Moon Movement 5-B to Naruto-Verse UPGRADE (Let's do this again but right :D)

[Ghostimuscrime]

A moon is a natural satellite of a body. So, for something to be classified as a "moon" it would technically need to be in space orbiting its main celestial body, aka until the "moon" is put into orbit, it isn't technically a "moon". Or more simply, it can be completely created as a giant rocky sphere, but doesn't become a "moon" until it is sent into space to orbit earth.

Edit: but also I feel like that detail is a bit pedantic for either side, and end of the day is kind of a nothing point for either argument.

sooo you agree with me that it becoming the moon is only possible in space? cool
so thats the narrative and outside sources both supporting the moon movement feat being part of it

Two actions that correlate with each other don't have to happen within seconds, minutes, or even hours of each other. Things can happen together over grand timescales.

no it does not, you can say the overall feat takes over years to finish and idc about that here but the fact is that one of the later parts of the story deems them part of the same ninjutsu so there is no gap in between as suggested

Uh, your own scan mentions how he did the dividing on his deathbed, which, given his longevity, is going to be a very long time since Kaguya was sealed

I can just dismiss it as outdated, I only used it to say its moon when its in space and since no one is arguing against that it shouldnt be an issue

Are you referring to a filler anime scene?

yes

 

[Samlex1234]

Are you referring to a filler anime scene?

Was it not in this same anime episodes that the silhouette of Momo/ urashiki and Kinshiki was shown? Which would later be major plot points as the series progressed. Kishimoto was definitely part of the production of those episodes. They have major narrative implications that a random or normal filler episode don't

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

the momoshiki stuff was hinted even in the manga when she gives a sad expression talking to zetsu about her plans and need to reunify chakra for dealing with so and so, kishi had the thing planned out even when the manga (war arc) was serialising

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

sooo you agree with me that it becoming the moon is only possible in space? cool
so thats the narrative and outside sources both supporting the moon movement feat being part of it

No, I rather explicitly don't agree with you...

no it does not, you can say the overall feat takes over years to finish and idc about that here but the fact is that one of the later parts of the story deems them part of the same ninjutsu so there is no gap in between as suggested

Agree to disagree ig

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

we see 9 different baby bijuus like 2 minutes after the seal

Doesn't that contradict what Hag's said happened in the manga? In the manga, he said he separated the Chakra of the Ten Tails into nine pieces due to being inspired by Ashura.

 

[Samlex1234]

No, I rather explicitly don't agree with you...


Agree to disagree ig

Honestly you don't have to agree with him. The definition of a moon already supports his argument .

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

No, I rather explicitly don't agree with you...

Doesn't that contradict what Hag's said happened in the manga? In the manga, he said he separated the Chakra of the Ten Tails into nine pieces due to being inspired by Ashura.

can you list the chapter number or at least pinpoint to what exactly is being contradicted

 

[Testarossa002]

Broo this is what I have been saying a chibaku tensei as big as the moon is still just a chibaku tensei. The chibaku tensei only becomes a moon when it is in space. Every info we have about the justu mentions how it was use to create the moon not just some random moon sized Chibaku tensei sitting in earth stratosphere for who knows? How long

Yeah...no
The difference between regular and six paths is that one requires a single user while the other needs dual users with Yin and Yang

Transforming earth into a heavenly body! Capturing anything with the six path prison!!

It is a Fuuinjutsu that can only be used by individuals who have awakened Senjutsu from the six paths. Chibaku Tensei is the version that can be used individually, while Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is a more powerful version that requires two individuals combining Yin and Yang powers. Jutsu transforms the sealing target into a gravitational core in the sky, attracting rock formations that bury it alive. This forms a celestial body in the sky that can serve as a prison even for a Tailed Beast.

