Another Shinza Bansho revision: LDO tier 7 slight downgrade

[QuasiYuri]

Long story short, a big part of their Mountain level rating is based on Tubal Cain being stated to be able to split and shatter mountains.

Thing is... It isn't 7-A. Berserker Heracles has the same kind of statements in his own VN, and the very best end is 7-C.

(Shreiber leveling Berlin does seem to give 7-A based on this calc, but our current justifications aren't making anyone scale to this)

As such, the LDOs members who aren't Commanders should lose this rating.

But then I tried to see why they were City level+, and find that there's really nothing else justify that tier.

The justifications for their rating are being comparable to nukes. This I understand, and I'm ok with it. But most nukes are 7-C, with only the Tsar Bomba, the absolute strongest, being City level+. I don't think the current evidence we are using are enough to assume that they directly scale to the strongest nuke in all of existence, especially when it's more talking about "nukes" in general; and considered as "rivaling" rather than surpassing.

On the other side, we have statements like Wilhelm saying he can destroy Suwahara City, which, while uncalcable as far as I know, could be evidence for "possibly 7-B".

So I think something like "At leasy 7-C, possibly 7-B" may be a good thing. Don't mind more suggestions and scans tho.

 

[Bobsican]

We don't even have a timeframe for the city stuff, do we? In that case it can't really be used at all for the purposes of 7-B unless there's more to support it, which likely isn't the case, so just 7-C seems best.

 

[Ovy7]

Man, Shinza can't catch a break.

Looks good enough for me. I agree.

 

[Thelastmlg]

It does say they could "vaporize the town", and nukes hardly tend to vaporize city blocks from what i know.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It does say they could "vaporize the town", and nukes hardly tend to vaporize city blocks from what i know.

It's the same scene saying they rival nukes, so I thought that it was maybe a translation thing or Ren not being litteraly talking about vaporisation.

I mean, Shreiber himself didn't vaporise Berlin. Although that's also why I think there's room for debate.

 

[Bobsican]

It does say they could "vaporize the town", and nukes hardly tend to vaporize city blocks from what i know.

Well, "vaporize" is left too vague to assume that it goes that far on that regard, you don't need to entirely vaporize an entire city to clean it off the map, after all, let alone this being done in a single move.
Vaporization being involved just supports the 7-C rating, but not the 7-B one.

 

[ZERO7772]

Another? Jesus hell

Spoiler: of

Would have preferred if you somehow nuked their 3-A rating tho

 

[KingPin0422]

If I may make a correction: the Heracles calc you linked has a high end of 7-B, not 7-C. The result being used is Low 7-B, too. This lines up with what our page on Mountain/Island level calculates the various ways of destroying a mountain to be (you might have to scroll down a bit). Given that Tubal Cain's justification is about splitting/shattering mountains, I'm inclined to go with the same low-balled rating for him.

 

[ZERO7772]

I mean, this seems fine so far so I agree

IIRC Elenoer has a statement of being able to vaporize the park, which kei stated that such destructive power was only achievable for someone on the commanders level

 

[ZERO7772]

Also this would affect the Eastern Expedition cuz I think they are scaled from LDO.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Another? Jesus hell

Spoiler: of

Would have preferred if you somehow nuked their 3-A rating tho

Would first need to nuke 3-A of Sukuna and Ootake, their proof is faking Madara atwiki profile

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also this would affect the Eastern Expedition cuz I think they are scaled from LDO.

It isn't the only reason, and revisions for them are in preparation for later.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If I may make a correction: the Heracles calc you linked has a high end of 7-B, not 7-C. The result being used is Low 7-B, too. This lines up with what our page on Mountain/Island level calculates the various ways of destroying a mountain to be (you might have to scroll down a bit). Given that Tubal Cain's justification is about splitting/shattering mountains, I'm inclined to go with the same low-balled rating for him.

My bad, I thought I put 7-B.

