Ainz vs Aqua (Konosuba) Speed Equal

[Gabriel_00]

@DeathNoodles it wasn't who said 3-A WCI, also resistance means very little when you are way lower in tier, just go and check the resistance page, it says tha resistances are not absolute and a stronger character should logically bypass said resistances. So, unless you are arguing for 3-A/5-B WCI wich should be an outlier considering previously shown poer levels in the series, there's no logical way ainz resists a turn undead.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Then should i change it to goddess key? I thought there would be a bigger gap...

Based on her profile, the only gap that gets bigger is AP, but even then her Goddess key is only unquantifiably stronger than her Mortal key in AP.

 

[JorgeDaJiboia]

I made the change hoping it would make this more decisive, without the robes ainz still has two layers of resistance to peirce, i hoped giving ainz his robes would make it more clear cut, it doesn't seem to have. Id do something for aqua but she doesn't have much i can do to her that would make it more descive either way short of using her, goddess key which isn't even a fight.

I'm still confused about this, why was this fight unfair the way it was (without the robes) in the first place? The way I see it, Ainz can decisively win by using teleport and his other stuff instead of Grasp Heart, but since it is his favorite spell, it not working gives Aqua a chance to retaliate before he casts a second spell (as she is bloodlusted against undead). Its not a stomp for either side, so where is the unfair part?

The fact that you gave him the robes right when we started metioning his holy weakness seems like you are changing the battle to make our arguments invalid, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

People were still arguing that his world class item and turn resistance were enough, I thought the robe would put the argument to rest. It did not so I'll remove it, everyone seems more focused on his world class item anyway....

 

[Gabriel_00]

@Pen, stop changin the conditions for the battle

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Fine ill put it back

 

[Gabriel_00]

@Pen, aqua 100 thousand times Ainz AP that she can use on her turn undead, How would 3 layers of resistance help him?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I don't know, just thought it was worthy of note. I was hoping to end the circular argument, and kinda hopeful it wouldn't just be oneshots, which was a mistake. Aqua doesn't have much i can give her to make it more desicive that she does peirce ainz resistances.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@DeathNoodles it wasn't who said 3-A WCI, also resistance means very little when you are way lower in tier, just go and check the resistance page, it says tha resistances are not absolute and a stronger character should logically bypass said resistances. So, unless you are arguing for 3-A/5-B WCI wich should be an outlier considering previously shown poer levels in the series, there's no logical way ainz resists a turn undead.

"Resistance is the ability to lessen the effectiveness of certain techniques and abilities through whatever means, such as greatly decreasing the potency of Mind Manipulation or nullifying it altogether. In many cases, it can occur through sheer willpower, especially in the case of mental attacks. For any ability, resistance to that ability can be demonstrated, to varying degrees of effectiveness, ranging from slight and mostly inconsequential to extremely high, potentially completely nullifying those abilities. However, like everything else, resistance has to be judged based on feats.

The highest degree of resistance is outright Immunity, preventing use of that ability on any scale from affecting the user at all. However, immunity is not easily gained, as while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability. Outright immunity should nearly never be given except in certain cases, such as being immune to Soul Manipulation due to lacking a soul."

Nothing in the page says anything about tiers or AP. And the "more potent uses of that ability" refers to hax abilities, not AP. Durability negating hax does not depend on AP, so there would be no correlation between AP/tiers and Durability negating hax abilities. I don't know where you're pulling the resistances being overpowered by tiers/AP thing from, but we don't scale hax by AP. Existence Erasure by a 9-B character wouldn't be any less potent than Existence Erasure by a 6-C character as the target would still get erased from existence all the same anyways, as Existence Erasure does not care about AP or tiers. The only way you can argue that hax can be resisted by sheer AP/tier is when the higher-tiered character is literally a higher dimensional existence, that's it.

Soul Manipulation and Existence Erasure are durability negating hax, so they should not depend on AP, which is what the users arguing in Aqua's favor stated about her Purification being the combination of both.

