Mandrakk Updated Profile

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This thread will primarily focus on what Mandrakk has in his current profile that needs fixing due to inconsistencies, contradictions, and the actual powers that Mandrakk should have.

• Abstract Existence(Type 1) > Abstract Existence(Type 2):

The reason due to this change would have to come from the idea that Mandrakk is not an actual abstraction of his own. As explained what need for Abstract Existence (Type 1):

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

The actuality of Mandrakk at least when explained by Grant describe its relationship with Superman are two opposing ditcohoimes representing each duality until all contradictions resolve in unity in the Overvoid. (IGN Interview: Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison)

In the archetypal world of the Monitor Sphere, these beings are allegories to the writers, and in Nil is where these ideas and forms surrender to the Overvoid. (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol.1 #1)

This is what's needed for Tier 2 which explains the nature of Mandrakk much better:

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

Mandrakk is a representation of Evil when the End comes. It is not necessarily Evil itself but a prime manifestation of an evil creature. (IGN Interview: Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison)

• Beyond-Dimensional Existence(Type 2) > Beyond-Dimensional Existence(Type 1)

Mandrakk for the most part comes pretty conclusive with the idea of Typer 2 BDE due to many factors. For one these beings from Nil are non-corporal they exist as artificial intelligence-taking form but aren't necessarily greater than the spatiotemporal features. (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol.1 #2)

• Large Size(Type 11) > Large Size(Type 10)

Mandrakk is large but his not large enough to continue be stacked with “infinite.” From the Monitor World, everything is more profound, and Limbo seen from there is small. He is bigger than the conventional Multiverse but that's about it. (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol.1 #2)

• Remove Existence Eraser

Mandrakk is a part of the Monitor and is represented as an idea. The idea of Mandrakk is a cosmic vampire that was erased when pushed into the Overvoid.

The Void mentioned by Ultraman is not reffering to the Overvoid. It's referring to the Monitor Worlds since Nil one of the place is known as “the blank, the nil, the gone, and as well 5555 words to describe “nothing” which would also include “void.” (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol.1 #2)

 

[Deagonx]

This all looks well-reasoned.

 

[Joshn05]

I agree. Most of this seems fine to me to implement.

 

[Xearsay]

Mandrakk is a representation of Evil when the End comes. It is not necessarily Evil itself but a prime manifestation of an evil creature. (IGN Interview: Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison)

The link is broken.

I don’t really understand your point here. Grant doesn’t say Mandrakk is manifestation of an evil creature. Grant calls Mandrakk and CAS two big concepts and then goes along to list all the concepts that they are. Furthermore, the idea that Mandrakk is only a manifestation of an evil creature would basically be saying that Mandrakks less of an abstract evil than Darkseid who has abstract existence type 1. Which would contradict Morrison describing Mandrakk as the ultimate evil when comparing him to Darkseid.

Morrison - “Darkseid's the kind of apocalyptic evil, the Biblical evil that spreads itself through whole cultures and brings them to their knees. Dr. Hurt's evil is the fear of the bad person out there who knows everything about you, someone who hates you, wants to f--k up your life, has the resources and cannot be reasoned with. And then Mandrakk is actually the ultimate evil where there's no hope. The grave. He's entropy, I suppose. No matter how hard you try, this entity will consume the universe and you'll be sucked into the gaping, bulging Black Hole of Mandrakk.”

Mandrakk is a part of the Monitor and is represented as an idea. The idea of Mandrakk is a cosmic vampire that was erased when pushed into the Overvoid.

The Void mentioned by Ultraman is not reffering to the Overvoid. It's referring to the Monitor Worlds since Nil one of the place is known as “the blank, the nil, the gone, and as well 5555 words to describe “nothing” which would also include “void.” (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol.1 #2)

I agree with the removal of this ability however, Mandrakk wasn’t really erased. He just became one with the Overvoid.

Furthermore, “the void” is a description that was used specifically, to refer to the Overvoid throughout Superman Beyond. Sure the word void can be synonymous to the words used to describe Nil, however the story already established that Monitor Mind is the void.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don’t really understand this point. Grant doesn’t say Mandrakk is a representation of evil. Grant calls Mandrakk and CAS two big concepts and then goes into all the concepts that they are. Furthermore, the idea that Mandrakk is only a representation of evil would basically be saying that Mandrakks less of an abstract evil than Darkseid who has abstract existence type 1. Which would contradict Morrison describing Mandrakk as the ultimate evil when comparing him to Darkseid.

I never suggest because he's a “representation” of a concept that it would degrade him to below Darkseid. The interview already mentions that Evil is represented differently with Mandrakk being the ultimate pinnacle of that concept, not the concept itself.

The fight with Superman is of two beings that represented the opposite trait of each other. Those concepts mentioned are just to contrast the beings, they don't necessarily embody all those. Given these two are in a bigger story and a bigger war between ink and paper and these two concepts represent all the concepts between two larger ideals:

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, and the more I'm getting into it!