I can just dismiss it as outdated, I only used it to say its moon when its in space and since no one is arguing against that it shouldnt be an issue

Dismissing 2 primary canon scans (from sources that witnessed it firsthand) in order to use an anime only scan is certainly something

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

can you list the chapter number or at least pinpoint to what exactly is being contradicted

In the anime, Hags immediately split the Chakra of the Ten Tails after its sealing whereas in the manga it took him being inspired by Ashura to have the idea to split up the Ten Tails' Chakra, and possibly that was after he travelled the world preaching his creed and settling down.

Ashura's method of Love and Cooperation being the source of True Power is what inspired Hags to make the Bijuu

Chap 670

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah...no
The difference between regular and six paths is that one requires a single user while the other needs dual users with Yin and Yang

the difference can be WHATEVER the writer wants, it needs to be similar due to having similar names and it is, even if you dont think so youd be arguing with the author


you need to stop thinking everything that isnt explicitly mentioned in the databooks = conflicting with the manga, yes it is a stronger version and CAN have more features, nothing says it cant

Dismissing 2 primary canon scans (from sources that witnessed it firsthand) in order to use an anime only scan is certainly something

nuh uh, I'm only dismissing obito's version since the newer version where he lives on for a bit has more narrative support

 

[Testarossa002]

Was it not in this same anime episodes that the silhouette of Momo/ urashiki and Kinshiki was shown? Which would later be major plot points as the series progressed. Kishimoto was definitely part of the production of those episodes. They have major narrative implications that a random or normal filler episode don't

That means nothing
Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki had already been conceptualised by Kishimoto for the boruto movie (2015) prior to Naruto Episode 462 (2016)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

In the anime, Hags immediately split the Chakra of the Ten Tails after its sealing whereas in the manga it took him being inspired by Ashura to have the idea to split up the Ten Tails' Chakra, and possibly that was after he travelled the world preaching his creed and settling down.

Ashura's method of Love and Cooperation being the source of True Power is what inspired Hags to make the Bijuu

Chap 670

i mean it technically does not say it happened AFTER the kaguya fight, it can just be him inserting that action after because the info about ashura, naruto knows the necessary context as to why hagoromo believes in cooperation so he adds that part afterward, so its not a defeater


EDIT : It doesnt say thats the reason for division so we can assume the reason is the one said back by obito which is it being too powerful

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

What power did you think Toneri was referencing when? He mentioned the power that can move the moon (↑). What moon was he talking about? When was the moon moved, and who moved it?

Below is a narrative implication that dismisses the writer's intent: The moon was created by Hago and Hamura and hurled by them.

“Later, towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. “

The narrative implications discredit Hamura from the moon moving feat which makes absolutely no sense as there will be nothing to reference when Toneri spoke about the power to move the moon, because we know it was only moved once when the SPCT happened as shown in the only adaptation of the feat we have.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What power did you think Toneri was referencing when? He mentioned the power that can move the moon (↑). What moon was he talking about? When was the moon moved, and who moved it?

Below is a narrative implication that dismisses the writer's intent: The moon was created by Hago and Hamura and hurled by them.

“Later, towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. “

The narrative implications discredit Hamura from the moon moving feat which makes absolutely no sense as there will be nothing to reference when Toneri spoke about the power to move the moon, because we know it was only moved once when the SPCT happened as shown in the only adaptation of the feat we have.

lol

with this there are now several different scans consistently backing up the same argument, the databooks shown in OP about hags telling stories to baby bijuu, the SPCT being a moon transfer ninjutsu, hamura's power referencing the only moon movement that is possible



the ONLY thing that conflicts this is obitos statement saying its done near death and thats contradicted by everyones beloved kurama statement and the anime, as its outdated as well as altered by obito we can safely dismiss it

 

[Samlex1234]

What power did you think Toneri was referencing when? He mentioned the power that can move the moon (↑). What moon was he talking about? When was the moon moved, and who moved it?

Below is a narrative implication that dismisses the writer's intent: The moon was created by Hago and Hamura and hurled by them.

