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Well, here we are again folks, with everything that is good in the next chapter of Ben 10 VSBW revisions. Yaaaaaaay.

Anyways, it's been a while since my last Ben 10 thread, but yes, we are here once again for a new revision thread, and as I’m sure you can see from the title, you already know the drill of where this is heading. So, let’s get right to it.

The Thread’s Purpose & Why We’re Here​


To summarize and debrief why we're here again with a new thread, last year I made a downgrade thread attempting to address issues I had with the state of the Ben 10 verse at the time, as a follow up to the thread Zamasu_chan had made himself that was addressing this first. His thread was addressing both Alien Xs scaling and the Cosmology at the same time and it got cluttered with different topics at once, which the discussion then got moved to this thread, but then it died out due to Zamasu’s inactivity. I revived the topic with my own downgrade thread to first talk about Ben 10’s Cosmology specifically. After a significant amount of back and forth discussion on the matter, my thread in its attempt to downgrade the Cosmology was eventually rejected.

After my thread finished, I specified that I would then make a separate thread at some point later to address issues I had with Alien X specifically. I’m revisiting this topic because the recent arguments I see justifying Alien X’s tier I find very problematic, don’t agree with them, and think they should be reviewed yet again under a new lens. The points Zamasu already raised against this last time appear to be very reasonable too, the only reason the discussion on this was dropped was because the person making them became inactive at the time, and lost interest. Which doesn't defeat said arguments. So im bringing them back. However, I never got the chance to make this thread sooner because of my own inactivity from then to…pretty much now. But since I’m (at least somewhat) back to being active now, the time for said thread to be made is also now.

So the purpose of this thread is now to follow up on addressing the issues with Alien X’s scaling like I said I would. Just like before, this thread here will be piggybacking off of points Zamasu already made about this, while adding in some of my own thoughts.

So let’s dive right into this.

Alien X’s Tier & Why​

To kick this off, let’s first examine why Alien X is rated the way he is. Alien X is currently being scaled above the Chronosapien Time Bomb and Chrono Navigator due to statements like these:

  • Possessing the greatest power in the universe
  • Can do "anything"
  • Having unlimited/limitless power
Evidence for said statements here:








The Chronosapien Timebomb is rated “at most” 2-A & the Chrono Navigator is 2-A / Possibly 1-B for having the power of nuking the whole Ben 10 Multiverse / Cosmology. With Alien X being > them, he’s also 1-B as of now.

So when you first look at this, this seems like very solid reasoning for scaling Alien X's power above them, right? Except, when you look at the actual deeper context behind this, not just on a surface level, it should be easy to see why this is problematic. Zamasu in his original thread already raised a bunch of points against this, so I’ll just start by quoting his arguments first.

"Omnipotence"​

Alien X currently scales above the Chrono Navigator and the Chronosapien Time Bomb due to statements of being the greatest power in the universe, can do anything, or having unlimited/limitless power.

First point​

Firstly, Alien X can't do any and everything. As stated in the following clip.
Ben: Bellicus, Serena you gotta let me use Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh.
Bellicus: Oh, it's too late for that.
Ben: What?! It can't be!
Serena: I'm afraid it is.
1:26
Alien X is too late to stop the Annihilarrgh from destroying the universe.

Ben: But Alien X can fix this right?... right?!
Serena: Alien X can do many things, we just both have to agree to it.
1:51
He's said to be capable of many things, instead of anything, by one of his main sources of power.

This point is reinforced again in this clip, where Ben says he was too late to save the universe and was forced to make a replica.

Second point​

This scan is not saying he has unlimited power but unlimited powers (plural). With the plural use or "powers", it's saying that he has unlimited abilities and can turn thoughts into reality. When one has an ability to turn thoughts real, then one would imagine it as having unlimited potential abilities depending on your imagination.
"It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It is where Ideas become real." The context is right here. The greatest power isn’t raw strength but it's making thoughts reality.

My point is only amplified due to this dreadful alien. Atomic X is not physically strong as Alien X due being a fusion. Agreggor, who'd also be a celestialsapien fusion, would be in the same boat as Atomic X yet was still considered to be omnipotent after stealing their powers. It's clear that the physical stats aren’t at play here. All he needs it the ability to think anything into reality to be considered omnipotent or have the greatest power in the universe.

Bonus: Ben 10K says that there's only one person in the universe that can help them against Maltruant, which is present Ben, despite Star Beard being on the ship at the time. This implies that regular Celestialsapiens aren't physically as strong as Alien X, making the "greatest power" statements more unlikely to be raw power. Just an interesting point I wanted to throw out there.

Third point​

We all know about Ben's failsafe, giving him the right alien so he won't die. Yet it never gave him the right alien, or any alien, when he was destroyed by the Chronosapien Time Bomb. Especially when it saved his life when a big bang went off in his face (Which Alien X couldn’t stop again). This heavily implies, if not outright shows, that Alien X is unable to stop the chronosapien time bomb at all, not even with the assist of a failsafe.

Overall, there are two instances of Alien X not being able to overcome the Annihilarrgh, one instance where the Chronosapien Time Bomb straight up negs Ben failsafe, which would include Alien X, and even having half of Alien X's DNA doesn’t make you so much of a physical powerhouse anywhere near AX's level. If Alien X can't cover come two weapons that Azmuth and Paradox are aware of, then their statements are merely wrong or even hyperbolic.

