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Austin Theory vs Kirumi Tojo

RandomGuy2345 said:
I kinda feel like making a WWE matchup tier list where I rank a portion of the matchups we've done for the verse from worst to best.
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Turns out I can't make a tier list because in order to login into my TierMaker account, I need to login into my Twitter account.

Twitter is blocked on my laptop.

Can someone help make one?
 
Pikaman said:
Tbf the weapon argument holds a lot more validity against Top Tiers than God Tiers
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Before we found more skill/IR feats for the verse, the weapon argument would've been valid.

But now, I can make an argument that Theory > The Jericho that faced Tsukasa in terms of skill.
 
So I did kinda promise I’d give my input here today (while I’m probably too late to do anything important since grace has hit would be nice if someone temporarily cancelled their vote to not put my arguments on a timer but eh)


RandomGuy2345 said:
Kirumi upscales from 3.68 MJ, while Theory is 2.84 MJ. A roughly 1.3x AP advantage. Nothing game changing, though Kirumi does upscale from her AP value, though Theory can negate that AP disadvantage with his finishers, which he has 3 of.
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Not game changing, but could be noted just in case anyways. Finishers are always an important issue though, and Theory having 3 does kinda make him trickier than most, at least in the context of a vs battle.


RandomGuy2345 said:
Theory is Peak Human. Kirumi is Athletic Human. Don't really need to say much other than this will be very detrimental for Kirumi to try and grapple with...a wrestler who has many years of experience in grappling/wrestling. For what it's worth, Kirumi can lift Theory's body weight, so maybe that could help her here.
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Yeah Kirumi gets her ass kicked by Theory in the grappling game, it’s a big strength for him.


RandomGuy2345 said:
Kirumi is surprisingly a lot more skilled than I initially thought. Though I still Theory holds the advantage here. Not only does he have actual on screen feats (which most of the Dangan verse lacks), but said on screen feats are more impressive than the skill feats Kirumi has demonstrated. Far from a skill stomp, but Theory does hold the edge in overall CQC. I will say that Theory's experience could be a detriment here, which I will explain a bit later.
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Kirumi can certainly keep up thanks to her feats skill wise, but Theory most definitely holds the CQC advantage here by a fair distance thanks to a combination of finishers, skill and LS

RandomGuy2345 said:
Kirumi holds a clear advantage here, having extended melee range with her Wooden Pole, and apparently dozens of meters with her guns(?). I'm wary about her guns, but since it's not listed on her standard equipment section, I think it's fine to restrict them and let her keep her Wooden Pole.
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The wooden pole (if we’re giving it to her) is a game-changer, but I’ll get more into that later
RandomGuy2345 said:
Theory can last in a fight for extended amounts of time while taking shots from foreign objects like steel chairs, steel steps, and kendo sticks, which all leave many welts and bruises all over the wrestlers body. He can also fight through injuries such as broken fingers and a swollen/broken jaw. This is all very impressive, but I think Kirumi has him beat (though it's not by much). Being sliced/lacerated multiple times by circular saws while receiving piercing damage on her hands is a bit more impressive than what Theory has shown.
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It’s LEAGUES above what Theory has shown. Kirumi’s execution is one of the most brutal displays of willpower and endurance in all of DRV. I would take getting a broken jaw and getting hit by steel chairs and kendo sticks SO much quicker than climbing up a rope covered in thorns while getting lacerations all over my body from circular saws. The two aren’t comparable in the slightest



Now, ladies and gentlemen, roll up roll up, it’s time for intelligence to be a useful attribute in a vs match! Shocking, I know.

