Barbatos and Unexpected Mandrakk upgrade

[Deagonx]

Where?

Hawkman, for one.

Just say you hate DC

No, I just like DC enough that we want it to be accurately rated.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

this falls under the hippopotamus fallacy

 

[Transcending]

Hawkman, for one.

Mandrakk was stomping Hawkman, and even then, Hawkman wasn't a "regular superhero" at the time. He was in Nil, so he was dimensionally amped.

 

[Deagonx]

He was in Nil, so he was dimensionally amped.

Is there any evidence that simply going to Nil makes you strong enough to contend with a 1-A being?

The whole team was teleported to Nil because of a small piece of Nth metal (not Element X). I find it hard to believe all of them were amped infinitely by such an event and I don't think it's the most realistic interpretation.

 

[Antvasima]

Even then the majority has voted against waiting, so we shouldn't do it.

It seems far too exaggerated and unreliable for my tastes.

Where?

From what I recall there were far less powerful characters present in the fight against him, that were able to help out, but it has been a long while since I read the story.

Just say you hate DC

Things are usually not nearly as conveniently black and white simplistic as that.

I love many of the characters and stories from the Post-Crisis era, but strongly dislike how Dan Didio systematically destroyed the company and its continuity together with Jim Lee. In addition, I have matter of fact evaluated that there has been an extreme lack of competent editorial control in terms of semi-coherent power levels for the characters over the decades.

And again, I have a mental disorder that gives me extremely limited mental filters, so lying comes extremely unnaturally to me. Meaning, I have been honest regarding my viewpoints in this regard. Ad hominems are extremely unwarranted.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there any evidence that simply going to Nil makes you strong enough to contend with a 1-A being?

The whole team was teleported to Nil because of a small piece of Nth metal (not Element X). I find it hard to believe all of them were amped infinitely by such an event and I don't think it's the most realistic interpretation.

Agreed. Nothing in the story remotely implied such an extreme power-up. The writer likely just didn't care about staying true to previously established concepts.

 

[Transcending]

It seems far too exaggerated and unreliable for my tastes.

Shouldn't be relevant, Argument from Incredulity exists.

From what I recall there were far less powerful characters present in the fight against him, that were able to help out, but it has been a long while since I read the story.

Mandrakk was stomping everyone, the only people who put up a fight was Neon and Alden, and even then they admitted they couldn't destroy him and had to change his biology.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Mandrakk was not presented as anywhere near the scale of threat that he was previously, so I would rather just remove his extra statistics key if there is this much controversy surrounding it.

 

[Transcending]

Is there any evidence that simply going to Nil makes you strong enough to contend with a 1-A being?

We know he would be amped, and this fight itself would be the evidence that the amp reaches 1-A levels.

The whole team was teleported to Nil because of a small piece of Nth metal (not Element X). I find it hard to believe all of them were amped infinitely by such an event and I don't think it's the most realistic interpretation.

That's still Argument from Incredulity, as it happens to be the case.

Plus as I said before, Hawkman hardly put up a fight.

 

[Deagonx]

Mandrakk was stomping everyone, the only people who put up a fight was Neon and Alden, and even then they admitted they couldn't destroy him and had to change his biology.

Regardless of how one-sided may have looked, the fact that they were involved in the fight at all is extremely problematic. It would be comparable to a regular human attempting to fight the galaxy itself. The fact that Mandrakk even needed to acknowledge their presence, and was physically fighting them, is completely unrealistic given the purported gap in power.

We know he would be amped

How do we know that? I don't know of any information that suggests you need to be amped to go to Nil.

 

[Transcending]

Well, Mandrakk was not presented as anywhere near the scale of threat that he was previously, so I would rather just remove his extra statistics key if there is this much controversy surrounding it.

There isn't much controversy, the majority agree with it. Only two people don't

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if Mandrakk was more than an uncountable infinity ^ an uncountable infinity times stronger than Hawkman, the latter shouldn't have been able to do anything at all. This entire argument seems like an idiotic time-waster to me.

 

[Transcending]

Regardless of how one-sided may have looked, the fact that they were involved in the fight at all is extremely problematic

Them being involved is irrelevant if they didn't manage to do any actual damage.

It would be comparable to a regular human attempting to fight the galaxy itself

The human can certainly try to fight the galaxy, he just wouldn't be able to do anything. Same thing here.

