-A, same as FC Mandrakk. He's just a weaker 1-A.
Okay. In itself that is probably not a problem, but...
He's Forger's pet but he has never actually visited the Sixth Dimension, and he has implied before that his peak is in the Dark Multiverse, at the centre of which exists the World Forge.
Here is the problem: If the mechanics for Perpetua, The World Forger, et cetera, requires them to be in the 6th Dimension to reach a 1-A scale of power, it doesn't make any sense for Barbatos to reach that scale all the time, even when restricted to manifesting in regular universes. If he has genuinely never visited the 6th Dimension where The World Forger does most of his work, then he should probably only scale to whatever statistics Mandrakk is restricted to within regular universes.
 
Can I see scans of the contradictory manners?
I was going by memory regarding Hawkman and Firebrand, but we have already passed that stage of our discussion.
 
As I have proven, Unexpected Mandrakk is explicitly 1-A, same as FC Mandrakk. He's just a weaker 1-A.
"Proven?"

You have not proven it, at all. You made an argument that relies upon a conclusion made in Dream's profile which isn't necessarily sound, and denying the clear anti-feats in the storyline by claiming Hawkman was amped when there's no evidence he was amped, by relying on a poor interpretation of something DT said to claim that it's "wiki standard" to default assume an amp in a higher realm, when he didn't say that and literally said the opposite.
 
Well, I agree with your assessment, but the problem is that we haven't performed our DC Comics cosmology revision yet, so we currently likely have to follow what our character profile pages currently say for scaling purposes in this case.
 
Here is the problem: If the mechanics for Perpetua,
Currently Perpetua's In-Multiverse form is also 1-A.
The World
I wouldn't say it's a massive stretch, since Barbatos has shown to be superior to Forger by outright killing him. Plus if the WoG scan I provided in OP is legit, WF in Dark Multiverse>WF in 6D.
it doesn't make any sense for Barbatos to reach that scale all the time, even when restricted to manifesting in regular universes. If he has genuinely never visited the 6th Dimension where The World Forger does most of his work
Thing is, WF doesn't actually do most of his work in 6D. WF's workplace is the World Forge, which exists at the centre of the Dark Multiverse.
Mandrakk is restricted to within regular universes.
Mandrakk hasn't visited regular universes to my knowledge. In FC he was in the Overvoid and Nil, and in the Unexpected he visited the Dark Multiverse and Nil.
You have not proven it, at all. You made an argument that relies upon a conclusion made in Dream's profile which isn't necessarily sound,

It is not just necessarily sound but it is perfectly so. Nil being 1-A is listed in ALL of the Endless's profiles. It being rated as 1-A in the profiles PROVES Nil is accepted as 1-A. I didn't show a forum post, I showed a WIKI page. There's no better proof.
and denying the clear anti-feats in the storyline by claiming Hawkman was amped when there's no evidence he was amped
I proved he was amped multiple times and others actually agreed with me. Your denial is not an argument.
by relying on a poor interpretation of something DT said to claim that it's "wiki standard" to default assume an amp in a higher realm, when he didn't say that and literally said the opposite.
He said the opposite? Hold up, let me check the like count
Ok, you have one like
What's this? I have two? I wonder why people liked my post when my own evidence confirms the opposite of my argument.
 
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Stop being rude to Deagonx.

In any case, can somebody remind me regarding our justifications for the current scaling for Perpetua and her children within the regular DC universes please?
 
The eye problem comments were unnecessary.
 
Because people like comments which support the characters they like. Argument ad populum does you no favors here.
I think in this case it's more likely that they read through our arguments and saw DT's quote supporting what I said.
 
Unfortunately no, Ant said that normal member opinions don't count and only staff opinions count. The issue here is that he's the only staff member that has come to this thread, so unless more staff members come, nothing's gonna happen.
You can tag them yourself then.
Yeah, at the centre of it
Is it a stretch to assume Barbados is stronger there then? He did kill World Forger there and world forger said to batman his weaker in lesser worlds though but still...plus he could imprison Mandrakk in the Dark multiverse.

It's just my personal opinion.
 
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Can't, normal members can't tag. Ant tagged them but they didn't respond.

No I do not believe it is a stretch. To the contrary, I think it's the truth because Dark Nights Metal had a lot of statements that implied Barbatos is at his peak there.
Nice,I just personally thought so.
 
Perpetua-
Outerverse level (While weakened, she fought The Ultra-Monitor and the power to create the Source Wall wasn't enough to beat her, Is the only being who could rival the Darkest Knight and matched him in a clash that raged across every facet of reality and could collapse the Multiverse)

Anti-Monitor-
Equal to The Monitor. Darkseid would not escape him after he's done with the infinite universes and could destroy Apokolips. Defeated Earth-1 Superman

Monitor-
Stalemated the Anti-Monitor in a clash that rendered both unconscious. On his death, the Monitor created a Netherverse out of his very being, temporarily absorbing Earth 1 and 2 Universes

Forger scales to Mar Novu and Mobius.
 
Okay, but what is the reasoning for them keeping their 1-A tiers when descended far below the 6th Dimension?
 
In any case, can somebody remind me regarding our justifications for the current scaling for Perpetua and her children within the regular DC universes please?
Okay, but what is the reasoning for them keeping their 1-A tiers when descended far below the 6th Dimension?
The reasoning I gave for Perpetua being 1-A is her justifications below 6D. The Monitor Brothers aren't 1-A outside 6D
Hmm. It all seems very messy and incoherent to me.

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx

How do you think that we should handle this issue?
 
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