Kirumi is so much smarter than Theory it’s not funny. Theory is good in combat but he’s at times been portrayed as a bit dim-witted outside of combat scenarios, and Kirumi has the other advantages needed to capitalise on what is normally not a relevant advantage, those being Range, Endurance, and Social Influencing

To put it simply, Kirumi’s best shot at victory is getting the jump on Theory, or just outright halting him altogether, through her social influencing. Range keeps Theory mostly at bay (WWE vs Weapons has been discussed many times before, but usually with God Tiers of skill such as Jericho. The verse has gathered skill feats since the likes of Jericho vs Tsukasa, but I’m not convinced they’re enough in the specific scenario of a weapon to say the Top Tiers of today are more skilled than the God Tiers of yesterday, especially for someone like Theory who lacks the experience in this field on account of his youth.) while Endurance ensures if Theory does tag her she can afford it a few times, even if he resorts to a finisher. That allows her to abuse her social influencing, which is well above Theory’s, and manipulate him into really whatever she needs to win. Docile and unsuspecting, subjected to such blinding range he loses any semblance of fighting skill, she could feasibly manipulate Theory as she pleases with ample opportunities to do so, if she figures out she can do such a thing in time. Kirumi is a capable and skilled opponent with a range advantage, and will naturally lead with offence, how that opening encounter goes decides this match really. Theory could lock her in CQC and not give her options to escape, he could disarm her and remove the effectiveness of her best win-con, or he could, albeit on an extremely unlikely occasion, hit her with a finisher early, and shift momentum massively in his favour. If Kirumi gets time to rationalise her strategy and find the best course of action to take Theory down, she can do it with relative ease imo. But she has to survive that initial encounter where her only saving grace is her mildly superior AP and her endurance advantage, as well as range. If Theory gets her in CQC early on he can swing it his way, fail and he probably pays the price. I’ll wait for Random to respond before I make any decisions though, this is a very tight one.
 
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Imagine if he just ghosted the thread and came back in 17 hours like “yup grace has passed we can add this to profiles now” 😭😭😭
 
Pikaman said:
Not game changing, but could be noted just in case anyways. Finishers are always an important issue though, and Theory having 3 does kinda make him trickier than most, at least in the context of a vs battle.
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His ATL in specific is performed very quickly, which doesn't leave Kirumi much, if any time to counter, especially against someone who has higher LS.

Pikaman said:
Yeah Kirumi gets her ass kicked by Theory in the grappling game, it’s a big strength for him.
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Which is something Theory heavily utilizes in his matches, so it'll be extremely detrimental for Kirumi to do this.

Pikaman said:
The wooden pole (if we’re giving it to her) is a game-changer, but I’ll get more into that later
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I think I already know what you're going to say...

Pikaman said:
To put it simply, Kirumi’s best shot at victory is getting the jump on Theory, or just outright halting him altogether, through her social influencing. Range keeps Theory mostly at bay (WWE vs Weapons has been discussed many times before, but usually with God Tiers of skill such as Jericho. The verse has gathered skill feats since the likes of Jericho vs Tsukasa, but I’m not convinced they’re enough in the specific scenario of a weapon to say the Top Tiers of today are more skilled than the God Tiers of yesterday, especially for someone like Theory who lacks the experience in this field on account of his youth.)
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Yeah, no. Trying to get the jump on Theory is a tough task already because the dude is already more skilled, and he has IR on top of that. Also, I'd argue that the Top Tiers of today are more skilled than the God Tiers of yesterday. Hell, you even argued in the Finn vs Tsukasa thread that Finn was more skilled than the Jericho that faced Tsukasa now that we gained more skill feats for the verse. Not only does Theory scale far above Axiom, but he's also able to consistently hit the likes of Dexter Lumis, whose "Sixth Sense" helps him fight while blindfolded. Kirumi has never dealt with someone on this level of skill before. If we were using the Theory before those skill feats were found, than I would 100% concede to your argument, but with all of these new skill feats, I'd argue that using weapons on Top Tiers is a lot easier said than done. Theory's Instinctive Reactions already make it a tough challenge, but if you also consider the wrestlers he scales above and compares to, it makes it a lot tougher for people with weapons to hit the Top Tiers of WWE.