As you can see, we have several things to re-examine here. But the overall point here should be clear. The context behind Alien X's “Greatest power” statements don't refer to his actual raw power, but purely his abilities. Abilities that wouldn’t scale to your Attack Potency. And some of these claims are being taken to the highest level interpretation possible when said evidence for them doesn't quite match up.

"Can do anything"​


Firstly, this. Like Zamasu previously explained, Alien X can't do “anything” and everything. When the Annihilarrgh was destroying the universe, Ben tried getting Serena and Bellicus to let him use Alien X to stop it from doing that, but they both straight up confirm that it's too late for Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh. Then Ben asks them if Alien X is able to fix the problem. Serena, one of Alien X's main sources of power, responds to him by saying Alien X can do many things, so long as both she and Bellicus agree to doing it.

Key words: many things. Not anything.

This point gets supported further when Ben confirms he was too late to save the universe from being destroyed and, as we learn later on, was forced to make a whole new universe, a replica of the old one. Ben needing to create a copy of the universe demonstrates Alien X's limitations, such as not being able to stop the universe's on-going destruction and not remaking it in the exact manner it previously was. Otherwise, doing this would not have been a requirement.

"The universe was already destroyed by the Annihilarrgh, so there was nothing to stop"​


No

I've seen this response brought up often as a counterpoint when discussing Alien X's popular Universe Recreation feat. I firmly see this as headcanon with little to no basis to it. Why?

When we see the Annihilarrgh activate to commence with destroying the universe, it releases a dark-purple destroying wave that spans from itself. Upon releasing it, it quickly destroys the earth, then outer space and then everything it spreads over in every direction, except for Alien X, who is left in the void that gets left behind in the waves destruction.

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But when Ben arrives inside Alien X to speak with Serena and Bellicus, we immediately see the Annihilarrgh's dark-purple destroying wave still commencing with the process of destroying the universe. Multiple dark-purple ring shaped waves appear behind Ben, then around Serena & Bellicus, that all span and combine together to destroy the universe.

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We literally see and hear this process going on, point blank, from inside Alien X. If one is going to claim that the universe had already been completely destroyed by this point, then explain this. Why would we still see the Annihilarrghs waves continue to expand and wipe out everything? Why else would the show bother animating this if the destruction supposedly already finished? Doing that, at that point, makes no sense and serves no purpose as an added detail, unless…the Annihilarrgh wasn’t finished doing what it was doing.

Not to mention, Ben himself even notices the process in the middle of it happening and asks:

"Wait. The universe really is being destroyed?!"


He doesn’t ask if the universe was destroyed, but if it is being destroyed.

IS BEING destroyed means the process was still happening at that moment. For us to dismiss what the show goes through the effort in stating to us through the characters, and straight up showing to us clearly happening on screen through animating it, is ludicrous logic and a weak justification against an anti-feat / inconsistency.

Case end point, the universe’s destruction wasn’t finished, the Annihilarrgh was commencing with the process of destroying the universe, with no one being able to stop it. Not even Alien X, whose only alternative was to recreate what was getting destroyed. Even with being generous and somehow looking past this issue, 2 aspects of Alien X himself never state he can do anything in the first place, so it still suggests limitations to Alien X’s capabilities are present.

As a matter of fact, there is only one time ever in the show, to my knowledge, that Alien X is ever said to be able to “do anything”. And by only one character in the show, Azmuth. You’ll see in the very next section why Azmuths judgement on Alien X is completely irrelevant.

“Has the greatest power in the universe”​


This point next. We are given statements on Celestialsapiens, like Alien X, having “omnipotence” & possessing the greatest power in the universe, from those like Azmuth, Paradox and Serena / Bellicus themselves.

“It’s the source of the universe’s greatest power. It’s where ideas become real.”
-Paradox
“If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.” -Azmuth
“Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!” -Azmuth


As you can see, several statements on this matter of the “greatest power” are made. Except, the problem here, is that none of these statements are referring to raw power (Attack Potency) being the greatest power. We’re literally given context and clarification as to what each of these statements are talking about, every time they are brought up, and this said context doesn’t cover Alien X’s raw strength in any way. They’re talking about his abilities. His hax. Being able to change the nature of space and time and bringing your thoughts into reality are what the greatest power in the universe is, not having the greatest raw power.

“Change the very nature of space and time” = Space-Time Manipulation (Alteration)

“It is where ideas become real” = Reality Warping by making thoughts reality.

As well as the fact that, without any inference, Aggregor would have stolen the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Despite being a non-Celestialsapien and not physically as powerful as one, he was still considered “omnipotent” (pay attention to this point please because this will be brought up later as well for another issue)

And these clarifications are both made by someone with extensive knowledge on Celestialsapiens and one who literally IS an aspect of a Celestialsapien.

“Why would all references of “greatest power” only mean hax abilities? Why is it referring to that when there’s already a proof they aren’t just invincible in reality warping, but in raw power as well?”​


Because the very show itself gives that information directly to us? As was just explained, the context behind these statements is given to us, straight from the source(s). We don’t have to take details from the show and interpret them ourselves to determine what they mean on our own. It’s right there for us to see, point blank.

Serena/Bellicus & Paradox are the biggest in-universe sources of information for Celestialsapiens, closest things to W.o.G. right from in the show, specifying to us that making ideas become reality and altering the nature of space-time is what’s considered the greatest power in the universe. Not their raw power, not their strength, but these abilities. Each time we are given insight on Alien X’s power, this is what they specify along with it.

