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Alien X Downgrade Rebuttal (Updating Alien X to 2B or 2A again)
- Thread starter ShinyFire
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It isn't. Its based off head canon using evidence that isn't actually evidence. The fusion aliens from the OG series were created by a MALFUNCTION in the original omnitrix when Ben messed with its casing, using an Omnitrix that was not designed to create fusion aliens. Those fusions were abominated glitches.
The biomnitrix is a completely different thing as Ben 10K designed it specifically with the function to make proper fusion aliens. Equating properly made fusions to ones made by glitches is completely ridiculous.
No offense for you specifically, but this has been addressed on dozens of threads here already and are given the same answer every single freaking time. Its a false equivalence and head canon.
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Kukui makes sense as usual
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And all of your claims were already adressed too many times thanks
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They weren't, so, kindly provide those "claims" or stand down.
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I don't need to it literally happens in every single thread you try to bring the Fusion thing so you should already know what are those claims unless you lost your memories or you are being ignorant really no offense
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Excuse me but isn't it explicitly stated by the authors that fusions are weaker. Man even linked it.
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Why are we discussing fusions if Atomic X isn't even scaled to Alien X?
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Because it doesnt happen in every thread. I've yet to see any explicit canon evidence of fusions being "weaker" other than made up head canon, which is the one that these threads continuously repeat themselves on.
You mean a one-off social media comment, which for like 50 threads, has been said time and time again to not count as any evidence, of any kind, here? No.
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Because its evidence that the OP tried using to revive the upgrade and, regardless of what happens, that evidence is still wrong.
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Fair enough.
Also, what's the supposed evidence for 2-A? I don't see it in the OP but I see 2-A in the title.
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@ProfessorKukui4Life you wanna know something funny? People are so quick to say Atomic X isn’t as strong as Alien X because half the DNA. Yet people love to spam the “FRACTION OF HIS DNA PIERCING A 5D BARRIER!!” Nonsense. It’s blatant double standards and no surprise.
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Show me a single reason for why Atomic x scales despite of him getting his ass being kicked by a fodder Chronosapien?
And why shouldn't it be used while it's clearly supported by the show?
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I don’t think fodder is the word you want to use here. That would imply that he’s weaker than even Ben’s regular aliens. Remember Atomix by himself is high 5-A.
Atomic X > Atomix > Waybig > Kevin 11k > Ben 10k’s regular aliens. That’s a huge gap
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When it comes to ben 10 threads in general whenever Alien X is in the same light year of a CTR forum, nothing surprises me anymore.
And of course, the strawmannirg begins. I never once uttered the words "Atomic-X" in this thread. I said that the OPs point on fusion aliens generally being weaker than the sum of their parts in Ben 10 is utter head canon and was never a thing in the first place. A shitty social media comment done to get desperate fans spamming them with silly questions to shut up is not evidence.
Now, do I personally disagree with Atomic X being weaker? Yes sure. But he isn't what my replies to earlier was talking about specifically, so I'd like it if you didnt try to paint what I said earlier like I did.
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@ProfessorKukui4Life
Fusions don't inherently get weaker or stronger, it isn't really stated. It should be looked at case by case, pretty simple. Obviously as soon as a fusion fuses they don't automatically become weaker, I have no clue who even said that here, but whatever (Same for stronger, when Ben 10 fuses 2 aliens they don't automatically become stronger disregarding everything about them and only going based on their fusion). I don't really know why you brought this up, what is there a point you're trying to make, how does it affect the thread and what the guy who made this said? Are you trying to assert Atomic-X scales to Alien X due to Atomic-X being a fusion of Alien X? I just don't get it, can you please clear it up for me.
Fusions don't inherently get weaker or stronger, it isn't really stated. It should be looked at case by case, pretty simple. Obviously as soon as a fusion fuses they don't automatically become weaker, I have no clue who even said that here, but whatever (Same for stronger, when Ben 10 fuses 2 aliens they don't automatically become stronger disregarding everything about them and only going based on their fusion). I don't really know why you brought this up, what is there a point you're trying to make, how does it affect the thread and what the guy who made this said? Are you trying to assert Atomic-X scales to Alien X due to Atomic-X being a fusion of Alien X? I just don't get it, can you please clear it up for me.
DragonLord
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Just out of curiosity, why would Alien X get dragged down if Atomic X scales to him?
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It doesnt matter if its stated or not, because we're not a site where we pretend common sense doesnt exist until something says otherwise. The default standard is that any part added onto another part will make the sum of the 2 greater than the sums. This is literally saying it needs to be stated that 1 + 1 is greater than 2.
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He’d stay the current tier he is because Atomic X got bodied by the Chronosapien Time Bomb.
DragonLord
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I see, so basically just one added anti feat barring him from higher tiers?
