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Austin Theory vs Kirumi Tojo

Pikaman said:
I mean, she is very intelligent, it’s a reasonable enough assumption
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...
Bit of an overstatement if we’re being real. People need to stop pretending LS Advantage = Free Win-Con, when in reality Kirumi has the skills and endurance to deal with getting grappled occasionally, even if it is a blind spot for her in this match
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Bit of an understatement if we're being real. People need to stop pretending humans without good grapple escape feats have the skills to break out of a grapple from Austin Theory.
Because she’s smart enough to know when she’s beat in CQC, and Social Influencing is her next best option
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Bit too late for once she's been hit by any of Austin's finishers, innit?
 
Pikaman said:
Bit of an overstatement if we’re being real. People need to stop pretending LS Advantage = Free Win-Con, when in reality Kirumi has the skills and endurance to deal with getting grappled occasionally, even if it is a blind spot for her in this match
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I mean...it kinda is a free win-con.

Theory isn't a submission specialist by any stretch of the imagination (and tbh he doesn't rely on submissions to get a win most of the time), but he obviously knows the basics of grappling and then some, especially since he utilizes grapples in his fights quite a bit.

Kirumi has no clue what she's dealing with. She has no clue if Theory is an experienced grappler or not. Assuming she can just by looking at what he's wearing is a bit of a stretch.

Even then, Kirumi still has to deal with Theory's whole entire moveset, which isn't just entirely grapples.
 
Pikaman said:
Agreed, but she’s not totally outclassed in the skill department, and you yourself admitted it’ll take more than one finisher to put her down
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That's...not the point I was trying to convey at all. I was saying that Kirumi can't counter Theory's ATL quick enough, and yes. It'll take more than one finisher to put Kirumi down, that one finisher is already going to deal hefty amounts of damage. Kirumi will be severely weakened, basically leaving her a sitting duck to get hit with another one when Theory realizes that she still has some fight left in her.

Pikaman said:
Oh but I thought in Theory vs Little Mac he was more of a risk-taker
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Mf what?

Pikaman said:
You know very well yourself from a few WWE threads and dare I mention Johnny Test vs Junko that Social Influencing is a MASSIVE weapon that Kirumi will be able to use with extreme effectiveness, IR for Theory doesn’t have a great amount of showings, I’ve never really considered it one of his more useful abilities as it stands because it’s very obviously something that can be overtaxed by skill that Kirumi hardly falls large distances short of, combined a range advantage, and she about balances even with the people who are able to hit Theory with pretty nice consistency (Not to say that Instinctive Reaction won’t be an asset here, it will occasionally save Theory’s skin)
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Heavy disagree.

1. Junko's SL is on a whole different level compared to most, if not, everyone from Danganronpa.
2. Theory is noticeably more skilled, higher LS, IR, as well as having feats of consistently hitting opponents who have shown "senses" far beyond Kirumi's capabilities. A range advantage isn't going to do much here.

Pikaman said:
I think I’ve been fairly vocal in my opinion that Finn outclasses his fellow Top Tiers in skill because of his ability to compete amongst them (and God Tiers) despite his size. Finn has always been a God Tier skilled character stuck inside a Top Tier Character physically for me
Click to expand...
That's quite literally your own bias coming into play lol. Theory with only 6 years of experience has already fought and defeated some of the best in the business, Finn Balor included. The fact that only a rookie has already accomplished this much in a relatively short amount of time already says a lot. Balor doesn't outclass his fellow Top Tiers in skill. That's just you playing favorites.

Pikaman said:
How much. How much money to never hear this mf mentioned in a thread again 😭😭😭
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$1 trillion, aka you're going to hear this guy a lot in WWE threads, as it's still a relevant feat that a lot wrestlers scale far above.

Pikaman said:
That’s fair but technically applies to CQC. Dealing with weapons is a whole other skillset that Theory lacks experience in when compared to the average WWE Wrestler
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Um, not really. I'm quite sure Lumis would be able to dodge an attack with a weapon via his Sixth Sense. It shouldn't really make a difference. Also, what Theory lacks in experience, he makes up heavily with his skill, which is a big reason why he's defeated so many of his opponents, and even then, Theory should be more than familiar with weapons like kendo sticks, steel chairs, steel steps, and many, many more. A wooden pole seriously nothing out of the ordinary.

Pikaman said:
Not... totally how it works. It still holds a 1.3x AP advantage, which is semi-substantial, though of course Theory does have good endurance, I’m not denying that
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PTSD from that time when One Piece fans thought a 1.3x AP advantage is game changing, even though it's far from it.

Pikaman said:
She will likely figure this out by the end of her first encounter. She’s smart enough to recognise CQC will only lead to a loss, and work her way around her very much usable advantages from there
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Assuming that Kirumi doesn't get trapped in CQC by Theory, which Theory is perfectly capable of doing, especially since this fight is taking place in his home turf, which Kirumi has no experience in.

