Above-All-Others and The One Above All

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't understand what the big discussion here really is. All Grant Morrison said was that whenever a supreme being is portrayed in DC Comics, it's either the Judeo-Christian God, or Jack Kirby's Source, but he is saying he had another idea, depicting the canvas itself as God.

As for TOAA, I already said it. Two keys in its profile.

 

[Antvasima]

What about deleting The Writer and (if it is necessary) adjusting the OAA profile to avoid presenting it as a similar author amalgam?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No to deleting the Writer. I don't understand what the problem with his profile is, it is very self-explanatory and an integral part of Grant Morrison's cosmology.

As for OAA, just give it two keys.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

@Just According to Keikaku

Sounds like a concession accepted.

 

[Hykuu]

"I don't think that Grant Morrison's interview statement slightly implying that the Presence, the Overvoid, and the Source are the same being is enough evidence to say they are. He actually doesn't even say they are, he says different beings in DC have different things that they believe to be akin to a monotheistic God, the Monitors believing the Overvoid, the New Gods believing the Source, and the humans believing the Presence. They're not only typically portrayed as different beings, as well as the evidence for them being weak [I.e., the one of the Over-Monitor saying the Source is the "Prime Monitor". Monitor-Mind the Overvoid has never been referred to as the Prime Monitor, only the Primal Monitor, which Prime and Primal mean two very different things."


I can't tell if this post was meant to be sarcastic due to how faulty it is

Firstly, Yes, The Overvoid was stated to be The Overmonitor in FC. Which already debunks where you are going with this but sure.

He doesn't directly say that, if you look at this scan, he quite literally refers to the Presence or the Source as "God" and then quite literally says that the Void itself is God, which clearly shows the notion that all 3 beings are meant to be the same, singular entity. God.

You'd have to prove that the term "Prime" and "Primal" are referring to entirely different entities here as nothing suggests it, and Dax novu himself was already referred to as the "Proto Monitor" which would automatically disclude him from being the one referred to. This scan still stands, The Monitors are referring to the Overmonitor and The Source being the same.

Now, Here is where I really think you messed up with.


"There is also the comic where the Spectre goes into the Source and gives the implication that the Source is God, but that is moreover because the Spectre's narrative at the time is that he is travelling pantheons to learn the nature of God, and this was the New Gods' interpretation of God]. "

He wasn't trying to learn the nature of God, He was simply trying to find God as he was missing from heaven, hell and purgatory. He quite literally states the fact that he thinks that the Source is a aspect of Michael, which obviously wouldn't be something he would question if he is trying to learn about God's nature. I'd also like to add how he asks the Source where God is which already implies he isn't aware of God being the Source.

In that same comic he literally got the power of God from the Source itself, which already debunks whatever you are trying to prove here.

"They also consistently are portrayed as having different levels of power. The Source is a very down to Earth source of power, being fully harnessed by beings such as those who wield the Quintessence"

There is literally nothing which suggests this in any comic, The Quintessence themselves were already stomped by the spectre, Emperor Joker, Unbound Spectre durings days of vengeance, etc.

" Mister Miracle in Death of the New Gods "

Using MM in Death of the New Gods is extremely faulty, firstly, in that comic we know that all of it was merely the ploy of the Source itself. When he gave Orion the Soulfire amp with a mere thought, and literally implies directly he intended for SF darkseid to "beat" him in this scan. And This was clearly a mere avatar of the Source,As the true Source itself exists beyond the boundaries of the entire cosmology and the source wall, a formless, boundless infinity.

" Highfather becoming the Source after dying "

This has been currently retconned in Shazam, Darkseid Wars, Where when any God dies, they merely go to the Source to be reincarnated, and there are literally only 2 instances of what you said being stated in Comics, one of them comes from a old ass takion comic aswell. The Other being a superman illogical fest.

" and the several times Darkseid threatened the Source and even fought it. "

Firstly, The Classic Darkseid True Form feats have been retconned to having no true form and only exist as living ideas in FC (I don't need to show the scan as you already know what I am talking about.) |There is also the fact that Darkseid himself has been imprisoned in the source wall before]], and him having to use avatars and a shitton of prep equipment to break out.

There is also the fact that The Unbound Spectre who merged with the Logoz, which is a mere part of God, Wascapable of killing Darkseid on Apokolips, and you already have said that Darkseid On Apokolips is the true form of Darkseid regardless, so you'd be commiting mala fides by trying to refute this specific point. This is also the same Spectre who couldn't comprehend the Source.