The only other character used as a source of information for Alien X is Azmuth, whos words would carry no weight compared to the aforementioned characters, since they are objectively far superior forms of judgement on Alien X than he is, and for self-explanatory reasons. Paradox has personally experienced and dealt with Celestialsapiens much longer than Azmuth (who’s never met one before that point AFAIK), and Serena/Bellicus ARE a part of Alien X. It is their powers they’re commenting on. Azmuth certainly wouldn’t know more than they would.

What I don’t even understand is what specific part of this context could even mean raw power? Honest genuine question, as I don’t understand or see given evidence to verify this, but just a lazily given generalization that it should refer to it and then handwaiving skepticism for that. We don’t do this for any other character or series on the site without next to always requiring solid clarified evidence, feats more preferably. Assuming a Celestialsapiens raw power gets covered by these statements is something that’s never suggested in the show and takes a lot more assumptions to argue for rather than just taking the context for what it is and as it is presented.

Also, Bonus point: I was rewatching scenes from Alien Force while searching for the evidence to link and found this. When we’re introduced to Serena and Bellicus after Ben uses Alien X for the first time, they say this to him:

Serena: We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe.
Bellicus: That’s because we’re the most deliberative.

This is interesting, because Serena and a Bellicus didn’t even initially consider themselves to be the most powerful being ever during Alien X’s introduction, but ONE of the most powerful beings (being also being pluralized) from the looks of this. That would further suggest that they’re giving the implication of other beings in the universe existing that could rival them, setting the precedent that they’re not superior to literally everything in raw power. Just something interesting I thought I should point out.

“Has Unlimited Powers”​


This scan or databook entry that cites Alien X having unlimited powers doesn’t say he has unlimited power, but power(S). “Powers” here is pluralized here to represent a number of capabilities. In this context, this speaks to Alien X’s set of abilities. As in him having an unlimited or vast amount of abilities and the ability to bring thoughts into reality. Which is speaking about Alien X’s hax. Abilities =/= raw power as a lot of us here should already know. How this also got equated to cover physical raw strength is beyond me.

Just as already pointed out before also, when someone has the ability to make their thoughts reality, then they can imagine that as being able to have the potential to have unlimited abilities, depending on your imagination & what that allows.

“It is the source of the universe’s greatest power. It is where ideas become real.”

Paradox’s own statement on Alien X gives us the context right here. The greatest power is turning thoughts into reality with imagination, not having raw strength.

“This is Nitpicking, this would still mean unlimited power in general”​


Based on…what? I saw this point raised before and I’m failing to see how this is really a counter argument. If this meant actual raw power, the scan would just straight up say “Unlimited Power” instead of pluralizing it to specify a set of abilities. Or it would say “Unlimited Strength”. It’s possible and not difficult to clarify what you mean with the right terms, if that’s actually what you meant. If the text fails to convey the correct terminology for what it’s argued to mean in a certain context, then it’s just not good evidence and likely means something else. Pointing that out to correct it isn’t nitpicking, rather that those making this argument aren’t providing sufficient enough evidence to match the actual claims they’re making.

Also want to briefly mention that this scan comes from a Ben 10 DVD database on Alien X, which while fine as acceptable evidence, should be a reminder on its level of canonicity when compared to the actual shows material.

And this leads me to the next point.

“Has Limitless Power”​


I also noticed this scan that was posted a while back to push the idea of Alien X having limitless raw power. This wasn’t brought up before, but there are problems with this as well.

The first problem is one I’ve called out before, so nothing new, but I’ll be doing it again. This particular scan, the only specific piece of evidence out of this that even mentions Alien X having limitless power, is a social media post and/or comment. Some of you already know where I’m going with this.

Social media responses you see on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc etc to answer fan questions are almost never allowed as acceptable evidence for upgrades here, ever. Not without giving damning evidence at the very least that the verse’s author(s) or creator(s) uses social media as their official “out-of-series” platform to give serious answers to fan questions that their series doesn’t already answer. Majority of the time, actual official interviews (when it’s the interviewers job to ask authors questions about their series and get feedback) is the more acceptable form of evidence when it comes to this. Otherwise, social media is generally disregarded as bad evidence in attempts to upgrade a character or series, especially by drastic levels like this. We even have this written and outlined in our editing rules page, and for a reason:

Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.
  • When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement needs to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid.
  • Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

So as you can see, using social media as evidence for revisions, rather than information from the actual source material in-universe, is extremely scrutinized and must meet a number of minimum checkpoints to be considered passable. Ben 10 threads have a history with using this type of evidence for revisions, so this is naturally a concern.

“Social media comments should be fine to use as long as they back up what’s provided in the series”​


After some back and forth in my previous thread, some raised the point that as long as social media posts from the creators support what’s done in the series, they should be passable to use as evidence, since they’re backing up what the series establishes (not the biggest fan of this, but sure?). This is also noted on the editing rules page as well. That’s why this time, I have a little bit more to argue with on why this is still a problem here, which leads me to the second problem.

If you look at the statement made for Alien X in the screenshot, you’ll notice that this is not even something stated by any of Ben 10’s creators. This is a post made by Cartoon Network, on their social media (or website?), done to promote the Ben 10 Ultimate Alien series at that time by giving a short promo of S1E16 of UA, “Forge of Creation”. Let’s break this down.

First of all, Cartoon Network is simply only a tv network that airs shows like Ben 10 on their channel/streaming services. While I argue adamantly against using social media as evidence, I would at the very least see the logic in accepting statements made by authors who hold actual authority over their fictions, since it’s their series they work on. But that doesn’t seem to even be the case here when it’s not any author making this statement, but a tv network. Unless im missing something, Cartoon Network has absolutely no level of authority whatsoever over the series. Not the shows source material or its context like a creator could have. So this shouldn’t even be evidence.