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I don't know why you disregard everything I said, but can you prove this please. I asked you to clarify what you meant and how that would affect this thread in particular. Like I want a clear assertion from you, please that's all I want. If you wanna say Atomic X scales to Alien X or greater than Alien then just say that and don't beat around the bush please.
Why is our default assumption that a fusion is greater automatically? Why is your interpretation of a fusion in Ben 10 greater than let's just say mine or shifter? Why are you assuming that fusions in Ben 10 add the 2 aliens powers together? Are we now meant to disregard feats and automatically put the fusion of 2 aliens above the 2 aliens that are fused? Also, I'm not trying to shotgun you here, I just wanna know why and understand it. I would also request some substantiation of your claims within the show otherwise pretty much all of your claims can be dismissed via hitchens razor.
Finally it seems like your entire argument is personal incredulity, or appeal to common sense (I don't care what you call it or call it). So I'm requesting a sound and coherent argument on your side as well
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It effects the thread because the OP tried using the argument that fusion aliens are weaker than the individual aliens used to form the fusions so they could try using this as a supporting argument to re-upgrade Alien X.
Im saying the argument is wrong, regardless of Alien X, because fusions being weaker was never a thing in Ben 10 in the first place. It's head canon.
My comments here are not aimed specifically at Atomic X. Its against the general argument on fusion aliens.
Um, because thats how adding things work...? Again, does 1 + 1 need to be stated to be greater than 2? No it doesnt. The same principal goes here and its intectually dishonest to say otherwise.
Without something specifically proving that it would be inferior, there is absolutely no reason to assume it wouldn't be superior under normal circumstances.
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If I remember correctly fusions of aliens in ben 10 make them weaker and hinders there powers has seen in the original ben 10. When he messed up his watch and his aliens got fused his aliens were weaker.
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It was shown in the OG Ben 10 that fusion aliens are indeed weaker in some ways.
Been with Four Arms fused with Stink Fly is stronger than Stink Fly but weaker than Four Arms, and can't fly as well as Stink Fly could.
Note: It's possible that the other Ben's watch is different, but I don't know if that is the case. I don't care where Alien X ends up being tiered (I prefer Low 2-C), but Atomic-X is literally never shown to be on par with Alien X. I don't get why we should assume same DNA must equal same strength.
How about we stick with the feats that are shown for the character, instead of assuming things. Atomic-X current rating is fine, since it makes use of the feats and scaling he shows in the series instead of making any assumptions.
Been with Four Arms fused with Stink Fly is stronger than Stink Fly but weaker than Four Arms, and can't fly as well as Stink Fly could.
Note: It's possible that the other Ben's watch is different, but I don't know if that is the case. I don't care where Alien X ends up being tiered (I prefer Low 2-C), but Atomic-X is literally never shown to be on par with Alien X. I don't get why we should assume same DNA must equal same strength.
How about we stick with the feats that are shown for the character, instead of assuming things. Atomic-X current rating is fine, since it makes use of the feats and scaling he shows in the series instead of making any assumptions.
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I agree the argument is wrong, they don't get inherently stronger or weaker. From what I'm getting from you is that no matter what fusions are always going to be stronger, right. (Also thank you for answer this question finally)
So are you aiming at Atomic X or not, if you are then say you are and stop beating around the bush, and if you aren't then nobody cares and it's irrelevant. Also is the second sentence a concession to you trying to assert that it applies to Atomic X, because in this sentence you say it generally applies in which that would include Atomic X so what are you getting at and why did you get mad at that other guy for "Strawmanning" if that's what you were getting at the whole time? So are you asserting it or not, I don't care, does this argument right now apply to Atomic X yes or no.
I don't care if that's how adding works, I know maths dude. I asked for 1. Substantiation within the verse of Ben 10, why would this logic automatically apply to Ben 10 and why should we disregard what is shown within the story to fit this interpretation 2. Why is this interpretation of fusions more valid than any other interpretations, and no I don't care if it's "Common sense" because that isn't an argument, all that is, is appealing to common sense and personal incredulity. Why would your interpretation of a fusion be more valid then mine, why is your interpretation the end all be all, like you're making it out to be? Why is this the default interpretation we MUST go by on this wiki, why can't there be a better interpretation that is less lazy and actually looks at feats and what's within the show? 3. Can you please provide evidence within Ben 10 that fusions add the power of 1 alien and another, please.
For the next sentence, that is just a massive appeal to ignorance, so can you please stop making baseless claims and assumptions because you gave substantiations to 0 of your claims.
Also how in the world am I being dishonest here and why is that even relevant at all?