Pikaman said:
The issue with Theory holding all his advantages in CQC is that Kirumi will be actively avoiding it.
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Read my comment above. The comment above perfectly explains why this will be a tough task.

Pikaman said:
Theory’s “Arena Control” so to speak isn’t on that level, even on his own home turf.
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Having 6 years of experience in your home turf >>>>>>>>>>> having 0 experience in said turf. This is Theory's playground, a playground Kirumi has no experience with. She'll have to find a way to adapt to it, which will be very hard to do against someone with many years of experience in this arena, as well as being the lesser skilled of the two. She'll have to avoid a CQC fight, as well as adapt to the environment around her, which are both very tough tasks to pull off here.

Pikaman said:
Kirumi really just has to avoid getting shit on initially, and work her way towards a SI based win from there.
Click to expand...
The thing is that she's getting shit on initially because of her skill disadvantage, as well as her lack of experience in the arena she's in. How is she, someone with 0 grappling/wrestling experience, going to escape a grapple from someone with 6 years of grappling/wrestling experience, who also happens to have higher LS than her?

I think Theory takes this high diff via his advantages actually playing a bigger factor than Kirumi's. Other than her SL, what can she do to win this fight? She lacks the skill, LS, experience, and versatility to deal with Theory. Her SL is her only reliable win con, and I'm not even sure if she can pull that off.
 
He made one counter to my points, one counter to yours and went to sleep. Give the man a break, he's earned it for all the shit he has to put up with. If he doesn't make an argument in 12 hours you can count my vote for Theory.
 
so whats the verdict now? Theory can cover for any advantage Kirumi has through his Skill which hard counters her AP advantage since she'll get her ass beat in CQC alongside finishers cover for her insane endurance if Theory is able to get a good beating on her, Kirumi's "range" is a wooden pole which isn't exactly the most effect weapon and a gun which isn't even listed in her standard equipment nor do I remember her having it in V3 for most of it, her only real advantage is she could possibly make use of is her Social influencing which yknow isn't the most reliable of Win-cons compared to "i'll punch you multiple times" and her endurance which Theory has plenty of as well, there is no evidence on the profile stating she'd have just some gun, if she did then you could make the argument of "She'll get beaten in CQC and realize its not the smart option, retreat and use the gun" but since its not even listed as standard equipment, she might not even have that.
 
DivineAura44 said:
💀💀💀 you right. Go ahead and get some rest, I'll try to hold down the fort for as long as possible.
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I was somewhat joking.

I am a bit tired, but I have no school tomorrow, and I still have energy in me, so I'll see if anyone does make any new arguments for Kirumi.

Can I also say that this has probably been the best WWE versus thread since the LS downgrades?
 
Bruhtelho said:
so whats the verdict now? Theory can cover for any advantage Kirumi has through his Skill which hard counters her AP advantage since she'll get her ass beat in CQC alongside finishers cover for her insane endurance if Theory is able to get a good beating on her, Kirumi's "range" is a wooden pole which isn't exactly the most effect weapon and a gun which isn't even listed in her standard equipment nor do I remember her having it in V3 for most of it, her only real advantage is she could possibly make use of is her Social influencing which yknow isn't the most reliable of Win-cons compared to "i'll punch you multiple times" and her endurance which Theory has plenty of as well, there is no evidence on the profile stating she'd have just some gun, if she did then you could make the argument of "She'll get beaten in CQC and realize its not the smart option, retreat and use the gun" but since its not even listed as standard equipment, she might not even have that.
Click to expand...
Wruhtelho
 
I don't know why her Pain Tolerance is being hyped up so much. It doesn't much her less susceptible to being knocked out, it just makes her more willing to take damage and power through. Let me give a scenario.
A Random Guy is diagnosed with complete nerve damage. This means he can't feel anything. Does this mean said Random Guy can't die or be knocked out? No. It just means anything that doesn't damage organs or kill won't matter because they won't feel pain. They can still be knocked out.
 
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DivineAura44 said:
A Random Guy is diagnosed with damage nerves. This means he can't feel anything. Does this mean said Random Guy can't die? No. It just means anything that doesn't damage organs or kill won't matter because they won't feel pain.
Click to expand...
???

What's funny though is that I think there was a Triple H match where he was suffering from some kind of injury, which lead to nerve damage, yet he was still able to fight through the pain, though he eventually succumbed to it and lost the fight.
 
Just wanna say this isn't necessarily a perfect example because a hypothetical person without nerves couldn't be knocked out but it's not for pain reasons.
 