“Later, towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. “

The narrative implications discredit Hamura from the moon moving feat which makes absolutely no sense as there will be nothing to reference when Toneri spoke about the power to move the moon, because we know it was only moved once when the SPCT happened as shown in the only adaptation of the feat we have.

Honestly, there is a lot of narrative implications with the current calc.

1. First it is assumes a chibaku tensei was created and kept hovering over the earth stratosphere for years. (Honestly you guys don't even know the implications of this in reality, constant flooding, earth quake and many more) but I digress.

2. It separates the feat into two justu which doesn't align with all the evidence shown.

3. It ignores the definition of what a moon is.

4. It makes it look like Hago is the only person that moved the moon which is not true narrativly.

 

[Testarossa002]

What power did you think Toneri was referencing when? He mentioned the power that can move the moon (↑). What moon was he talking about? When was the moon moved, and who moved it?

Below is a narrative implication that dismisses the writer's intent: The moon was created by Hago and Hamura and hurled by them.

“Later, towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. “

The narrative implications discredit Hamura from the moon moving feat which makes absolutely no sense as there will be nothing to reference when Toneri spoke about the power to move the moon, because we know it was only moved once when the SPCT happened as shown in the only adaptation of the feat we have.

Uh what?
The entire premise of the movie is Toneri moving the moon to crash it to Earth with the tenseigan

“No need to worry. This castle is protected by chakra… a chakra powerful enough to move the moon, the power of the Ootsutsuki’s treasure… Even if the moon is destroyed, this castle and the rebirth chamber will be safe.”
Hinata realized that the source of that powerful chakra was the tenseigan

Probably some kind of artificial sun… I think this an artificial space created underground.”
If this enemy possessed the power to move the moon, he may also be able to easily create an underground space and an artificial sun.
“A puppet, and then an artificial sun? He’s an obnoxious bastard just using fakes –ttebayo!”
Naruto said as if spitting out the words.

Hamura's Tenseigan

Hamura’s Tenseigan had been made from collecting generations of the Ootsutsuki clan’s Byakugan. That was why Toneri’s clan had no eyeballs. When Naruto and Hinata had destroyed it, the Tenseigan had reverted back into tens of thousands of Byakugan, and scattered over the moon’s surface. Those countless scattered Byakugan were now beginning to shake. The Byakugan floated up, and flew towards one point. Towards Toneri—

In fact, the movie mentions Hagoromo to be the sole contributor to the moon's existence

The empty shell of the Juubi’s body from which the chakra had been extracted was referred to as the Gedo Statue. The Gedo Statue was a chakra container—if the chakra that had been divided into nine parts was once again gathered and returned to the statue, the Juubi would be revived. To prevent the Juubi from ever being resurrected, Hagoromo created a new celestial body, naming it the moon, and confined the Gedo Statue there.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Uh what?
The entire premise of the movie is Toneri moving the moon to crash it to Earth with the tenseigan


Hamura's Tenseigan


In fact, the movie mentions Hagoromo to be the sole contributor to the moon's existence

Source of the final statement?

 

[Godernet]

Yeahhh, that counterargument for SPCT being two action rather than one just isn’t the end all be all that it’s being portrayed as.

I won’t be home till Sunday night so I’ll maybe comment why later (unless someone beats me to it)

 

[Samlex1234]

Yeah...no
The difference between regular and six paths is that one requires a single user while the other needs dual users with Yin and Yang

You just mentioned here how SPCT works and then contradicted yourself below.

Hamura's Tenseigan


The movie mentions Hagoromo to be the sole contributor to the moon's existence

I watched the movie and it only says the Husk of the Ten tails was sealed in the moon, it did not mention how it was done.