Second, the purpose & context of this comment by CN puts into question the level of seriousness behind what they’re saying. As I mentioned, this short statement appears to have been made only for promotional purposes to promote Ultimate Alien. “Watch more Ben 10 Ultimate Alien on Cartoon Network” is…as blatant as it gets on that. “Tapping into the limitless power of Alien X” appears to have been said only as an episode description to reference the “Forge of Creation” episode of UA when Ben, Professor Paradox and the others travel to the Forge of Creation to stop Aggregor from obtaining the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Which is literally the plot of said episode. In other words, CNs statement here is just shortly describing what the plot of the episode is while promoting the show. I would highly doubt CN would be giving a serious clarification about Alien X’s power with this when they’re only promoting the show they are airing on their network, and doing just that.

And finally, even if by some chance that I’m wrong on this, that CN does have a level of authority over the series and we can use their statements, why would this be “new evidence” to then prove Alien X physically upscales above everything in the Ben 10 verse, like the Timebomb or Navigator? Cartoon Network briefly describing the episode’s events can just be them parroting what was already established in-universe in the show, about a Celestialsapiens abilities being the greatest power in the universe and Aggregor threatening to tap into those abilities, not suggesting some other context like Alien X being physically superior to everything in raw power. And if it was suggesting that, then I would just argue that the scan and Cartoon Network contradicts the show & it should be disregarded. “Limitless power” is never, at any point, ever actually said in the show in the first place. That only comes from this “out-of-universe” comment from CN rather than being stated in-universe by any of the actual characters. The opposite effect is what’s done far more if anything. What’s stated in-universe is Celestialsapiens having “the greatest power in the universe”, and context upon examination points much more to the greatest power not being a Celestialsapiens raw physical power, but their abilities, as it was explained why earlier. Again, we don’t have to use any details from the show to figure out the context behind this for ourselves. The context is given right to us, and straight from the horses mouth. By Paradox, an expert who’s dealt with Celestialsapiens a number of times & by Serena/Bellicus, 2 literal aspects and power sources of Alien X themselves commenting on their very own powers. Not to mention, the cartoon series is also primary canon and absolutely takes precedence over an out-of-universe social media comment here, especially one not even made by the shows creators but from Cartoon Network. So if we’re going to make exceptions of allowing social media statements for revisions here on our site, this shouldn’t be meeting the bare minimum criteria for said exception.

Point being, this “limitless power” scan shouldn’t be “new” evidence to add in to suggest Alien X’s AP scales above everything. Its suggestion on Alien X being physically stronger than everything in power, and not just abilities, is largely unfounded and isn’t a foundation built within the show. It shouldn’t even be acceptable as evidence to begin with when it’s not even something said by any creator of Ben 10 anyway. Either it’s just referring to Celestialsapiens abilities being superior like the show establishes already, or it’s contradictory and it’s not evidence at all.

There’s some other points I want to bring back up here as well.

Omnitrix’s Failsafe​


So in Zamasu’s AX downgrade thread, the failsafe was brought up as one of the downgrading arguments since the failsafe didn’t select Alien X as a viable alien for Ben when faced with the Chronosapien Timebomb. The opposition then argued against this saying that the failsafe wouldn’t always select the alien Ben would need to fix any given situation he faces, and that it’s “NLF” to assume it would.

I’m not really understanding why this can be considered a No Limits Fallacy. Unless I’m misinterpreting the argument, the argument for the Omnitrix’s failsafe isn’t even that it’s perfect and would just give Ben the perfect alien to fix every & any predicament he’s in. The argument is simply that the failsafe would just give Ben the BEST Alien with the best chances of handling the given situation, so he doesn’t die. AN answer, but not a perfect flawless solution that would fix any problem without fail. Only the latter would be considered an actual NLF.

So while it would be obviously wrong to say the Omnitrix gives a perfectly flawless “way out” for Ben with his aliens, it also doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that you should go with the most powerful and capable alien in your arsenal to face the biggest metaphysical, destructive & existence ending threat you would be facing before you, if that Alien actually held the capabilities to stop it of course. So why wouldn’t Alien X just get chosen by the failsafe if the Omnitrix felt he had any chance against the Timebomb? It wouldn’t have just straight up switched to be in No Watch Ben’s possession if it felt it could end the threat itself.

There’s also the fact that, as previously mentioned, even if we dismiss this instance of the failsafe, the failsafe also didn’t choose Alien X when a big bang went off in Ben’s face, but the Omnitrix very much knew well enough to choose Feedback instead. Something not being perfect doesn’t dismiss the possibility of anti feats existing also.

Atomic X​


This alien fusion is always a controversial point to talk about when discussing Alien X’s tier, but there’s a few things about this that need to be addressed and re-addressed too. Being frank, I don’t even agree with how the site treats fusion Aliens in general for a few reasons in and of itself, but that’s not the biggest issue with this that I want to address for this thread, so I’ll just be referencing what Zamasu already spoke about on this point for now.

Since the site wants to go with this notion on fusion aliens being physically weaker than the individual aliens who make them up, then Atomic X is yet another reason why Alien X’s scaling is a problem.