The fact that Mandrakk even needed to acknowledge their presence, and was physically fighting them, is completely unrealistic given the purported gap in power.

It's not unrealistic because again, Hawkman was AMPED. Mandrakk acknowledging their presence is irrelevant, why would Mandrakk ignore a guy talking to him? Plus Mandrakk might have wanted to feed him

 

[Beyond_transcending]

The heroes would be amped in Nil

 

[Transcending]

Yes, if Mandrakk was more than an uncountable infinity ^ an uncountable infinity times stronger than Hawkman, the latter shouldn't have been able to do anything at all. This entire argument seems like an idiotic time-waster to me.

Show scans of Hawkman doing some damage, and again, Hawkman was amped. Please don't ignore the amped part

 

[Deagonx]

Someone is going to have to explain to me why we are taking it for granted that being in Nil makes you amped, because I am not aware of such information.

 

[Antvasima]

There isn't much controversy, the majority agree with it. Only two people don't

One of the people who disagree is one of the most knowledgeable DC Comics experts that we have available, and the other is at the very least highly knowledgeable about the verse, and technically the highest ranked staff member here in combination.

In addition, again, this relates to an absolutely massively extreme tier that is completely unsupported by the story in question, so I am firmly rejecting this revision and it will not be accepted no matter how much you continue to pester me about it. My apologies.

 

[Transcending]

Someone is going to have to explain to me why we are taking it for granted that being in Nil makes you amped, because I am not aware of such information.

Donttalk confirmed that existing in higher realms increase your tiers. Plus DC itself has shown people getting amped in higher realms like Boomtubes and Superman getting 4-D vision in bleed(Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1)

 

[Transcending]

One of the people who disagree is one of the most knowledgeable DC Comics experts that we have available

The people who agreed are also highly knowledgeable.

and the other is at the very least highly knowledgeable about the verse, and technically the highest ranked staff member here in combination

Having knowledge≠Being able to use it in the best way(for example, you have to admit Xearsay is knowledgeable but you don't agree with him using it properly).

In addition, again, this relates to an absolutely massively extreme tier that is completely unsupported by the story in question

I showed proof it is supported and you haven't countered it, like show me where you addressed the amped part.

so I am firmly rejecting this revision

So one disagreement, cool. Lots of other people have agreed with it, I still don't see why one staff member's opinion it enough to completely reject a thread.

 

[Deagonx]

Donttalk confirmed that existing in higher realms increase your tiers.

Without seeing what he said specifically I can't address his reasoning or whether it applies here, but DT is just a person. Being staff doesn't mean your opinions become site standards.

Plus DC itself has shown people getting amped in higher realms like Boomtubes and Superman getting 4-D vision in bleed(Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1)

4-D vision isn't an amp, and the boomtube concept is for the realms of the New Gods, not Nil. There's no reason to transpose that concept to Nil without in-comic evidence.

 

[Transcending]

So one disagreement, cool. Lots of other people have agreed with it, I still don't see why one staff member's opinion it enough to completely reject a thread.

Plus I will note that a lot of the arguments of the people who disagree fall under Argument from Incredulity

 

[Transcending]

Without seeing what he said specifically I can't address his reasoning or whether it applies here, but DT is just a person. Being staff doesn't mean your opinions become site standards.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/1-a-godsphere.124146/post-4128848

DT was acknowledged for his tiering by @Antvasima himself. The same person also said he was better than Ultima at tiering, who is our consultant. The literal consultant.

4-D vision isn't an amp

Still technically is, just not a physical one

and the boomtube concept is for the realms of the New Gods, not Nil. There's no reason to transpose that concept to Nil without in-comic evidence.

Actually there is. The increase in size itself is evidence.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

A increase in size is definitely an amp, given the size difference between Nil and everything below.

 

[Xearsay]

Mandrakk was literally toying with Hawkman. He wasn’t actually going all out. He was playing with him like food and taunting him the entire time.

 

[Deagonx]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/1-a-godsphere.124146/post-4128848

Uh, he doesn't say anything like what you claim.

You: "DontTalk confirmed existing in a higher realm increases your tier."

DT: "It depends a lot on the context. Simply being present means nothing, especially if we are talking about things like higher-dimensional spaces."

Actually there is. The increase in size itself is evidence.

It's not even clear if the concept of "size" applies in the manner you are suggesting.

 

[Transcending]

Also Mandrakk was literally toying with Hawkman. He wasn’t actually going all out. He was playing with him like food.

