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Another Shinza Bansho revision: LDO tier 7 slight downgrade

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Yeah, the Yakou=Reinhard thing was clarified by Masada himself so them being in the same "class" is referring to abilities rather than pure strength. There are times where Masada does make statements of how strong his characters are in relation to each other like his Pantheon power ladder or this one 2013 Dengeki Interview he had where, even if they're from different eras, he'll still make a point when asked how strong a character is to another.

The Nico Stream thing is something in Japanese iirc and since I doubt neither any of us here have Yen currency to pay it, well...we can't use that. Even if you did, there's a whole bunch of those videos you have to sift through and having to watch and listen in on it so it ain't worth the time to find something to just scale these guys.
 
@ZERO7772 Edit: Look at Infera's post of Masada's tweet. That's what I meant.

The full context was that he couldn't speak of what Panteon's rarity ranks are like but he instead placed the characters based on strength/power. As you can see, it goes from 1 to 7, 1 the weakest and 7 the strongest.

That's what I meant by "power ladder".
 
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QuasiYuri said:
Thanks, although I'm not the only guy working on Shinza, and the threads I mention as "later than the one I prepared" are not really my direct work.
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Okay. Big thanks to the others as well then.
 
Conventional weapons don't include nukes, but the second scan would support things yup. Not sure if Tsar Bomba was a thing at the time of the novel tho, since I don't remember Song of the Witch well.
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Song to the Witch takes place during the Cuban Missile Crisis so it took place during Kennedy's presidency.

By around that point, the Tsar bomba had to have been tested just like our IRL history so yes it was a thing at the time.
 
Qliphoth_Bacikal said:
Song to the Witch takes place during the Cuban Missile Crisis so it took place during Kennedy's presidency.

By around that point, the Tsar bomba had to have been tested just like our IRL history so yes it was a thing at the time.
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Thanks for the precision.
I suck at remembering historical events.
 
Either way, Tubal Cain's "shattering mountains" statement should only be Low 7-B for our purposes, IMO. If we can reasonably assume that "nukes are ineffective against the LDO" includes the likes of the Tsar Bomba, though, then it doesn't matter as he would be 7-B regardless.
 
I heard, there is a statement in the Verfaulender Segen side story that weapons do not work on apostles. I will replay it soon and say if it was all weapons or only conventional weapons again
 
The term is used a awful lot yeah.
Although it does give consistence.

Should we go with "Low 7-B, likely higher/7-B" or something like that?
 
Scaling stuff aside for now

Well its bunch of "they rival nukes statements" vs one "nukes are ineffective "

Low 7-B possibly higher/7B
Is indeed what I think is right
 
Is that solution fine with the rest of you?
 
So should "Low 7-B, possibly/likely 7-B" be applied now then?
 
Conventional weaponries are usually stated more than nukes whenever the Apostles durability is brought up, either by characters, narration, etc. Whatever the material work in question may be, like Kei here stating about how guns and other anti-personal weapons can only kill a single person at best and against the likes of the LDO, where even the normal members have hundreds to thousands of souls inside of them, it's practically useless.

There's also the point of Kei stating how Bey and Malleus were unhurt while in the middle of a bombing raid and that you "might have to bring in nukes" if you want to kill them properly.

Granted being she was the latest member, she hasn't lived long enough to really know if that would even work or not but the point still stands that even hitting them with something like a bombing raid won't do jack.

The talk Yusa has with Fuji was definitely talking about the Commanders and Reinhard, yeah. Also, it's Yusa. Not Yosa.

regarding the K3 feats thing, I can go gather them later once I finish up K3 but I know that most of them tend to be Tier 7 for most parties. At least for Keishirou and the Tenma's I'm aware of, but the others may have something to that degree too, which may even make it consistent with Masada rating the main EE fighters (Habaki, Keishirou, Soujirou, Shiori) in the same rank as Bey, Beatrice, and Trifa.
 
Qliphoth_Bacikal said:
Granted being she was the latest member, she hasn't lived long enough to really know if that would even work or not but the point still stands that even hitting them with something like a bombing raid won't do jack.
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I mean if you gonna do a character knowledge bias, then toubal cain statement will also be less credible cuz it came from Ren iirc, who barely saw anything from LDO and more than likely doesn't know the exact power needed to shatter a mountain.

We just take what characters says at face value unless it's contradicted by other testament or narrative itself.
 
I know. I was just adding that bombing raids don't work on them either. And point on the Ren part, since...well that one came out of nowhere too. At least one of the side-stories of DI has that exact moment but it was a narration statement rather than a character stating.
 
In any case, they being able to rival nukes would be fine with me on a Low 7-B, possibly 7-B.

I also take that Cain's mountain busting statements apply, or just use the statements of him being the strongest normal member will be used instead?
 
Wasn't disregarding Ren's statement really, just that I am against taking bias and trying to doubt the know knowledge of some of the characters, cuz the thing kinda breaks apart if you do that.
 