As he is explaining the dynamic between the two and how the opposite contrast. The exact thing that duality is to these conceptualized entities that help us understand perception and symmetry. If they are these “concepts” then they would be treated differently, it's literally Grant saying “If Superman were Good then Mandrakk would be Evil.” It's him defining the relationship between the two not saying they are all those concepts. The Flaw would technically be all these concepts because that is where the concepts as well as the contradictions come from. Given you don't use the entities with the term interchangeably and are only mentioned to be these when their relationship is being defined.

Mandrakk being emotional after killing his wife an act of remorse happened despite being supposedly being itself. Not to mention the Flaw has existed before both and these stories that Dax saw would have encompassed most of these ideals. He saw concepts of war, heroism, good, bad, and all else in the Flaw in which he “should be” yet these concepts exist separately from him and some are older than him.

Morrison - “Darkseid's the kind of apocalyptic evil, the Biblical evil that spreads itself through whole cultures and brings them to their knees. Dr. Hurt's evil is the fear of the bad person out there who knows everything about you, someone who hates you, wants to f--k up your life, has the resources and cannot be reasoned with. And then Mandrakk is actually the ultimate evil where there's no hope. The grave. He's entropy, I suppose. No matter how hard you try, this entity will consume the universe and you'll be sucked into the gaping, bulging Black Hole of Mandrakk.”

There is evil besides Mandrakk. Mandrakk being the ultimate one does not mean he is the concept itself. He literally mentions him as a pointer after referring to him when there is no hope. When the Universe is about to be consumed. As a concept you define every part, there needn't be a situation for you to consider what part of the Evil you represent. Plus Grant never said Mandrakk encompasses all of them, more so that Mandrakk is the highest form of Evil. Multiverse/Stories already seen Evil before Mandrakk was sent to investigate it.

Also, put Mandrakk's idea was engulfed and backed into the Ovevoid. That means all those concepts would die alongside him yet they don't and Evil still existed as well as all the others. The same applies to the Thought Robot.

I agree with the removal of this ability however, Mandrakk wasn’t really erased. He just became one with the Overvoid.

If you erase an idea then it becomes obsolete. Like if it were Dream instead then he wouldn't be “Dream” because that idea was erased. “Mandrakk” wasn't always a thing it become a concept after the split where it that something once was Dax Novu. So if Mandrakk wasn't erased like you said then he would either be Dax Novu again or he did get erased because Mandrakk does not exist as constant by itself.

His whole being was gone where the Overvoid engulfed him until even his idea was gone. From the fact they had to mention “even the idea of him” would imply he was gone on a fundamental level. Everything resolves back into Unity which just mean back to the Overvoid where ideas become “nothing” again and if Mandrakk idea was forgotten because he was engulfed and became nothing then he clearly was destroyed.

Furthermore, “the void” is a description that was used specifically to refer to the Overvoid throughout Superman Beyond. Sure the word void can be synonymous to the words used to describe Nil, however the story already established that Monitor Mind is the void.

Your points are counterintuitive. You mention that the Void can be Nil but you simply say that the description was used to describe the Overvoid despite the fact we see what happen if Mandrakk enters the Overvoid. The Void within that context was referring to Nil, the home of the Monitors which is also “void” and it’s a void that they can survive.

 

[Xearsay]

I never suggest because he's a “representation” of a concept that it would degrade him to below Darkseid. The interview already mentions that Evil is represented differently with Mandrakk being the ultimate pinnacle of that concept, not the concept itself.

It would be the result of your conclusion. As you’re promoting Mandrakk be downgraded to AE type 2 while Darkseid who is a lesser archetypal being on a lower level of reality is AE type 1.

Plus Grant never said Mandrakk encompasses all of them, more so that Mandrakk is the highest form of Evil. Multiverse/Stories already seen Evil before Mandrakk was sent to investigate it.

Well for starters Ultraman calls Mandrakk universal evil as a living thing in comic. Second, as I said before Darkseid who is a lesser evil than Mandrakk has type 1 AE. Meaning Mandrakk can’t be type 2 as that would imply he’s a lesser evil than Darkseid who is type 1.

Also I think the cosmology aspects are important to mention here. Morrison has said that as things get further out into the Void they become more archetypal. For example, the New Gods are type 1 AE’s on their level of reality. However on the Monitor Spheres level of reality, there would be even more archetypal primal forms and beings of pure thought(CAS) inhabiting an even more fundamental world. So to promote the idea that the Monitor Spheres level of existence houses less abstract beings than the Godspheres, would go against the cosmology itself.

Everything resolves back into Unity which just mean back to the Overvoid where ideas become “nothing” again and if Mandrakk idea was forgotten because he was engulfed and became nothing then he clearly was destroyed.

I think it’s more than what you’re saying here. Morrison thought of the Overvoid as God and God to Morrison was the idea of a holistic consciousness, where all things are experienced and conceptualized from a perspective all at once.

Morrison - “god’ is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to present all at once. ‘God’ is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully. The entire universe, including the scary, evil bits, is a thought ‘God’ is thinking, right now.”

There’s more statements like this btw, with even further descriptions given like a state of “oneness” and how once you enter this state, the mind blurs into a direct experience with the totality of all consciousness. This is why I think Mandrakk wasn’t really destroyed, rather he instead achieved unity with Monitor Mind.