THANK YOU. Hawkman existing there is irrelevant, he failed to do any relevant damage and was getting casually toyed on

 

[Transcending]

Uh, he doesn't say anything like what you claim.

However, for things like reality-fiction differences where a lower level of reality is just some random book, being able to function as a normal human that is able to do normal stuff like lift books, on that higher plane, can be a feat that allows scaling. If that is the case some other being bringing you to that plane can also be seen as power boost.

Nil is currently accepted to have a qualitative superiority, otherwise it wouldn't be 1-A.

It's not even clear if the concept of "size" applies in the manner you are suggesting.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Deagonx]

Nil is currently accepted to have a qualitative superiority, otherwise it wouldn't be 1-A.

We don't have profiles for realms, so you are going to have to explain what this means and how it is accepted.

More importantly, going to a qualitatively superior realm is still possible without obtaining that same superiority yourself. DC has demonstrated this numerous times.

Can you elaborate?

The concept of space and time are irregular in Nil. It isn't as though they just literally expanded to the size of universal super-giants.

 

[Transcending]

We don't have profiles for realms, so you are going to have to explain what this means and how it is accepted.

The profiles of the Endless are proof it is accepted as 1-A. Their scaling from this is also used for other characters like Lucifer, who is in turn used to scale many characters like Michael.

More importantly, going to a qualitatively superior realm is still possible without obtaining that same superiority yourself. DC has demonstrated this numerous times.

Example?

The concept of space and time are irregular in Nil. It isn't as though they just literally expanded to the size of universal super-giants.

We know it is irregular but we don't know how it is irregular. Saying they weren't literally expanded is an assumption. Plus by this logic nothing 1-A or above would work size-wise because space and time functions differently that high.

 

[Deagonx]

Example?

Shazam and Green Lantern went to the Fifth Dimension without being 5-D. They appeared flat to the native residents, and didn't have any power, but they were still able to exist within and navigate the Fifth Dimension.

Another example is Supergirl, she went to Apokolips without a Boom Tube and appeared small to the residents there.

Plus by this logic nothing 1-A or above would work size-wise because space and time functions differently that high.

Pretty much all 1-A beings simply transcend spacetime.

 

[Transcending]

Shazam and Green Lantern went to the Fifth Dimension without being 5-D. They appeared flat to the native residents, and didn't have any power, but they were still able to exist within and navigate the Fifth Dimension.

That was specifically due to magic which the wiki itself says defies physics. Plus as you said, they were 2D in the realm, Hawkman was 3D in Nil.

Another example is Supergirl, she went to Apokolips without a Boom Tube and appeared small to the residents there.

I have some sort of memory of this happening but don't specifically remember it, can you shows scans?

Pretty much all 1-A beings simply transcend spacetime.

Nay. Aleph 2 dimensions is 1-A, Aleph Omega is 1-A+, Inaccessible is High 1-A, and Mahlo is 0.

 

[Deagonx]

That was specifically due to magic which the wiki itself says defies physics

That doesn't change the fact that they existed there without being qualitatively superior. The manner in which they accomplished this is secondary to the fact that it's clearly possible.

Plus as you said, they were 2D in the realm, Hawkman was 3D in Nil.

I didn't say that, and they were not 2-D in the realm. They were 3-D, but the realm was 5-D.

 

[Transcending]

That doesn't change the fact that they existed there without being qualitatively superior. The manner in which they accomplished this is secondary to the fact that it's clearly possible.

Wrong, the fact that magic defies physics means the qualitative superiority properties wouldn't apply, being physics based. There was nothing suggesting Hawkman was amped by magic, so the standard properties apply to him.

I didn't say that, and they were not 2-D in the realm. They were 3-D, but the realm was 5-D.

Even if they were somehow flat and not 2D, Hawkman wasn't flat in Nil.

 

[Deagonx]

Wrong, the fact that magic defies physics means the qualitative superiority properties wouldn't apply, being physics based. There was nothing suggesting Hawkman was amped by magic, so the standard properties apply to him.

Okay, so let's be extremely clear here, do you concede the fact that you can in fact exist within a qualitatively superior realm without being qualitatively superior?

Even if they were somehow flat and not 2D, Hawkman wasn't flat in Nil.

Because Nil isn't 5-D.

 

[Transcending]

Okay, so let's be extremely clear here, do you concede the fact that you can in fact exist within a qualitatively superior realm without being qualitatively superior?