DivineAura44 said:
I don't know why her Pain Tolerance is being hyped up so much. It doesn't much her less susceptible to being knocked out, it just makes her more willing to take damage and power through. Let me give a scenario.
A Random Guy is diagnosed with damage nerves. This means he can't feel anything. Does this mean said Random Guy can't die or be knocked out? No. It just means anything that doesn't damage organs or kill won't matter because they won't feel pain. They can still be knocked out.
Click to expand...
But yes. What you said here is true.
 
Yeah I really doubt she used a gun in V3. She's supposed to be like really nice & shit. It's the whole reason she's a good maid, she likes taking care of/catering to people. It would completely throw off her character if she pulled up with a Glock 9.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Bit of an understatement if we're being real. People need to stop pretending humans without good grapple escape feats have the skills to break out of a grapple from Austin Theory.
Click to expand...
And when Theory grapples her he... just hits her with some kind of move, and then the grapple is over. Do you think he’s gonna hold her for 24 hours?


DivineAura44 said:
Bit too late for once she's been hit by any of Austin's finishers, innit?
Click to expand...
Possibly, but this is literally their first exchange. The odds of Theory going for a finisher that early are astronomically low, and even if he went for it Kirumi wouldn’t instantly lose, just be in a very difficult position


RandomGuy2345 said:
That's...not the point I was trying to convey at all. I was saying that Kirumi can't counter Theory's ATL quick enough, and yes. It'll take more than one finisher to put Kirumi down, that one finisher is already going to deal hefty amounts of damage. Kirumi will be severely weakened, basically leaving her a sitting duck to get hit with another one when Theory realizes that she still has some fight left in her.
Click to expand...
Which is where her non-combat related advantages like Social Influencing kick in...


RandomGuy2345 said:
1. Junko's SL is on a whole different level compared to most, if not, everyone from Danganronpa
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Well I’m hardly doubting that, but I don’t see how that’s relevant to my point


RandomGuy2345 said:
That's quite literally your own bias coming into play lol. Theory with only 6 years of experience has already fought and defeated some of the best in the business, Finn Balor included. The fact that only a rookie has already accomplished this much in a relatively short amount of time already says a lot. Balor doesn't outclass his fellow Top Tiers in skill. That's just you playing favorites.
Click to expand...
My point is that I personally think “pound-for-pound” Cesaro style Finn is more skilled, and just held back by his physical limitations also you play favourites with Theory too don’t lie, we all do it with our favourite characters


RandomGuy2345 said:
Assuming that Kirumi doesn't get trapped in CQC by Theory, which Theory is perfectly capable of doing, especially since this fight is taking place in his home turf, which Kirumi has no experience in.
Click to expand...
Fair enough


RandomGuy2345 said:
Having 6 years of experience in your home turf >>>>>>>>>>> having 0 experience in said turf. This is Theory's playground, a playground Kirumi has no experience with. She'll have to find a way to adapt to it, which will be very hard to do against someone with many years of experience in this arena, as well as being the lesser skilled of the two. She'll have to avoid a CQC fight, as well as adapt to the environment around her, which are both very tough tasks to pull off here.
Click to expand...
Tbf adapting to the horrific nightmare of... a wrestling ring isn’t incredibly crazy. The ropes prove difficult but Theory’s not some high-flyer who loves lunging himself off of those, it’s really a squared arena, which is a very easy concept to grasp, especially for one of Kirumi’s smarts. Again, Theory’s home turf advantage IS an advantage, but Kirumi’s manipulation is just superior in allowing her to control the flow of a match


RandomGuy2345 said:
The thing is that she's getting shit on initially because of her skill disadvantage, as well as her lack of experience in the arena she's in.
Click to expand...
I think you’re being very harsh. Theory’s best chance is to keep her close and trap her in CQC combat, he doesn’t need to inherently “shit on” Kirumi to do that. I don’t think Kirumi is behind Theory in CQC on THAT kinda level


RandomGuy2345 said:
I'm quite sure Lumis would be able to dodge an attack with a weapon via his Sixth Sense
Click to expand...
NLF

RandomGuy2345 said:
Theory should be more than familiar with weapons like kendo sticks, steel chairs, steel steps, and many, many more. A wooden pole seriously nothing out of the ordinary.
Click to expand...
Sure he’s familiar, but he lacks the experience most would have, and we can’t just assume Theory will be as good at dodging weapons as he is at dodging people

Bruhtelho said:
she'll get her ass beat in CQC
Click to expand...
Bit harsh on her

Bruhtelho said:
Kirumi's "range" is a wooden pole which isn't exactly the most effect weapon
Click to expand...
Well Kendo Sticks have worked well for WWE wrestlers...


