Big Alien X Downgrade (Wait…haven't we been here before?)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It does defeat the point, because they are by definition different things. Using other examples of hybrids/fusions/whatever again:

1. Very different from simply absorbing something
2. Extremely inconsistent even between themselves

It should be considered a case-by-case basis. This is all just by looking at the series itself too, once you consider Duncan’s diluted DNA statement then it’s even more blatant that Atomic-X and Aggregor can’t be compared.

You suggesting this to be done case by case already debunks your point, as all of your examples (as well as the Big Chuck example that I already gave an argument against before) are just false equivalencies.

The very fact that Aggregor was explicitly still considered to be Omnipotent with Celestialsapien powers, despite not being a Celestialsapien in any way, and only having 1/10th of their powers, a fraction of their powers, proves Celestialsapiens are of a different case than your typical aliens in the verse and that their powers, their Omnipotence, doesn’t get taken away when in the hands of another being. No matter who that being is. You don’t even need to be Celestialsapien to have it.

So you need to explain how a being that actually has Celestialsapien traits wouldn’t have Omnipotence, but a complete non-Celestialsapien with only a fraction of their powers would?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Staff members here:

Should this thread be closed now?

With all due respect Ant, I respectfully ask this thread not to be closed yet.

When @LordGriffin1000 had made comments earlier and discussed, I was not able to be here at the time to give my side or responses to points given yet. Between off-site responsibilities and me needing to respond to everyone’s points for being the only person arguing against a plethora of other people, requiring more time. I have asked him to make another response to see where he stands after taking my recent points into consideration.

If he still disagrees with the downgrade after that, then we can close this.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Didn't we get mass rejection? As far as i remember even administrators and moderators rejected it, but why is it still open?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Didn't we get mass rejection? As far as i remember even administrators and moderators rejected it, but why is it still open?

You mean mass rejection from a bunch of normal users. I asked @LordGriffin1000 to make another response here after taking my recent points into consideration as I was not here when you guys discussed with him for being busy and made responses to different things afterwards.

So I want to be given the chance to have him see what I had to say and if whether or not he keeps his vote to disagree.

 

[Reiner04]

Didn't we get mass rejection? As far as i remember even administrators and moderators rejected it, but why is it still open?

OP possibly wants Lordgriffin to re-evaluate his some points ig but I don't know how it's anything new than what had been already stated long ago.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You mean mass rejection from a bunch of normal users. I asked @LordGriffin1000 to make another response here after taking my recent points into consideration as I was not here when you guys discussed with him for being busy and made responses to different things afterwards.

So I want to be given the chance to have him see what I had to say and if whether or not he keeps his vote to disagree.

Therefore, we are also as important as administrators and moderators, we also decide whether or not this goes forward with our arguments

But you have your chances of defending yourself against all opponents.

OP possibly wants Lordgriffin to re-evaluate his some points ig but I don't know how it's anything new than what had been already stated long ago.

Honestly, we're at 9 pages, i highly doubt any of the team members will be interested.

But let's wait for his final word

 

[DivineAura44]

Therefore, we are also as important as administrators and moderators, we also decide whether or not this goes forward with our arguments

Blud don't know what site he on

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Blud don't know what site he on

Hehehe

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To clarify, @LordGriffin1000 had already came into the thread not reading fully everything (understandably) because of it being a multiple paged CRT, and changed his vote to disagree based on the things you guys were discussing while I was absent from here.

So after making my responses to those comments, I’d like to be given the chance to see if that would change his vote when taking that what I presented into consideration or if he still disagrees and then we can conclude this.

Not to keep using this as an excuse, but as I said, on top of my personal IRL stuff, I’m the only person arguing here against several others, so Im being somewhat overwhelmed with not being given as much of a chance to present my case when needing more time to respond to a bunch of different things whenever I can.

 

[Reiner04]

Blud don't know what site he on

Welp, as much as I like to joke about how u all are null, it does matters what regular users or majority thinks when it comes to semantics debate than of oneself, given Sagan standard which despite if not mean to source majority as an ultimate authority but many times is. But meh.

 

[Reiner04]

I’m the only person arguing here against several others

Welp, you don't know what we all are going through, as someone who don't have to reply after weeks and have been involved in continuous calcs and research regarding scans one after another non-stop while also having a personal life to deal with. I'd say we all got our problems to cry about. I've been smashing my head on Bambu's wall to reply on my one calc after his reply one week before that "Use this method", I did and he never cameback. What I'll do? I'll take revenge and delete that calc blog Outta existence. It may not affect him but will be satisfactory for me once if he ever comeback to look at my updated calc. I've got another calc accepted with higher result now. So I've deviated from actual thing which is, we all are victims. May not on same lvl but I definitely don't think my situation is any better.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Welp, you don't know what we all are going through, as someone who don't have to reply after weeks and have been involved in continuous calcs and research regarding scans one after another non-stop while also having a personal life to deal with. I'd say we all got our problems to cry about.