Uh what?
The entire premise of the movie is Toneri moving the moon to crash it to Earth with the tenseigan

Honestly I interpret that as Hamura’s power that can move the moon, not the Ootsutsuki’s treasure as that is not Hamura’s power rather the power of all the otutsuki that were on the moon. Agree to disagree that part of the evidence can be scraped.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Even if the lore can’t be used I don’t think it should bar the transfer calc from being used, regardless of which lore you subscribe to, everyone here agrees that the celestial body has been hurled into space, he should be credited based on that

Consider the anime fully non canon, it’ll solely be used on the basis as the only adaptation of the feat, a point that slayer does not mind


Going by his route hags should get 78*2 since he allegedly did it solo lolz

 

[Testarossa002]

You just mentioned here how SPCT works and then contradicted yourself below.

I didn't
I just pointed that out from the movie because YOU GUYS brought up the movie

Source of the final statement?

The Last Novelization

Even if the lore can’t be used I don’t think it should bar the transfer calc from being used, regardless of which lore you subscribe to, everyone here agrees that the celestial body has been hurled into space, he should be credited based on that

He is already credited with that
The current calc says:

Movement

Later towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. For the first part, I'll use the change in GPE required to raise the moon from sitting on the surface of the earth, until the moon is in its orbital radius. For the second part, I'll calculate the tangential kinetic energy of the moon, using centripetal acceleration as the basis. Similarly, the force of gravity and centripetal acceleration will be used for the forces.

I don't understand most of this but the AP is based off the KE/GPE formula with KE not even netting tier 5

We don't need to bend our knees backwards in order to accommodate a secondary canon scan that contradicts the primary canon multiple times. This isn't a light fang situation where identical scenes are used to get better angles.
This would be my last take on the matter
Great job once again @Tom4t0GG789

 

[Samlex1234]

I didn't
I just pointed that out from the movie because YOU GUYS brought up the movie

The Last Novelization

He is already credited with that
The current calc says:

I don't understand most of this but the AP is based off the KE/GPE formula with KE not even netting tier 5

We don't need to bend our knees backwards in order to accommodate a secondary canon scan that contradicts the primary canon multiple times. This isn't a light fang situation where identical scenes are used to get better angles.
This would be my last take on the matter
Great job once again @Tom4t0GG789

The current calc also involves a lot of mental gymnastics..

The below was not stated in any canon source either. It is based on assumption.

“Later towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit.“

We need one more mod to agree or disagree and we can call it a day.

 

[Deceived3596]

Alright. I've read through a lot of differing arguments, scans, interpretations, and the likes. I believe before we continue the conversation, we should first address and reconcile the premise I think is the most important here, which is if the anime-filler is canon or not. It's used as the foundation for how we get the time frame of the feat, and as such, its kinetic energy (which is how it gets 5-B)

I know that, while yes, you can still argue a time frame for the feat even without the anime scene. It still is the most visually blatant depiction we have, and is what is used in the calculation for the feat (which, to further elaborate on the initial point, doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate, however; as there is a distinction between what is more visually understandable vs what is more accurate to the feat, in its totality)

With everything prefaced, I'll be dropping my post on this after I have compiled all the scans I need. Hopefully everyone here heeds the above and sticks to that one topic until a resolution is made, instead of focusing on ultimately unimportant points.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additionally, I don't believe the OP has actually offered any real reason for why the anime calc should be used over the current one.

Even if literally everything I said previously was incorrect and the OP's assertions were all correct, this issue would still stand. What makes that version better?
In my opinion, Arc's revised version would still be the better options for a few reasons.

Reason #1: Less Assumptions and Room for Error
Yeah, I think this one's pretty self-explanatory. Arc's revised calculation doesn't need to assume things such as timeframe, which the anime version does.
It goes without saying that requiring less assumptions = less room for error. Add to that the anime's dubious canonicity as well as the other contradictions present within it, and I just don't see how one can justify using that version over this one for any other reason than "we want a higher result".
Reason #2: More Consistent with NaruSasu's SPCT
Yeah, this is another issue that came up during the original thread that the OP has not addressed whatsoever.
Hagoromo and Hamura's SPCT being so dramatically superior to Naruto and Sasuke's version makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I believe I put it well in my original thread:

So, yeah.
Reason #3: More Consistent in General?
I know that to a lot of you, this argument I'm about to make will seem like some malicious downplaying, or whatever, but it is what it is. It is something worth addressing IMHO.
So, the anime version of the feat is around 78 Zettatons, I believe.
Rasengan Uzuhiko is rated at 632.449 Zettatons.
That's an 8.1x difference for those wondering.