>Maggedon You mean the guy who got beat by Superman (after superman absorbed the supposed power of anti suns he had, so much for someone beyond the source, and was getting harmed by beings way below 1-A.

true form brainiac never went beyond the source, he just went beyond the source wall which was supposed to represnt the barrier between universes in that story (shown by him stating he broke into the multiverse when he went beyond the wall and how this interpretation was already shown in SBP comics.)

'the examples are endless" funny you bring up the term "endless" as dream's realm is where every single God is born (and he is obviously below the source.)

"The Presence is always superior in stories, often portrayed as even being able to hold the Source in his hand. Beings who deal with it and threaten it are never on his level, really."

The Presence is God, God is meant to be above all, I don't even need to explain how "no shit" this point is, and no, he was never portrayed to be able to hold the Source, When Chronos broke into heaven and wanted to get the power of the Source, he said that it is the power of the presence, which I again don't have to explain.

The Overvoid encompasses the source within it but that really doesn't even mean much, them being seperated doesn't prove anything, the notion here is that they are aspects of the same being, not that they are the same exact being. Here is a statement from Grant himself confirming this.

There is also the fact in Day of judgement #3, When Wonder Man, Zauriel and friends go to Heaven to reach Jim Corrigan, WM states that he feels "The Source" beyond the gates of heaven, and then Michael explains that' where God is chillin and planning everything.

I really don't care for the Milkman stuff considering the fact the whole story isn't meant to be something taken that seriously and imo shouldn't be used for scaling as

1. It butchers the scaling to a pretty huge point to the point where it can't really be applied

2. Characters like Swamp thing have been shown of being capable of overthrowing the retcon corps so it really isn't that consistent.

3. Milk wars applies lots of shit should be 1-A (which they shouldn't, I think this basically falls under 1.)

 

[Hykuu]

Now that the writer stuff has been debunked, I agree with matthew on making 2 keys for toaa.

 

[Nether_nine]

Above All Others IS The One Above All. It's just that Starlin is twisting the character to suit his own views of the typical "Hurr Durr God isn't Tier 0 anymore cuz i am a Western Left Wing Atheist writer shoehorning a message" non sense. This is the same thing that Mike Carey did. Tier 0s in Comics are at risk of getting depowered due to atheistic writers who are using the established characters for their own personal views which contradicts rather religious comic writers.

The One Above All's power merely now depends and rests depending on the writer that's writing him in the story. Just how Matteis says that the Presence dreamed Creation into existence and in Carey Lore, it is the other way around.

I would suggest multiple keys for Presence and The One Above All by basis on the portrayal by writer. Like Jim Starlin AAO for example, or Mike Carey Presence Key and Matteis Presence Key. As the power level of Presence and TOAA varies by writer.

 

[Hykuu]

Creation didn't exactly dream the presence but k

 

[LightinAnt]

Above All Others IS The One Above All. It's just that Starlin is twisting the character to suit his own views of the typical "Hurr Durr God isn't Omnipotent cuz i am a Western Left Wing Atheist writer shoehorning a message" non sense. This is the same thing that Mike Carey did. Tier 0s in Comics are at risk of getting depowered due to atheistic writers who are using the established characters for their own personal views which contradicts rather religious comic writers.
The One Above All's power merely now depends and rests depending on the writer that's writing him in the story. Just how Matteis says that the Presence dreamed Creation into existence and in Carey Lore, it is the other way around.

I would suggest multiple keys for Presence and The One Above All by basis on the portrayal by writer. Like Jim Starlin AAO for example, or Mike Carey Presence Key and Matteis Presence Key.

I'm against a AAO profile or key, it doesn't add much or help with understanding who TOAA is. Also this "Author interpretation" key is stupid too because comics in themselves are very inconsistent so if we give random keys based on authors we'd literally have to do it for everyone who displayed varied amounts of power

 

[Nether_nine]

Creation didn't exactly dream the presence but k

In Carey's lore, humans shaped Presence into what he is by dreams. I thought this wiki already established that.

But according to Matteis, it is Presence who dreamed Creation into existence and are just part of his mind and dreams. So the answer changes depending on writer.

Comic Tier 0s in fiction flop back and forth because of different writers. If we recognize and call it for what it really is, as opposed to try and rationalize DC's cosmology over and over, we can understand DC's Cosmology better I think.

 

[Antvasima]

No to deleting the Writer. I don't understand what the problem with his profile is, it is very self-explanatory and an integral part of Grant Morrison's cosmology.

As for OAA, just give it two keys.