I never said that you didn’t have your own things to deal with either, but whether intentional or unintentionally, you guys have made it more difficult for me to properly participate in this thread when 5-7 people on your side have repeated the same exact points again and again and again. Parroting the same things again that just one or 2 people could have done themselves, on top of the derailing comments made, makes this unnecessarily more complicated than it needed to be. And @CurrySenpai and I had already asked multiple times before for people to only respond if they had actually something new to add to the discussion that someone else wasn’t already saying.

So yes, while everyone has stuff going on too, this thread went more difficult than it needed to and because of that, being more accommodating on time for one person to respond to everyone in this case shouldn’t be much to ask for.

Anyway, all that I’ll say for now. Have work.

 

[Reiner04]

You don't have to reply to everyone yk. Also ever since Griffin reply, PPL have been fairly civil and it went from 6 to 8 pages in considerable time of more than 1 week (mostly bumps). I think a controversial thread do go sometimes ppls commenting something w/o knowing it has been stated before just coz they want their opinion to be known, but given how DB and Ben 10 previous threads has went to 20+ pages where I've been the sole supporter (there were none when Alien X reached tier 1 first time). Welp, whatever ig, no point in discussing it.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

As far as I understood, this statement is based on the fact that by absorbing the power of the Alien X child, Aggregor would gain omnipotence, although he absorbs 1/10 of the force. This is also true for crossed DNA, I think

But we have one problem, the atomic X isn't actually 1/2 of of a Celestialsapien's power but rather 1/2 of a Celestialsapien's DNA which creates a lot of difference between his power and Alien X's power and he lacks a lot of traits and powers
Agregor was going to absorb 1/10 of power (so it wasn't going to divide)

 

[Gendolfgg1]

But we have one problem, the atomic X isn't actually 1/2 of of a Celestialsapien's power but rather 1/2 of a Celestialsapien's DNA which creates a lot of difference between his power and Alien X's power and he lacks a lot of traits and powers
Agregor was going to absorb 1/10 of power (so it wasn't going to divide)

Well, then I agree with you, moreover, this is similar to my above-stated theory that when absorbing DNA, only the powers of the Alien's physical avatar are transmitted, and when absorbing specific forces, the abilities of mental entities from higher dimensions are transmitted

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Well, then I agree with you, moreover, this is similar to my above-stated theory that when absorbing DNA, only the powers of the Alien's physical avatar are transmitted, and when absorbing specific forces, the abilities of mental entities from higher dimensions are transmitted

Idk about it
But in Atomic X's DNA point , 50% traits are lost + 50% new traits from a lower dimensional being are added , it's biggest drawback

 

[Reiner04]

As much as u can discuss stuff between yourself if related to a CRT (no matter how I phrase it but it's impossible for me to straight up say to stop discussing considering that goes beyond my power and since it is technically allowed to do), please refrain from discussing anything here as much as possible. This thread is almost near conclusion and u all are responsible for it's readability. Please use Ben 10 general discussion thread (I know thread barely started moving because of late responses but please be reasonable and understanding, first see if smth already has been stated or not before u reply).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agregor was going to absorb 1/10 of power (so it wasn't going to divide)

Uh, what exactly do you mean by this? The problem you guys aren’t seeing is that Aggregor isn’t a Celestialsapien at all. He doesn’t have any of their traits, and is only taking 1/10th the level of an aliens powers.

And that was still enough for him to be considered Omnipotent in the exact same way an actual complete 100% Celestialsapien is.

So why wouldn’t Atomic X, who already has more Celestialsapien traits by having actual Celestialsapien DNA and being half of Alien X, not have the same thing? It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Uh, what exactly do you mean by this? The problem you guys aren’t seeing is that Aggregor isn’t a Celestialsapien at all. He doesn’t have any of their traits, and is only taking 1/10th the level of an aliens powers.

And that was still enough for him to be considered Omnipotent in the exact same way an actual complete 100% Celestialsapien is.

So why wouldn’t Atomic X, who already has more Celestialsapien traits by having actual Celestialsapien DNA and being half of Alien X, not have the same thing? It doesn’t make any sense.