As for WCIs, they literally were treated as something absolute and formidable in Overlord. There is even a feat made by a WCI called Ouroboros (which is one of the twenty most powerful WCIs), which has a feat of being able to seal off an entire world, and even it couldn't affect WCI users due to the established "World Protection" that WCIs bring. And there are no other events/feats that contradicts the power and feats of WCIs (this is how outliers comes in, through contradiction. If an established character or abilities has showcased feats/abilities that has not contradicted each other, then it isn't an outlier. In the case of WCIs, they literally cannot be contended by anything other than other WCIs, so there is no contradiction between the capabilities of WCIs. No contradiction means that there are no outliers). Abilities that are rarely used aren't outliers, for being rarely used does not mean that its established power and abilities are contradicted. There are only outliers when there are events that showcases contradictions in the established capabilities for something, in which there aren't any for WCIs.

 

[JorgeDaJiboia]

@DeathNoodles "more potent uses of that ability" does not refer to Attack Potency?

 

[DeathNoodles]

@DeathNoodles "more potent uses of that ability" does not refer to Attack Potency?

No it does not. The "more potent uses of that ability" refers to the mechanics of the hax abilities and resistances to it. Say, if a character resisted a Soul Manipulation (which is durability negation) ability mechanic via resisting their soul being ripped out of their body, it does not mean they can resist a mechanic of Soul Manipulaton hax such as their soul being absolutely destroyed or erased out of existence. Resisting your soul leaving your body is different from resisting your soul being completely destroyed or wiped from existence.

I'm pretty sure more potent uses refers to mechanics, not AP, as durability negating hax does not depend on AP.

 

[Gabriel_00]

@DeathNoodles, wow, nice strawman, i never said that durability negating hax can be overpowerd by massive amounts of durability, what i am saying is that if you have resistance to X and another character can attack with said hax but with a AP gap of 100,000 times and said hax is linked to his AP theres no logical way of defending the weaker character resisting it.

"while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability"

As i said Overlord has no feats that come even close to what you are arguing for, Bayonetta was downgraded due to a feat that came from a statement that was stupidly higher than everything in the verse, Noctis was downgraded because his summons "Holding the power of the stars" was too vague, Ishtar from the Fate series was downgraded because chaneling the power of a planet isn't a reliable feat. But if you still insist on threating Ainz as having 3-A/5-B resistances you are free do make a CRT after this thread is done.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@DeathNoodles, wow, nice strawman, i never said that durability negating hax can be overpowerd by massive amounts of durability, what i am saying is that if you have resistance to X and another character can attack with said hax but with a AP gap of 100,000 times and said hax is linked to his AP theres no logical way of defending the weaker character resisting it.

"while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability"

My points did not say anything about durability negating hax being resisted by sheer durability, just that it does not depend on AP. Also, your point about "if you have resistance to X and another character can attack with said hax but with a AP gap of 100,000 times and said hax is linked to his AP theres no logical way of defending the weaker character resisting it", that's literally not how we treat durability-negating hax (again, it disregards durability, so AP is basically irrelevant all together). If a a hax ability negates durability, then we don't scale AP to it, so a character with a type of hax but has higher AP wouldn't overpower hax resistance that resisted hax abilities that negate durability. Period. A target that resisted an attack that completely destroys the target's soul wouldn't be affected by a higher AP character with the same soul attack (that completely destroys the target's soul) as their soul not only can't get anymore destroyed, but also the fact that souls aren't physical nor does a character's stronger physical attack would have any effect (so scaling AP and raw physical destruction is a moot point, for that is not how durability-negating hax gets treated).

You accused me of using Strawman fallacy, and yet you tried to point out arguments that I haven't even mentioned by your words. My points were all tailored towards your points about resistances to durability-negating hax abilities being overpowered by higher AP of the same type of hax, in which you've just confirmed such points by this reply (and I've already made my points about durability-negating hax not depending on AP, thus resistance to durability-negating hax should not be overpowered by a character with the same type of hax but has higher AP, for that is not how durability-negating hax is treated).

Bayonetta, Noctis, and Ishtar downgrades (because of vague statements or whatever standards that other fictional verses has that do not apply to all fictional settings) are irrelevant in this thread, for there is information about Nazarick's backstory of encountering the Ouroboros WCI (which was explicitly stated that it sealed off an entire wold, preventing players in Nazarick and all the other players from accessing it without equipping WCIs, in which there wasn't enough amount of WCIs for everyone in Nazarick), and even backstory information about Nazarick gaining Depiction of Nature and Society (which is the reason for why they even have this WCI in the first place). Not all fictional settings have the same standards, and thus should be judged on a case by case basis. In this case, there's nothing contradicting the abilities of WCIs as of now, so you cannot disregard WCIs and its resistances as outliers that can't be used in Versus debates.