Just as Zamasu took the liberty of explaining before, whether or not Atomic X is considered to be as physically strong as Alien X, or is physically weaker than him, that should have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Atomic X should still very much be considered “Omnipotent” in the same way Celestialsapiens are. And why is that? Since the point being made here is that their abilities are what makes them considered omnipotent instead of their raw physical power, what further strengthens this argument is the fact that, as previously explained, Aggregor, who isn’t even a Celestialsapien and is not as physically strong as one, was going to take the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien had Ben and company not offered any interference, and he too was still considered “omnipotent” after the fact.

If someone like Aggregor, a non-Celestialsapien, can take the powers of one and still be considered “Omnipotent” with said powers, then there’s absolutely no reason why Atomic X, with more Celestialsapien DNA by virtue of literally being half of Alien X himself, can’t be considered the same thing.

This would go to show even more that raw power isn’t what makes Celestialsapiens hold the greatest power, but simply their abilities are considered to be that level, and that a Celestialsapiens said abilities also don’t get “depowered” when their DNA is fused with other alien beings. Or when their powers are used by non-Celestialsapiens.

Regardless of however you interpret this, Aggregor is proof that a Celestialsapiens “omnipotence” doesn’t get taken away when their powers are in another beings hands for any reason, and the very same thing should be applied to Atomic X too, even if his raw power isn’t as strong as Alien X’s by site rules on fusion aliens.

Conclusion​


For several different laid out reasons, the evidence used to justify Alien X physically upscaling above the Timebomb, Chrono Navigator and everything in the verse with raw power to be 1-B is taken largely out of context and is just not sufficient enough proof to match the claim that he’s physically the strongest being in the universe. It’s been repeatedly explained what the context of this evidence actually means, and its isnt power / AP.

So Alien X should be downgraded to whatever the next suitable tier for him is. My guess is that would be 2-A because of his fear of recreating the Prime Universe.

Agree (7): @CurrySenpai, @Setsuna_tenma, @Dark_Soul20189, @Spectra_Schiffer, @Benimōru, @AKUTO123, @Pedonar

Disagree (27): @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000, @Reiner04, @Greenshifter, @Ghengiroo115, @zaraus, @OMNIVERSAL-KING, @MintyBoi1, @ProfectusInfinity, @Killerdrone123, @DonkeySlayer06, @Lynieryz, @LuffyRuffy46307, @SatellaTheWoE, @Robo432343, @Quantu, @AdamVhenJP, @Boyinluv2002, @DemonicDude, @Spectral69420 , @Electro7101, @Gendolfgg1, @Lovemovies14, @Ednaxel2, @Spilxson2, @Hellformer
 
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This looks good and logical, I agree for now. If valid counterarguments that can debunk these claims appear I will change my vote.
 
Ever thought of re-watching Ben 10 again?

Will comment later.
That is fine. I realize I made this at quite a late hour (mainly because this was the only free opportunity for me to post it), and I went in expecting this to be an extensive thread, so there’s no rush. I want this to go as smooth as possible.

Take your time.
 
So in Zamasu’s AX downgrade thread, the failsafe was brought up as one of the downgrading arguments since the failsafe didn’t select Alien X as a viable alien for Ben when faced with the Chronosapien Timebomb. The opposition then argued against this saying that the failsafe wouldn’t always select the alien Ben would need to fix any given situation he faces, and that it’s “NLF” to assume it would.
Okay then, As much as i understood Alien X being in control of Ben comes with quite of drawbacks, including Ben not being able to be decisive and what to do to perform certain actions and what not, making him not so very good Alien to use in as crucial times as 1-B Big bang in hands.

Second, the purpose & context of this comment by CN puts into question the level of seriousness behind what they’re saying. As I mentioned, this short statement appears to have been made only for promotional purposes to promote Ultimate Alien. “Watch more Ben 10 Ultimate Alien on Cartoon Network” is…as blatant as it gets on that. “Tapping into the limitless power of Alien X” appears to have been said only as an episode description to reference the “Forge of Creation” episode of UA when Ben, Professor Paradox and the others travel to the Forge of Creation to stop Aggregor from obtaining the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Which is literally the plot of said episode. In other words, CNs statement here is just shortly describing what the plot of the episode is while promoting the show. I would highly doubt CN would be giving a serious clarification about Alien X’s power with this when they’re only promoting the show they are airing on their network, and doing just that
Show has same statement as Cartoon network's episode description of Aliens X having limitless power, so there need to be better evidence than just "Nuh uh, idts"

“Why would all references of “greatest power” only mean hax abilities? Why is it referring to that when there’s already a proof they aren’t just invincible in reality warping, but in raw power as well?”​


Because the very show itself gives that information directly to us? As was just explained, the context behind these statements is given to us, straight from the source(s). We don’t have to take details from the show and interpret them ourselves to determine what they mean on our own. It’s right there for us to see, point blank.

Serena/Bellicus & Paradox are the biggest in-universe sources of information for Celestialsapiens, closest things to W.o.G. right from in the show, specifying to us that making ideas become reality and altering the nature of space-time is what’s considered the greatest power in the universe. Not their raw power, not their strength, but these abilities. Each time we are given insight on Alien X’s power, this is what they specify along with it.

The only other character used as a source of information for Alien X is Azmuth, whos words would carry no weight compared to the aforementioned characters, since they are objectively far superior forms of judgement on Alien X than he is, and for self-explanatory reasons. Paradox has personally experienced and dealt with Celestialsapiens much longer than Azmuth (who’s never met one before that point AFAIK), and Serena/Bellicus ARE a part of Alien X. It is their powers they’re commenting on. Azmuth certainly wouldn’t know more than they would.

