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Barbatos and Unexpected Mandrakk upgrade
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Well, I am not fiercely opposed to the Mandrakk change, but it seems far too inconsistent in relation to how he was portrayed in terms of power level, and we intend to revise the DC Comics cosmology relatively soon anyway, so it is likely better to just remove Mandrakk's "Tales of the Unexpected" statistics and replace them with a footnote regarding that he was portrayed in a too contradictory manner to scale properly
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He/Him- 1,998
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Can you elaborate on how he was portrayed inconsistently and in a contradictory manner? He only came in #6, #7, and #8. In #6 he one shotted Fuginaut. In #7 he killed Neon and Quench and showed no signs on injury. In #8 we see Hawkman and Firebrand being helpless until Neon and Quench came. After that we see Mandrakk saying Barbatos had a hard time with him, before Neon admitted he can't destroy Mandrakk and instead changed his physiology.
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All of the things that were previously discussed. There's no need to repeat the argument over again.
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He/Him- 1,998
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- #125
I addressed those arguments and the majority agreed with me. There's no need to use a footnote due to this.
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It's not decided via consensus, and responding to an argument doesn't mean you proved them wrong.
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He/Him- 1,998
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- #127
It usually is. Besides, deciding on something based on what a single disagreer said that another person happened to agree with is a really bad move. That's really low input. The general opinion has to be considered when doing this.
Sure but again, the general opinion has to be considered. If ten staff members agree to a thread, the one disagreer cannot say they cannot pass the thread because OP only responded to his arguments and didn't prove them wrong. We let others read over our arguments and decide which makes more sense to them.
Writing a footnote has far less input, without more agreements towards it, it's simply not a good move. The best move here is to wait for more staff to come.
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Does this involve you "bumping" the thread every day or few days in the complete absence of any continued discussion taking place? Because if so, I don't really agree that it's the best move.
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He/Him- 1,998
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- #129
It's definitely not a good move in the general sense, but the other choices are worse. One involves writing a footnote which has low input and a bad agree-to-disagree ratio, while the other involves doing all the edits without staff agreements, and I am sure you are not fine with that.
Other than this, the only way would be to individually ask staff members to give input rather than pinging them.
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Hmm. I suppose that these seem to be good points, if your interpretations are accurate.
Should we remove the extra statistics key for Mandrakk then, and assume that he at least had somewhat comparable power to previously in the "Tales of the Unexpected" story? We will hopefully revise the overall scaling relatively soon anyway.
Also, I assume that Barbatos would only scale to 1-A when he is present in The World Forger's part of the 6th Dimension. Otherwise the mechanics of the Snyder cosmology would turn far too incoherent.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Yeah, I can give you scans if you like.
I am fine either way, Mandrakk during the Unexpected was explicitly weaker than he was in FC, as he himself confirmed when he said he was broken(by the fall CAS gave him in FC) and just got enough power to escape the Dark Multiverse and into the main Multiverse. The author didn't clarify to us how weakened Mandrakk was, so that's unquantifiable.
Barbatos only has one key atm.
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Okay.
Okay. Perhaps we should change his statistics in that key to "Possibly 1-A" for the time being then?
Well, wasn't he the pet of The World Forger? If so, he should probably get an extra "In the 6th Dimension" key, or whatever The World Forger's extra key for this is called.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Kills Fuginaut, Quench, and Neon. Mandrakk then toys with Hawkman and Firebrand, who are helpless, until Neon and Quench comes. Mandrakk says Barbatos could hardly chain him, and then that he cannot be destroyed, something Neon agrees to, opting to change him instead.
I don't think that's necessary. As I have proven, Unexpected Mandrakk is explicitly 1-A, same as FC Mandrakk. He's just a weaker 1-A.
He's Forger's pet but he has never actually visited the Sixth Dimension, and he has implied before that his peak is in the Dark Multiverse, at the centre of which exists the World Forge.