Bruhtelho said:
her only real advantage is she could possibly make use of is her Social influencing
Click to expand...
That’s an oversimplification of how she can use her Social Influencing to win this, it involves a long list of heavily linked advantages, not just “oh crap I’m in trouble let me try and use SI”


DivineAura44 said:
I don't know why her Pain Tolerance is being hyped up so much. It doesn't much her less susceptible to being knocked out, it just makes her more willing to take damage and power through. Let me give a scenario.
A Random Guy is diagnosed with complete nerve damage. This means he can't feel anything. Does this mean said Random Guy can't die or be knocked out? No. It just means anything that doesn't damage organs or kill won't matter because they won't feel pain. They can still be knocked out.
Click to expand...
Watch her execution, and you’ll see the level of pain tolerance and supernatural willpower we are talking about. Pain Tolerance is a huge help in matches (it has been for WWE before) and her endurance lets her get up from stuff she really shouldn’t
 
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Pikaman said:
And when Theory grapples her he... just hits her with some kind of move, and then the grapple is over. Do you think he’s gonna hold her for 24 hours?



Possibly, but this is literally their first exchange. The odds of Theory going for a finisher that early are astronomically low, and even if he went for it Kirumi wouldn’t instantly lose, just be in a very difficult position



Which is where her non-combat related advantages like Social Influencing kick in...



Well I’m hardly doubting that, but I don’t see how that’s relevant to my point



My point is that I personally think “pound-for-pound” Cesaro style Finn is more skilled, and just held back by his physical limitations also you play favourites with Theory too don’t lie, we all do it with our favourite characters



Fair enough



Tbf adapting to the horrific nightmare of... a wrestling ring isn’t incredibly crazy. The ropes prove difficult but Theory’s not some high-flyer who loves lunging himself off of those, it’s really a squared arena, which is a very easy concept to grasp, especially for one of Kirumi’s smarts. Again, Theory’s home turf advantage IS an advantage, but Kirumi’s manipulation is just superior in allowing her to control the flow of a match



I think you’re being very harsh. Theory’s best chance is to keep her close and trap her in CQC combat, he doesn’t need to inherently “shit on” Kirumi to do that. I don’t think Kirumi is behind Theory in CQC on THAT kinda level



NLF


Sure he’s familiar, but he lacks the experience most would have, and we can’t just assume Theory will be as good at dodging weapons as he is at dodging people


Bit harsh on her


Well Kendo Sticks have worked well for WWE wrestlers...



That’s an oversimplification of how she can use her Social Influencing to win this, it involves a long list of heavily linked advantages, not just “oh crap I’m in trouble let me try and use SI”



Watch her execution, and you’ll see the level of pain tolerance and supernatural willpower we are talking about. Pain Tolerance is a huge help in matches (it has been for WWE before) and her endurance lets her get up from stuff she really shouldn’t
Click to expand...
Once again as I've brought up in previous threads, it's not likely for anyone except this guy. However they will do what is necessarily to win.

That's wrong. If a wrestler faces a character far below them they will immediately go for their finisher. This even happened at WrestleMania of all places when Kane absolutely shidded on Chavo Guerrero.

I think you're underestimating Theory's intelligence. The second he sees her moving (whether to get up or not) he goes and puts her in another one. And I disagree with Random her. The first one would put her out.

Maybe because you pointed out how Junko's SI helped her a lot... Not saying your wrong. Just giving a reasoning.

No comment here, this one is for you 2 to discuss.

No comment.

I'd assume you don't have much experience with wrestling rings? Try to navigate around it when you can't escape, against someone very (if not more) athletic with you, and has tons of experience backing you into a corner. You'd immediately crumble and get caught in a bad predicament. But as it gives Theory too many advantages I'd prefer if Adem changed the arena from Wrestlemania to something else.

No comment but I've seen much reason to believe she isn't.

How? That's what Sixth Sense does, no?

He's not. He's comparing the weapon to many other common weapons wrestlers use and saying that with Theory's experience he shouldn't have much of a problem dodging it.

No comment.

He's talking about in the range department. He's referring to the fact that in range a wooden pole isn't a CRAZY advantage. You do also notice that you are playing both sides by saying it's unfair to compare weapons wrestlers us to a wooden pole but then directly comparing it to a kendo, right?

No comment. Just saying I haven't seen any reliable way for her to win other than SI.

Well if pain tolerance was being used that way before in WWE matchups and it led to a win then those matches have to be redone. It's that simple. Like I've said previously, pain tolerance doesn't mean you are more durable or there would b no reason to even add it to the profile. All it does is make you more like to take damage and not feel it. Since I am advocating for ATL to 1HKO.
 
Am I the only one here who's never seen Theory use a move called A Town Down? I've seen Unproven Cutter, Ataxia, and ofc ATL but never A Town Down (unless you talking about the theme song).
 
DivineAura44 said:
James Ellsworth who is a jobber in the WWE almost put away AJ Styles (solidified god tier) with a No Chin Music. So these moves can clearly put down people way stronger than themselves.
Click to expand...
Saying it's going to one-shot Kirumi who massively upscales over someone who's even stronger than Theory still seems like a stretch tho
 
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