Well, The Writer seems more like a fanfiction interpretation that is unsupported by the source material.

It has never been referred to as the supreme being of DC Comics. In fact, Grant Morrison's avatar character was killed off by Steven Grant in a Suicide Squad comicbook.

The only thing that we base the profile on on is that the DC multiverse came into existence without its interference, i.e. was drawn on against its will.

In addition, it violates our reality-fiction interaction standards of not allowing supposedly omnipotent author avatar characters of real 10-B people.

As such, all of this feels extremely wrong and unreliable to me, and I would greatly prefer to get rid of the page.

I would also personally prefer to either simply treat the Overvoid as the tier 0 supreme being of DC Comics, or to merge it with The Presence and The Source profiles as different mortal interpretations of a transdual God, if that would work better.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hykuu

So do you agree with me about merging The Overmonitor, The Source, and The Presence profiles?

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: I don't mind two keys for TOAA. I just don't want us to refer to it as an author avatar character.

 

[Antvasima]

In Carey's lore, humans shaped Presence into what he is by dreams. I thought this wiki already established that.

But according to Matteis, it is Presence who dreamed Creation into existence and are just part of his mind and dreams. So the answer changes depending on writer.

Comic Tier 0s in fiction flop back and forth because of different writers. If we recognize and call it for what it really is, as opposed to try and rationalize DC's cosmology over and over, we can understand DC's Cosmology better I think.

That seems to be a good point.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Antvasima

I agree, i don't think The Writer was supposed to be the Supreme being of DC, its more like fan interpretation. I think Overdroid is meant to be the true """"omnipotent""""/Top dog

 

[Hykuu]

@Nether they didnt create the presence, it's referring to how humans percieve God in different ways, like vishnu, yahweh, allah, etc.

This is made clear when the presence was referred to as allah in a issue.

 

[Hykuu]

@Hykuu

So do you agree with me about merging The Overmonitor, The Source, and The Presence profiles?

Sure

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Hykuu
So do you agree with me about merging The Overmonitor, The Source, and The Presence profiles?

Completely disagree with your insistance on this, absolutely nothing supports it. And it' odd that you keep pushing for it. The profiles are good as they are, separate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. I suppose that you have a point about The Overmonitor, The Presence, and The Source remaining separate, but I still think that it sets a terrible precedent to allow self-insert metafiction characters into the tier 0 category.

It's not a self-insert, the profile itself states that and we have had this same conversation in the past.

It's a representation of all writers as a concept.

 

[Antvasima]

How about getting rid of The Writer at least? For the reasons that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, absolutely not. I already explained to you time and time again why it is a perfectly valid profile. Did you forget the multiple past threads where I explained to you why it was okay and how you yourself agreed?

 

[Antvasima]

It's not a self-insert, the profile itself states that and we have had this same conversation in the past.

It's a representation of all writers as a concept.

Well, I am extremely uneasy with allowing author avatar characters as tier 0 entities, especially given that it is basically our own fanfiction interpretation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not an Author Avatar, and it isn't our fanfiction interpretation. Just because a couple random users complaind to you it was you're suddenly bending over backwards because you're afraid of backlash where there is none.

The Overmonitor is the canvas upon which the comic is drawn. The Writer is unarguably that which draws the comic, the connection is there to be made, 1 to 1. I literally haven't seen any staff member or reliable DC fan here complain about this or make it a problem in the years the page existed.

 

[Antvasima]

No, absolutely not. I already explained to you time and time again why it is a perfectly valid profile. Did you forget the multiple past threads where I explained to you why it was okay and how you yourself agreed?

I don't remember them actually. I handle a massive amount of different tasks here, so I tend to forget after a while.

Anyway, I have grown increasingly uneasy with this particular profile.

Two keys for TOAA is fine.

Keeping the Overmonitor, the Presence, and the Source separate is probably fine.

Keeping a tier 0 self-insert character that has never been outright referenced as a supreme being, and requires a fan interpretation to validate it, is far more objectionable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Overmonitor, Presence and Source are completely separate characters, how many times must I prove it to you? Just because people misinterpret a single comment by Grant Morrison on an IGN interview doesn't mean they are the same.

Ant, the Writer isn't a "self-insert character", I already told you that. You continually stating an objectively wrong statement doesn't make it right. The Writer is a representation of all writers, Grant Morrison was just a small representation in the comic itself, not the actual thing.

All story is up for interpretation, fiction doesn't need to tell us everything outright.

