Barbatos and Unexpected Mandrakk upgrade

[Transcending]

Hello. I think Barbatos should be upgraded to 1-A, along with Unexpected Mandrakk. But Unexpected Mandrakk doesn't even have a key, so I propose to add that too. Let's start with Mandrakk since Barbatos' reasoning is connected to his.

Mandrakk​

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki. So he should be 1-A. He also scales to Barbatos(Unexpected #8)

Barbatos​

There are 3 reasons for his rating-

1: Is relative to Unexpected Mandrakk, slightly superior even, though he lacks the power to destroy Mandrakk(Unexpected #8)

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

3: Killed the World Forger. This feat is currently accepted as 2-C but World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C) but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

So overall, I think both Mandrakk and Barbatos needs to be 1-A.

 

[Tetrahedron1234]

Hello. I think Barbatos should be upgraded to 1-A, along with Unexpected Mandrakk. But Unexpected Mandrakk doesn't even have a key, so I propose to add that too. Let's start with Mandrakk since Barbatos' reasoning is connected to his.

Mandrakk​

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki. So he should be 1-A. He also scales to Barbatos(Unexpected #8)

Barbatos​

There are 3 reasons for his rating-

1: Is relative to Unexpected Mandrakk, slightly superior even, though he lacks the power to destroy Mandrakk(Unexpected #8)

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

3: Killed the World Forger. This feat is currently accepted as 2-C but World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C) but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

So overall, I think both Mandrakk and Barbatos needs to be 1-A.

I agree.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Hello. I think Barbatos should be upgraded to 1-A, along with Unexpected Mandrakk. But Unexpected Mandrakk doesn't even have a key, so I propose to add that too. Let's start with Mandrakk since Barbatos' reasoning is connected to his.

Mandrakk​

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki. So he should be 1-A. He also scales to Barbatos(Unexpected #8)

Barbatos​

There are 3 reasons for his rating-

1: Is relative to Unexpected Mandrakk, slightly superior even, though he lacks the power to destroy Mandrakk(Unexpected #8)

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

3: Killed the World Forger. This feat is currently accepted as 2-C but World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C) but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

So overall, I think both Mandrakk and Barbatos needs to be 1-A.

I agree

 

[Samael24567]

Hello. I think Barbatos should be upgraded to 1-A, along with Unexpected Mandrakk. But Unexpected Mandrakk doesn't even have a key, so I propose to add that too. Let's start with Mandrakk since Barbatos' reasoning is connected to his.

Mandrakk​

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki. So he should be 1-A. He also scales to Barbatos(Unexpected #8)

Barbatos​

There are 3 reasons for his rating-

1: Is relative to Unexpected Mandrakk, slightly superior even, though he lacks the power to destroy Mandrakk(Unexpected #8)

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

3: Killed the World Forger. This feat is currently accepted as 2-C but World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C) but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

So overall, I think both Mandrakk and Barbatos needs to be 1-A.

1-A Barbatos seems valid ngl

 

[Xearsay]

I agree.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree.
However, this Barbatos doesn't hold a candle to Post Crisis Barbatos - a fat blue-skinned toddler

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

The reason Mandrakk should be 1-A is the fact that he tanked hits from Alden Quench, which were going to destroy the Monitor Sphere, before killing him. TMS is currently accepted as 1-A in the wiki.

Where is Nil rated as 1-A? I would strongly disagree with that. Nil itself is just a single world in the Monitor Sphere, it isn't the entirety of the Sphere, according to the map. I don't even think the Sphere should be 1-A necessarily.

2: Scales above Quench, who is 1-A as I explained earlier(Unexpected #8)

This all seems a little too circular. Scaling Barbatos to Mandrakk and Quench, and scaling Mandrakk to Barbatos and Quench?

Do any of them have actual 1-A feats?