You mention that the Void can be Nil but you simply say that the description was used to describe the Overvoid despite the fact we see what happen if Mandrakk enters the Overvoid.

I kind of addressed part of what you’re saying above ^. Also yes indeed the “void” was established as the Overvoid. Like… Multiple times.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It would be the result of your conclusion. As you’re promoting Mandrakk be downgraded to AE type 2 while Darkseid who is a lesser archetypal being on a lower level of reality is AE type 1.

My intention when making this was to let Mandrakk get the powers that fit his character. It doesn't pertain to Darkseid being superior in power due to him having Type 2 because it's evidently clear that Mandrakk is stronger.

Well for starters Ultraman calls Mandrakk universal evil as a living thing in comic. Second, as I said before Darkseid who is a lesser evil than Mandrakk has type 1 AE. Meaning Mandrakk can’t be type 2 as that would imply he’s a lesser evil than Darkseid who is type 1.

This is a “Mandrakk” profile update suggestion not “Darkseid.” Ultraman calling him that does not really pertain to anything other than his desire to follow something that fits his ideal.

Also, know that Ultraman is referring to what he believes in. Radical Evil and Universal Evil being his primary focus could innate that Mandrakk simply is the sort of Evil he was looking for. Evil still can exist outside Mandrakk and it has been shown long before he was extended to look over the Flaw. Hence why he mentions he didn't believe in that until he learned of Mandrakk.

Also I think the cosmology aspects are important to mention here. Morrison has said that as things get further out into the Void they become more archetypal. For example, the New Gods are type 1 AE’s on their level of reality. However on the Monitor Spheres level of reality, there would be even more archetypal primal forms and beings of pure thought(CAS) inhabiting an even more fundamental world. So to promote the idea that the Monitor Spheres level of existence houses less abstract beings than the Godspheres, would go against the cosmology itself.

I never mention these as dismissing factors, so I don't know why you're bringing this up as if it changes what the Monitors nature are. They're archetypal ideas as I have already mentioned but I also put what is needed to grant the different types of AE. Mandrakk would have to represent an ideal to the fullest in order for him to have that tier yet when his “idea” was erased which in this case let's call it “Evil.” We see that Evil still can exist without Mandrakk.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

He lacks a true physical form but affecting Evil doesn't mean it affects Mandrakk and vice versa. Not to mention he doesn't act through avatars or him being “Evil” itself in his most “true state.” He simply is an idea taken from there is no truer to it and he represents Evil in an entropic manner if he were Evil itself then everyone's mention of others being Evil would be part of himself. Yet he represent a part of the Evil that should be him?

I think it’s more than what you’re saying here. Morrison thought of the Overvoid as God and God to Morrison was the idea of a holistic consciousness, where all things are experienced and conceptualized from a perspective all at once.

That's specifically referring to the Overvoid and it doesn't really change what I said. He was engulfed by it and the very “idea” of him was erased and that “idea” is Mandrakk. These are beings that represent “ideas.”

Your point also has to be put in the perspective that someone can even survive in it and know of the nature of the abstract infinite intelligence. Plus what changes the meaning behind the erasure that you could convey from your vague interpretation of Morrisonstatement that would be supported by the comics?

Morrison - “god’ is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to present all at once. ‘God’ is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully. The entire universe, including the scary, evil bits, is a thought ‘God’ is thinking, right now.”

This means what for Mandrakk exactly? This is showing us what the Overvoid is and how everything is part of his thought which would include Mandrakk. Nother forms of thought can go pass the Source Wall anyway.

There’s more statements like this btw, with even further descriptions given like a state of “oneness” and how once you enter this state, the mind blurs into a direct experience with the totality of all consciousness. This is why I think Mandrakk wasn’t really destroyed, rather he instead achieved unity with Monitor Mind

Oneness is the idealistic approach that both parts are represented through it. The Flaw defines the Overvoid as “infinitesimal everything” to the “infinite nothingness.” So unless the Overvoid represents both the Flaw and Nothing then it would be a baseless claim to call it “oneness” based on a statement describing the nature of the “Overvoid.”

Your point for Mandrakk makes no sense. First off Mandrakk's “idea” was erased, what part of Mandrakk would exist where he would resolve in unity with the Overvoid? The Unity is referring to the being and the Overvoid is “Nothing.” So when Grant tells us “all contradictions resolve in unity” just means they go back to the “nothing” from where they can. Once you become “nothing” you're literally.....nothing. Also, you can only be a part of Oneness, not itself when you unify. You'll always be “something else” to it. Mandrakk was gone and became nothing where his “idea” was resolved into “unity” in other words, he was erased from Existence.

I kind of addressed part of what you’re saying above ^. Also yes indeed the “void” was established as the Overvoid. Like… Multiple times

Yes, the Overvoid is the “void” but that statement of Ultraman was referring to the Monitor Sphere where he resides. Nothing can just enter the Overvoid, and when he did his idea was erased. If he did then that would mean he either one was recreated from the time he build the bridge or he is immune to the Void which contracts the comics. So his idea was erased twice and he came back each time? Yeah.....no it was definitely talking about the Monitor Sphere.