Now, the way we currently scale things makes it so people scale physically to the SPCT as early as Shippuden. Let's use Kaguya as a baseline. Let's say she'd be around 78 Zettatons. Through various scaling chains and multipliers, V2 Jigen scales around 12x higher than her, which would put him at around 936 Zettatons.
Now, it doesn't stop there. The way we currently scale things makes it so 'Hidari > Limitless Code >> V2 Jigen'.
And, uh, yeah, Uzuhiko did this to Hidari.

Now, I'm ngl, I have my own personal gripes with a lot of the scaling I just laid out. But that's neither here nor there because
A) I don't plan to tackle any of it anytime soon, if ever.
B) That is the currently accepted status quo.

So, like it or not, consistency with said status quo is something ya'll have to content with if you want the other calc to be accepted.
If that offends some of you, then oh well, my bad lol.

"But Uzuhiko can just scale above the 936 Zettatons value, it's not actually hard-capped at ~632 Zettatons"
Sure, that's true enough. But I feel like that's putting a band aid on one of the issues I've laid out, and ignoring the rest. Uzuhiko on its own may not be a defeater, but compounded with everything else? I feel like it just adds insult to injury if that makes sense.

So, basically, the main thing is that you guys need to build a compelling argument for why the anime calc trumps the currently used version regardless of all the lore debates discussed previously in this post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, in conclusion, I think the OP has made a solid attempt at debunking my lore-related arguments. However, I do not believe the debunk attempt was all that conclusive. Additionally, I don't think other vital aspects of why the currently used calc is better were addressed at all. So all in all, I am personally in favor of continuing to use the current calc, and as a result do not agree with the thread.

So as to not extend this further than it is, I will just say I favor more UchihaSlayer's arguments, though there were some things I find more appealing in OP.

Nevertheless, the core issue (to me) is indeed what I quote above and what makes me side more with UchihaSlayer.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

oh well, at least we tried

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So as to not extend this further than it is, I will just say I favor more UchihaSlayer's arguments, though there were some things I find more appealing in OP.

Nevertheless, the core issue (to me) is indeed what I quote above and what makes me side more with UchihaSlayer.

before dropping arguing on this thread I will say, you chose the worst points to be swayed by,

uzuhiko arg is baseless and the ignorance of "x is more accurate so we should take this instead" is weird, why not remove toneris calc too & swap with baseline 5C using this logic.


Woulda been better to agree to his lore side of things cuz that's where I believe his arguments somewhat have an edge but oh well, not much to do about it.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

What power did you think Toneri was referencing when? He mentioned the power that can move the moon (↑). What moon was he talking about? When was the moon moved, and who moved it?

Below is a narrative implication that dismisses the writer's intent: The moon was created by Hago and Hamura and hurled by them.

“Later, towards the end of Hagoromo's life, he utilizes his telekinesis to move the moon into orbit. This encompasses two aspects: 1) moving the moon radially outwards, and 2) imparting enough tangential velocity to the moon such that it can maintain its orbit. “

The narrative implications discredit Hamura from the moon moving feat which makes absolutely no sense as there will be nothing to reference when Toneri spoke about the power to move the moon, because we know it was only moved once when the SPCT happened as shown in the only adaptation of the feat we have.

Toneri is explicitly referring to 'Hamura's Tenseigan', the big orb made up of Byakugans that was able to move the moon throughout the whole movie.
Toneri literally never met or knew Hamura, which is a huge plot point in the movie as he drastically misinterpreted his will and intentions.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Lol

 

[Samlex1234]

So as to not extend this further than it is, I will just say I favor more UchihaSlayer's arguments, though there were some things I find more appealing in OP.