World Forger in the World Forge not only likely transcends The Sphere of the Gods(Low 1-C)

Being able to view the Sphere from the outside doesn't mean you're greater than it, but it's widely accepted that if Barbatos killed WF it would've been his in-universe form, since he regenerated.

but is also at his peak(1-A) going by a questionable WOG scan

This doesn't mean he's 1-A, and this is also not a public statement that we can verify.

 

[Transcending]

Where is Nil rated as 1-A?

Nil itself wasn't stated to be but the Monitor Sphere was.

I would strongly disagree with that. Nil itself is just a single world in the Monitor Sphere, it isn't the entirety of the Sphere, according to the map.

Sure, but existing in a 1-A area, and being smaller than it is still 1-A. Plus Nil is still larger than Limbo, another 1-A realm

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQP_2xrKShMDBGF7pwayAN-lEUT_6BS5KCaqA&usqp=CAU

I don't even think the Sphere should be 1-A necessarily

Maybe, maybe not, I am merely going with what's currently accepted. You can try to downgrade the Sphere in the revisions.

This all seems a little too circular. Scaling Barbatos to Mandrakk and Quench, and scaling Mandrakk to Barbatos and Quench?

By scaling Mandrakk to Barbatos, I was trying to go off of Barbatos' third scaling.

Scaling Barbatos to Mandrakk was a sort of backup, something to use if for some reason Mandrakk's statement on Barbatos>Quench is not accepted. In that case I would be able to argue Barbatos scales to Quench via scaling to Mandrakk.

Being able to view the Sphere from the outside doesn't mean you're greater than it,

I was referring to Alpheus' statement of "A fiction of the Sphere of the Gods?"

but it's widely accepted that if Barbatos killed WF it would've been his in-universe form, since he regenerated.

Was it stated Forger can only regenerate in-universe?

This doesn't mean he's 1-A,

How? His 6D form is stated to be 1-A and if he's superior in the Forge, he would have to be 1-A there.

and this is also not a public statement that we can verify.

Yeah, which is why I said questionable. This point was more of a supporting point rather than a primary point.

 

[Deagonx]

Nil itself wasn't stated to be but the Monitor Sphere was.

Where?

Sure, but existing in a 1-A area, and being smaller than it is still 1-A. Plus Nil is still larger than Limbo, another 1-A realm

Limbo also shouldn't be 1-A, but if it is, where is this on the wiki?

I was referring to Alpheus' statement of "A fiction of the Sphere of the Gods?"

Eh, Dr. Fate also referred to the Sphere as a fiction, it seems more an acknowledgement of the Sphere's nature (a realm of manifested beliefs) rather than an indication of R>F or something like that.

How? His 6D form is stated to be 1-A and if he's superior in the Forge, he would have to be 1-A there.

Where is he said to be superior in the forge?

Was it stated Forger can only regenerate in-universe?

Not necessarily, but we know Barbatos can't go to the 6th Dimension.

 

[Transcending]

Where?

Limbo also shouldn't be 1-A, but if it is, where is this on the wiki?

Dream of the Endless

Dream was a member of The Endless, a group of seven dysfunctional siblings that embody different fundamental aspect of reality. Dream was the anthropomorphic personification of the concept of dreaming and is both the lord and incarnation of The Dreaming, the place in which all dreams reside and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Eh, Dr. Fate also referred to the Sphere as a fiction, it seems more an acknowledgement of the Sphere's nature (a realm of manifested beliefs) rather than an indication of R>F or something like that.

Hmm, good point

Where is he said to be superior in the forge?

The WOG scan I posted

Not necessarily, but we know Barbatos can't go to the 6th Dimension.

How? But even if that was the case, I am not arguing Barbatos killed the Forger in 6D, I am arguing Barbatos killed the Forger in the World Forge

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

Dream of the Endless

I don't think that his page is accurate, but the cosmology revamp is about to be finished so I don't think we should make a change based on Dream's profile from 3 years ago saying those realms are 1-A.