 

[Antvasima]

It's not an Author Avatar, and it isn't our fanfiction interpretation. Just because a couple random users complaind to you it was you're suddenly bending over backwards because you're afraid of backlash where there is none.

The Overmonitor is the canvas upon which the comic is drawn. The Writer is unarguably that which draws the comic, the connection is there to be made, 1 to 1. I literally haven't seen any staff member or reliable DC fan here complain about this or make it a problem in the years the page existed.

Well, it violates our regular standards for such cases due to being a self-insert, and it has also never been outright referred to as a supreme being of DC Comics. We even borrow the name from a character that was killed off by Steven Grant in Suicide Squad.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We literally explain in the page and our rules that an exception was made due to how essential the Writer as a concept is for Grant Morrison's cosmology.

The name isn't borrowed from Suicide Squad, he refers to himself as the Writer in the actual Animal Man issue where he appears. And quite seriously, can't you see that the Suicide Squad issue has Grant killing himself. He literally types his own death in the script. And the story is still written by a writer as pointed out there, and even in Animal Man they make it clear that Grant Morrison is just fiction as well, the comic ends with the scene zooming out to show it was all written on a script.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Grant Morrison blatantly stated that the Writer is the entity who forcibly drew all of DC in the vastness of the Overmonitor, it is not fanfictional interpretation, it is a 100% valid thing going off of author statements.

 

[Antvasima]

The Overmonitor, Presence and Source are completely separate characters, how many times must I prove it to you? Just because people misinterpret a single comment by Grant Morrison on an IGN interview doesn't mean they are the same.

Okay, that is fine.

Ant, the Writer isn't a "self-insert character", I already told you that. You continually stating an objectively wrong statement doesn't make it right. The Writer is a representation of all writers, Grant Morrison was just a small representation in the comic itself, not the actual thing.

All story is up for interpretation, fiction doesn't need to tell us everything outright.

It has never been stated as the supreme being of DC Comics, and an amalgam self-insert is still a self-insert. It is inappropriate for us to make up characters as we see fit.

 

[Antvasima]

Grant Morrison blatantly stated that the Writer is the entity who forcibly drew all of DC in the vastness of the Overmonitor, it is not fanfictional interpretation, it is a 100% valid thing going off of author statements.

I don't remember seeing that statement. Can somebody give me additional information?

 

[Antvasima]

We literally explain in the page and our rules that an exception was made due to how essential the Writer as a concept is for Grant Morrison's cosmology.

The name isn't borrowed from Suicide Squad, he refers to himself as the Writer in the actual Animal Man issue where he appears. And quite seriously, can't you see that the Suicide Squad issue has Grant killing himself. He literally types his own death in the script. And the story is still written by a writer as pointed out there, and even in Animal Man they make it clear that Grant Morrison is just fiction as well, the comic ends with the scene zooming out to show it was all written on a script.

The exception in question does not set well with me.

I seem to have misremembered the Suicide Squad issue, but the key point is that The Writer appeared decades before The Overmonitor. Attempting to glue them together seems inappropriate.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid ― as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
	~ Grant Morriso​

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

But that is not the same as saying that The Writer is treated or referenced as an in-universe supreme being, much less with that particular title.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not every single detail about the Cosmology needs to be spoon-fed to you, we can reach this logical conclusion through Grant Morrison's statements, as well as the events of Animal Man and DC's heavily metafictional cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

Animal Man happened around 20 years before Final Crisis. You would have a better case if The Writer had been repeatedly referred to as a supreme being of the verse, but it is generally using a more religious viewpoint.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Writer is a metaphor, Grant Morrison has ALWAYS been metatextual. Even more recently, Milk Wars went ham with the idea .

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am still uneasy with this, for all of the above-mentioned reasons, but won't remove the page without staff approval.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

It has never been stated as the supreme being of DC Comics, and an amalgam self-insert is still a self-insert. It is inappropriate for us to make up characters as we see fit.

Ikr, there's clearly is an insufficient amount of evidence provided for him on his profile to automatically consider him to be the supreme being.

@Matthew "The Overmonitor, Presence and Source are completely separate characters, how many times must I prove it to you? Just because people misinterpret a single comment by Grant Morrison on an IGN interview doesn't mean they are the same"

Grant Morrison stated this very loud & clear for you and I heavily doubt that is misinterpreted at all, and if they are all basically different forms of God & supposed to be rated as Tier 0, then I don't really see any problem merging 3 of their pages together.

 

[Nether_nine]

@Magi

That was a fake tweet I think. I tried to look it up, it doesn't exist.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yep, that's a fake tweet.