Pikaman said:
while Endurance ensures if Theory does tag her she can afford it a few times, even if he resorts to a finisher.
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Vice versa for Theory. A wooden pole is basically a more thick version of a kendo stick, which is nothing out of the ordinary for the WWE verse, who takes hits from steel on many occasions. Kirumi has nothing that does significantly more damage than her normal moves, unlike Theory. And while you can make an argument that Kirumi can fight through getting hit with one of Theory's finishers, she's still going to be severely weakened. Keep in mind that the bottom of the barrel of the WWE verse managed to cause great harm to one of the most skilled/powerful in the verse.

Pikaman said:
That allows her to abuse her social influencing, which is well above Theory’s, and manipulate him into really whatever she needs to win. Docile and unsuspecting, subjected to such blinding range he loses any semblance of fighting skill, she could feasibly manipulate Theory as she pleases with ample opportunities to do so, if she figures out she can do such a thing in time.
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Believe it or not, this is actually Kirumi's best win con imo. Theory is still a rookie, and he does make many rookie mistakes, and that does make him fairly naive. Most of Theory's SL revolves around taunting the opponent, or finding many different methods in getting in the opponents head to rile them up or throw them off their game. I'm not too familiar with Kirumi, but afaik, she doesn't resist SL, nor has any showings of having a strong will to resist getting manipulated. So Theory can use his SL to gain an advantage, but admittedly, Kirumi's SL is better. I will like to say that even if Theory loses any semblance of fighting skill, he still has his IR, which is not skill whatsoever. It's just a very good supporting ability. This is all assuming that Kirumi can figure that she has to SL Theory in order to win.

Pikaman said:
Theory could lock her in CQC and not give her options to escape, he could disarm her and remove the effectiveness of her best win-con, or he could, albeit on an extremely unlikely occasion, hit her with a finisher early, and shift momentum massively in his favour.
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Quite literally all of these options, except hitting a finisher early, are all extremely viable ways Theory can take this. Most WWE wrestlers prefer a CQC fight anyway, and don't really rely on weapons, so I wouldn't consider it OOC for Theory to disarm Kirumi to make it a fair 1v1 match. This is something Theory can quite easily do thanks to his LS advantage. Theory can obviously dodge the attack as well. Hell, Theory can even use the weapon himself. He has Weapon Mastery after all, and a Wooden Pole isn't anything outlandish for the WWE verse as well.

Pikaman said:
If Kirumi gets time to rationalise her strategy and find the best course of action to take Theory down, she can do it with relative ease imo. But she has to survive that initial encounter where her only saving grace is her mildly superior AP and her endurance advantage, as well as range. If Theory gets her in CQC early on he can swing it his way, fail and he probably pays the price.
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I also forgot to mention that this fight is taking place in Theory's home turf (WWE ring), so Theory already has the immediate advantage in the fight, as his Skill, LS, Experience, and IR will all come into play here. Kirumi has no experience fighting in a wrestling ring, while Theory knows it like the back of his hand. This also means that Theory's versatile moveset will come into play as well. Kirumi will basically have to be dealing with a different strike, grapple, and even occasionally an aerial/athletic moves throughout the entire fight, while Theory doesn't really need to be wary of what Kirumi can do, as she has no real moveset. She's obviously very skilled, but Theory's versatility will come into play here.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
His ATL in specific is performed very quickly, which doesn't leave Kirumi much, if any time to counter, especially against someone who has higher LS.
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Agreed, but she’s not totally outclassed in the skill department, and you yourself admitted it’ll take more than one finisher to put her down


RandomGuy2345 said:
Which is something Theory heavily utilizes in his matches, so it'll be extremely detrimental for Kirumi to do this.
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Oh but I thought in Theory vs Little Mac he was more of a risk-taker