In specific circumstances, ig.

Because Nil isn't 5-D.

How is that relevant? Nil is still a qualitatively superior area.

 

[Deagonx]

In specific circumstances, ig.

Okay, then why would it be a default assumption that it's an amp rather than something else?

How is that relevant? Nil is still a qualitatively superior area.

The reason Shazam and GL were "flat" is because they were in a higher-dimensional realm. They were 3-D, but appear flat to 5-D beings. It wasn't due to their "lack of qualitatively superiority" and I was not suggesting that going to a higher realm without being amped always makes you appear flat.

 

[Transcending]

Okay, then why would it be a default assumption that it's an amp rather than something else

Because Hawkman didn't reach there with magic, he reached there with nth metal

The reason Shazam and GL were "flat" is because they were in a higher-dimensional realm. They were 3-D, but appear flat to 5-D beings. It wasn't due to their "lack of qualitatively superiority"

What? Them existing in a higher dimension without being higher-dimensional themselves IS proof they weren't qualitatively superior.

However, by this are you conceding that higher dimensions in DC have qualitative superiorities?

and I was not suggesting that going to a higher realm without being amped always makes you appear flat.

You may not have been, but there's no proof you can go to a higher dimension without being higher dimensional yourself and not be flat. Saying you can would be an assumption. And again, they still had to defy physics, which we have no proof Hawkman did.

 

[Deagonx]

Because Hawkman didn't reach there with magic, he reached there with nth metal

You're missing my point. Regardless of what means Shazam might have used to reach the Fifth Dimension, the important part was the proof of concept: That you can be transported into a higher realm without being amped. Who is to say Nth Metal doesn't work the same way? Why is the default assumption that Nth Metal must have amped them infinitely, when Nth Metal has never been shown to have that level of power?

What? Them existing in a higher dimension without being higher-dimensional themselves IS proof they weren't qualitatively superior.

I don't know where we crossed wires here, but that's not what I am saying. The flatness is unique to the Fifth Dimension, it's not an inherent trait of anyone in a higher realm without being amped.

However, by this are you conceding that higher dimensions in DC have qualitative superiorities?

Depends entirely on the author and storyline.

You may not have been, but there's no proof you can go to a higher dimension without being higher dimensional yourself and not be flat. Saying you can would be an assumption. And again, they still had to defy physics, which we have no proof Hawkman did.

It's not even clear if physics apply in Nil, and again, I reject the idea that we should assume by default that amps were used and not some other method.

 

[Transcending]

You're missing my point. Regardless of what means Shazam might have used to reach the Fifth Dimension, the important part was the proof of concept: That you can be transported into a higher realm without being amped. Who is to say Nth Metal doesn't work the same way?

Who is to say nth metal DOES work that way? You are adding an extra assumption that it works with magic. Plus again, even when they reached 5-D with magic they were flat. So the fact nth metal also made them look proper, something that never happened before, would be adding an extra assumption. That's 2 extra assumptions.

Why is the default assumption that Nth Metal must have amped them infinitely, when Nth Metal has never been shown to have that level of power?

This instance itself can be the evidence for that.

I don't know where we crossed wires here, but that's not what I am saying. The flatness is unique to the Fifth Dimension, it's not an inherent trait of anyone in a higher realm without being amped.

Was it ever stated that the flatness is unique to 5-D? Plus you said in the general discussion thread that Allen Adam viewed lower dimensions as flat.

Depends entirely on the author and storyline.

Canonically?

It's not even clear if physics apply in Ni

Going by the current tiering standards, physics apply everywhere.

and again, I reject the idea that we should assume by default that amps were used and not some other method

As I showed before, that's too reliant on assumptions. Occam's Razor exists.

 

[Deagonx]

Who is to say nth metal DOES work that way? You are adding an extra assumption that it works with magic.

Assuming it gives an amp is also an assumption.

This instance itself can be the evidence for that.

That's circular reasoning. We are determining whether the amp is present at all.

Was it ever stated that the flatness is unique to 5-D?

You're missing the point, I am responding to you pointing out that Hawkman wasn't flat. I am explaining why his lack of "flatness" is not relevant nor indicative of an amp.

Going by the current tiering standards, physics apply everywhere.

What?

As I showed before, that's too reliant on assumptions. Occam's Razor exists.

Assuming there's an amp is also an assumption. Also, Occam's Razor is a heuristic, not a law of logic.