What I don’t even understand is what specific part of this context could even mean raw power? Honest genuine question, as I don’t understand or see given evidence to verify this, but just a lazily given generalization that it should refer to it and then handwaiving skepticism for that. We don’t do this for any other character or series on the site without next to always requiring solid clarified evidence, feats more preferably. Assuming a Celestialsapiens raw power gets covered by these statements is something that’s never suggested in the show and takes a lot more assumptions to argue for rather than just taking the context for what it is and as it is presented.

Also, Bonus point: I was rewatching scenes from Alien Force while searching for the evidence to link and found this. When we’re introduced to Serena and Bellicus after Ben uses Alien X for the first time, they say this to him:


This is interesting, because Serena and a Bellicus didn’t even initially consider themselves to be the most powerful being ever during Alien X’s introduction, but ONE of the most powerful beings (being also being pluralized) from the looks of this. That would further suggest that they’re giving the implication of other beings in the universe existing that could rival them, setting the precedent that they’re not superior to literally everything in raw power. Just something interesting I thought I should point out.
I personally do want to say smth but I don't understand how any of it would prove "being greatest power in the Universe", "having infinite power", "having limitless power" wouldn't scale to AP? Paradox being more knowledgeable than Azmuth- yet never said anything about Azmuth being wrong? Well I just don't quite get it tbh.
 
What are your guys thoughts on this if your voting here?
I'm not a Ben 10 afficionado so I can't say for certain. Anything beyond Tier 2 is not my cup of tea, and 1-C and above I certainly would not discuss even if you threatened to kill me and my entire family. Plus, I'm a CGM so my vote here is meaningless. I just tagged three people who are knowledgeable in this subject, that's it.
 
What exactly is the OP suggesting? Downgrade Alien X's physical stats and leaving him at 1-B with his abilities? Or downgrade their physical stats and abilities from 1-B? And to what level does it suggesting downgrade Alien X?
 
I’m neutral on downgrading Alien X’s physical stats and making his “omnipotence” just his abilities. While it makes perfect sense based on what the statements all say, if that was the case then the fight between him and the Galactic Gladiator would’ve gone very differently.

I kinda disagree on Alien X not being able to reverse the Annihilaargh. While yes Serena and Bellicus do say he can’t, there’s also no reason why he shouldn’t be able to when you really think about it. Not only does it not make much sense for someone with reality warping powers to be able to create a new universe but not reverse the destruction of an already existing one, but with all his other statements and feats (some coming from Serena and Bellicus themselves) it makes even less sense that reversing the Annihilaargh is somehow a limit. This might seem like a cop-out, but I think it’s more likely that Serena and Bellicus were just lying and wanted permission to recreate the universe instead, as that would allow them to annoy Ben with stuff like the changed Mr. Smoothie taste. The quote “Alien X can do many things, we just both have to agree to it” further implies their intentions.

Alien X not scaling to the Chronosapien Time Bomb I definitely disagree with. Alien X isn’t bound by time iirc, so the CTB shouldn’t be able to affect him in the first place. Furthermore Alien X’s multiple “greatest power in the universe” statements put his powers above that of the Chronosapiens and their bomb by default, meaning he definitely could’ve reversed it. Clockwork could’ve also reversed it, so the failsafe not turning Ben into Alien X doesn’t mean he couldn’t of handled it. Also since the Omnitrix both survives the CTB (unlike the rest of them) and automatically attaches itself to No Watch Ben’s wrist, that implies it was considered No Watch Ben’s Omnitrix at that point (which obviously would mean there’s no danger for its user).

Also I’m not sure on why Feedback being used over Alien X for the Big Bang was brought up. The failsafe only gives Ben an Alien that can handle the situation. Feedback handling the Big Bang doesn’t mean Alien X can’t, especially since the “greatest power in the universe” statements would once again put Alien X’s abilities over Feedback’s by default. Maybe I’m just missing something here though, it’s very possible.

Tl;Dr: Neutral for downgrading Alien X’s physical stats, disagree for downgrading Alien X’s abilities

Edit: After being reminded of the extra-dimensional barrier I also disagree with downgrading his physicals as well.
 
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The Ben 10 supporters should all gather in a parking lot and beat the crap out of each other until one person remains and that person has exclusive rights to tier Alien X for the foreseeable future.
I'll referee the fight.

What are your guys thoughts on this if your voting here?
I think you make some compelling arguments and if they're going debunk them they need to make 1 big post and not 100.
 
The Ben 10 supporters should all gather in a parking lot and beat the crap out of each other until one person remains and that person has exclusive rights to tier Alien X for the foreseeable future.
Ant will no diff
 
Okay then, As much as i understood Alien X being in control of Ben comes with quite of drawbacks, including Ben not being able to be decisive and what to do to perform certain actions and what not, making him not so very good Alien to use in as crucial times as 1-B Big bang in hands.


I mean, while Ben of course wouldn’t have the perfect experience with using Alien X’s powers when given full control, it still shouldn’t really change the fact that if Alien X could handle the threats the failsafe was going up against, Alien X still should’ve been viewed as a viable option to deal with those threats, if he could. Even if we consider the Omnitrix taking Ben’s incompetence into account.

Show has same statement as Cartoon network's episode description of Aliens X having limitless power, so there need to be better evidence than just "Nuh uh, idts"


Okay, I’ll admit, this is better evidence than CNs episode description comment. But this statement should’ve been used instead since it’s from the actual show. I haven’t been on the site much at all since the Cosmology discussion I made before, so if this is already on Alien X’s page as part of his justification, that’s my mistake.