 

[Xearsay]

My intention when making this was to let Mandrakk get the powers that fit his character. It doesn't pertain to Darkseid being superior in power due to him having Type 2 because it's evidently clear that Mandrakk is stronger.

It might not be your intention but the contradiction is still relevant to bring up. Mandrakk is a more archetypal being than Darkseid who is already a type 1 AE.

Also, know that Ultraman is referring to what he believes in. Radical Evil and Universal Evil being his primary focus could innate that Mandrakk simply is the sort of Evil he was looking for. Evil still can exist outside Mandrakk and it has been shown long before he was extended to look over the Flaw. Hence why he mentions he didn't believe in that until he learned of Mandrakk.

Sure Mandrakk is possibly the sort of the evil Ultraman was looking for. However that doesn’t really alter my main point being that Ultraman still called Mandrakk “universal evil as a living thing.” Also according to the Multiversity origin story, Dax Novus transformation into Mandrakk the universal evil, happened before the beginning of DC’s history. Meaning he became an abstraction before DC’s story even got going.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

I think Mandrakk fits this description fine. He is living universal evil within a fundamental world of primal forms and beings of pure thought, and can manifests himself into reality via avatars like with Rox Ogama who became a lesser Mandrakk.

So unless the Overvoid represents both the Flaw and Nothing then it would be a baseless claim to call it “oneness” based on a statement describing the nature of the “Overvoid.”

The oneness statement stemmed from Grant Morrison’s interview. It wasn’t a claim I was making, it’s something that was actually said in the interview. That’s why Mandrakk falling into the Overvoid until even his idea became lost isn’t really Mandrakk being erased but rather Mandrakk being unified with the Overvoid/God. As said by Morrison, within the state of spaceless and timeless conscious, one blurs into direct experience with the some totality of all consciousness that has ever been or will be.

Nothing can just enter the Overvoid, and when he did his idea was erased. If he did then that would mean he either one was recreated from the time he build the bridge or he is immune to the Void which contracts the comics.

For a sec, let’s assume your interpretation that void is referring to Nil and that Mandrakk was actually inside of Nil building a bridge to the lower “Multiverse.”

1. If Mandrakk was locked in some monument in Nil, how could he build a bridge to the Multiverse in the first place?
2. Since the lower Multiverse already exists inside of Nil as a shattered jar, why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge to it?
3. Why would they say Mandrakks “crawling up” if he’s already locked in some tomb above the lower Multiverse?
4. Why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge into the lower Multiverse if he was going to just destroy Nil and take the whole damn structure down with it anyway?

Are you now seeing why this interpretation just doesn’t make any sense? On top of it contradicting the Overvoid being already identified as the “void” it simply doesn’t even make sense. That’s why it is much more plausible for Mandrakk to have been in the Overvoid and building a bridge into Multiverse where he would enter through the basalt monument in Nil.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It might not be your intention but the contradiction is still relevant to bring up. Mandrakk is a more archetypal being than Darkseid who is already a type 1 AE.

I never agreed to Darkseid being AE(Type 1) because this thread was focused on Mandrakk. So I wouldn't scale Mandrakk past Darkseid to assume your logic of Mandrakk is more archetypal than Darkseid who is Type 1. I was explaining how Mandrakk fit AE Type 2 rather better than he was within his current notion of AE.

Sure Mandrakk is possibly the sort of the evil Ultraman was looking for. However that doesn’t really alter my main point being that Ultraman still called Mandrakk “universal evil as a living thing.” Also according to the Multiversity origin story, Dax Novus transformation into Mandrakk the universal evil, happened before the beginning of DC’s history. Meaning he became an abstraction before DC’s story even got going.

It never stated that Mandrakk was there before the DC stories. The Overvoid created the conflict generator before he sent Mandrakk not to mention it said Dax catalogs what once was a Universe became a Multiverse which he kept track of this timeline after the transition from what was once a Universe. Your scan literally says the opposite of what you claim.

Also, the event of Crisis on Infinite Earth happened before Dax was sent which makes sense because of the fact the Universe had become a Multiverse after that event. The Overvoid literally was shocked by that story which is the whole point of why he sent Dax. So no...he doesn't predate the DC History.

I think Mandrakk fits this description fine. He is living universal evil within a fundamental world of primal forms and beings of pure thought, and can manifests himself into reality via avatars like with Rox Ogama who became a lesser Mandrakk.

His Evil clearly wasn't “fundamental” enough since entropy as well as other forms of Evil still existed despite you claiming he should be Evil itself as the abstraction. He just represents a sort of Evil just like any other villain. Mandrakk being stronger does not make him the very concept itself. Rox was just tainted with his essence, which wasn't his avatar.

The oneness statement stemmed from Grant Morrison’s interview. It wasn’t a claim I was making, it’s something that was actually said in the interview. That’s why Mandrakk falling into the Overvoid until even his idea became lost isn’t really Mandrakk being erased but rather Mandrakk being unified with the Overvoid/God. As said by Morrison, within the state of spaceless and timeless conscious, one blurs into direct experience with the some totality of all consciousness that has ever been or will be.

There is no “oneness statement”.” He explained the nature of the Overvoid in which you made the claim that it looked like it suited the idea of “oneness.”