But yeah. I just dk if the best would be a "at least" or a "possibly".

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me as well.

 

[Planck69]

Looks good.

 

[ZERO7772]

Anyway to give more input

Scaling them to general nukes seems far more reasonable than simply assuming they scale to the strongest nuke ever, especially when the narrative says that they "rival" nukes, which actually goes to show they are they are unlikely to scale to the strongest nuke ever cuz if they were they would have said they were immune to nukes, period.

I am against using Bey's statesmen however since no time frame or exact method was given to how he would achieve such feats, so a lot of assumptions would be involved

It worth mentioning that Cain is in fact the strongest LDO physically by good amount so characters like Rusalka and Kei probably doesn't scale to him btw.

Also would normal LDO members even scale to Shreiber?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Scaling to general nukes makes sense as DI constantly only makes nuke of them as being able to rival nukes which...really doesn't say much except to assume the standard nukes countries can launch at a given notice or whatever.

As Zero pointed out, the Bey thing probably doesn't work and it can mean either overtime or doing what Schreiber did by slamming down hard on Berlin to create that nuke-like explosion.

Cain's statements would be like Herc's so they would get possibly 7-B or whatever since it's similar to what their attacks are described as.

As for anyone scaling to him? I know Kai, when he was the latest Cain, had a narration statement of smashing mountains then he went on to fight Beatrice, who traded blows with him until both killed each other. Beatrice also fought Wilhelm before that who can also keep up with her in combat so he may scale, although lower as Bey outright states Cain as among those who can best him in power/strength.

I guess everyone else would be at least 7-C besides those two. I would add Trifa to MAYBE scale but this is purely off of Masada's Pantheon power ladder where he had Trifa be in the same rank/tier as Bey and Beatrice. He DOES have the same amount of souls as Wilhelm as he states in one of the routes but he points out that his souls are lower in quality to Bey's and given I think he didn't even do much damage to Cain in Marie's route nor did he not stomp Kei or Kasumi Route Ren (where he had only Yetzirah), it might be best to peg him down with the rest.

That's my thought on this whole thread.

 

[Cloozuma]

Not really knowledgable about Shinza Banshou, but I think I'll have to agree.
I'll start playing Dies Irae dw

 

[Infera28]

Those who had the power of nukes and could vaporize cities were Reinhard and the three commanders, and that was clearly in one attack

They had enough power to vaporize the whole town. Or maybe they could vaporize only one town precisely because they still hadn't reached their peak

The ***** have enough firepower to blow a country-shaped hole in the map

It was said that vaporizing one city is not even their full power and they have enough firepower to turn the city into a hole on the map. So the method used here is clearly destruction in one hit. Because firepower and blowing a hole are mentioned and the last time I checked, you didn't need to reach your full strength to eventually destroy more than one city. However, only commanders and Reinhard have such power

We have such feats in relation to other apostles

It has been said that none of the world's conventional weapons affect them and nukes are ineffective

It was also said that Rea's holy relic was the whole city and she was one of the weakest characters in the series. Before you say she was wall level, no character weaker than the Apostles ever damaged her so there isn't any anti feat

We also have this feat for Wilhelm

Keishirou Kyougetsu's blow can even perforate through mountain ranges and each and every single blow has the power to split the clouds, tore through seas and can break/cut off even mountains and Sukuna was inflicted by the violence that surpassed even natural phenomena, more powerful than thyphoons that can destroy whole captilas (We should calculate this feat)

It worth mentioning that Cain is in fact the strongest LDO physically by good amount so characters like Rusalka and Kei probably doesn't scale to him btw.