Read my previous explaination
Agregor was taking power , while atomic X took DNA (50% of DNA , so only half traits , half traits were replaced by traits and DNA of a mere 3D mortal)
For Celestialsapiens DNA (traits) can be divided but Power can't
And I don't think that Atomic X even have reality wrapping traits (he could have used it against maltruant instead of physical attacks)

 

[Reiner04]

I thought we were done with saying everything? Man are we really gonna debate and argue each thing endlessly. I'm telling it to everyone. I'm not sure if Griffin is still interested any further but ig we can wait for 1 or 2 days for his response. Until then, it would be better to not Drag things further, not saying anyone is doing something bad but just saying to keep things simple. Please.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Read my previous explaination
Agregor was taking power , while atomic X took DNA (50% of DNA , so only half traits , half traits were replaced by traits and DNA of a mere 3D mortal)
For Celestialsapiens DNA (traits) can be divided but Power can't

Okay. I think I see what your saying now and I’ll say this makes more sense to me than the things said before.

But then answer me this. Why would 1/10th of a Celestialsapiens “Omnipotence” still be exactly the same? Aggregor is only taking a fraction of the level of an Aliens abilities, so by sheer definition of Osmosians abilities, he can’t fully replicate an Aliens strength. Only a part of their power.

So if he can get Omnipotence despite that explicit drawback, why wouldn’t this just prove the Omnipotence isn’t based on raw power but hax? That having the hax of Celestialsapiens is all that’s needed to acquire the Omnipotence?

EDIT: This is my last reply for now, had a moment to answer some things so I took it.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

Why would 1/10th of a Celestialsapiens “Omnipotence” still be exactly the same?

Because it's in power , not in DNA , his power is unlimited/ infinite, so can't be divided
But they have a nature (DNA) which makes their fusions dilute
If you only take powers, then it won't be divided

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because it's in power , not in DNA , his power is unlimited/ infinite, so can't be divided
But they have a nature (DNA) which makes their fusions dilute
If you only take powers, then it won't be divided

From my knowledge, we never treat infinite power as infinite when it’s divided up. Hence why characters who get amped by Low 2-C and upwards aren’t considered that tier themselves.

You can’t have a “fraction of the Greatest Power” and still have the greatest power. It’s one or the other.

So either Aggregor has up to 1-B via power absorption, or the Omnipotence just isn’t strength based.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Staff members here:

Should this thread be closed now?

I think I agree with closing the thread too.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

we never treat infinite power as infinite when it’s divided up

Don't you think that you are being a little bit circular and ignoring something?
Power getting divided isn't my main point , it's addition of traits of a 3D being

 

[Firestorm808]

"So either Aggregor has up to 1-B via power absorption, or the Omnipotence just isn’t strength based."

@Reiner04

I was under the impression that Aggregor already had "up to X via power absorption" in his profile.

Did we not give it to him because he didn't get to do it or did we forget?

 

[Reiner04]

"So either Aggregor has up to 1-B via power absorption, or the Omnipotence just isn’t strength based."

@Reiner04

I was under the impression that Aggregor already had "up to X via power absorption" in his profile.

Did we not give it to him because he didn't get to do it or did we forget?

He already has his absorption capabilities to that lvl if ever comes into contact with but since he never turned into Alien X or absorbed his powers, we didn't gave him "Alien X" key, same as how prime timeline Albedo didn't had Alien X key despite he could have it.

Although, since feedback absorbed the bigbang on screen we have made that key for him and mutated OV Kevin since he did came into contact with such power.

 

[Firestorm808]

In any case, with @DarkDragonMedeus and @Antvasima 's consent, I'll be closing this thread.

@Reiner04 Let us know when your draft notes are ready to be evaluated in a new CRT.

 

[Reiner04]

@Reiner04 Let us know when your draft notes are ready to be evaluated in a new CRT.

Okaish, since I've 5 ben 10 crt's still left to be applied it'll take a while but I'll be done within this week.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

To understand why it took me so long to respond to this

Spoiler

I apologize for reopening this but I did intend on commenting on this thread again to respond but I have been extremely exhausted mentally, this is why I have that bold text on my wall that some people keep missing. And just to give an explanation so people understand why I'm exhausted (because I don't want people to think I'm just ignoring them), at least twice a week I babysit my niece and nephew, I'm almost always going to the store or other places for my family which isn't a problem but given I live in a neighborhood where people are shooting at each other almost every night, it's depressing. Heck not just two days ago my mother was coming out of the store during the day and some people were driving down the road shooting at each other, but luckily she wasn't hit but this should give people an understanding as to why I'm not really active and exhausted a lot of the time (Luckily I'm getting my rest).

Despite the above, I promised Professor that I'd take a look at his response (especially since he messaged me before I updated my status so I don't mind evaluating the request) and although this is closed, I still think I need to respond to his post given I have some energy and time to do so.