Nevertheless, the core issue (to me) is indeed what I quote above and what makes me side more with UchihaSlayer.

I had a feeling this would happen. But it fine, it is well.

 

[Samlex1234]

Toneri is explicitly referring to 'Hamura's Tenseigan', the big orb made up of Byakugans that was able to move the moon throughout the whole movie.
Toneri literally never met or knew Hamura, which is a huge plot point in the movie as he drastically misinterpreted his will and intentions.

You scrap that part and many evidence provided above still stands.

Heyy @Tom4t0GG789 can you request for this to be closed there is no point waiting anyone lets move on.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

You scrap that part and many evidence provided above still stands.

Heyy @Tom4t0GG789 can you request for this to be closed there is no point waiting anyone lets move on.

Someone wanted to say their opinion
Let em

I know it’s rejected but let’s not rush

 

[Samlex1234]

Alright for any mod that needs the counters after slayers point.

Ok I think all of his lore arguments are destroyed with this


Slayer's OG crt says this



Slayer argues a moon is made, Hags takes Juubi in himself and sometime later scatters the bijuu and pops gedo mazo back in the moon and then shoots it out. For him to be correct the two jutsu MUST be treated as separate techniques by the narrative. But as seen here

the creation of the SPCT as well as the celestial body transfer are both parts of the same jutsu as said by zetsu showing us the result

This is consistent as the other panel I sent yesterday says the same thing SEALED AWAY AND BLASTED INTO THE SKY which results in them saying IT BECAME THE MOON right below

​

so that means his interpretation is wrong and that the moon was made and shot into the sky as per the original calc together as suggested by the first calc,
Checkmate Lil bro

A moon is a natural satellite of a body. So, for something to be classified as a "moon" it would technically need to be in space orbiting its main celestial body, aka until the "moon" is put into orbit, it isn't technically a "moon". Or more simply, it can be completely created as a giant rocky sphere, but doesn't become a "moon" until it is sent into space to orbit earth.

Even if the lore can’t be used I don’t think it should bar the transfer calc from being used, regardless of which lore you subscribe to, everyone here agrees that the celestial body has been hurled into space, he should be credited based on that

Consider the anime fully non canon, it’ll solely be used on the basis as the only adaptation of the feat, a point that slayer does not mind


Going by his route hags should get 78*2 since he allegedly did it solo lolz

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So as to not extend this further than it is, I will just say I favor more UchihaSlayer's arguments, though there were some things I find more appealing in OP.

Nevertheless, the core issue (to me) is indeed what I quote above and what makes me side more with UchihaSlayer.

before dropping arguing on this thread I will say, you chose the best points to be swayed by,

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

before dropping arguing on this thread I will say, you chose the best points to be swayed by,

As always

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You scrap that part and many evidence provided above still stands.

I singled out that part because, in my humble estimation, the others have sufficiently answered the other points brought up.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

before dropping arguing on this thread I will say, you chose the best points to be swayed by,

 

[Qawsedf234]

I was asked to comment. What are like, the major pro and con posts for this thread?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The OP and Slayer’s big post are like the two most single comprehensive posts, that contain the majority of the basis of these arguments. The rest are smaller posts here and there delving into specifics.

 

[Damage3245]

I was asked to comment. What are like, the major pro and con posts for this thread?

The OP and Slayer's response can be found here.

 

[Samlex1234]

I was asked to comment. What are the major pros and cons of posts for this thread?

Hey, Qawsed, please kindly check the most recent rebuttals to Slayer's post. I have gathered them above.

Summary

We used to have a calculation for 5B Six Path Chibaku Tensei, which created the moon. It uses a visual representation of the feat in the anime. Slayers' argument is that the anime has some narrative implications and should not be used. Thus, the feat was separated into two, one for the creation of the Chibaku Tensei and the other for lifting it into space after some years.