Now having said that, “infinite power” stated by that character would still have problems because of how the show contextualizes “infinite power”, “greatest power”, “omnipotent” and whatnot for Celestialsapiens and for us as I covered in the OP.

I personally do want to say smth but I don't understand how any of it would prove "being greatest power in the Universe", "having infinite power", "having limitless power" wouldn't scale to AP?

Well, like I covered and explained in the OP, the big problem is that all of these statements for Alien X & Celestialsapiens are contextualized in a way that wouldn’t be referring to AP. They are clarified to be referring to abilities that are the greatest power. Their hax.

Space-time alteration and using their imagination to make thoughts reality.

Paradox being more knowledgeable than Azmuth- yet never said anything about Azmuth being wrong?

Paradox gave his clarification of the Forge of Creation holding the greatest power after Azmuth spoke to Ben, Gwen, and Kevin. So he wouldn’t have corrected him.

Besides, all Azmuth said was “greatest power in the universe”. His word was rather vague until Paradox appeared to clarify what it meant, by saying that it’s where ideas become real.
 
Alien X not scaling to the Chronosapien Time Bomb I definitely disagree with. Alien X isn’t bound by time iirc, so the CTB shouldn’t be able to affect him in the first place. Furthermore Alien X’s multiple “greatest power in the universe” statements put his powers above that of the Chronosapiens and their bomb by default, meaning he definitely could’ve reversed it. Clockwork could’ve also reversed it, so the failsafe not turning Ben into Alien X doesn’t mean he couldn’t of handled it. Also since the Omnitrix both survives the CTB (unlike the rest of them) and automatically attaches itself to No Watch Ben’s wrist, that implies it was considered No Watch Ben’s Omnitrix at that point (which obviously would mean there’s no danger for its user).
About that, We know that only Prime Ben Omnitrix had Alien X which was given to No watch Ben. But we don't know if Any other else had it. We never seen Ben 10000 using Alien X but only Atomic, others may don't even have failsafe same as prime one, considering it is most developed of all. Ben prime gave his Omnitrix to no watch Ben was fail safe cannot be applied anyway. Ben also is kinda forgetfully about failsafe as was shown in "New Dawn".
 
I’m neutral on downgrading Alien X’s physical stats and making his “omnipotence” just his abilities. While it makes perfect sense based on what the statements all say, if that was the case then the fight between him and the Galactic Gladiator would’ve gone very differently.

I kinda disagree on Alien X not being able to reverse the Annihilaargh. While yes Serena and Bellicus do say he can’t, there’s also no reason why he shouldn’t be able to when you really think about it. Not only does it not make much sense for someone with reality warping powers to be able to create a new universe but not reverse the destruction of an already existing one, but with all his other statements and feats (some coming from Serena and Bellicus themselves) it makes even less sense that reversing the Annihilaargh is somehow a limit. This might seem like a cop-out, but I think it’s more likely that Serena and Bellicus were just lying and wanted permission to recreate the universe instead, as that would allow them to annoy Ben with stuff like the changed Mr. Smoothie taste. The quote “Alien X can do many things, we just both have to agree to it” further implies their intentions.

Alien X not scaling to the Chronosapien Time Bomb I definitely disagree with. Alien X isn’t bound by time iirc, so the CTB shouldn’t be able to affect him in the first place. Furthermore Alien X’s multiple “greatest power in the universe” statements put his powers above that of the Chronosapiens and their bomb by default, meaning he definitely could’ve reversed it. Clockwork could’ve also reversed it, so the failsafe not turning Ben into Alien X doesn’t mean he couldn’t of handled it. Also since the Omnitrix both survives the CTB (unlike the rest of them) and automatically attaches itself to No Watch Ben’s wrist, that implies it was considered No Watch Ben’s Omnitrix at that point (which obviously would mean there’s no danger for its user).

Also I’m not sure on why Feedback being used over Alien X for the Big Bang was brought up. The failsafe only gives Ben an Alien that can handle the situation. Feedback handling the Big Bang doesn’t mean Alien X can’t, especially since the “greatest power in the universe” statements would once again put Alien X’s abilities over Feedback’s by default. Maybe I’m just missing something here though, it’s very possible.

Tl;Dr: Neutral for downgrading Alien X’s physical stats, disagree for downgrading Alien X’s abilities

I’ll be responding to this in a few mins, just have to take care of something.
 
I mean, while Ben of course wouldn’t have the perfect experience with using Alien X’s powers when given full control, it still shouldn’t really change the fact that if Alien X could handle the threats the failsafe was going up against, Alien X still should’ve been viewed as a viable option to deal with those threats, if he could. Even if we consider the Omnitrix taking Ben’s incompetence into account.



Okay, I’ll admit, this is better evidence than CNs episode description comment. But this statement should’ve been used instead since it’s from the actual show. I haven’t been on the site much at all since the Cosmology discussion I made before, so if this is already on Alien X’s page as part of his justification, that’s my mistake.

Now having said that, “infinite power” stated by that character would still have problems because of how the show contextualizes “infinite power”, “greatest power”, “omnipotent” and whatnot for Celestialsapiens and for us as I covered in the OP.



Well, like I covered and explained in the OP, the big problem is that all of these statements for Alien X & Celestialsapiens are contextualized in a way that wouldn’t be referring to AP. They are clarified to be referring to abilities that are the greatest power. Their hax.

Space-time alteration and using their imagination to make thoughts reality.



Paradox gave his clarification of the Forge of Creation holding the greatest power after Azmuth spoke to Ben, Gwen, and Kevin. So he wouldn’t have corrected him.