Vondoom
Username Only- 395
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Can I see scans of the contradictory manners?
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Okay. Noted.
Okay. In itself that is probably not a problem, but...
Here is the problem: If the mechanics for Perpetua, The World Forger, et cetera, requires them to be in the 6th Dimension to reach a 1-A scale of power, it doesn't make any sense for Barbatos to reach that scale all the time, even when restricted to manifesting in regular universes. If he has genuinely never visited the 6th Dimension where The World Forger does most of his work, then he should probably only scale to whatever statistics Mandrakk is restricted to within regular universes.
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I was going by memory regarding Hawkman and Firebrand, but we have already passed that stage of our discussion.
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"Proven?"
You have not proven it, at all. You made an argument that relies upon a conclusion made in Dream's profile which isn't necessarily sound, and denying the clear anti-feats in the storyline by claiming Hawkman was amped when there's no evidence he was amped, by relying on a poor interpretation of something DT said to claim that it's "wiki standard" to default assume an amp in a higher realm, when he didn't say that and literally said the opposite.
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Well, I agree with your assessment, but the problem is that we haven't performed our DC Comics cosmology revision yet, so we currently likely have to follow what our character profile pages currently say for scaling purposes in this case.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Currently Perpetua's In-Multiverse form is also 1-A.
I wouldn't say it's a massive stretch, since Barbatos has shown to be superior to Forger by outright killing him. Plus if the WoG scan I provided in OP is legit, WF in Dark Multiverse>WF in 6D.
Thing is, WF doesn't actually do most of his work in 6D. WF's workplace is the World Forge, which exists at the centre of the Dark Multiverse.
Mandrakk hasn't visited regular universes to my knowledge. In FC he was in the Overvoid and Nil, and in the Unexpected he visited the Dark Multiverse and Nil.
It is not just necessarily sound but it is perfectly so. Nil being 1-A is listed in ALL of the Endless's profiles. It being rated as 1-A in the profiles PROVES Nil is accepted as 1-A. I didn't show a forum post, I showed a WIKI page. There's no better proof.
I proved he was amped multiple times and others actually agreed with me. Your denial is not an argument.
He said the opposite? Hold up, let me check the like count
Ok, you have one like
What's this? I have two? I wonder why people liked my post when my own evidence confirms the opposite of my argument.
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He/Him- 1,998
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I didn't start it. I wasn't even talking to him. These are perfectly fine for you?
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Ok, I will edit it out
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Because people like comments which support the characters they like. Argument ad populum does you no favors here.
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I think in this case it's more likely that they read through our arguments and saw DT's quote supporting what I said.
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I bet you do.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Unfortunately no, Ant said that normal member opinions don't count and only staff opinions count. The issue here is that he's the only staff member that has come to this thread, so unless more staff members come, nothing's gonna happen.
Yeah, at the centre of it
Vondoom
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You can tag them yourself then.
Is it a stretch to assume Barbados is stronger there then? He did kill World Forger there and world forger said to batman his weaker in lesser worlds though but still...plus he could imprison Mandrakk in the Dark multiverse.
It's just my personal opinion.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Can't, normal members can't tag. Ant tagged them but they didn't respond.
No I do not believe it is a stretch. To the contrary, I think it's the truth because Dark Nights Metal had a lot of statements that implied Barbatos is at his peak there.
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Vondoom
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Nice,I just personally thought so.
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Perpetua-
Anti-Monitor-
Monitor-
Forger scales to Mar Novu and Mobius.
Anti-Monitor-
Monitor-
Forger scales to Mar Novu and Mobius.
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The reasoning I gave for Perpetua being 1-A is her justifications below 6D. The Monitor Brothers aren't 1-A outside 6D
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Hmm. It all seems very messy and incoherent to me.
@Firestorm808 @Deagonx
How do you think that we should handle this issue?
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Mandrakk or Perpetua?
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