Regarding this part about DNA and the Biomntrix, I wasn’t going to initially comment on this, but this is exactly part of the reason why I have issues with this whole argument about fusions being “weaker” as these examples are just….bad evidence. Particularly this example with Big Chuck.

Going by this clip you posted, Big Chuck was only “held down” by Eons minions for like literally 3 seconds. That’s it. At the end of the day, Big Chuck ended up shaking them off, devouring them and blasting them away in the rest of the clip and didn’t struggle in doing that. He beats them and fairly easily. Your explanation of the clip made it seem like Big Chuck was either stomped or got completely slammed down by them when that’s not what really happened at all. If a 3 second hold down is all that you guys have to suggest Big Chucks physically inferior to Way Big, then this is just inflating a very minor moment of Bad Writing. A character getting held down for a second by an opponent, something we see all the time across fiction, doesn’t really mean much of anything. It’s not a serious overview of that characters capabilities.

The only thing about this you may have a point on is the height aspect, since Big Chuck obviously doesn’t have Way Bigs height characteristics, but Way Bigs AP and tier doesnt come from only his size, does it?

Yeah so my thoughts on this was more or less that more so the physical aspect of the aliens. While I'm not sure Way Big's race power depends on their size, the fact that he's not like them puts it into question if he's on their level or not. Potentially gaining something and or losing something.

If you want to judge alien fusions on a case by case basis depending on their feats, that’s something I can go with. But if we’re doing that to make exceptions depending on the alien in question, this should give support to the arguments on why Celestialsapien fusions shouldn’t be treated inferior to individual Celestialsapiens. Atomic X I’ll make comments for specifically later on.

But like it’s been mentioned here before several times, Aggregor by definition and how his power absorbing abilities explicitly work would be a clear cut partial Celestialsapien as well like Atomic X. Aggregor only takes 1/10th of the abilities of the alien species he’s taking powers from, so he’d essentially only be “1/10th Celestialsapien” in this case. A fraction of a Celestialsapien that should be far far away from that of a pure individual Celestialsapien, even worse than Atomic X in terms of rewritten DNA or what carries over. But even despite being just 1/10th of what a Celestialsapien is, Aggregor would still be considered Omnipotent exactly like how a Celestialsapien would be once obtaining their powers. Aggregor proves being 100% Celestialsapien is not required to have their Omnipotence / Supreme power.

The only way Aggregor can be considered that, even with his limitations, is if a Celestialsapiens Omnipotence isn’t based on their raw strength, but their hax abilities, and that having those hax abilities is what makes you considered to have Omnipotence here.

I understand this point, logically if Celestialsapiens have that level of power even if it's 1/10, it's still comparable. The only thing I think is different is that since it's more so like a fusion of genetics, we don't really know the the outcome. Throughout fiction, fusions have various impacts and while I can agree that its still odd for Atomic X to be so weak but just seeing the biological differences bring it's scaling to Aliex X in question in my opinion

Because Alien X can also just as easily be a unique case compared to normal ordinary aliens in the show. And it wouldn’t be unfounded to treat a race of celestial entities with abilities far superior to that of regular aliens as their own case. Especially if you go by Reiner suggesting to treat alien fusions as case by case depending on feats.

And also because of what I explained above regarding Aggregor’s case, where he’s explicitly far inferior physically to a Celestialsapien but would still have their Omnipotence, even if he’s just “1/0th” of one.


What do you think of the above information I presented here @LordGriffin1000 ? Regarding the DNA stuff, Aggregor and whatnot.

I understand the points you're trying to make and I definitely think s case by case basis is something we should look at for alien fusions. There are different interpretations one can have. I'm kinda on the fence again but the way I see it, I can see Atomic X being an argument but not a solid counterpoint. As I mentioned before though, I don't know everything about Ben 10 or at least enough to provide solid responses. I guess that puts me back on the neutral side though I think you make some valid points.

That’s pretty much been the premise of my thread here, just to clarify. I don’t agree with Alien X physically upscaling in raw power, but his hax abilities are a different story. You could note on his page that he’s 1-B or whatever with reality warping, that he has 1-B potent abilities relative to the verses dimensions (26-D hax) and I wouldn’t be opposed to it.

This is something I wouldn't have a problem with giving my thoughts regarding some of the statements I mentioned in my previous post but I mentioned that Alien X did physically cut through that barrier. I know issues were brought up with this but it my thoughts indifferent.

Overall, I'd probably go back to being unsure as I find logical points on both sides but majority seem to have disagreed so my thoughts wouldn't really mean much but I still wanted to put them out as I did promise Professor I'd comment and I apologize for being late to respond. I will close this thread again.