The WOG scan I posted

I don't think that scan is valid evidence, it's an alleged private message from Snyder that no one can confirm the validity of.

How?

Mxy said only the 3 brothers and Perpetua herself could enter the Sixth Dimension.

But even if that was the case, I am not arguing Barbatos killed the Forger in 6D, I am arguing Barbatos killed the Forger in the World Forge

If he was in the World Forge it wouldve been his lower form.

 

[Transcending]

Since the other points depend on if the WOG scan is valid, and as I said before I am not trying to make it a primary point, I will just address your first argument.

I don't think that his page is accurate

I don't think it's accurate either, not because I don't think Limbo is 1-A, but because I don't think Dream should be 1-A.

but the cosmology revamp is about to be finished so I don't think we should make a change based on Dream's profile from 3 years ago saying those realms are 1-A.

I am a bit iffy on when the revisions come, so I think we should do the upgrade to 1-A right now. The characters will need to be upgraded anyway since I am pretty sure Limbo/Nil is not gonna go all the way down to 2-A. If we get the characters to 1-A right now, once the revisions come, all we will have to do is a tier change.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Would this be Fate Manipulation for Barbatos?

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Disagree because this will make Superman 1-A

 

[Transcending]

̶1̶-̶A̶ ̶S̶u̶p̶e̶r̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶n̶g̶l̶

 

[Eseseso]

Isn't Mandrakk already 1-A?

 

[Transcending]

Isn't Mandrakk already 1-A?

Not Unexpected Mandrakk, only FC Mandrakk

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

̶1̶-̶A̶ ̶S̶u̶p̶e̶r̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶n̶g̶l̶

real and based

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[XXKINGXX69]

This will never be accepted if it does I owe you 5 bucks

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think that we should do here, Deagonx?

 

[Transcending]

This will never be accepted if it does I owe you 5 bucks

4K

What do you think that we should do here, Deagonx?

Deagon basically agrees that my CRT is true going by current standards, but he disagrees with the current standards. So he thinks we should do something after the revisions. However, as I explained before, Mandrakk and Barbatos would need to be upgraded even if the revisions pass, as my justifications would still do a smaller upgrade.

This is why I think we should apply this. If we apply this rn, after the revisions, we would just need to change the tiers as everything else would be done. If we don't apply though, after the revisions we would need to change the tiers and add justifications. This will increase the workload. Plus everyone else are fine with applying it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. Let's wait to see what Deagonx thinks though.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Noted. Let's wait to see what Deagonx thinks though.

Ok, I will ask him to return to this thread

EDIT: I didn't ask him but @Beyond_transcending did

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think that we should do here, Deagonx?

It's based on the Monitor Sphere being rated 1-A, which I disagree with. I don't necessarily agree with the assertion that it's a 'site standard' personally, it's present in a profile on the wiki but I don't believe that means it can be transposed onto every other profile.

I also think that it should probably wait until after the revision project.

 

[Transcending]

but I don't believe that means it can be transposed onto every other profile.

Why

 

[Transcending]

Also, it's not present on a single profile, it's present on the profiles of ALL The Endless

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that it should probably wait until after the revision project.

I am personally fine with if we wait with this. Especially as "The Unexpected" version of Mandrakk was presented as very weak as far as I recall, as he was possible to fight for regular superheroes. Certainly nowhere near tier 1-A in his scale of power. It seems like DC Comics' typical completely incoherent borderline dadaistic powerscaling and cosmology structure inconsistency.

 

[Transcending]

I am personally fine with if we wait with this

Even then the majority has voted against waiting, so we shouldn't do it.

Especially as "The Unexpected" version of Mandrakk was presented as very weak as far as I recall, as he was possible to fight for regular superheroes.

Where?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It seems like DC Comics' typical completely incoherent borderline dadaistic powerscaling and cosmology structure inconsistency.

Just say you hate DC