Besides, all Azmuth said was “greatest power in the universe”. His word was rather vague until Paradox appeared to clarify what it meant, by saying that it’s where ideas become real.
I feel like this is more of semantics than anything else, "Having infinite power" can mean hax, "Having greatest power" is specifically referring to characters hax and not his general statistics. I think I don't have much, or anything to say about it since it's just whatever. Regardless of numbers of words the essence of argument doesn't really need much of response. So this is indeed my last response, regardless where this crt goes- unless needed more clarification regarding what i said i wouldn't comment any further. So agree to disagree.
 
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Actually I have a question: do we know for sure if the failsafe prevents death or reverses death? I ask this because there’s an argument for the latter, and if the latter is true then the failsafe argument wouldn’t really work anymore. Also you could potentially give Alien X a possibly 1-B durability feat as well.
 
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Tbf the entire OP is the definition of mental gymnastics:

The statement: “I can blow up the cosmology but this guy is really strong!”.

Kukui: Ackchyually, Alien X uses reality warping which is hax so power must be referring to him being very versatile and strength of hax isn’t tierable so he’s fodder kek.
 
Tbf the entire OP is the definition of mental gymnastics:

The statement: “I can blow up the cosmology but this guy is really strong!”.

Kukui: Ackchyually, Alien X uses reality warping which is hax so power must be referring to him being very versatile and strength of hax isn’t tierable so he’s fodder kek.
Tbh the statements in a vacuum could just be referring to hax, but when you consider stuff like Alien X physically fighting the Galactic Gladiator, Skurd using his DNA to breach the extra-dimensional barrier and Skurd possibly using his DNA to survive the Big Bang then the argument kinda falls apart.
 
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Also like warping reality is a very broad term, me sitting in my chair is warping reality because I’m bending space.

So the Chrono Navigator destroying space-time is also form of reality warping.

And if you agree that Alien X’s reality warping is better than the Chrono Navigator’s then you end up with the same result as what is currently accepted.
 
I don't believe it. The mighty Ovens has engaged in goonery.

There is no hope for this wiki anymore. Abandon ship, or abandon hope.
Bro I'm just tired of being asked to respond to an Alien X revision for the nth time only for a new one to change his tier 10 days later.

As I speak there is already another thread trying to upgrade him.

Can all of you collaborate on a Discord server or something before wasting my time yet again.
 
Tbf the entire OP is the definition of mental gymnastics:

The statement: “I can blow up the cosmology but this guy is really strong!”.

Kukui: Ackchyually, Alien X uses reality warping which is hax so power must be referring to him being very versatile and strength of hax isn’t tierable so he’s fodder kek.
More or less my views on it. "Alien X can do anything" means omnipotence, greatest power, infinite power is referring to only hax and not AP is kind of vague and idk what should I say. Since Can do anything can very well includes destroying all of cosmology. Not to mention it doesn't states anything about not having his physical stats scales to it. When we know that "Infinite power" "Unlimited power" mostly used for raw strength than hax. Fiction mostly don't dwell around hax or whatever terms too specifically, since they're vsbw terms. But meh.
Bro I'm just tired of being asked to respond to an Alien X revision for the nth time only for a new one to change his tier 10 days later.

As I speak there is already another thread trying to upgrade him.

Can all of you collaborate on a Discord server or something before wasting my time yet again.
We are.
 
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I disagree and I have a few debunks (I will give more debunks if needed )
ANNIHILARG THINGS YOU MENTIONED ABOVE
Well a personality of Alien X wants to "save dinosaurs" (I think it was bellicus , this happened in episode X = Ben + 2) but they are still arguing for it, now Serena's statment "I am afraid it is(late)" means same thing (her fair that since ben didn't stopped it before getting activated so Alien X will never decide to do anything)
I can back this up by fact that fraction of Celestialsapien DNA can cut through contimilla barrier (that protects contimilla from energy of annihilarg, and thus have durability to counter annihilarg)
So Celestialsapiens are faaaaar superior than annihilarg
also how Alien X created "a new universe" is universe wasn't destroyed because it is impossible to to re create a universe if it never got destroyed (if you say that because Alien X can do impossible things then you will ultimately contradict your own points)

PHYSICAL STATE OF ALIEN X BEING WEAKER
So first of all we cant just simply say that Alien X is weaker than CTB just like Atomic X (atomic X also has DNA of atomics and atomics is bounded by time , that's why Atomic x is below CTB) and the thing that starbeard couldn't help them is also not accurate as we don't even know that was it really starbeard or animation error (if he was starbeard then where was his staff + he came on earth first time with multiple attendants , also since he can fly so why he was floating after gravity went off)
FAILSAFE AND CTB
If omnitrix or biometric activated Alien X and he would have survived the CTB , then how was No watch Ben supposed to get Omnitrix, and if no watch Ben didn't got the Omnitrix then how would Ben prime get Omnitrix? So it was obviously a plot reason
I have some other debunks as well , I will send a few other things after getting free
 
Guys. Please refrain from making uneccessary replies here. Im aware I made this thread at a late time, and am trying to get through replies now (fell asleep)

So please give me a chance to respond back to people.
 
Isn't there still a good chance that Atomix made the celestialsapien DNA weaker? It's not like a fusion of Ripjaws and Heatblast would be more useful/powerful than a baby Pyronite
I don't think we scale Alien X to AtomiX either way. AtomiX has altered DNA of Alien X which makes it entirely different than Alien X, same as how Champanzees DNAs is close to us but still not us.
 
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