Another Shinza Bansho revision: LDO tier 7 slight downgrade

[ZERO7772]

Something about spinne having the same tier as top tier LDOs strike me the wrong way. The ones who were stated to be untouched by air raids and needing a nuke to be taken out were Bey and Rusalka.

Like, I didn't read DI in forever but wasn't spinne an utter fodder compared to everyone else even Lisa?

Also the justification you posted for Cain is the one used for the low 7-B tier not City Level+.
if you gonna go with the mountains statement then you should use Low 7-B instead

 

[QuasiYuri]

Something about spinne having the same tier as top tier LDOs strike me the wrong way. The ones who were stated to be untouched by air raids and needing a nuke to be taken out were Bey and Rusalka.

Like, I didn't read DI in forever but wasn't spinne an utter fodder compared to everyone else even Lisa?

Also the justification you posted for Cain is the one used for the low 7-B tier not City Level+ so it's pretty wrong this way.

He is the lowest yeah. Although Rusalka isn't top tier either. I don't mind him scaling to something else, but that would be to others to judge.

The City+ part would come from the scaling to the rest part of his justification.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

By Masada's own statement through Pantheon ranks, yes he's the lowest. He's so low that even Lisa, and Sakuya, are ranked stronger than him (Spinne a 1, Lisa and Sakuya a 2).

Most of the normal LDO members, by that Pantheon twitter link list linked by Infera above, are like 3 to 4. Kei and Rusalka are the 3, while Bey, Valkyrie (Beatrice) and Trifa are a 4 with Cain most likely above them in the 4 range. Again, note that Masada's listing is based on strength/power. He doesn't specify anything like on abilities or whatever else that list would change up a lot of those character placements.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It wouldn't include abilities yeah, since Sakuya would be way higher through this.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Trust me, Masada's Pantheon ranking would change up a lot had he even included that.

Like Know being on the same tier as Kei and Rusalka, and Ryuusui, yet ability wise he has nothing that would help him against any of those three, let alone Lisa and even Spinne. Machina, through his Beri'ah, can wipe out Methuselah had he hit him so he'd be well into 6 through that.

Or that the Tenma's, Angels/Dust Angels, Ryuumei, and whoever would be like a 7 because of Taikyoku, Shura Mandala, and such.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Although wouldn't Spinne be closer to tier 9/8 then?

Was also quite surprised to see that Yakou and Niko/Teirei weren't included in it tho ( don't think they are included in EE "main forces").

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Going off pure feats, yeah?

Well tbf, Twitter has a limit to how much text you can put so you can chalk it up to him just not having enough to add them. Then again, Reinhard isn't listed on there and so is Ren in their pre-Godforms. IDK about N&T, but I assume those guys (Yakou, Rein, Ren) are just among those of the Gudou and Hadou Gods which makes sense to not add them again for their pre-Godhood forms.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, since his scaling is being weaker than everyone.

Got a point here. It would have been much better if he was able to explain that on a supplementary material Pantheon VFB clarifying this
Although it's not like they are hard to scale either way.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

They're not hard to tier if you just look at the Pantheon ranks by in-series alone.

DI's easier to look at with just those characters alone.

K3 is similar.

PL's not a lot since not many notable characters come to mind there.

When you put it with everyone, it becomes a bit of a mess to even use the whole thing for everyone...which makes the scaling go even more bonkers since if we take Masada's word, you literally have a cyborg haxless guy in the same tier as people who can literally soul hax anyone that don't have a particular defense against them. Even if he did (clearly not, obviously), he still wouldn't be able to kill them because of their soul armor and ability to instantly regen their form using the hundreds and thousands of souls they have in them.

 

[QuasiYuri]

There's also the fact that the dudes in each part aren't necessarily equal but more of "the same caliber" yeah.

 

[ZERO7772]

Spinne is weaker than Sakuya even going by ranks "unless you say Sakuya can punch as hard as a nuke"

Anyway my final say on this is Spinne should be scaled to his own feat alone. He's literally his own tier is term of being the weakest

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, guess he should. Same for Riza, who's the same "rank" as Sakuya.

Any idea for more justifications too?

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Seems to be the case for most LDO members (although I find the proposed justifications a bit lacking or something) but we need to rescale Rot Spinne, and likely Riza; since they are considered way below the rest.

 

[Infera28]

I think 9-A Spinne and Lisa makes sense. Because they are cleary beyond human Wilhelm and Schreiber 9-A feat

Spinne also was capable of slicing through steel and transforming benches and street lamps into thin slices. He also scales beyond Assiah Wilhelm who pierced a bench, iron fence , and even part of pavement and taking the brunt of his blow, the tree splintered into several pieces with a crunch

 

[QuasiYuri]

Seems good yeah. I think my reread is nearing Spinne fight, so I may be able to get more scans for him.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Hmm thinking about it, Zero and Yuri’s comment did make me remember why Spinne and Riza are at where they are now of being on the same tier as their fellow peers.

From what I remember back when I initially tried to do the cleanup of Shinza, Warren figured that because Ewigkeit increases a lot of things for you (stats, senses, lifeforce, etc.), it wouldn’t make sense for them to be strong durability wise yet not be just as strong.

That and/or something about how much of a difference it puts for Spinne and Riza to that of their fellow peers. At least that’s how I remember it.

 

[ZERO7772]

We are not keeping their dura tho? The air raids were mentioned in regard to Bey and Rusalka. Anyway they were 9-A before everyone began to high ball everything in Shinza.

Spinne and Lisa doesn't scale to anyone.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I do think that they should durability and AP should be the same tier, but as pointed out by Zero, they don't scale to what would be used for the others.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Yeah.

I was perhaps thinking that maybe the reason the nukes thing was there for everyone was because of that one statement in Song to Witch that referred to the members who were still around at the time in the world.

I guess if we are going by their actual feats, then yeah Spinne and Lisa should only scale to what they actually have endured.

I don’t think Spinne really took much hits but I know he wasn’t phased for long when Assiah Ren headbutted him, and durability wise he should at least have the thing where “anti personnel weapons can’t harm him” thing as well. AP should be as Yuri pointed.

For Lisa, I can’t really think up of what she actually did AP since I never recall her being in a fight with just herself. For durability, I know she tanked being burned alive and most likely should have the same dura thing that all LDO members have against anti personal weapons. But I know she dies easily from Eleonore’s flames to even Trifa putting a hole through her chest. I think even Kei would have killed her in Marie’s route too when discussing who should die to open a Swastika for the ritual.

 

[ZERO7772]

Is this thread dead or smth? OP should probably applies the changes that we approved of and move on.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably best, yes.

You should list any pages that you need unlocked here, so I can handle that.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I was waiting to see if I found anything on my reread that could solidicate Spinne and Riza ones, but I forgot that life was full of things.

Anyway, every profiles are already unlocked, so I'll do the changes now.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Everything's done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

Should I lock all of the tier 1 Shinza profile pages now?

Also, is there anything left to do in this discussion thread, or should it be closed?

 

[Infera28]

I can send scans for Assiah Wilhelm and Spinne feats

 

[Infera28]

Assiah Wilhelm's feats

Spinne's feats

 

[QuasiYuri]

Assiah Wilhelm's feats

Spinne's feats

Gonna add Spinne feats to his profile, to support stuff.
I think everything will be done after this.

Next revision will affect p much all tier 1, so not sure about locking them.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Added.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will wait with locking the pages then.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Thank you.
This thread can either be closed now or after I put the link for the next one tho.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems best to wait for your link to the next one.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Here it is.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will close this thread then.