And I don't need to make a CRT about anything as resistances granted by WCIs is already in Ainz's profile, and the profiles of the Nazarick guardians. The capabilities of WCIs aren't the same as the Overlord character's abilities, as it is not a part of their power anyways (it is an external source being used), so resistances granted by WCIs (which can resist abilities and the potency of such from other WCIs) are valid here as it's not an outlier (which is based on contradictions).

 

[FDrybob]

Ainz's world class item is not an outlier, nor is it unmentioned in his profile. In fact, we already had a CRT for adding its resistances a while ago. It's part of his standard equipment, and he keeps it on him at all times. It is that red orb glowing in his chest. It has already been established multiple times in the Light Novel that world items are all far more powerful than even the best players in the game, and are capable of affecting entire worlds (hence their classification). Stop trying to brush off WCI resistances. To reiterate, we already did a CRT for world item resistances a while ago, and it went through. They are far above Aqua.

 

[ANDELE3025]

@DeathNoodles, wow, nice strawman, i never said that durability negating hax can be overpowerd by massive amounts of durability, what i am saying is that if you have resistance to X and another character can attack with said hax but with a AP gap of 100,000 times and said hax is linked to his AP theres no logical way of defending the weaker character resisting it.
"while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability"

As i said Overlord has no feats that come even close to what you are arguing for, Bayonetta was downgraded due to a feat that came from a statement that was stupidly higher than everything in the verse, Noctis was downgraded because his summons "Holding the power of the stars" was too vague, Ishtar from the Fate series was downgraded because chaneling the power of a planet isn't a reliable feat. But if you still insist on threating Ainz as having 3-A/5-B resistances you are free do make a CRT after this thread is done.

Both series originate their powers in D&D, Turn Resist 3 (aka boss creatures Turn Resist/Turn Reist of +12 effective HD) means aqua just does 3d6 positive energy chip damage, form her Sacred Divine feats/part of her being a goddess thus all undead take "holy" damage even if they resist the turn undead itself (which deals no damage, just stuns and if its a sufficiently weaker undead, instantly destroys them).

All of these things work in Konosuba the same way they work in D&D (Dullabro ignores Turn Undead with just Turn Resist 1 from armor and level, hell even in IQ joke scene Ainz Resisted it too, but shallchair didnt, being stunned/cowering condition applied in the corner). She (stat capped and maxxed out on Turn potency due to it and even boosted beyond normal) failed to get her Turn resist against lesser undead in her own verse (which again also actually accurate to D&D as destroy undead even with minmaxed +6 to hit dice destroy check target cant destroy liches... or well most undead above mid levels).

 

[FDrybob]

It's true that both series are inspired by DnD (almost all fantasy is), but they both also stray from it in many aspects. Therefore, you shouldn't assume that DnD mechanics apply unless they have explicitly been shown to do so.

 

[ANDELE3025]

Except they were shown to work that way. Dullabro even beats Aquas max turn rolls by just wearing turn resist armor (which made her turn undead and sacred turn undead just singe him, same as actually shown in isekai quartet with the joke scene), even if we use anime version which doesnt have it, 3 turn undead in a row by aqua still didnt kill him.

 

[Gabriel_00]

@FDrybob i'm not ignoring the WCI existance neither am i dening ainz resistances, what i'm saying is that they shoudn't be considered as working on the level of power everyone is saying they are as it is most likely an outlier(i could be wrong). All the downgrades i mentioned earlier in the thread didn't contradict anything but happen because the statements where too vague, just like the WCI. The only real "feat" from the WCI is sealing a world, back in the time where worlds used to be the size of tokyo and it didn't even affect the world itself just prohibited other player from entering it, also the WCI in question worked by contacting the dev team and asking for something so it was't actually the WCI doing the "feat". the second evidence is their description and "being equal to a world in power" falls under the outlier i mentioned earlier. Also, but i will not insist on this part, the wiki says that the only way to opose a WCI is via another WCI or having a special class, wich is world champion. So, a world champion can protect himself from a world class item but gets defeated by three Lv 100 players?