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Thank you, this guy is just making baseless claims, and I bet he's gonna say "Well it was due to a malfunction so here is my rebuttal to that claim: Who in the world cares if it was due to a malfunction? It still is fusion right, they still work the same right. Exactly, unless you're trying to assert they do not work the same (If so just say that). If it works the same, why wouldn't this apply to the biomnitrix? It works the same right, they are both inverse fusions right. So what is the problem here? And even then you said that fusions in general make them weaker in Ben 10 which would include these fusions so you can't even deny it. This is a dead end, and I logically trapped you/I am currently doing it. @ProfessorKukui4Life
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Wasn't that because the Aliens weren't compatible? Such as Ripjaws and Heatwaves fusion was weaker due to the fact that one couldn't survive in the water and the other couldn't stand being on fire.
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It still shows that fusions CAN be weaker and not inherently stronger thus we should go by their own feats rather than just assuming their strength is stronger or weaker. That's the entire point. Also not all of them "weren't compatible" such as Diamond Matter (Diamond Head and Grey Matter fusion) which is fully compatible it's just its fusion is bad and makes Diamond Head weaker based on what is shown in the show.
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Which, again, was because these aliens were born from Malfunctions in the Omntrixes casing that Ben messed with. The original omnitrix wasn't designed to fuse aliens in the first place and could only do so via this glitched method.
Uh, Ben 10K, who is by far the most intelligent variant of Ben in the series, designed the Biomnitrix specifically with the design and capability of fusing aliens together without using some messed up method like the original one did.
Comparing a properly designed device with a malfunctioned one, and playing off their results as the same thing between the 2, would be intellectually dishonest and downright laughable.
And I don't care if this is, or isn't, about Alien X. And I have said like 4 times now that my comments on this isn't speaking specifically about Atomic-X (even if I personally agree with him being Low 2-C).
The point is that fusions in Ben 10 are never treated as being weaker in the first place, that was a never a standard, and was built on head canon by using a flimsy one time only circumstance thinking it was some kind of rule within the verse, when it wasn't.
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Then kindly stop responding to me then. I don't care if "no one cares" or whatever. Just because its irrelevant to Alien X's tiering situation does not mean that I will allow blatantly debunked misinformation to be passed around. Simple as that.
Because default assumptions are a thing, and common sense is a thing. As well as burden of proof, which you need to supply. Simple as that. I have every reason to go with addition being superior, while you need a reason to supply here on why it doesnt. And using flimsy examples like a malfunctioned omnitrix absolutely doesnt help you.
Common sense is absolutely an argument. Ignoring that is being intellectually dishonest as well and is only shifting the burden of proof away from yourself in an effort to hide the fact that you can't prove anything your saying compared to reasonable assumption and logic.
And we can disregard whats shown in the story when whats shown isn't a normal standard and is a one time only thing based off a glitch. This doesnt take rocket science to understand.
Ah yes, putting words in my mouth.
I never once said my interpretation is the end all be all. Im saying my interpretation is the most reasonable because it requires far little leaps in logic, while yours does not meet the burden of proof on how fusion, according to you, works in Ben 10. You want to argue fusion being weaker in Ben 10? Prove it. And had you done that, I wouldnt be arguing against it. But, since you haven't and more than likely can't prove it, im sticking with my interpretation.
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Except you were clearly referring to him when you braught up the Fusion thing even if you never said the word "Atomic-X" you were still trying to imply by your words that Atomic x > Alien x which is wrong.
Which is not
Imagine using this as an excuse lmao there is no proof that the Creator lied and answered this question just to satisfy his fans or anything like that, It literally can still be used as a supporting evidence when the show 100% support it no amount of this headcanon arguments are gonna chnage anything.
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MoA in the social media comment said "Yes" to Atomic x being weaker than Alien X which is posted by OP in the thread and it is considered a "A shitty social media comment" then MoA comments should be banned from vsbattle since they are not consistent I found a solution to this a Note should be added on main Ben 10 page stating: Using these as proof isn't allowed. This would be a smart move since this would allow us to not have these types of CRT's again, These "Atomic X being weaker types of content revisions" always seems to run in circles and now finally it's time to stop this.
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Okay sure they were made from glithes, are you now trying to say that it affects the fusions somehow (As in changing the fusion and making it differ from the biomnitrix, remember the fusion themselves)? If that is your assertion can you please provide evidence or substantiation within the Ben 10 verse. Why does the method the fusion is made even matter in the first place, the fusions are still the same right? Are you sure the original omnitrix wasn't designed to fuse aliens, like can you provide evidence for this claim right here, cause it is entirely in the realm of possibility that it was a feature of the omnitrix and Ben just happened to come across it in a glitched way.
I don't care if Ben is more intelligent, I don't care if he designed the Biomnitrix for fusions and can you prove that Ben 10K is 100% incapapble of fusing certain aliens due to their incompatibility please, because I don't know why you are saying that. What is this claim based on?