The strongest does not mean tens or hundereds of times stronger. Ren defeated and killed him in two different routes. Beatrice also killed Tubal Cain and Wilhelm kept up with Beatrice

And the strongest could be because he had combined several different creation figments and had several holy relics. Not that it has the most power and nobody in strength scales to him

 

[Planck69]

Wouldn't vaporizing a town be somewhere in Tier 6 even? IIRC Vaporizing single skyscraper is in the Low 7-C range.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Wouldn't vaporizing a town be somewhere in Tier 6 even? IIRC Vaporizing single skyscraper is in the Low 7-C range.

depends on the size of the town

 

[Infera28]

For commanders:

Wolfgang reduced Berlin to a charred wasteland and explosion was far beyond the level of any weapon that could have possibly been employed in urban warfare

Eleanore's attack was akin to a pulse of concentrated energy from a nuclear blast

They had enough power to vaporize the whole town. Or maybe they could vaporize only one town precisely because they still hadn't reached their peak (We should calculate this feat)

They had powers to rival nuclear weapons

They have enough firepower to blow a country-shaped hole in the map

Eleonore's weapon is potent enough to devastate entire cities

Other apostles:

Tubal Cain can shatter and split mountain apart

Keishirou Kyougetsu's blow can even perforate through mountain ranges and each and every single blow has the power to split the clouds, tore through seas and can break/cut off even mountains and Sukuna was inflicted by the violence that surpassed even natural phenomena, more powerful than thyphoons that can destroy whole captilas (We should calculate this feat)

It was said that Rea's holy relic was the whole city and she was one of the weakest characters in the series

It has been said that none of the world's conventional weapons affect them and nukes are ineffective

Scaling to Tubal Cain:

Wilhelm and Beatrice had equal strength, and Beatrice and Tubal Cain were killed in battle against each other

And as you know, Ren managed to defeat Tubal Cain twice and kill him and that same Ren could hardly defeat Rusalka and Kei. Also Kei had a full fight against Wilhelm and eventually killed him

So I think we should scale everyone exclusing Lisa and Spinne to Tubal Cain. Tubal is stronger than them, but not tens or hundreds of times stronger and the strongest could be because he had combined several different creation figments and had several holy relics. Not that it has the most power and nobody in strength scales to him

 

[ZERO7772]

Wouldn't vaporizing a town be somewhere in Tier 6 even? IIRC Vaporizing single skyscraper is in the Low 7-C range.

Depends on the size of the town. Although this doesn't mean much cuz this thread was mainly made to downgrade the normal LDO members, not the commanded. All above quotes are directed toward Reinhard and the commanders not lower ranked members

Normal LDO are consistently compared to nukes and said nothing short of nukes would take them out

 

[ZERO7772]

And as you know, Ren managed to defeat Tubal Cain twice and kill him and that same Ren could hardly defeat Rusalka and Kei. Also Kei had a full fight against Wilhelm and eventually killed him

So I think we should scale everyone exclusing Lisa and Spinne to Tubal Cain. Tubal is stronger than them, but not tens or hundreds of times stronger and the strongest could be because he had combined several different creation figments and had several holy relics. Not that it has the most power and nobody in strength scales to him

Lol no. Kei and Rusalka fought Yetzirah Ren, the one who fought and killed fp Cain in Kei route was Beriah Ren and Cain was still overpowering him physically until Ren blitzed and decapitated him with his holy relic that ignores, and even then Cain wasn't actually making full of his power.

That being said, I am not against possibly scaling them to Bey.

 

[Infera28]

Lol no. Kei and Rusalka fought Yetzirah Ren, the one who fought and killed fp Cain in Kei route was Beriah Ren and Cain was still overpowering him physically until Ren blitzed and decapitated him with his holy relic that ignores, and even then Cain wasn't actually making full of his power.

That being said, I am not against possibly scaling them to Bey.