About resistance to hax not being related to tier, while that is true in some cases(time stop from example) it doesn't aply everytime, especially when we talk about ofensive hax. The resistance page says "while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability. Outright immunity should nearly never be given except in certain cases, such as being immune to Soul Manipulation due to lacking a soul." meaning while you may be resistant to a certain hax a character with more power output(the power must be correlated to the hax) should bypass the resistances of another less powerfull character to said hax example:

character A is tier 3-A and has a hax that allows him to cut space, character B is tier 9-B and has resistance to space manipulation, is character A used said hax on character B due to the power output character B shoudn't resist the attack unless he has a feat of resisting around 3-A levels of said hax.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

No Large Texts sure you didn't filling comment?

 

[FDrybob]

There's a lot wrong with your first paragraph.

1. World items that contact the devs no longer have that restriction in the New World. Everything that used to need the devs' permission now works completely on its own, so yes, Ouroboros's sealing feat is from its own power. It didn't just seal off the world from a few players, it sealed it off from everyone except for the guild that used it. That's not even close to its potential either, since it is a wish granting item.

2. World Items are not lacking in feats, nor are they too vague. There is another world item called Ahura Mazda, which is capable of dealing constant damage to all evil entities in the entire world. There's Five Elements Overcoming, which is capable of changing how magic works. There's the Caloric Stone, which can be used to forge an item unmatched by anything in the game other than world items. Ainz's guild used theirs to forge a golem NPC named Rubedo, who is by far the strongest entity in Nazarick, and is capable of defeating Touch Me. There's World Savior, a club capable of conquering Great Tomb of Nazarick and the guild of Ainz Ooal Gown at its peak. For reference, a raid of 1500 players and summons were defeated on the 8th floor without any guild members raising a finger. I hope that these examples make it clear that world items are not lacking in feats.

3. World Items are not outliers. First of all, what would they even be outliers of? There's nothing comparable to them in Yggdrasil, and the only thing that can even resist them other than other world items is wild magic, which we don't know that much about. World items each have a different level of power compared to others, but even the weakest world items can completely nullify the strongest world items. You cannot claim that World Items are outliers when there's nothing else comparable to them in Overlord.

 

[DeathNoodles]

About resistance to hax not being related to tier, while that is true in some cases(time stop from example) it doesn't aply everytime, especially when we talk about ofensive hax. The resistance page says "while someone's resistance to a certain kind of attack may be absolute within their verse, it is not necessarily the case against more potent uses of that ability. Outright immunity should nearly never be given except in certain cases, such as being immune to Soul Manipulation due to lacking a soul." meaning while you may be resistant to a certain hax a character with more power output(the power must be correlated to the hax) should bypass the resistances of another less powerfull character to said hax example:

character A is tier 3-A and has a hax that allows him to cut space, character B is tier 9-B and has resistance to space manipulation, is character A used said hax on character B due to the power output character B shoudn't resist the attack unless he has a feat of resisting around 3-A levels of said hax.

You would have a point if it weren't for the fact that hax negates durability, therefore it does not depend on AP. Period. Space cutting hax used by a tier 3-A shouldn't be any more potent than Space cutting hax used by a tier 9-B, as space is still getting cut all the same (thus, bypassing durability, making AP irrelevant ), so resistance to durability-negating hax is judged by mechanics, not AP. Not all series works via Dragon Ball Z logic, where raw output is everything, as there are cases where higher tier characters loses to lower tier characters due to superior hax abilities alone. Plus, nowhere did the Resistance page say anything about AP being the factor for the resistance (or anything about AP). Just because it uses the word "potent" doesn't mean that it is referring to Attack Potency. I don't know where you got the interpretation of durability-negating hax (and resistance to it) being judged by AP from, but hax and hax resistances is usually judged by mechanics rather than raw destructive output in this site (many Versus debates I've gone to for hax characters vs hax characters has proven such). Again, not all fictional series works like DBZ. And if there are hax abilities whose mechanics is explicitly dependent on AP (as such, sheer durability or raw physical power could resist it), then it's not truly hax as it is not actually durability-negating.