I agree they aren't automatically weaker but I think you're making the assumption that they are automatically relative or stronger which is built on head canon. Like I said the best way is to go by feats rather than your baseless assumption.
All this is, is a massive concession on your part and I'll explain right now, you are literally trapped. If you don't agree to fusions in the OG series not being weaker then all I would have to prove is that at least 1 fusion in OG Ben does get weaker and that would be a deadend. If you agree to fusions in the OG series being weaker than you would concede your first stance of "Fusions in general aren't weaker" which is clearly false based on what you agreed to just now (Hypothetically).
@ProfessorKukui4Life
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So what are you conceding to here? it not being relevant in this discussion of if Atomic X scales to Alien X or you actually related this horrible "Debunk" to Atomic X. Answer this, it is one or the other unless you have a middle ground of not answering the question and dodging it. To me tho that you just conceded to it being relevant at all to Atomic X in the message (Go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong here), so why did you bring it up in the first place if it has nothing to do with atomic X? Also, do you see where the confusion is coming from here, you are arguing "general fusions" but we aren't meant to assume or think you are referring to Atomic X as well with that statement especially on this thread which it is relevant to?
Burden of proof for what, please tell, what is my burden of proof. What claim did I make that I have to supply evidence for? When did you ever fulfill your burden that I was asking this entire time to fulfil.
Stop using this common sense thing as an argument because it isn't an argument at all, I already said to stop so why do you keep going back and doing it. All this is, is appealing to common sense fallacy so stop doing it, I don't care if it is common sense because that doesn't make it right at all and isn't relevant at all. Just because it's common sense to you doesn't make it the right assumption and what if that common sense is simply wrong, are you trying to assert that common sense is always gonna be right and you have no need to prove your claim as long as it's common sense you're good? No that is complete bullshit, now do you have substantiated or not because again I can just dismiss all of these claims via hitchens razor.
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I just outlined the massive fallacy you just committed and that your ENTIRE ARGUMENT hinges on. It isn't rocket science to figure out you're using fallacious reasoning to try and reach a logical conclusion either. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you are the one basing it off of headcanon. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you are ducking and dodging nearly all my arguments and questions. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you're getting literally destroyed on this thread and should concede. It isn't rocket science to figure out that your logic isn't reasonable and based on nothing. It isn't rocket science that you still haven't proven anything yet. It isn't rocket science to figure out I have no burden of proof thus far. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you're trying to assert that Atomic X scales above Alien X but you don't wanna make that assertion because you know it is wrong. It isn't rocket science to figure out that I asked you how I'm being dishonest and you had no response. It isn't rocket science to figure out that my intellectual dishonesty has nothing of relevance to do, I can be the most dishonest person in the world, why would it matter at all? It isn't rocket science to figure out your argument is really bad and the burden of proof is still on you. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you are appealing to common sense and personal incredulity. It isn't rocket science to figure out that you're the one going around saying we are using head canon to come to a logical conclusion (That we should go by what is shown/feats and what's stated rather than saying they're a fusion and thus automatically stronger or weaker). It isn't rocket science to address every claim I make. It isn't rocket science that MAYBE just MAYBE you are the one wrong here. It isn't rocket science that I need substantiation for not only your interpretation of a fusion but also why that would fit in the show.
I just responded the glitch statement twice and put you in a deadend twice, so I feel like you can check those messages out.
@ProfessorKukui4Life
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That's an illogical argument on Kukui part, first off that is a giant genetic fallacy, so stop trying to discredit where it was posted/invalidate where it was posted and actually tackle the content within. Nobody cares where it was posted, it could've been posted in the back alley of the dark web for all anyone cares because where it was posted doesn't matter, how many likes it got doesn't matter, and how many responses it got doesn't matter at all. None of it is relevant to the actual statement, so I don't know why this was even brought up at all. Why is it even a dumb comment, you never even explained why, all you said was that it was dumb so I guess I can just dismiss that claim right. @ProfessorKukui4Life
Now for you DD, disagree with not using MoA for several reasons firstly, that would be a massive association fallacy and is just overall illogical. Just because x set of MoA comments doesn't mean that we should now disregard them as a whole now, that makes to sense nor does getting x statements wrong mean the entire thing is now invalid. Also how is MoA inconsistent with their statements, can I get some proof or evidence backing that claim up (Here comes DD showing me a couple examples out of hundreds to thousands of statements and try and pass it off as consistent). Anyway it should be looked at case by case rather than completely generalizing on their comments.
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Thank you, that is what I'm saying, I think he just doesn't want to assert it for some reason, I trapped him tho so if he responds then we will see (Or he will duck and dodge the question like he did the first time).
Exactly, literally the only head canon I see is from him unironically.
Exactly, I agree with this 100%. Literally a massive genetic fallacy on his part. @Gohanblanco217
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