Having an inactivated briah doesn't increase your power and Ren killed Cain in Kasumi Route without using any briah, blitz or durability negation. He only subconsciously activated briah for a moment to stop the fall and after exchanging many blows, Ren cut off Cain's head, then they exchanged several blows again, and Ren broke his weapon and killed him. That's enough to scale Ren to Cain. Because in Dies Irae the source of everything is souls, both attack potency and durability and their durability even scales higher than AP. Because AP = few souls. Durability = all souls. So Ren had enough AP for going beyond Cain's AP and destroying his defense

Cain also blocked his attacks several times with his weapon and the attacks did not pass through Cain's defense. Ren's holy relic only ignores the defense when Ren hits you in the neck

and right after that fight, Ren fought Kei and they were relative and even when using Yatzirah, Ren and Rusalka had equal power

And in Kei Route, Ren only used briah to stop the poison in his body, not to increase his speed, and again, not only did he hold Cain's attack with his bare hands, but in the end he defeated him. In fact, Cain had advantage and still lost

And nowhere was it said that Cain was not using all his power and also a holding back human Cain (not even stronger Zombie Cain) was able to shatter the mountains. Unless you want to say Ren, Kei and Rusalka are even weaker than a holding back human Cain. Also, Cain destroys mountains with just a simple blow and does not put much pressure on himself

Also prove that Cain is the strongest in terms of power and dozens times stronger than everyone. Because nowhere was it stated and the strongest could be because he had combined several different creation figments and had several holy relics so you had to fight against all the different abilities and weapons

 

[QuasiYuri]

Other apostles:

Tubal Cain can shatter and split mountain apart

Yup, should still be used.

Keishirou Kyougetsu's blow can even perforate through mountain ranges and each and every single blow has the power to split the clouds, tore through seas and can break/cut off even mountains and Sukuna was inflicted by the violence that surpassed even natural phenomena, more powerful than thyphoons that can destroy whole captilas (We should calculate this feat)

Looking at the screen, is it from somewhere on VSB? There's K3 revisions prepared with these scans among others already, which is part of why I didn't include K3 stuff.

It was said that Rea's holy relic was the whole city and she was one of the weakest characters in the series

It's more related to Sonnenkind stuff than her wielding the raw power of the city tho. Don't think the Swastika should be treated as an AP thing.

It has been said that none of the world's conventional weapons affect them and nukes are ineffective

Conventional weapons don't include nukes, but the second scan would support things yup. Not sure if Tsar Bomba was a thing at the time of the novel tho, since I don't remember Song of the Witch well.

What's your tier proposition too?

 

[ZERO7772]

Having briah doesn't increase your power

Actually it does

and Ren killed Cain in Kasumi Route without using any briah, blitz or durability negation.

Cain's body was literally falling apart at that point, Ren doesn't compare to peak Cain in the least

And nowhere was it said that Cain was not using all his power and also a holding back human Cain (not even stronger Zombie Cain) was able to shatter the mountains. Unless you want to say Ren, Kei and Rusalka are even weaker than a holding back human Cain. Also, Cain destroys mountains with just a simple blow and does not put much pressure on himself

Read this:

Cain also blocked his attacks several times with his weapon and the attacks did not pass through Cain's defense. Ren's holy relic only ignores the defense when Ren hits you in the neck

Which is what I am saying

And in Kei Route, Ren only used briah to stop the poison in his body, not to increase his speed, and again, not only did he hold Cain's attack with his bare hands, but in the end he defeated him. In fact, Cain had advantage and still lost

Not sure what you are talking about and either way it proves nothing, Ren defeating Cain is a feat for the former not for lower ranked LDO members

Also prove that Cain is the strongest in terms of power and dozens times stronger than everyone. Because nowhere was it stated and the strongest could be because he had combined several different creation figments and had several holy relics so you had to fight against all the different abilities and weapons

It changes nothing, Bey stated that both Machina and Cain would overpower in term of physicals power and Cain has several Creation Fragments n top of that. How is that helping your point exactly?

That being said again, I don't have a problem with scaling the LDO to the suggested tear since Kei could harm Bey and he's one of the strongest LDOs so they would scale, just to a lower degree. I just disagree with some of your statements

 

[ZERO7772]

Conventional weapons don't include nukes, but the second scan would support things yup. Not sure if Tsar Bomba was a thing at the time of the novel tho, since I don't remember Song of the Witch well.