And that analogy would've been logical if it weren't for the fact that there is no dimensional tier difference between tier 3-A and 9-B, making them both 3rd dimensional beings. If it was a tier Low 2-C entity instead, then its up for the 9-B being to prove that their hax abilities can affect higher dimensional entities such as 4D beings and to also prove they can resist the hax used by the said higher dimensional entities (or else the 9-B character would not be able to affect the 2-C entity by default due to not having proof that their hax can work on 4th dimensional entities, regardless of the fact that the 2-C being may or may not have resistance to their hax, as there is a dimensional tier gap between them). If there is no dimensional tier gaps between the characters pitted against each other, then the one who doesn't have resistance to the other's hax abilities would get affected. So if there is no dimensional tier gaps between the characters pitted against each other, we judge hax and hax resistances based on mechanics, not by AP.


I don't need to go into much detail about WCIs, as FDrybob already covered it, though he isn't entirely correct about Wild Magic being able to resist the effects of WCIs. So far, there is no explicit proof that Wild Magic can match or resist the abilities of WCIs. We only have proof that WCIs can resist the effects of Wild Magic, but not vice versa. The only closest thing we have to prove that are statements from characters that uses the word "probably" (in regards to Wild Magic being able to match or resist the effects of WCIs) and makes assumptions that has never been confirmed, as well as never actually tested WCIs on Wild Magic or vice versa (if someone states that something would work on a subject, but has never tested such, then it would only be hypothesis that has never been tested or confirmed), thus those characters' words would have no actual merit in regards to proof that Wild Magic is comparable to WCIs.

 

[Gabriel_00]

@FDrybob 1. i know that but featless is featless

2. those aren't even real feats

3."An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

Sidenote: the overlord wiki hints at different WCI having different levels of power and their "mechanics" being what allows you to resist them.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The point is that WCI are on a completely different level to anything else in Overlord, they can't be outliers when the only thing they scale to and are consistently at the level of are themselves, even being shown to ignore inverse immunities. You can't call what is essentially the god-tiers of the verse an outlier to the verse as a whole when their feats exist within a vacuum or no diff absolutely everything else in the setting.

 

[ANDELE3025]

Sidenote: the overlord wiki hints at different WCI having different levels of power and their "mechanics" being what allows you to resist them.

They have "different levels of power" because their intended uses as MMO artifacts were different just as D&D artifacts are different in intended use depending on module thus players rated them as such by it. "The 20" are also called as such because of how players saw their value (aka being able to ping a GM/dev and ask for something), not in their actual stats and/or proportional power for the situation.

e.g. A axe that on every swing can destroy as much land as a mountain sized meteor, but only because it counts damage instances per size of the target thus being meh against small normal enemies is not somehow suddenly a axe that cant destroy that much land (and consequently let the environment/after effects of the m 20 earthqake do the damage to the enemies instead). Also it doesnt mean the axe has no other effects or attributes.

Not that any of the WCI stuff is required in this talk (especially if one assumes Ainz has his guild staff along) since Aqua literally has no way to survive for long enough to draw out the circle for sacred turn undead to have even a tiny % roll chance to cower/stun Ainz with it for long enough for her chip damage to kill him since she couldnt deal with weaker undead she faced either (that are ontop usually both weakened and not resisting due to not actually doing undead things or getting a nuke a day over their face and not allowed to attack).

 

[FDrybob]

That's not what decides a "real" feat. The world item feats are all directly mentioned, and never contradicted. Therefore, they are accepted. Just because those feats didn't happen during the events of the story doesn't mean they are invalidated. Once again, they cannot be outliers since they are in a class of their own. There's no reason to compare them to anything else in Overlord, so they are not outliers. The weakest world item will still protect you from the effects of even the strongest world items. They grant 'Protection of the World', which is the same for each item. Their individual power is irrelevant here; we're talking about the resistances they grant.

 

[Ragazz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KmgAomopjw

 

[Gabriel_00]

Saying that WCI are stronger than aqua therefore Ainz reisists her actually disproves the argument that hax doesn't scale to tier.

Player with the world champion class can resist WCI and they still lose in a fight against three level 100 player

And accepting that diferent WCI have diferent levels of power would just mean that they are tied to a game mechanic and not actual power(wich actually would make lots of sense considering the power structure of the verse) and Ainz would have reguular resistances acording to his tier.

 

[Gabriel_00]

"while atomic Destruction and Time Stop are strong abilities for a Wall level character, they are frequently available to much higher-tiered characters. The same applies to Reality Warping, Soul Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, and so on. Having such abilities alone will not necessarily guarantee victory unless they have feats on such a scale that they can prove effective even against opponents with equal or even superior statistics to the user."

also, this combined with the resistance page proves my point that a powerfull enough attack would bypass the resistances of the oponent, and even if we went with the "mechanics" arguments aqua has bypassed soul resistance and resistance to EE.