Mandrakk being unified would the Overvoid does not make any apparent sense. All contradictions are “dissolved” into unity. His idea was erased what part of “Mandrakk” would unify if his very being is gone.

1. If Mandrakk was locked in some monument in Nil, how could he build a bridge to the Multiverse in the first place?

Although he was locked away he still had his powers and was capable of wreaking havoc. Since he was locked in Nil how would access the Overvoid where he couldn't exist? Not to mention when Ultraman made the statement it was when Zillo Valla said that “Mandrakk awakes.” Since in the pit, he was fighting himself after the transformation, and when the countdown finish he already had capsule of the Bleed.

1. Since the lower Multiverse already exists inside of Nil as a shattered jar, why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge to it?

The shattered Jar means nothing since Rox literally was on top of those worlds as well. That serves as imaginary and it doesn't exist in Nil, it exists in the Orrery. Nil is where nothing is and where every meaning becomes nothing. Plus if he builds from the Overvoid then he would go on forever because the Void doesn't have limits. He would have to build from the Multiverse all the way to the Void in order for that to make sense. Plus not only is Nil “nothing” but at its edge is the Overvoid. We know he can't just enter it without his idea being erased. Let's take your theory of “unifying.” Then each time Mandrakk enters the Overvoid, he would be unified and I doubt the Overvoid would recreate him every time this happens.

1. Why would they say Mandrakks “crawling up” if he’s already locked in some tomb above the lower Multiverse?

That's because you don't “crawl” at all in any archetypal place. Ok, then how do you “crawl” in the Overvoid if you're only meant to sink? Not to mention he said crawl from the Darkness and nothing of the Overvoid is “dark” it's non-dual. The Darkness is referring to himself, which the stories tells “he chained the beast in darkness” and “deep within the sepulcher of Mandrakk.” When he was free “night fell across Creation.” Where would be “up” in the Overvoid? Could it be his crawling from the “pit” where only he and his darkness is? Which makes a lot more sense.

1. Why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge into the lower Multiverse if he was going to just destroy Nil and take the whole damn structure down with it anyway?

He was already “building” the bridge right around the time Zillo mentions he has awakened. Where his technology attacked the resident of Limbo. The concept of a bridge can't even exist in the “Overvoid” where it gets destroyed in unity. He was planning to take Nil down but he didn't finish his goal in fact he didn't even finish the goal of draining the Multiverse dry.

Are you now seeing why this interpretation just doesn’t make any sense? On top of it contradicting the Overvoid being already identified as the “void” it simply doesn’t even make sense. That’s why it is much more plausible for Mandrakk to have been in the Overvoid and building a bridge into Multiverse where he would enter through the basalt monument in Nil.

Ah, the irony because bridges and Mandrakk can exist in the Overvoid that would erase all ideas. Not to mention where would the bridge go to a vast infinite nothingness to reach a destination?

 

[Xearsay]

I never agreed to Darkseid being AE(Type 1) because this thread was focused on Mandrakk.

Why would Darkseid not have AE type 1?

Also, the event of Crisis on Infinite Earth happened before Dax was sent which makes sense because of the fact the Universe had become a Multiverse after that event. The Overvoid literally was shocked by that story which is the whole point of why he sent Dax. So no...he doesn't predate the DC History.

No this was still before DC’s history had begun. As shown in the series of scans that would come after.

Next scan

Next scan 2

There is no “oneness statement”.” He explained the nature of the Overvoid in which you made the claim that it looked like it suited the idea of “oneness.”

There was a oneness statement. I simply just didn’t post it.

Morrison - “This ‘holistic’ mode of consciousness…announces itself as a heartbreaking connection, a oneness, with everything that exists…”

Although he was locked away he still had his powers and was capable of wreaking havoc. Since he was locked in Nil how would access the Overvoid where he couldn't exist? Not to mention when Ultraman made the statement it was when Zillo Valla said that “Mandrakk awakes.”

Of course Mandrakk has his powers. The problem is that under your interpretation he’s still trapped within the monument structure in Nil. And if he’s trapped in the monument, there’s nowhere for him to build a bridge to in the first place.

The shattered Jar means nothing since Rox literally was on top of those worlds as well. That serves as imaginary and it doesn't exist in Nil, it exists in the Orrery.

The Orrery is literally just a monitor name for the structure of the Multiverse that exist in their world. Also Rox hanging on top of those worlds literally has no correlation to the question I just asked you. Mandrakk building a bridge from Nil to the Multiverse doesn’t make sense when the Multiverse literally sits in Nil.

He was already “building” the bridge right around the time Zillo mentions he has awakened.

Ok but what does this have to do with my question? Why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge into the lower Multiverse if he was going to just destroy Nil and take the lower Multiverse down with it anyway?

Ah, the irony because bridges and Mandrakk can exist in the Overvoid that would erase all ideas. Not to mention where would the bridge go to a vast infinite nothingness to reach a destination?

Yes Mandrakk can exist in the Overvoid. He existed in it during both the Final Crisis and Multiversity origin story. The Thought Robot was also shown standing in it during Final Crisis.