What should we do if one scan disagree with rest of what we have? I mean we have bunch of scans saying they rival nukes and one nothing can them out short of a nuke but then one claim comes and says the opposite.

Also Tsab bomb was in 1961 iirc

 

[Infera28]

Yup, should still be used.

Looking at the screen, is it from somewhere on VSB? There's K3 revisions prepared with these scans among others already, which is part of why I didn't include K3 stuff.

It's more related to Sonnenkind stuff than her wielding the raw power of the city tho. Don't think the Swastika should be treated as an AP thing.

Conventional weapons don't include nukes, but the second scan would support things yup. Not sure if Tsar Bomba was a thing at the time of the novel tho, since I don't remember Song of the Witch well.

What's your tier proposition too?

In fact, I think commanders should stay 7-A and we have to remove the 7-A tiers from the rest

And we should scale everyone exclusing Lisa and Spinne to Tubal Cain

If splitting and shattering mountains is Fragmentation, then we should scale everyone to low 7-B unless you think that because nuclear weapons have no effect or Rea thing then they are 7-B

If splitting and shattering mountains is Violent Fragmentation, then we should scale everyone to 7-B

It would be great if we could ask one of the members of the calculation team

This is also the Japanese text in which it was said that Cain could destroy mountains so someone should translate this too

カインは全身を稲妻と化し、雷の速度で動き、山をも砕く膂力の持ち主だと描かれている。

You also can add likely/possibly higher or far higher because it is possibly that their power is still be able to destroy cities and mountains or even hurt Interview with Kaziklu Bey commanders. Because Wilhelm fought them for three full days and survived. But we don't know

 

[ZERO7772]

The commanders scaling seems a bit weird to me since it seems to take notes from KKK and IwKB "I really need to read this one already btw"

 

[QuasiYuri]

In fact, I think commanders should stay 7-A and we have to remove the 7-A tiers from the rest

And we should scale everyone exclusing Lisa and Spinne to Tubal Cain

If splitting and shattering mountains is Fragmentation, then we should scale everyone to low 7-B unless you think that because nuclear weapons have no effect or Rea thing then they are 7-B

If splitting and shattering mountains is Violent Fragmentation, then we should scale everyone to 7-B

It would be great if we could ask one of the members of the calculation team

This is also the Japanese text in which it was said that Cain could destroy mountains so someone should translate this too

カインは全身を稲妻と化し、雷の速度で動き、山をも砕く膂力の持ち主だと描かれている。

You also can add likely/possibly higher or far higher because it is possibly that their power is still be able to destroy cities and mountains or even hurt Interview with Kaziklu Bey commanders. Because Wilhelm fought them for three full days and survived. But we don't know

The thread isn't removing anything from Commanders yeah. Wolfgang has his own 7-A feat.

Looks fine to me.

Given how it is similar to Herc's calc, it would be Low 7-B. An at least or "possibly 7-B" would work too.

砕く means to break/smash/crush/thiskindofstuff; so I don't think it would give more info.

 

[Infera28]

Actually it does

Refresh page, i have updated my post. I said that having a inactive briah does not increase your power. The video you sent speaks about the activated Briah

Cain's body was literally falling apart at that point, Ren doesn't compare to peak Cain in the least

Read this:

It was said that a far weaker human Cain before even merging with Beatrice and other souls who also was holding back and did not want to kill his opponent could shatter mountains. Are you saying that Zombie Cain, Ren, Ki, Wilhelm and Rusalka are even weaker than that? Destroying the very power source of a weakened zombie Cain and exchanging many blows with him is weaker than one of the blows of supressed human Cain?