 

[DeathNoodles]

"while atomic Destruction and Time Stop are strong abilities for a Wall level character, they are frequently available to much higher-tiered characters. The same applies to Reality Warping, Soul Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, and so on. Having such abilities alone will not necessarily guarantee victory unless they have feats on such a scale that they can prove effective even against opponents with equal or even superior statistics to the user."

also, this combined with the resistance page proves my point that a powerfull enough attack would bypass the resistances of the oponent, and even if we went with the "mechanics" arguments aqua has bypassed soul resistance and resistance to EE.

Link

You see that the link to that thread right there? That is a prime example of a Low 2-C character being stomped by a 9-B character via hax. Despite being a Low 2-C character, that character couldn't do anything to get past the resistances to hax abilities used by the 9-B character, and the 9-B character's own brand of hax abilities. That shows that even with the tier difference, the Low 2-C character still got stomped due to hax.

The fact that that thread was accepted as a stomp in the 9-B character's favour, and by the mods/staff at that, proves that hax and hax resistances aren't dependent by tier. It's dependent by mechanics. Again, hax isn't dependent by tier/AP unless there's a dimensional difference between them (which requires the lower tier character to have proof of feats of affecting characters with such a dimensional gap), which isn't the case for this thread.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Saying that WCI are stronger than aqua therefore Ainz reisists her actually disproves the argument that hax doesn't scale to tier.

Player with the world champion class can resist WCI and they still lose in a fight against three level 100 player

And accepting that diferent WCI have diferent levels of power would just mean that they are tied to a game mechanic and not actual power(wich actually would make lots of sense considering the power structure of the verse) and Ainz would have reguular resistances acording to his tier.

Aqua does not show feats of being able to bypass something like WCI hax resistances (such as Resistance Negation, which she doesn't have in her profile, and which Ainz already has resistance to such), nor does she have any resistances to such effects in her profile. There's also the fact that Aqua doesn't even have a WCI, nor does she have the protection granted by the World Champion Class (which also gives its user Protection of the World status), so your point is moot for Aqua (who isn't even an Overlord character). And the World Champion Class player still being able to lose to a level 100 player is due to physical attacks being used against them or hax abilities they haven't been shown to resist, not from the hax abilities they have shown to resist.

 

[Gabriel_00]

@DeathNoodles, your proof that hax doesn't scale to tier is a 9-B character stomping a Low 2-C character using tier 1 hax?

Bypassing a resistance and negating it are different things, negating a resistance is what TGOALID does, what i mean in bypassing a resistance is that she overpowered the resistances, both Wiz and Vanir have resistance to soul manipulation and her soul hax is still stupidly effective against them.

What does being an Overlord character or having a WCI has to do with the discussion this argument was very NLFish.

Also, your argument contradicts FDrybob's argument, one of you is wrong.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@DeathNoodles, your proof that hax doesn't scale to tier is a 9-B character stomping a Low 2-C character using tier 1 hax?

Bypassing a resistance and negating it are different things, negating a resistance is what TGOALID does, what i mean in bypassing a resistance is that she overpowered the resistances, both Wiz and Vanir have resistance to soul manipulation and her soul hax is still stupidly effective against them.

What does being an Overlord character or having a WCI has to do with the discussion this argument was very NLFish.

Also, your argument contradicts FDrybob's argument, one of you is wrong.

That 9-B character may have 1-B hax, but neither Ainz or Aqua have a dimensional tier difference between each other, so there are no feats explicitly required for either of them to showcase that their hax or hax resistances would need to work higher-dimensional entities. In this case, there is no proof needed to showcase that Ainz's hax resistances isn't effective against Aqua, because there is no dimensional difference between them. That still doesn't change the fact that the character is Tier 9-B, so you saying that a higher tier character can bypass an another character's dura-negating hax resistances through sheer AP is an invalid point from the very start.