As for the bridge, the bridge would simply extend out from the Void and into the Multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Why would Darkseid not have AE type 1?

There are many issues for this that I could go over. The problem also comes from the fact you wanna scale Mandrakk from Darkseid due to being more “archetypal” than Darkseid. If New Gods are the idea to the purest form which is platonic then either Darkseid isn't the full concept or he represents a different idea other than Evil. Simply put it this is for “Mandrakk” not Darkseid.

No this was still before DC’s history had begun. As shown in the series of scans that would come after.

You're literally missing a lot of contexts. The earlier scan of this he Overvoid and the Prbe is referring to that perspective from where the history is recorded. Your scan is dealing with the inside and what happened from inside the Flaw.

This is evident since the conflict generator: Anti-Monitor was already there before he sent the Probe. Stories were already there and the Overvoid had to make a concept to contain and became something to differentiate it from the Flaw then it sent the “Probe” to understand what stories were and the damage they could do. It never said once mention the Probe was there when stories first began. It literally saw heroes and villains fighting.

There was a oneness statement. I simply just didn’t post it.

Morrison - “This ‘holistic’ mode of consciousness…announces itself as a heartbreaking connection, a oneness, with everything that exists…”

Your idea of the oneness is not the same as what was mentioned. His referring to oneness is in conjunction with where these concepts that dissolve. I assume you mean oneness being above and beyond duality which it was also a part of it. One with Ink and Paper which describes infinitesimal nothing to infinite nothingness. Since this is referring to “oneness” with everything that exists, you can't be oneness beyond everything if you are non-dual. I already read that from the interview, all I suggest was that your claim is not the oneness Grant was referring to.

The Overvoid isn't oneness, it is oneness with everything hence why it can be still non-dual yet be considered oneness. It doesn't represent both parts if everything and nothing are dualities then oneness would be defined as everything and nothing. Yet the Overvoid made itself separate it's nothing from the everything.

Of course Mandrakk has his powers. The problem is that under your interpretation he’s still trapped within the monument structure in Nil. And if he’s trapped in the monument, there’s nowhere for him to build a bridge to in the first place.

You're making a half-baked assumption. By your logic, he would build a bridge from nothing? Is there anything to suggest he could create from nothing? Not to mention the Overvoid has an infinite distance where ideas cannot exist. No logic can support that a bridge exists in the Overvoid since Superman only saw Mandrakk fall into “infinite nothingness.” Unless this is a metaphorical “bridge” and even then the idea wouldn't be able to exist.

The Orrery is literally just a monitor name for the structure of the Multiverse that exist in their world. Also Rox hanging on top of those worlds literally has no correlation to the question I just asked you. Mandrakk building a bridge from Nil to the Multiverse doesn’t make sense when the Multiverse literally sits in Nil.

You seem to misunderstand what I said. You literally said how can he build from the bridge if the Multiverse is seen in Nil as your basis to claim that we don't see a literal bridge connected to the Orrery. My response was to explain that those worlds are a projection so that Rox could literally just be on top of these worlds without actually breaking the Multiverse. Plus you can't just enter the Orrery like that, you need to go to the Bleedspace where each of these separate Earths is.

So the real question is what suggests Mandrakk can build from the Void where he cent exists as an idea. If you remove an idea, what does it become? Literally...nothing. If he can't exist there then he clearly build it from Nil where he could actually do it everything else would dissolve if the Void mentioned were the Overvoid.

Ok but what does this have to do with my question? Why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge into the lower Multiverse if he was going to just destroy Nil and take the lower Multiverse down with it anyway?

Did you read what you said? I literally answered your question as to why he needs to build a bridge to the Multiverse from the Void(Nil). I explain the Overvoid would destroy any construct that it comes in contact with and a bridge would be one of those.

Your second part is assuming he that he won. He didn't even destroy Nil or the Multiverse, the bridge was already being to be made when he was awakened. His “building” would emphasize that it was already at work and that he wasn't anywhere else but in the pit where he chained himself against his darkness.

Yes Mandrakk can exist in the Overvoid. He existed in it during both the Final Crisis and Multiversity origin story. The Thought Robot was also shown standing in it during Final Crisis.

As for the bridge, the bridge would simply extend out from the Void and into the Multiverse.

It never showed that they existed in the Overvoid. That was just imaginary since the Flaw was covered in a concept it also said when they enter after the first contact was when it split. We see that the scan of Probe being in the Multiverse split from within it and it shows us what Dax Novu and the Monitor saw. They weren't randomly floating in the Overvoid where “thoughts” and “ideas” can't exist.

You can't extend unless you have a vantage point from infinity. Where would the bridge start from to connect to the Multiverse within an infinite distance?

 

[Elizio33]

Seems very good to me. I agree.

 

[Xearsay]

The problem also comes from the fact you wanna scale Mandrakk from Darkseid due to being more “archetypal” than Darkseid. If New Gods are the idea to the purest form which is platonic then either Darkseid isn't the full concept or he represents a different idea other than Evil.

AE type 1 can be limited by the level of reality you’re on. So Mandrakk having AE type 1 on a greater scope than Darkseid doesn’t invalidate Darkseids AE type 1.