RandomGuy2345 said:
Yeah, no. Trying to get the jump on Theory is a tough task already because the dude is already more skilled, and he has IR on top of that.
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You know very well yourself from a few WWE threads and dare I mention Johnny Test vs Junko that Social Influencing is a MASSIVE weapon that Kirumi will be able to use with extreme effectiveness, IR for Theory doesn’t have a great amount of showings, I’ve never really considered it one of his more useful abilities as it stands because it’s very obviously something that can be overtaxed by skill that Kirumi hardly falls large distances short of, combined a range advantage, and she about balances even with the people who are able to hit Theory with pretty nice consistency (Not to say that Instinctive Reaction won’t be an asset here, it will occasionally save Theory’s skin)


RandomGuy2345 said:
Hell, you even argued in the Finn vs Tsukasa thread that Finn was more skilled than the Jericho that faced Tsukasa now that we gained more skill feats for the verse.
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I think I’ve been fairly vocal in my opinion that Finn outclasses his fellow Top Tiers in skill because of his ability to compete amongst them (and God Tiers) despite his size. Finn has always been a God Tier skilled character stuck inside a Top Tier Character physically for me

RandomGuy2345 said:
Not only does Theory scale far above Axiom
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How much. How much money to never hear this mf mentioned in a thread again 😭😭😭


RandomGuy2345 said:
but he's also able to consistently hit the likes of Dexter Lumis, whose "Sixth Sense" helps him fight while blindfolded
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That’s fair but technically applies to CQC. Dealing with weapons is a whole other skillset that Theory lacks experience in when compared to the average WWE Wrestler


RandomGuy2345 said:
Vice versa for Theory. A wooden pole is basically a more thick version of a kendo stick, which is nothing out of the ordinary for the WWE verse, who takes hits from steel on many occasions.
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Not... totally how it works. It still holds a 1.3x AP advantage, which is semi-substantial, though of course Theory does have good endurance, I’m not denying that


RandomGuy2345 said:
I'm not too familiar with Kirumi, but afaik, she doesn't resist SL, nor has any showings of having a strong will to resist getting manipulated
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I haven’t actually played V3, so my memory wouldn’t be mega-reliable either. You’d have to ask @Adem_Warlock69


RandomGuy2345 said:
This is all assuming that Kirumi can figure that she has to SL Theory in order to win.
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She will likely figure this out by the end of her first encounter. She’s smart enough to recognise CQC will only lead to a loss, and work her way around her very much usable advantages from there


RandomGuy2345 said:
I will like to say that even if Theory loses any semblance of fighting skill, he still has his IR
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Yeah IR alone Theory is getting his ass whooped ngl 😭


The issue with Theory holding all his advantages in CQC is that Kirumi will be actively avoiding it. She can manipulate this fight to revolve around her strengths and stray from her weaknesses, Theory’s “Arena Control” so to speak isn’t on that level, even on his own home turf. Kirumi really just has to avoid getting shit on initially, and work her way towards a SI based win from there. I’m still a teensy iffy on if she can manage, but I’m sure Adem has an opinion on that, and he’s more versed than me I’m sure
 
How would Tojo know how good he is at grappling? Because he's wearing boxers like a wrestler? Kirumi gets grabbed ONCE and it's over. I'm also not seeing how it's in character for Kirumi to use SI in a fight over just actually subduing her target.
 
DivineAura44 said:
How would Tojo know how good he is at grappling? Because he's wearing boxers like a wrestler?
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I mean, she is very intelligent, it’s a reasonable enough assumption
DivineAura44 said:
Kirumi gets grabbed ONCE and it's over
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Bit of an overstatement if we’re being real. People need to stop pretending LS Advantage = Free Win-Con, when in reality Kirumi has the skills and endurance to deal with getting grappled occasionally, even if it is a blind spot for her in this match


DivineAura44 said:
I'm also not seeing how it's in character for Kirumi to use SI in a fight over just actually subduing her target.
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Because she’s smart enough to know when she’s beat in CQC, and Social Influencing is her next best option
 
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