And how good is the soul resistances of Wiz and Vanir, exactly? How many volumes of souls does the the soul-hax they resisted can affect? Because even if we decide to scale Soul Manipulation by sheer amount of souls affected at once (like Mind Manipulation by sheer amount of minds affected at once. And sheer amount of minds/souls affected isn't AP, it's just the mechanics of the hax like I've mentioned), I have not seen any impressive amounts of souls being affected based on Wiz's or Vanir's profile for their soul resistances. So unless you're saying that Wiz or Vanir can resist soul hax that can affect millions of souls (which is a feat Ainz has), there's no reason to assume that Ainz can't resist Aqua's hax through the mechanics of the sheer amounts of souls affected. And no, AP isn't a factor for bypassing resistances to dura-negating hax abilities as that's not how it works, so stop repeating that point over and over like a broken record. It's honestly getting repetitive facing that same argument (which isn't valid for dura-negating hax and resistances to such) again and again. Also, there is no way to scale potency of Existence Erasure outside of the mechanics of how it erases stuff (such as erasing the tatget's body, mind, soul, etc.), so trying to scale AP to that dura-negating hax (and resistances to it) is also pointless as a character literally can't get erased from existence any "harder" than that.

Just like how it seems NLF to assume Aqua can bypass the resistances granted to Ainz by possessing a WCI? If anything, it's more NLF to assume that Aqua can bypass (or, by your words, "overpower") such resistances when she doesn't even have resistance negation listed in her profile (as well as the fact that, using your own logic, World Class Items and the protection it grants are far above Aqua in tier).

I don't exactly know what you mean when my arguments contradicts FDrhbob's arguments, but I honestly don't care much at this point. You can insist that resistances to durability-negating hax abilities can by overpowered by an another same type of hax ability through the higher-tiered character's sheer AP (rather than mechanics) all you want, but I would be here to debunk all of that in this thread.

 

[Bonesdrowy]

Saying that WCI are stronger than aqua therefore Ainz reisists her actually disproves the argument that hax doesn't scale to tier.
Player with the world champion class can resist WCI and they still lose in a fight against three level 100 player

And accepting that diferent WCI have diferent levels of power would just mean that they are tied to a game mechanic and not actual power(wich actually would make lots of sense considering the power structure of the verse) and Ainz would have reguular resistances acording to his tier.

Where did you find that a World Champion can resist a WCI? The wiki? Cause I checked and it doesn't explicitly say this nor does it provide a source of where this is provided. Do know that the wiki also mix in stuff from the Web Novel (which isn't canon anymore therefore irrelevant).

Even if they did, I don't know why that would support your argument since its not rhat uncommon for fictional characters to have a high resistance to exotic effects like EE but still have the durability of a regular human. And no Ainz wouldn't have regular resistances, you would need better evidence than "its game mechanics!!!!"

 

[DeathNoodles]

Where did you find that a World Champion can resist a WCI? The wiki? Cause I checked and it doesn't explicitly say this nor does it provide a source of where this is provided. Do know that the wiki also mix in stuff from the Web Novel (which isn't canon anymore therefore irrelevant).

Even if they did, I don't know why that would support your argument since its not rhat uncommon for fictional characters to have a high resistance to exotic effects like EE but still have the durability of a regular human. And no Ainz wouldn't have regular resistances, you would need better evidence than "its game mechanics!!!!"

Ironically, the "game mechanics" argument is already pretty iffy when those same characters with their video game characters "became real" and gained more realistic qualities to their abilities (summoning undead from corpses would just make the corpse turn into dark liquid-like substance that forms into the undead rather than just the undead appearing in the place of the corpse like it was in the YGGDRASIL game, Wish Upon A Star spell altering reality to grant the user's wish rather than choosing from over 200 options to gain the chosen effects like in the YGGDRASIL video game, etc.). I'm not even sure why that should even be used as an argument in the first place.

 

[FDrybob]

Exactly. Why does it matter if it's game mechanics if the game world was turned into a real world without anything losing its functionality?

 

[InfiniteSped]

This still going?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

This matchup should be banned from versus

 

[Moritzva]

God, why is this still going? Didn't Ainz win a millennia ago, for extremely obvious reasons?

(Deathhax >>> whatever Aqua does)

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I tried to tell gaberial this argument wouldn't end, I tried to tell everyone to skip the circular argument and put it to a vote but some people didn't want to listen...

 

[Ugarik]

God, why is this still going? Didn't Ainz win a millennia ago, for extremely obvious reasons?

(Deathhax >>> whatever Aqua does)

It was 5-7. It wasn't concluded