Shattering mountain was stated by narrator tho not characters

But yeah statements are the author's attempt to give us information through characters

However, Kei said short of "perhaps" a nuclear missile could take them out

so she was not sure
 
It would be great if someone had Japanese pictures where they talked about conventional weapons

Or if someone had the Japanese version of Kei and Yusa statements

Anyway, I think the end of this thread has come and it is better to apply the changes sooner
 
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@Infera28 the JP version had Kei say something different on the "nukes" part.

「参考までに言っておくとね、ベイやマレウスは大空襲の中でも無傷だったらしいわよ。真っ当な手段で斃そうとするなら、核兵器くらい持ってこないと駄目かもしれない」

"For reference, I've heard Bey and Malleus were unharmed in the middle of a bombing raid. If you want to kill them properly, you might need to bring in nukes"

核兵器 here is nukes, or nuclear weapons.

I chose the Japanese version here cuz the English version makes it seems like she's sure nukes are what you would need to take them out while the original seems like she has the thought that one might have to bring them in.

The thing I said before on conventional weapons is the same, with Kei again here.

「銃を始めとする対人武器は、最大効率で使用しても一撃一殺が限度でしょう。そんな物じゃあ、何百何千も魂を纏めている私たちには傷一つ負わせられない。針で城壁を壊せないのと同じように」

"Guns and other anti-personal weapons, even if used at their highest effciency, can only kill a single person at a time. Those kinds of things can't hurt us, who have hundreds and thousands of souls inside us, just like how you can't break down a castle's walls with a needle."

But I agree, the conventional weapons thing gets thrown around a lot in DI.
 
Nope, don't have it on me. Admittedly I only can go off on playlists of the games. DI does have them in JP, but the only ones I found are on Marie's Route and IkaBey, plus some very few clips of Rea's Route but those don't have anything on Shirou and Ren's conversation about the above.
 
Actually I did found a playlist of DI that has more of the routes than Marie's just now.

Thing is it only has all but Rea's so the thing above that takes place in that route isn't up to that point yet, although the uploader of said playlist is still going over it and updating...at what point they'll reach there, idk. DI is one of those long-ass VN's to go through after all.
 
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That'll be worth to check over with them if they have it.

Otherwise, anything we don't have, whether by playlists or actually having the games, you're just gonna have to use your own judgement in using them or not like the nuke talk and whatnot of Shirou and Ren.
 
Hmm, even without this specific scene (which is about commanders anyway), it seems that we at least have enough for a good "Low 7-B possibly higher" (or 7-B).
 
You can probably apply what has been agreed, yes.
 
I'll turn the japanese scans into Imgur scans with their translation before applying anything yet.
But yeah I should be able to do it between 1 and 3 days at worst.
 
Is there any scans worth getting from here besides the beginning of story one like Kei's?

The one about "all weapons in the world thing" is from Kasumi Route during Shirou's bout with Bey, and we also have Cain's statement of mountain busting from Kei Route.

Those are off the top of my head on the things you might need?
 
Can't think of any more that the one you said for now too.
Although some can still be let in their english form if it's the same as the japanese anyway.
 
I think the mountain one of Ren's statement can stay in English now that I think about it. Think that one is fine as it is.

DK of the rest but I can possibly check later on those, whichever comes to mind. Just note that we only have Kasumi, Kei, and Marie's so whatever scans we got that's from there we can check. Others from Rea's we cannot unless someone comes by who can provide them, assuming any of it is different from what the local version may or may have not changed.
 
Well, I think what we have now can make a good basis yeah. With nukes and mountain statements.

Intend on doing a bigger scan search thingy and CRT after my DI full-re-reread and most of the current revision either way.
 
I got the jap scan for Shirou (at least the end of the scene), and it is a bit unsure in comparison to the eng, with a they might/,in the worst case.
Will post later.
 
Well, it seems that I can't think of super good justifications, but here's what I made to give an idea of the news ones:

Tubal Cain: At least Town level, possibly City level+ (Was stated to be the strongest of all the normal members of the L.D.O., even stated by Wilhelm himself to be superior to him, with only its two leaders and three Commanders being their superior. Stated to be able to split and shatter mountains), can bypass durability by attacking their opponent's soul or with their Ber'iahs | Hyperverse level (Is empowered to the same level of existence as a Hadō God)

Whilhelm: At least Town level, possibly City level+ (Is one of the strongest of the normal members of the L.D.O., with only the likes of Tubal Cain and the Three Commanders being his superior. LDO members are unaffected by any weapons besides nukes). Varies with Der Rosenkavalier Schwarzwald (His Ber'iah allows him to become stronger by absorbing the life-force of all those within it. This allowed him to close the gap in both power and speed to Wolfgang Schreiber until he was eventually overwhelmed by Wolfgang's Ber'iah constantly empowering himself, causing Wilhelm to lose the battle of attrition between them), can bypass durability by attacking his opponent's soul

Rot Spinne: At least Town level, possibly City level+ (Spinne is a Die Ewigkeit user, and users of the magic grow stronger with the souls they absorb, possess a fundamental strength that is completely different from a human's, and are stated to be unaffected by any weapons besides nukes)

Wouldn't mind a bit of help here.
 
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