And the source of power in DI is the souls, so as long as Cain had the souls he had all his power, the body does not matter. It was even shown in the fight that Ren beheaded Cain and Cain was still alive and moving it was only when Ren destroyed the source of Cain's souls that Cain was destroyed

Which is what I am saying

No, you said that Ren killed Cain by ignoring Cain's defense, which was wrong and after cutting off Cain's head, several blows were exchanged until he destroyed the source of Cain's souls and Cain finally destroyed. No defense ever was ignored. Ren only used sheer power

Not sure what you are talking about and either way it proves nothing, Ren defeating Cain is a feat for the former not for lower ranked LDO members

Did you know that Rusalka was fighting the same Brian Ren?

And if Yetzirah Rusalka and Kei were on the same level as Yetzirah Ren and the power of their souls was the same, then why should Ren's AP be far more powerful than them on the Briah stage?

It changes nothing, Bey stated that both Machina and Cain would overpower in term of physicals power and Cain has several Creation Fragments n top of that. How is that helping your point exactly?

What I'm saying is that Cain was not the strongest because of his pure power, and you have to consider a lot of his abilities, like the speed of Beatrice too

Because Wilhelm and Beatrice were on the same level as Cain in AP. So logically Cain was not the strongest just because of pure power

 

[ZERO7772]

Would first need to nuke 3-A of Sukuna and Ootake, their proof is faking Madara atwiki profile

This can't be real btw

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, and the current proof isn't even related.
Although I intend to truly remove it later than the revisions I have prepared for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your dedication to accuracy Yuri. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Infera28]

If you want to know, I think it was Masada's tweet that upgraded the Tenmas to 3-A




This is translation

1. Spinne.
2. Lisa, Sakuya.
3. Kei, Rusalka, Know, Ryuusui
4. Wilhelm, Beatrice, Trifa, the Eastern Expedition
5. Machina, Eleonore, Schreiber, Lot, Ryuumei.
6. Methuselah, the Yatsukahagi, the Fallen Angels, the Seven Dark Lords of Evil.
7. Hegemony Gods/Transcendence Gods.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If you want to know, I think it was Masada's tweet that upgraded the Tenmas to 3-A




This is translation

1. Spinne.
2. Lisa, Sakuya.
3. Kei, Rusalka, Know, Ryuusui
4. Wilhelm, Beatrice, Trifa, the Eastern Expedition
5. Machina, Eleonore, Schreiber, Lot, Ryuumei.
6. Methuselah, the Yatsukahagi, the Fallen Angels, the Seven Dark Lords of Evil.
7. Hegemony Gods/Transcendence Gods.

That's not based on this tweet. It's supposed to be on a live website you need to pay for which name I can't remember.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Thank you for your dedication to accuracy Yuri. I greatly appeciate it.

Thanks, although I'm not the only guy working on Shinza, and the threads I mention as "later than the one I prepared" are not really my direct work.

 

[Infera28]

That's not based on this tweet. It's supposed to be on a live website you need to pay for which name I can't remember.

Masada's Nico stream?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/masadaverse-discussion-thread-22.54877/post-1821957

 

[QuasiYuri]

Masada's Nico stream?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/masadaverse-discussion-thread-22.54877/post-1821957

Light Cafe Nico stuff yeah; just checked the name.

Also this statement of Yakou being equal to Reinhard was corrected in the VFB, where he explained that what he actually meant isn't that they are equal but that they both got "blessings" from the Throne God.

Edit: Quote

Q: 初期夜行が黄金と同じくらいの強さって公開録音で言ってましたがとてもそうは思えないのですが……

A: ああ、言い方が悪かったですね。夜行というキャラの格がラインハルト級だということです。その世界における神の加護を一身に受けているという意味で、些細な違いはあってもほぼ同種の存在。

You said in a public recording that early-game Yakou is as strong as the Gold, but I don't think that's the case...

Ah, I said it poorly. What I meant is that the character rank of Yakou is Reinhard Class, in the sense that they received the blessing (加護) of God in the World, so they share the same existence if with slight differences.