You're literally missing a lot of contexts. The earlier scan of this he Overvoid and the Prbe is referring to that perspective from where the history is recorded. Your scan is dealing with the inside and what happened from inside the Flaw.

What was going on inside the flaw happened after the beginning of all things.

Scan 1: “Novu is blinded, corrupted by the flaws lightning dazzle. So begins all things, with a flash.”

Scan 2:” With Barry Allen.”

The following scans would then continue explaining the history of the DC Multiverse. From when the Multiverse first existed, to COIE, etc.

I digress, even if we do accept your argument that Mandrakk doesn’t predate DC’s history, Dax Novu still transformed into the universal Evil that is Mandrakk. Meaning he still became the abstraction.

I assume you mean oneness being above and beyond duality which it was also a part of it.

No I meant oneness with everything that exists just like what’s said in the interview and not like your assumption.

Is there anything to suggest he could create from nothing? Not to mention the Overvoid has an infinite distance where ideas cannot exist. No logic can support that a bridge exists in the Overvoid since Superman only saw Mandrakk fall into “infinite nothingness.” Unless this is a metaphorical “bridge” and even then the idea wouldn't be able to exist.

It’s never revealed in the comic how Mandrakk was building the bridge, however I don’t actually believe it’s a literal bridge. Also things can exist in the Overvoid. Hell, the whole Multiverse exist in the Overvoid. This claim you’re making that nothing can exist in the Overvoid is completely contradicted by the comics.

You literally said how can he build from the bridge if the Multiverse is seen in Nil as your basis to claim that we don't see a literal bridge connected to the Orrery.

My question had nothing to do with the comic not displaying a bridge connected the Orrery. I don’t care whether we see the bridge or not. My question was, why would Mandrakk need to build a bridge from Nil into the Multiverse if the Multiverse is already in Nil? Additionally, the Orrery structure is not a projection, it’s creation as seen from the outside on a higher scale.

Plus you can't just enter the Orrery like that, you need to go to the Bleedspace where each of these separate Earths is.

Agreed you can’t enter the Multiverse like that from Nil. Which is exactly why your claim that Mandrakk was building a bridge from Nil into the Multiverse is wrong because as you just said, it can’t be done in that way.

It never showed that they existed in the Overvoid. That was just imaginary since the Flaw was covered in a concept it also said when they enter after the first contact was when it split.

Yes Final Crisis did show they existed in the Overvoid. It takes me literally two seconds to post a scan showcasing CAS literally standing in it. And your argument that this all didn’t actually happen is unfounded.

About the bridge, once again I don’t think it’s a literal bridge and how it was created was never actually revealed to us. However, what I do know is that Mandrakk was in the Overvoid before entering the Multiverse, and that your interpretation of what we’re discussing doesn’t actually hold up.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems uncontroversial to apply.

 

[Deagonx]

This seems uncontroversial to apply.

Should we seek further input or is this level of agreement acceptable given that the changes are fairly small?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Should we seek further input or is this level of agreement acceptable given that the changes are fairly small?

I was just about to reply but I remember his view of this will be unchangeable. So we’ll let the vast majority agree to implement these changes. So far in favor of the changes.

 

[Deagonx]

I was just about to reply but I remember his view of this will be unchangeable.

Yeah. He's obviously entitled to his opinion, but you're right, his view will not change so it'll just go in circles.

 

[Xearsay]

I was just about to reply but I remember his view of this will be unchangeable.

Lol don’t try to paint me as unreasonable. One of your proposals just doesn’t make any sense. Mandrakk having AE type 2 would make him less of an abstract than New Gods like Darkseid who have AE type 1, which contradicts the cosmic hierarchy.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Lol don’t try to paint me as unreasonable. One of your proposals just doesn’t make any sense. Mandrakk having AE type 2 would make him less of an abstract than New Gods like Darkseid who have AE type 1, which contradicts the cosmic hierarchy.

How? Legit question, btw.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Lol don’t try to paint me as unreasonable. One of your proposals just doesn’t make any sense. Mandrakk having AE type 2 would make him less of an abstract than New Gods like Darkseid who have AE type 1, which contradicts the cosmic hierarchy.

I'm not saying you're unreasonable. I was saying you won't change your view, so we’ll let the majority decide. Nothing of what I said is purely factual and letting the majority decide what should be the outcome should be a reasonable suggestion.

Also for Darkseid points, I already explain the reasoning. Discussing things with you leads nowhere because you keep thinking someone didn't answer your points and you constantly loop the questions over a difference in view.

 

[Deagonx]

If nothing else, Goofy has been very polite and communicative about his views and I don't feel that should be met with snark or sarcasm for it.

 

[Xearsay]

How? Legit question, btw.

Because while an AE type type 2 being embodies an abstraction, an AE type 1 being is the abstraction itself. And Mandrakk being an embodiment of Darkseid would contradict the cosmic hierarchy, as Mandrakk is living universal evil that exists as pure thought within a fundamental world of primal forms transcendent to the Godsphere. Which is why his AE type 1 shouldn’t be downgraded to type 2.

 

[Deagonx]

And Mandrakk being an embodiment of Darkseid would contradict the cosmic hierarchy

Goofy very directly denied that he was advocating for such a thing in his first response to you, and that's not what's being implied either way.

I never suggest because he's a “representation” of a concept that it would degrade him to below Darkseid.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Goofy very directly denied that he was advocating for such a thing in his first response to you, and that's not what's being implied either way.

Not only that, I'm fairly sure one can be more abstract yet pertain to a lower reality compared to another. This seems like one of those cases to me. Mandrakk just doesn't properly show to embody the abstraction he's tied to in the same manner Darkseid embody his. and if new gods stuff will be taken a look later and possibly downgraded too, that's just icing on the cake

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Goofy very directly denied that he was advocating for such a thing in his first response to you, and that's not what's being implied either way.

Not to mention I've never suggested Darkseid is Evil itself. If his reasoning is Mandrakk is more powerful and more “archetypal” then clearly either Mandrakk is something else or Darkseid was never deserving of his tier either.

Nevertheless, this is a “Mandrakk” powers revision suggestion. So if something applies to him then obviously it would affect everything else that connects to him. Not everything has to be pointed out. It should have been obvious. I guess some people just need every little nuance of information...

 

[Deagonx]

Not only that, I'm fairly sure one can be more abstract yet pertain to a lower reality compared to another. This seems like one of those cases to me. Mandrakk just doesn't properly show to embody the abstraction he's tied to in the same manner Darkseid embody his. and if new gods stuff will be taken a look later and possibly downgraded too, that's just icing on the cake

Thank you for looking at this Lephyr. With that in mind, do you feel that the OP's revisions are fairly straightforward? If you agree we'll have 3 staff votes and can apply them.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Just to be clear, Supes robot remains AE1 right?

 

[Deagonx]

Just to be clear, Supes robot remains AE1 right?

It probably shouldn't, given that it's explicitly part of a duality with Mandrakk.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It probably shouldn't, given that it's explicitly part of a duality with Mandrakk.

It's interlocked with Mandrakk in the story that was “driving them to their conclusion.” What applies to Mandrakk should be to Cosmic Amror given it appear after/as a result of the Split.

Let's just hope someone doesn't claim that Superman is “all stories” personified.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Welp, imma try to give my two cents on the matter tonight.
Considering there are other interviews where Mandrakk is called Entropy itself and other stuff, assuming this thread remains open for that long

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Let's just hope someone doesn't claim that Superman is “all stories” personified.

Haha.

 

[Elizio33]

It probably shouldn't, given that it's explicitly part of a duality with Mandrakk.

Thing is, shouldn't we even consider Thought Robot as part of a duality with Mandrakk? The Thought Robot was described as Dax Novu’s "final gift" and "greatest invention."

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Welp, imma try to give my two cents on the matter tonight.
Considering there are other interviews where Mandrakk is called Entropy itself and other stuff, assuming this thread remains open for that long

Grant states “Entropy, I guess” as to suggest when Evil wins and the Multiverse completely collapses then that's the idea behind “Mandrakk” whether it was caused by him or not. (He didn't even do it and Darkseid did a lot more work).

For how the Empty Hands is meant to be the next villain stronger than the previous. To think the heroes win comes another in an endless tales caused by the Oblivion Machine. (Retconned/Reworked by Justice League Incarnate).

Mandrakk was a greater threat but he didn't do much more than either two.

 

[Deagonx]

The Thought Robot was described as Dax Novu’s "final gift" and "greatest invention."

This was part of the "legend" in Monitor culture about the robot, but it's not meant to be taken as factual information.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I just don't see why people are intermitting their opinion to this extent over something like this. It's not making Mandrakk any less powerful, it literally just suits him more.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This was part of the "legend" in Monitor culture about the robot, but it's not meant to be taken as factual information.

Also the whole idea behind the “Doomsday Machine” that was meant to protect them from the “Ultimate Enemy” seems fabricated. Mandrakk was still a lot stronger. It was pure speculation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you for looking at this Lephyr. With that in mind, do you feel that the OP's revisions are fairly straightforward? If you agree we'll have 3 staff votes and can apply them.

Reading more in-depth, the changes do make sense to me

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima can you unlock the Mandrakk page and I'll apply the revisions?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Grant states “Entropy, I guess” as to suggest when Evil wins and the Multiverse completely collapses then that's the idea behind “Mandrakk” whether it was caused by him or not. (He didn't even do it and Darkseid did a lot more work).

Honestly Mandrakk is alot of different things all in one. GM views the Monitors as the literal thoughts of the Overvoid, with Mandrakk supposedly representing the negative side of these thoughts, the side that wants to erase and destroy stories and whatnot

This makes sense when most of the advertising for Mandrakk shows him as the literal ultimate evil, Anti-story itself, a 2-1 definition of the Overvoid, that side of God that doesn't want creation on it, which also makes sense, so him being called Entropy itself, makes sense with him being called the Ultimate evil.

He isnt really an embodiment of Ultimate evil, he kinda is ultimate evil itself.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Also im pretty sure we accept The Monitors as some type of platonic archetypes of a platonic world.

Whats up with that? Is Mandrakk not similar (if not superior) in existence complexity to Monitors?